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RE: Youth Leader - 12/5/2007 5:50:43 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 934
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
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quote:
1Timothy 2:9
Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
Also note that Paul's definition of modesty was concerned with showing off wealth, not showing skin. The Mediterranean/Greek clothing showed a lot of skin. Modesty is concerned with not drawing attention to yourself and being able to blend into the crowd. A man in an expensive suit is just as immodest as a woman in a bikini.
And yes, Jesse has a valid point. Paul was more concerned with the doing of good works than clothing.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/5/2007 11:06:17 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1704
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quote:
But does a moderately low-cut top or a skirt that is above the knees necessarily mean they are wanting to incite others to lust and sexual thoughts? Absolutely not.
OK, now you are beginning to sound like my teenage son. Absolutely not is the incorrect way to follow up your statement. People, primarily women, use moderate low cut tops and moderat skirts, even pants, all the time to incite others to sexual thoughts. After many years of single living and now having been married for nearly 19 years added with the profesional experience I have gained, I can assure you that most of the time, people are trying to communicate a message to others through their dress.
Having said that and having given some thought to this conversation, it seems you, Jesse, have gotten yourself into a debate on the letter of the law verses the spirit of the law. You seem to understand the spirit of the law, but you also seem to keep pushing for the logical conclusions of the letter of the law. I think you and I would agree that getting caught up in letter of the law thinking regarding fashion leads to legalism. Yet, on the other hand there has to be some standard. Even if we consider ourselves to be spiritually mature, if we run around looking like the world by dressing provocatively, we Are not communicating spiritual maturity to those we come into contact with. If you and I met on the stret and I was wearing a muscle shirt and really short shorts and began talking to you about Jesus, my church, and my relationship with the Lord, wouldn't you be a little befuddled as you walk away saying the picture doesn't match the sound?
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The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/6/2007 11:44:19 AM
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gonzoguy
Posts: 100
Joined: 11/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
But does a moderately low-cut top or a skirt that is above the knees necessarily mean they are wanting to incite others to lust and sexual thoughts? Absolutely not.
OK, now you are beginning to sound like my teenage son. Absolutely not is the incorrect way to follow up your statement.
The "absolutely not" is completely appropriate as it is balanced with the previous "does this necessarily mean..."
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
People, primarily women, use moderate low cut tops and moderat skirts, even pants, all the time to incite others to sexual thoughts.
This assumes that you have an understanding of the motives of a wide range of people. You may want to reconsider before making a statement like that. Further, you may also want to acknowledge that actions can rarely be reduced to a single motive.
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
After many years of single living and now having been married for nearly 19 years added with the profesional experience I have gained, I can assure you that most of the time, people are trying to communicate a message to others through their dress.
As I have previously stated, I do not think that a desire to be attractive is the same as inciting others to lust. Nor do I think a desire to be attractive is bad.
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Having said that and having given some thought to this conversation, it seems you, Jesse, have gotten yourself into a debate on the letter of the law verses the spirit of the law. You seem to understand the spirit of the law, but you also seem to keep pushing for the logical conclusions of the letter of the law. I think you and I would agree that getting caught up in letter of the law thinking regarding fashion leads to legalism. Yet, on the other hand there has to be some standard.
I am not arguing against a standard, per se. I am arguing against a standard that finds its origin in a hyper-conservative, divorced-from-all-things-logical-and-cultural mindset that doesn't consider all the facts and attempts to judge the hearts of others.
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Even if we consider ourselves to be spiritually mature, if we run around looking like the world by dressing provocatively, we Are not communicating spiritual maturity to those we come into contact with.
I would say that "provocative dress" is much more than a short skirt and a halter top. Provocative dress is more than a little cleavage. Provocative dress is more than having the skin above the knee show.
Sorry, but claiming that what has been described is dressing provocatively is a strawman.
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
If you and I met on the stret and I was wearing a muscle shirt and really short shorts and began talking to you about Jesus, my church, and my relationship with the Lord, wouldn't you be a little befuddled as you walk away saying the picture doesn't match the sound?
