RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him at all?
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 12/28/2007 7:00:24 PM
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Sammy_S
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quote:
There's nothing wrong with being angry at God,
Blasphemy!
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 12/28/2007 7:09:57 PM
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agapetos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
quote:
There's nothing wrong with being angry at God,
Blasphemy!
I had a friend who got angry at God because despite wanting to work, she'd been unable to for more than 5 years. She'd received and excellent degree and was constantly filling in application forms but always rejected.
So she finally got angry enough at God to tell Him her true feelings on the matter. She told me that after she felt much more at peace with her situation than she had in a long time. Within a week she was offered 3 jobs.
God wants us to be open and honest with Him. How can we be open and honest if we can't include our feelings of anger too?
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The loose cannon inside the ship is far more dangerous
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 12/28/2007 7:17:39 PM
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propitiated4
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
quote:
There's nothing wrong with being angry at God,
Blasphemy!
I had a friend who got angry at God because despite wanting to work, she'd been unable to for more than 5 years. She'd received and excellent degree and was constantly filling in application forms but always rejected.
So she finally got angry enough at God to tell Him her true feelings on the matter. She told me that after she felt much more at peace with her situation than she had in a long time. Within a week she was offered 3 jobs.
God wants us to be open and honest with Him. How can we be open and honest if we can't include our feelings of anger too?
God knows our heart is angry before we confess it to Him!! Is confession about your friend's peace or is confession about humility and repentance. You can't be angry and humble at the same time...
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Romans 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 12/28/2007 7:28:57 PM
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agapetos
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You can't be angry and humble at the same time... I agree, which is why you need to deal with the anger and then let go (and I said in post 25 that it was wrong to stay angry).
She told God she was angry, she let go of her anger, she was able to move on and worship and praise Him and know that He was dealing with the situation. Maybe the situation would have been the same if she hadn't expressed her anger, we'll never know.
For myself it taught me something that's stayed with me for many years ~ that we need to be honest with God. I wasn't a Christian when she told me what she'd done and I was amazed that she could express her feelings. Looking back on my Christian life though and some of the events that have happened in it, I can be grateful for her sharing that experience with me. It's allowed me to be more honest with God about how I feel (and I'm not good at expressing my feelings) and as a result I've not been so afraid to speak with Him about.
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The loose cannon inside the ship is far more dangerous
than the storm that rages outside the ship.
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 12/28/2007 10:08:56 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 460
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quote:
I had a friend who got angry at God because despite wanting to work, she'd been unable to for more than 5 years. She'd received and excellent degree and was constantly filling in application forms but always rejected.
So she finally got angry enough at God to tell Him her true feelings on the matter. She told me that after she felt much more at peace with her situation than she had in a long time. Within a week she was offered 3 jobs.
God wants us to be open and honest with Him. How can we be open and honest if we can't include our feelings of anger too?
It is not the anger that caused God to work in her life(Financially) but it is the fact that she poured her soul out to God.I have been experienced something like that before,I was fustrated about my walk with the lord and I reached out to him with faith that was not of my own but a gift from him.The Lord revealed himself to me that night,it wasnt because I was "angry" at God.
Christians should be fustrated and angry about tough situations but it is quite wrong to blame God.Do we not believe that the Lord is in control and is doing all things that will lead to good for those who love him?
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 12/29/2007 7:50:15 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy
but you have to understand that God's love towards unbelievers are benevolent.
All love is benevolent love - even the love that we humans show to each other. All love is merciful and compassionate love. The benevolent love that God shows to unbelievers is the same benevolent love He shows to all.
quote:
while neglecting the wrath, justice, and holiness of God. SD456, you are really missing a large portion of who God is when you dismiss wrath and justice so flippantly.
I do not dismiss God's justice, yet I understand that His mercy triumphs over His judgment. God is not 'wrath', so I am definately not missing a large part of who God is, as that is not who He is. God is love, God is light, and God is a consuming fire, which pertains to His holiness and how sin is burned up in His presence. God is not wrath. There will come a moment in history when wrath will be shown to all those, when Jesus returns, who have continued in rebellion, but God is now extending grace, mercy and love to this lost world. The world needs to know that God is love, something which the church has a very difficult time in extending to people. It is God's love and kindness that leads to repentence, it is not God's anger and wrath that lead people there, but there are fear mongerers who do wish to make people so afraid of God and hell that they chase them toward the altar, so to speak. I don't believe those kinds of salvations lead people to understand grace, it only leads them to a religion of works and fear.
quote:
it leaves me "confused" as to whom he is saved from if he does not believe in the wrath of God?
By the way, I'm a she. I'm saved from being separated from God for eternity, which is the ultimate death. The wrath of God is reserved for the end of days when Jesus returns and judges the earth - the world is not under God's wrath right now, it is under God's extended hand of mercy and grace. There will be a time that wrath comes, and it will be quick and hard, but that time has not yet come.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 12/29/2007 8:00:35 PM >
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 12/29/2007 8:10:30 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
quote:
There's nothing wrong with being angry at God,
Blasphemy!
I had a friend who got angry at God because despite wanting to work, she'd been unable to for more than 5 years. She'd received and excellent degree and was constantly filling in application forms but always rejected.
