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ORIGINAL: lwr
You've defended tooth and nail things completely contradictory to the Bible in this forum, including Latter Rain movements, 'barking like a dog' and 'holy laughter' manifestations, unBiblical 'gifts', and false prophets. And now you're defending a ministry that literally 'grows' false prophets without even Biblically addressing the specific valid concerns that have been raised. The result is that I can't take what you say seriously.

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ORIGINAL: lw9

SD456:

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So many of those websites are written by people who have axes to grind against movements and people that they are uncomfortable with. It is not ALL based on the truth. A small bit of truth gets mixed into and finally completely lost in a huge pile of lies. And with the internet, it grows and multiplies so much faster than ever before. And before you know it, the reputation of a dear brother is destroyed.

Which sites would those be? The only discernment sites I visit are the ones that post direct source material so I can look up the info for myself. They care deeply about God's word, spreading the truth, and publically warning others against the dangers out there.

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First off, this is not a defense of false prophets, but rather a defense that being a prophet does not save you from being in error. Now, on to the scriptures.

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As for the rest, I will respond when I have more time. I don't know everything, and I don't have to... that's the beauty of me being me..

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The proof is in the pudding, as they say. If the fact that there are 500 people in Kansas City, Missouri fasting and praying for 24 hours a day 7 days a week isn't fruit enough that there is something worth taking note of, then I don't know what will be. That is all for now.

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I find it sad, but funny, that almost every time a defender of WOF, modern day Prophets, Latter Rain, etc. comes in to the Theology forums here, they end up accusing those who disagree with them as either 1) spreading gossip, 2) having an axe to grind or 3) being anti-Charismatic/not believing in the Holy Spirit working today.

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Any group can set up prayer rooms, Adam. The proof is not in actions alone, but in what one confesses, teaches, and their adherance to scripture.

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ORIGINAL: SD456

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I find it sad, but funny, that almost every time a defender of WOF, modern day Prophets, Latter Rain, etc. comes in to the Theology forums here, they end up accusing those who disagree with them as either 1) spreading gossip, 2) having an axe to grind or 3) being anti-Charismatic/not believing in the Holy Spirit working today.

Then I guess we shall have to be equally sad. For I see that anytime that something supernatural occurs which some do not understand because it is out of their "box" of experience, then they are very quick to call people heretics and false christians. Being careful to not spread gossip and not listening to those who actually do have axes to grind is not exactly the same thing as calling people anti-christs and heretics. I believe that you have leaped to an entirely different level.

Only God knows the hearts of men and we are commanded to not judge others - meaning we are not to pronounce judgement on them as judge and jury, condemning them as 'guilty', 'going to hell', as only Christ knows that.

And since you are not in authority over Mike bickle and cannot bring any discipline that God might want to ever bring into his life, then the only thing you can do is stir up fear, hate, and gossip against him. I do not believe that God has placed you, or those like you, in the position of prima Grand Inquisitor or that it is on your shoulders to point out all the tares to protect all of us 'poor, ignorant sheep'. But in the end, Jesus shall be the one to judge us all and He will use the exact same measuring rod that we have used on others. Grace or the law, which would you like to be judged by?

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SD456 I have no doubt that you oppose Mormons, right? Would you not agree that they do not worship and teach the one TRUE Christ Jesus? If you are willing to say that, then why are you against people trying to point out other wrongs? Truly, if you really believe what you said in this last post, why are you attacking us who ask questions about IHOP and other groups like WOF and such, and not instead engaging us in rational debate and expressing your views with out malice.

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ORIGINAL: Stephanos

if after doing that I still am in error in your eyes, then I say it does not have anything to do with discussion, or debate, or seeking the truth. Rather it has everything to do with your "If they dont agree they are wrong" mentality.

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ORIGINAL: SD456

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ORIGINAL: Stephanos

if after doing that I still am in error in your eyes, then I say it does not have anything to do with discussion, or debate, or seeking the truth. Rather it has everything to do with your "If they dont agree they are wrong" mentality.

And THERE is the difference between us, dear friend. If we still disagreed, you would call me a lover of heretics a defender of false teachers, a 'deceived one', etc., but I could never say that of you as I see that you truly profess Jesus as your savior and thus are my kinsman in spirit. Hopefully I shall always remember that we all know ONLY in part, and though some may have a different view of doctrine than I, that does not make them a false teacher or heretic. That simply means they have a different understanding of scripture and I would give you the liberty to believe differently in non-essentials.