No, not at all. Let me say that again just so you know I really mean it: not at all. The fact that you think a muscle shirt and short shorts is incompatible with Christianity is troubling to say the least. Christianity is not about dress. Its not about how one looks.
When I used to live in Southern California about 6 months ago I was going to a church there that was the best church I've ever been to. That place had a very strong focus on reaching the community, serving the poor, giving themselves (and their resources) away - with no strings attached. One of their services even met in a night club. It was amazing. And you know what kind of people went there? Previously un-churched. I saw a lot of people with a lot of piercings, tattoos, and all that jazz. And it wasn't just from their previous un-Christian life. People got tattoos and piercings while they went there. The ushers were guys and girls in their 20's who had tattoos. I saw cleavage. I saw *gasp* thighs. I saw guys wearing muscle shirts. And you know what? Thats not what I remember about that church. I remember the way it reached out to people and loved them. The community knows that church not by the crazy, sleazy people who go there, but by their love and their willingness to help others.
So if you ask me if I'm going to judge someone by the clothes they wear or the way they look, the answer is no. No.
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Gonzoguy (Jesse)
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/6/2007 11:55:36 AM
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Ellie-Mae
Posts: 3740
Joined: 4/9/2005
From: The EMPIRE state!
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quote:
I saw a lot of people with a lot of piercings, tattoos, and all that jazz. And it wasn't just from their previous un-Christian life. People got tattoos and piercings while they went there. The ushers were guys and girls in their 20's who had tattoos. I saw cleavage. I saw *gasp* thighs. I saw guys wearing muscle shirts. And you know what? Thats not what I remember about that church.
LOL! sounds like you not only remembered that about that church, but it had left quite an impression on you as well. 
_____________________________
Please do not PM me about this message, discuss it at the water cooler, or include it in your church bulletins. If you have questions, please keep them to yourself. ~Kerrlaw
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292 more miles t
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/6/2007 12:08:18 PM
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gonzoguy
Posts: 100
Joined: 11/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ellie-Mae
quote:
I saw a lot of people with a lot of piercings, tattoos, and all that jazz. And it wasn't just from their previous un-Christian life. People got tattoos and piercings while they went there. The ushers were guys and girls in their 20's who had tattoos. I saw cleavage. I saw *gasp* thighs. I saw guys wearing muscle shirts. And you know what? Thats not what I remember about that church.
LOL! sounds like you not only remembered that about that church, but it had left quite an impression on you as well.
haha...thats not what I meant. I mean, yeah I remember that fact about the church, but thats not what made an impact on me. Thats not what made an impact on the community, you know?
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Gonzoguy (Jesse)
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/6/2007 12:19:24 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 934
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
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I know of churches where you are EXPECTED to get a tattoo. The tattoo marks you visibly as a Christian.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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[Deleted] - 12/6/2007 12:26:23 PM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/6/2007 12:30:17 PM
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gonzoguy
Posts: 100
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deadhead
quote:
When I used to live in Southern California about 6 months ago I was going to a church there that was the best church I've ever been to. That place had a very strong focus on reaching the community, serving the poor, giving themselves (and their resources) away - with no strings attached. One of their services even met in a night club. It was amazing. And you know what kind of people went there? Previously un-churched. I saw a lot of people with a lot of piercings, tattoos, and all that jazz. And it wasn't just from their previous un-Christian life. People got tattoos and piercings while they went there. The ushers were guys and girls in their 20's who had tattoos. I saw cleavage. I saw *gasp* thighs. I saw guys wearing muscle shirts. And you know what? Thats not what I remember about that church. I remember the way it reached out to people and loved them. The community knows that church not by the crazy, sleazy people who go there, but by their love and their willingness to help others.
Was this Bob Beeman's Sanctuary Church? If it was I am jealous dude. I have loved his teachings for yrs. You have several people on here that went to his church in the early days and helped start his goth outreach and punk outreach ministries.
No. It was a place called Rock Harbor. Its only about 10 years old and it was a church plant from Mariner's (if you're familiar with other churches in the area).
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Gonzoguy (Jesse)
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/6/2007 2:04:02 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1704
Joined: 4/8/2005
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quote:
This assumes that you have an understanding of the motives of a wide range of people. You may want to reconsider before making a statement like that. Further, you may also want to acknowledge that actions can rarely be reduced to a single motive.
Jesse, as I stated, I've sorked in the field of corrections for 16 years. Nine years of this as a probation officer, five years of which was supervising a sex offender caseload. Part of my duties were to particiapate in sex offender treatment with the clients. Prior to becomeing a Christian, I lived a drug abusing, filanderaing lifestyle. I have an understanding of the motives of a wide range of people. I have been a student of humanity for quite some time now.
Actions are often linked to a single motive. When examining the behavior of an opportunistic sex offender, behaviors that can be rather easily dismissed by most have revealed themselves to be planned out behaviors, situations, etc., designed to get a victim in a position to drop their gaurd on sexual boundaries.
quote:
As I have previously stated, I do not think that a desire to be attractive is the same as inciting others to lust. Nor do I think a desire to be attractive is bad.
There is nothing wrong with desiring to be attractive. Yet, there are some fashions labled as designs to be atractive, but deeper down they are designed to incite lust. While I thikn I understand what you are trying to get at, your desire to dismiss judgment altogether seems to be placing you on a very frail tight rope.
quote:
I am not arguing against a standard, per se. I am arguing against a standard that finds its origin in a hyper-conservative, divorced-from-all-things-logical-and-cultural mindset that doesn't consider all the facts and attempts to judge the hearts of others.
Who said anything about judging hearts? You seem to be implying that the standard ought to be whatever makes you feel good. We tried the if it feels good do it approach to living in the 60's. 70's and 80's. It taught us that we need to have stricter standards in behavior. At least some of us old fogies have learned this. And, how are to consider all the facts when all we have are general impressions? Regarding the OP, as I said before, if I were to come to youth group and find one of the female leaders wearing a halter top, I would not be happy. And, I know that as I drove my teenage son home as well as his friends, I would hear remarks about how "she" looked, how she bounced around, etc., etc. And, I know that I would begin to see comments on all the kids MySpace pages.
As a parent, I am not going to judge the girls character. I would be making some judgment on her poor choice. I would also talk to her as well as have the youth pastor speak to her. In fact, I have had to address a female intern that worked for us one summer about her fashion choices. She liked to wear halter tops and low cut blouses. I had to remind her that she was working in a professional setting and that much of the clientele she was working with was sex offenders.
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I would say that "provocative dress" is much more than a short skirt and a halter top. Provocative dress is more than a little cleavage. Provocative dress is more than having the skin above the knee show.
Sorry, but claiming that what has been described is dressing provocatively is a strawman.
That's how you view things. Nothing wrong with that. Yet, there are many others that get aroused by other things you would not consider provocative at all. While you may not like the analogy I used of me in a muscle shirt and tight shorts, if you saw me and my arctic white skin, you'd understand what I was getting at. Seeing you lived in Southern California explains a little of where your worldview comes from. I grew up in Southern Cal and all my family still lives there.
The most friendly church I attended was in Fairbanks, Alaska. Fashion was not a major concern there either. In the wintger time, everyone shows up to a formal gathering in the Carhardts and bunny boots. In the summer, it's not a whole lot different than California. But, it's not the fashion statements that made them loving, it was people who loved the Lord and loved their neighbors, all their neighbbors, as themselves.
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So if you ask me if I'm going to judge someone by the clothes they wear or the way they look, the answer is no. No.
But, you are going to be making judgments. Maybe not about the clothes they wear, but other things about their character. As you respond to this you are making judgments about me and my responses to you. It has nothing to do with the clothes I'm wearing. You are picking and choosing, making judgment, in how to respond to me. Clothing is only a small part of the equation. We have to remember that when we represent an organization: a company, a government, a church, whatever, our clothing communicates something to others about whom or what we represent.