That different understanding can be for different reasons, not all are because of deception. People who are more mature spiritually than I am will have a far better understanding of some scriptural truths than I. Some people have been given revelation that others have not yet been given, simply because their relationship with Jesus is an older one, a more mature one, or even a closer one. Jesus revealed more things to John than any of the others, and revealed more of himself to John, Peter and James than the others as they were closer to Him than all the other apostles. So Jesus does reveal different things to different people. I may not understand those things, but I will not call them heretics because of it.

As for the age old argument about prophecy, which you seem to base all your other arguments on, the practical application of prophecy is one better debated and discussed amongst those people that actually have the gift of prophecy and who have experienced it instead of those who believe that it is a gift that has ceased.

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ORIGINAL: Stephanos

Do you even read my posts? Or do you simply see that we disagree so you ASSUME you know what I am saying with out even looking to find out if your assumptions. Furthermore, your arrogant belief that only people who have the "gift" of prophecy has the right to talk about prophecy is flawed at best. If we were to take this logic to another topic, only people who agree that women can not be pastors, can talk about women not being pastors. But that is NOT the way it happens. That is not the way discussion works. And it is further proof you have no interest in debating topics, but rather believe that anyone who disagrees with you have no right to talk about the issues.

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ORIGINAL: SD456

Dear Stephanos,
I read your entire post twice before I commented. I'm profusely sorry that I have not communicated clearly and have caused you to misunderstand me. Please forgive me if I have frustrated you. Any have the right to discuss prophecy, but I believe that those who actually have the gift of prophecy will be better able to understand how God speaks to someone, what it looks like, sounds like, feels like, etc. I guess I also do not understand how some people (not necessarily you) who believe the gift has ceased could actually talk about its practical application in our lives since they would believe that it ALL is false.

It is not the discussing of issues that bothers me. It is the false conclusions that so many are quick to come to if someone believes in a doctrine different than themselves. You and I both have the liberty in Christ to wrestle things through and come to complete different conclusions when it comes to prophecy, the gifts, God TV, or any other non-essential item. Because we come to different conclusions does not mean you or I are lovers of false teachers, it means that we, both reasonable people, both bible studiers, both lovers of Jesus, must humbly agree to disagree and realize that we ALL see only in part and we ALL are doing the best we can to follow scriptures that are often not black & white at all.

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So, I'm assuming that you've gotten on their website and have read their doctrinal statements of belief and you have found their doctrinal beliefs to be incorrect and their essential doctrines do not line up with the Christian world's essential doctrines? Because only IF their essential doctrine is incorrect - the trinity, the resurrection of Christ, the nature of God, etc etc, can they then be called heretics.

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Otherwise what you are disagreeing with is simply their understanding of the practical application of prophecy, which, since the bible goes into little to no details on how prophetically gifted people hear from God, it is up to those who have the gift of prophecy to figure out what it all means. That is not a basis for heretical accusations. That is simply a basis for misunderstandings.

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I appreciate what you are saying, Stephanos, and some of what I've written was not directed at you, but at lwr. If she so innocently and honestly wishes to know the truth about these people, as you claim she does, then she would contact IHOP themselves and talk to them. She would read Mike's books or would go to a conference and sit down with some folks there and air out her questions. That is honest searching for the truth.

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ORIGINAL: sue244

You know I think its instersting that IHOP wants to teach people to be prophets and believe that the gift of prophecy is for today, yet it seems like there is this idea on the forum that the gift of discernment is no longer in use today. Anyone that tries to point out erros, is said to be a herresy hunter and told they don't have the wisdom to do that. Do we just forget about the gift of discernment when it comes to things like IHOP since it points out problem areas.
Now my opinion after having read the doctrine statement is that I don't agree with there views on escatology but thats not a big deal for me. But the idea that one can be taught to be a prophet is a problem. I think its instersting that their first doctrinal statement is that the cannon is closed at the 66 books and yet they go on and teach people how to be prophets and teach the idea that a prophet can be wrong. To me that is a contradiction and if they are willing to contridict there writen doctrine statement in their practice on revelation what else do they contradict on in practice. To me its a slippery slope, if you compromise here, then its easier to compromise there.

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ORIGINAL: stateofgrace

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ORIGINAL: lw9

SD456:

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So many of those websites are written by people who have axes to grind against movements and people that they are uncomfortable with. It is not ALL based on the truth. A small bit of truth gets mixed into and finally completely lost in a huge pile of lies. And with the internet, it grows and multiplies so much faster than ever before. And before you know it, the reputation of a dear brother is destroyed.

Which sites would those be? The only discernment sites I visit are the ones that post direct source material so I can look up the info for myself. They care deeply about God's word, spreading the truth, and publically warning others against the dangers out there.