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The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/6/2007 3:36:43 PM
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gonzoguy
Posts: 100
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Jesse, as I stated, I've sorked in the field of corrections for 16 years. Nine years of this as a probation officer, five years of which was supervising a sex offender caseload. Part of my duties were to particiapate in sex offender treatment with the clients.
How does working in a field where you are dealing with people who are constantly getting themselves into trouble give you an idea of the motives of an otherwise good and healthy person? You have insight into the motives of those who already have impure motives and act on desires that are in direct contradiction to both the law and bible.
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Prior to becomeing a Christian, I lived a drug abusing, filanderaing lifestyle. I have an understanding of the motives of a wide range of people. I have been a student of humanity for quite some time now.
Again, your particular lifestyle is only representative of those who also led that lifestyle. This doesn't apply.
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Actions are often linked to a single motive.
I'd like to see some more information on how you came to this conclusion.
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
When examining the behavior of an opportunistic sex offender, behaviors that can be rather easily dismissed by most have revealed themselves to be planned out behaviors, situations, etc., designed to get a victim in a position to drop their gaurd on sexual boundaries.
Would you say that sex-offenders are really just after sex? There is nothing more going on there? No desire to have power? No desire for acceptance? No desire for anything else?
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
There is nothing wrong with desiring to be attractive. Yet, there are some fashions labled as designs to be atractive, but deeper down they are designed to incite lust.
I don't disagree with this, but I also don't classify halter tops and skirts as being designed with this in mind.
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
While I thikn I understand what you are trying to get at, your desire to dismiss judgment altogether seems to be placing you on a very frail tight rope.
How so?
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ORIGINAL: zamdad
Who said anything about judging hearts?
Several people have already. See: "spiritually immature".
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ORIGINAL: zamdad
You seem to be implying that the standard ought to be whatever makes you feel good.
Not at all. On the same token, the standard shouldn't be whatever makes the other person feel good. Should it?
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
And, how are to consider all the facts when all we have are general impressions? Regarding the OP, as I said before, if I were to come to youth group and find one of the female leaders wearing a halter top, I would not be happy.
I'm sorry you feel that way.
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ORIGINAL: zamdad
And, I know that as I drove my teenage son home as well as his friends, I would hear remarks about how "she" looked, how she bounced around, etc., etc. And, I know that I would begin to see comments on all the kids MySpace pages.
The same can be said for tight clothing. Do you see it as appropriate to limit that as well? Should women be restricted to wearing loose-fitting clothing so that your kid won't be attracted to her?
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
As a parent, I am not going to judge the girls character. I would be making some judgment on her poor choice. I would also talk to her as well as have the youth pastor speak to her. In fact, I have had to address a female intern that worked for us one summer about her fashion choices. She liked to wear halter tops and low cut blouses. I had to remind her that she was working in a professional setting and that much of the clientele she was working with was sex offenders.
This is a much better response. I would be fine if it were stated as "hey, we need to be professional".
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ORIGINAL: zamdad
That's how you view things. Nothing wrong with that. Yet, there are many others that get aroused by other things you would not consider provocative at all.
We cannot live to please everybody! At some point we need to decide what is appropriate for ourselves (within reason, of course). If others disagree, let them. But it is wrong to force your convictions on someone else under the guise of modesty. This is only further proof that modesty is relative (again, within reason)!
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ORIGINAL: zamdad
While you may not like the analogy I used of me in a muscle shirt and tight shorts, if you saw me and my arctic white skin, you'd understand what I was getting at. Seeing you lived in Southern California explains a little of where your worldview comes from. I grew up in Southern Cal and all my family still lives there.
So my point about sub-cultures stands. What is modest in Southern California is not going to be considered modest elsewhere.
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ORIGINAL: zamdad
But, you are going to be making judgments.
I might. But the judgments I might make will be qualitatively different from some of what I've seen from others here.
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ORIGINAL: zamdad
As you respond to this you are making judgments about me and my responses to you. It has nothing to do with the clothes I'm wearing. You are picking and choosing, making judgment, in how to respond to me.
Yes, and it is based off of a conversation with you, to learn where you stand, to challenge your assertions. And, I respect you for sticking it out with me.
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ORIGINAL: zamdad
Clothing is only a small part of the equation. We have to remember that when we represent an organization: a company, a government, a church, whatever, our clothing communicates something to others about whom or what we represent.
And while that may be true, what particular pieces of clothing communicate is just as much in the eye of the beholder as it is with the person wearing the clothing. As I said, it is neither healthy nor responsible to dress or to act with the intention of never offending someone.
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Gonzoguy (Jesse)
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/6/2007 5:19:13 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1704
Joined: 4/8/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
How does working in a field where you are dealing with people who are constantly getting themselves into trouble give you an idea of the motives of an otherwise good and healthy person? You have insight into the motives of those who already have impure motives and act on desires that are in direct contradiction to both the law and bible.
Okay, you're making some assumptions about how I come to the conclusions I do. Working in the corrections field can encompass a broad spectrum. But, for the five years I supervised the sex offender caseload, I got to know clients more intimately than I wanted to. It begins with interviewing them, their victim(s), their family, friends, employer, etc and writing a presentence report for the court telling the court who the person is. After sentencing, if they are not sent to prison, they are orderde to participate in an outpatient sex offender treatment program. As I said, I co-facilitated treatment. I then monitored clients in the community and made sure they were living out the things they said they were doing in treatment. Passing a polygraph about sexual history is required to pass treatment. They are not constantly getting in trouble. That's one of your assumptions. Many, if not most, offenders have multiple victims that they have not been caught for. This comes out in the polygraph. These additional victims have to be addressed. So, yes, I have gained some insight into the motives of people.
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Would you say that sex-offenders are really just after sex? There is nothing more going on there? No desire to have power? No desire for acceptance? No desire for anything else?
Quite often, yes. Always, no. Sometimes it is about power and control. But more often than not, it's about sex. The cultural messages they recieve are telling them that everything about sex is good and that's what everyone else is after too. There are a lot of mixed signals.
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I don't disagree with this, but I also don't classify halter tops and skirts as being designed with this in mind.
Again, this is your opinion. You seem to be implying that your opinion should set the standard.
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This is a much better response. I would be fine if it were stated as "hey, we need to be professional".
Next time I have a similar situation, I will remember to cite Gonzo's Rules of Fashion.
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But it is wrong to force your convictions on someone else under the guise of modesty. This is only further proof that modesty is relative (again, within reason)!
Back atcha! Are you not trying to force your convictions on others? Are you not seeking to redefine what modesty is? While we should not shove morality down the throat of another, we should not be subject to having immorality shoved down our throats.
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So my point about sub-cultures stands. What is modest in Southern California is not going to be considered modest elsewhere.
Not really. There are sub cultures within subcultures. Ultimately we have to respect the larger culture instead of continually giving way to the latest fad and the subculture that develops as a result.
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I might. But the judgments I might make will be qualitatively different from some of what I've seen from others here.
Praise the Lord. Perhaps we'll finally have someone in the morality and ethics folder that is not another pharisee in disguise.
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And while that may be true, what particular pieces of clothing communicate is just as much in the eye of the beholder as it is with the person wearing the clothing. As I said, it is neither healthy nor responsible to dress or to act with the intention of never offending someone.