Out of all the discernment sites I know of, I know of only one that I would characterize as being likely someone with an "axe to grind" - and on that particular site, the author has issue with almost every known leader in Christianity. The site author is also a KJV-only heavy Fundamentalist. It's pretty clear where he's coming form.

I know of one other site, that is sometimes linked to by users in the fourms here, where much of the documentation is heavily suspect, and lots of conclusions are made based on questionable documentation. I don't know enough about the site author to even speculate on whether this is because they have an "axe to grind" or that they simply are too prone to believe what they hear/read that gels with their opinion.

That's two sites out of likely two dozen. The other sites tend to be well-researched, not into gossip and inuendo and name-calling.

I find it sad, but funny, that almost every time a defender of WOF, modern day Prophets, Latter Rain, etc. comes in to the Theology forums here, they end up accusing those who disagree with them as either 1) spreading gossip, 2) having an axe to grind or 3) being anti-Charismatic/not believing in the Holy Spirit working today.

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Simple Prophecy – speaking forth simple impressions which God brings to mind through words of knowledge (i.e. specific information regarding the physical/ spiritual/emotional status of someone). Occasionally, this includes receiving "visions" (mental pictures) or dreams.
He who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. (1 Cor. 14:3)

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Some have experiences which indicate that they have been sovereignly chosen by God (miraculous birth, angelic visitation, etc). The stature necessary for the office of prophet includes gifts (accurate revelation); fruit or mature character and wisdom (understanding of God's corporate purpose and ways)

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Also interesting to note is that I can Google the church I go to (and am employed by) and/or my pastor, who is pretty well known, and who sticks strictly to exegetically teaching the Word of God, and nothing negative or controversial comes up. I can also Google a number of other churches/pastors (also well known) who teach in the same manner as mine and also nothing. Why can't we say the same about Bickle/IHop? Oh, I know, the numerous ministries that have exposed his false teaching are all just out to get him and his church. Sometimes where there is smoke there is definitely fire!

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Sue, IHOP does not teach someone how to be a prophet. I do think that Adam mentioned that if I remember correctly. Just like any other gift one learns how to walk in and minister in that gift. It is a process of learning how to walk in your gifting. There is a difference between being a prophet and operating in the prophetic.

Secondly, many people can actually prophesy. Remember Paul "wished" that everyone would do so. It is listening to the Spirit of God and speaking what He asks us to speak. It is about as simple as that. The challenge lies in the fact that many people have not learned how to be still and listen to the Spirit of God. So part of the process is learning how to hear God for ones self.

This gift is different from the gift of discern. Apples and oranges, if you will. It is similiar to how there is a gift of discernment of spirits and then there is the discernment that we can all have because we have the Spirit of God living in us. One is a gift, one is something available to all believers. The prophetic is similiar in this way.

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I have just finished reading this thread from beginning to end. I don't know all there is to know about IHOP and I know next to nothing about the other groups that have been disparraged here. However, I have gone to a "One Thing" conference by IHOP and I have read one of Mike Bickle's books. I also visited the prayer room for about an hour as I was passing through Kansas City this summer. I won't answer about their doctrine because I have not looked closely into it HOWEVER I can tell you that the HEARTS of these people are towards God. Whether or not they have everything right or not, I don't know. But I do know that they are passionate about Jesus Christ and want to know Him more and more intimately. Everything I have seen shows me that not only do they want this for themselves but for every other Christian as well. When a person is hungry for God, God will ensure that person is filled and if that person has false doctrine, God will correct him. Anyone who is passionate about Jesus and who makes Jesus Sovereign Lord of his life will not stay in error (if he is in error) for long. No one who asks for a fish will be given a snake. There is no question that IHOP and its leaders are passionate about God and want to serve Jesus in all parts of their lives. That's good enough for me.

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Giving false prophecies and teaching people to become false prophets/prophesiers isn't a simple little 'oops'.

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Do you even read my posts? Or do you simply see that we disagree so you ASSUME you know what I am saying with out even looking to find out if your assumptions.

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The brain stops here, but where does the buck stop? Why distance yourself from the "KC Prophets thing" if there's nothing wrong with it? Because it was no longer marketable?

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Does anyone else find it vastly presumptous to create something called "God TV"?

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I'm not sold on the "leave the humble 24/7 prayer people alone" argument. I've said before everything that could be covered with this thread has not been, and I see what I find when talking with Third Wave/Joyner/Bickle people in person, that the subject always changes to "what's wrong with you?" when questions are asked.

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if their WORDS were truly from God, then there was no error found in their prophecies.

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Question: If Muslims, Buddhists, and Hinduists fast and pray 24/7, does that prove them to be right with God?