Communication is a two way street. It takes a sender and a reciever. Ultimately, we have to be responsible for the mesage we send.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/6/2007 5:43:13 PM
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gonzoguy
Posts: 100
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Okay, you're making some assumptions about how I come to the conclusions I do. Working in the corrections field can encompass a broad spectrum. But, for the five years I supervised the sex offender caseload, I got to know clients more intimately than I wanted to. It begins with interviewing them, their victim(s), their family, friends, employer, etc and writing a presentence report for the court telling the court who the person is. After sentencing, if they are not sent to prison, they are orderde to participate in an outpatient sex offender treatment program. As I said, I co-facilitated treatment. I then monitored clients in the community and made sure they were living out the things they said they were doing in treatment. Passing a polygraph about sexual history is required to pass treatment. They are not constantly getting in trouble. That's one of your assumptions. Many, if not most, offenders have multiple victims that they have not been caught for. This comes out in the polygraph. These additional victims have to be addressed. So, yes, I have gained some insight into the motives of people.
No, you've gained insights into the motives of sex offenders. Regardless, my comment was directed to your thing about being a probation officer. My apologies if I misunderstood the nature of your work.
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ORIGINAL: zamdad
Quite often, yes. Always, no. Sometimes it is about power and control. But more often than not, it's about sex. The cultural messages they recieve are telling them that everything about sex is good and that's what everyone else is after too. There are a lot of mixed signals.
Okay. I don't know much first-hand about sex offenders, just what I've heard - thanks for the insight.
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ORIGINAL: zamdad
Again, this is your opinion. You seem to be implying that your opinion should set the standard.
No, quite the opposite. I'm saying there isn't a set standard. Do I have opinions? Yeah. Of course. Does that mean that everyone shares them? No. I realize that. But apparently others don't. Others (and this is a statement made from observing threads other than this) think that their standard is the only one. I've even seen people say (not so explicitly) that the way we do Christianity in America is the way it should be done everywhere. Its that mindset that I am trying to dispose of.
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ORIGINAL: zamdad
Next time I have a similar situation, I will remember to cite Gonzo's Rules of Fashion.
My book will be out in time for Christmas.
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ORIGINAL: zamdad
Back atcha! Are you not trying to force your convictions on others?
No. I'm trying to say that your convictions aren't the same as someone elses. I have tried my best to leave my convictions about what is and is not modest out of this.
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ORIGINAL: zamdad
Are you not seeking to redefine what modesty is?
This assumes that modesty has always had a set definition. Thats what I'm trying to say - it hasn't! It changes, it ebbs and flows.
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ORIGINAL: zamdad
While we should not shove morality down the throat of another, we should not be subject to having immorality shoved down our throats.
If it weren't for the mods, I'd say something much more harsh than I'm about to: thats bull. A person who's fashion that you deem as immodest is not having immorality shoved down you're throat. That's ridiculous.
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ORIGINAL: zamdad
Not really. There are sub cultures within subcultures. Ultimately we have to respect the larger culture instead of continually giving way to the latest fad and the subculture that develops as a result.
What is the "larger culture"? Who's larger culture? Who defines what is modest and what is not?
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ORIGINAL: zamdad
Praise the Lord. Perhaps we'll finally have someone in the morality and ethics folder that is not another pharisee in disguise.
Right. I'M the pharisee - in disguise nonetheless. That's golden.
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ORIGINAL: zamdad
Communication is a two way street. It takes a sender and a reciever. Ultimately, we have to be responsible for the mesage we send.
On the same note, we have to be responsible not to assume what message is being sent.
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Gonzoguy (Jesse)
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/6/2007 6:12:56 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 8798
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
Status: online
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Attention Folks:
We are getting off the topic of whether this is an appropriate clothing choice for a youth leader. Not the general public. We are talking about a youth leader.
Further off topic posts about modesty in general will be deleted.
Do not send me PM's about this.
Do not discuss this in the public forums.
If you have any questions please contact community@salemwebnetwork.com
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/6/2007 6:18:01 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 8798
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
Status: online
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Now back to topic.
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ORIGINAL: zamdad
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Communication is a two way street. It takes a sender and a reciever. Ultimately, we have to be responsible for the mesage we send.
On the same note, we have to be responsible not to assume what message is being sent.
We are talking about a youth leader here, presumably in her roll as a youth leader: IOW: this is how she is showing up at youth events: not in the privacy of her home. When you are a leader in your church you are in a position to be an example and have an influence over people. This is especially true of someone working with youth. Someone in such a roll should be going out of their way to be modest. If there is the slightest chance that their clothes may be viewed as immodest it should not be worn. If a youth leader thinks that an outfit of a halter top and miniskirt fits this description I would question their ability to be a good example to the youth of the church.
I sincerely doubt that most people in this world: even non Christians would look at someone in a halter top and mini skirt and say "there is a person who is trying to appear modest" Therefor, I think it is safe to say it is inappropriate dress for a youth leader.
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L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/6/2007 6:24:06 PM
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gonzoguy
Posts: 100
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
We are talking about a youth leader here, presumably in her roll as a youth leader: IOW: this is how she is showing up at youth events: not in the privacy of her home. When you are a leader in your church you are in a position to be an example and have an influence over people. This is especially true of someone working with youth. Someone in such a roll should be going out of their way to be modest.
Why? Why should anyone be going out of their way to be someone they are not simply because they are in church?
quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
If there is the slightest chance that their clothes may be viewed as immodest it should not be worn.
I disagree completely. Again, you cannot please everybody.
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ORIGINAL: zoebob
If a youth leader thinks that an outfit of a halter top and miniskirt fits this description I would question their ability to be a good example to the youth of the church.
And you would still think this is the case if the rest of their life was evident of a complete devotion to God?
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ORIGINAL: zoebob
I sincerely doubt that most people in this world: even non Christians would look at someone in a halter top and mini skirt and say "there is a person who is trying to appear modest" Therefor, I think it is safe to say it is inappropriate dress for a youth leader.
You must not know many (younger) non-Christians, then.
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Gonzoguy (Jesse)
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/6/2007 6:42:01 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2078
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gonzoguy
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ORIGINAL: figmentPez
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ORIGINAL: gonzoguy
Really? Do you think that the church should be monitoring clothing? Is THAT what the church should be about?
1Timothy 2:9
Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
Apparently Paul thought that the Church should be monitoring the dress of those in the church. Why is this admonition to modesty acceptable, but admonishing a theoretical youth leader unacceptable?
There are many things to consider. First, Paul was talking to people who had been fully assimilated into their culture. What the culture deemed immodest, it only seems logical, Paul would deem immodest. However, things are much different today. The church culture is far separated/different from the culture at large (for better or worse) so we cannot simply apply the verse across the board.
Second, Paul's admonishment contains several, very specific, things. Like no braiding of hair or wearing jewelry. Further, Paul goes on to give several other admonishments about women - most notably that he doesn't permit them to speak in church. I don't suppose you would hold the same views regarding braided hair, jewelry, and speaking in church? It seems, then, that Paul saw the value and importance of culture.
Finally, Paul follows the section that you quoted with these words, "but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God." It seems that good deeds are what Paul cares about, not necessarily clothing. And I would argue, that this is what today's church should be concerned about as well.
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ORIGINAL: DougHorton
Also note that Paul's definition of modesty was concerned with showing off wealth, not showing skin. The Mediterranean/Greek clothing showed a lot of skin. Modesty is concerned with not drawing attention to yourself and being able to blend into the crowd. A man in an expensive suit is just as immodest as a woman in a bikini.
And yes, Jesse has a valid point. Paul was more concerned with the doing of good works than clothing.
First, you've both completely missed the point of my post, and my quotation of scripture. Gonzoguy asked if the Church should be monitoring clothing. Scripture shows that there are times when the Church has a vested interest in what Christians are wearing. It doesn't matter if we're talking about a different sort of modesty. It doesn't matter if there are cultural differences to consider. It doesn't matter how specific Paul's instructions were, or if he made other instructions that are difficult to understand (and off-topic for this thread). The simple fact of the matter is that there are times when the clothing worn by Christians sends a message that it should not, and the Church needs to be concerned about the message being sent by Christians.
From your posts, I would have to come to the conclusion that DougHorton thinks that showing off wealth is unacceptable, but that showing off sexuality is acceptable. And I would have to conclude that Gonzoguy thinks that Paul's message was specific enough to apply only to the culture he was writing to, and cannot in any way be applied to any other time or place. Hopefully I'm wrong in my conclusions about both of these.
Let us look at the reality. There are ways in which clothing can be immodest. We must agree on that point, or this discussion is pointless. If someone can show up to lead wearing nothing but a lace thong and fishnet stockings, and the Church have no reason to find that objectionable, then what is the point of arguing over skirt length? If there is no line anywhere, ever, then what is the point of this thread? Can we agree that there are immodest forms of dress? That's my point. Not that this passages tells us that "skirts more than 2 inches above the knee are forbidden by God", but that Christians are called to modest dress, be that in modest displays of wealth or other forms of modesty. The call to modesty is not only for certain cultures, but all Christians are called to modest dress. If the exact definition of modest dress is influenced by local culture is another issue, my post was to show that there are lines, somewhere. That's not something that I've seen acknowledged in this thread yet.
As for the argument that "good deeds are what Paul cares about, not necessarily clothing." That's absurd. If Paul thought that clothing wouldn't matter if enough good deeds were done, he wouldn't have even bothered to talk about clothing. The women Paul was writing to were trying to get attention with displays of wealth, and Paul said that any attention they get should be on account of their good deeds in Christ, not on account of the money they have. This applies perfectly to other forms of modesty as well. Young women should be seeking to get attention based on their good deeds in Christ, not based on the amount of skin they show.
Once we acknowledge that Christians are called to modest dress, then we can start arguing about how to define what is modest and what is not. If there is no call to modesty at all, then there is no need to argue about how short a skirt must be to be "mini".
EDIT: Hopefully this post won't be considered to be a post on "modesty in general" because it is an important point that most, if not all, of those arguing that mini-skirts and halter tops are acceptable have not even acknowledged that any sort of dress would be inappropriate for a youth leader.
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I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/6/2007 6:45:44 PM
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gonzoguy
Posts: 100
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
Can we agree that there are immodest forms of dress?
Yes.
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Gonzoguy (Jesse)
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/6/2007 6:49:12 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2078
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gonzoguy
quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
Can we agree that there are immodest forms of dress?
Yes.
And does the Church have the responsibility to make sure that those in leadership are not dressing immodestly?
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/6/2007 6:52:44 PM
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gonzoguy
Posts: 100
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
And does the Church have the responsibility to make sure that those in leadership are not dressing immodestly?
Hmm...okay, I'll concede that they have a interest in that. Hopefully, though, the Church isn't dedicating too much time to this.
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Gonzoguy (Jesse)
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/6/2007 7:00:32 PM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2078
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gonzoguy
quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
And does the Church have the responsibility to make sure that those in leadership are not dressing immodestly?
Hmm...okay, I'll concede that they have a interest in that. Hopefully, though, the Church isn't dedicating too much time to this.
So, I won't see any more arguments claiming that the Church is "judging" people by their clothing, or saying that the Church has no business in telling leaders what to wear?
I too hope that the Church doesn't have to dedicate too much time to this, but my hope is that leaders will do what is right without having to be chastised first.
If we agree that are standards, and that leaders should be held to that standard, then we need to see if we can agree on any standards.
Now, having led youth activies myself, I know that being a youth leader can be a pretty physically demanding job. Keeping up with the youth often involves sitting in a circle of chairs (with no table to hide legs), sitting on the floor, running, jumping and other activities. If a skirt were short enough that it would be impossible to do these activities without repeatedly revealing underwear to those around, would you consider that skirt to be immodest?
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/6/2007 8:42:20 PM
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Kath
Posts: 17141
Joined: 2/28/2005
Status: offline
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gonzoguy
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/6/2007 10:06:26 PM
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Conundrum
Posts: 107
Status: offline
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Great posts, figmentpez.
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RE: Youth Leader - 12/9/2007 12:58:09 AM
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