So she finally got angry enough at God to tell Him her true feelings on the matter. She told me that after she felt much more at peace with her situation than she had in a long time. Within a week she was offered 3 jobs.
God wants us to be open and honest with Him. How can we be open and honest if we can't include our feelings of anger too?
Yes, I agree. We must be honest with God, He wants us to. Only an honest man can get set free or healed from things. Our loving Father can handle honest anger and disappointment. I've been thinking about what you said and I think, too, that someone who hates God is actually showing that he believes in God. Why would you hate something in which you don't believe exists? It is a huge emotion, the opposite of love, and without love would not exist. So in that respect, it is better to hate God than not believe in Him.
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MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 12/30/2007 12:35:53 AM
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Sammy_S
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quote:
All love is benevolent love - even the love that we humans show to each other. All love is merciful and compassionate love. The benevolent love that God shows to unbelievers is the same benevolent love He shows to all.
God's love towards sinners is that though they do not acknowledge him as Lord and the fact that Psalms 7:11 says that God is angry with them every day he is Loving enough towards them to not destroy them at the moment of sin.
That is love,God has no other reason to not destroy mankind other than the fact that he is Love.God's love towards true christians is the same as well but christians enjoy the benefits of the fruits of the spirit and the eternal Love of God,which is to be with our Lord.
quote:
I do not dismiss God's justice, yet I understand that His mercy triumphs over His judgment.
Do not twist the word Of God.If God's mercy triuphms over judgement then all should and would go to heaven.If you had read that passage in context or did even a brief study of it you would no that it speaks of how christians and not God.
James 2:8-13
"8 If you really fulfill the royal law, according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well. 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. 11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," said also, "Do not kill." If you do not commit adultery but do kill, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment."
quote:
God is love, God is light, and God is a consuming fire, which pertains to His holiness and how sin is burned up in His presence.
Wow,Sin is burnt up in the redeeming death and ressurection of Christ.If sin burnt up in the presence of God then all who came close to Jesus would have been made clean of their sins.Will all sinners who are to be judged by God be made clean because of the presence of God?
quote:
The world needs to know that God is love, something which the church has a very difficult time in extending to people. It is God's love and kindness that leads to repentence, it is not God's anger and wrath that lead people there, but there are fear mongerers who do wish to make people so afraid of God and hell that they chase them toward the altar, so to speak. I don't believe those kinds of salvations lead people to understand grace, it only leads them to a religion of works and fear.
The love of God is indescribable and beyond my understanding but so is the wrath Of God.The Love of God is tught tirelessly by people,but the wrath of the almighty is not preached.it is not the Love of God that saves,it is not even the wrath of God that saves!It is the death and ressurection of christ that saves,but the true Gospel is wrath and Love,I go fsr enough to say that the wrath of God is an act of his love.Everything God does represents all of his attributes.
quote:
By the way, I'm a she. I'm saved from being separated from God for eternity, which is the ultimate death
I am sorry for not making that mistake,i forgot to say he/she.If you are saved,you were
already separated from God prior to salvation.What you are saved from is God himself,you are saved from the justice of God which would be to destroy you.
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 12/30/2007 12:45:34 AM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 460
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quote:
I've been thinking about what you said and I think, too, that someone who hates God is actually showing that he believes in God. Why would you hate something in which you don't believe exists? It is a huge emotion, the opposite of love, and without love would not exist. So in that respect, it is better to hate God than not believe in Him.
Belief in God means absolutely nothing.There are sinners and there are christians.It is better to be saved than not to be saved.How is it better to hate God/believe in God?How does that profit any man?
They all do not love the lord and that alone is enough for them to be equally punished by the Lord,so tell me how belief in God matters?That is quite horrible.
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 12/30/2007 2:03:21 AM
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SD456
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I'm not sure what translation you are looking at, but the translations I've looked at don't translate Ps 7:11 in the same way yours does and it speaks instead at how God hates sin, not the sinner. And put in the correct context of what the Psalmist is asking for is that God would come against his enemies for him and destroy them. But Jesus brings us a different way to pray. We are not to pray for God to destroy our enemies, we are to pray for God to bless them though they may curse us. We are not to have the same heart toward our enemies that the Psalmist had, we are to have the heart that Jesus had, a heart of love for sinners.
NAS
Psalms 7:11
God is a righteous judge, And a God who has indignation every day.
NIV
Psalms 7:11
God is a righteous judge, a God who expresses his wrath every day.
quote:
he is Loving enough towards them to not destroy them at the moment of sin.
And He is loving enough toward them, toward all of us, to send His own dear son to die in our place. That is a wondrous love that reaches out to even those who are far away from Him.
quote:
Do not twist the word Of God. If God's mercy triuphms over judgement then all should and would go to heaven.
I will not get into an argument about predestination with you. God's mercy triumphs over judgement in that it was His merciful love that sent His son to us. That is a great triumph. And it is His mercy that is now extended to this lost world that needs Him so desperately.
quote:
it is not the Love of God that saves,it is not even the wrath of God that saves! It is the death and ressurection of christ that saves,
And that is the ULTIMATE love. There is no greater love than a man should lay down his life for a friend. It is not wrath that gave up a son, it was love. I think you are referring to God's justice. God's justice is not the same as wrath. God is love, He is NOT wrath, though wrath has been reserved for all those who die in their rebellion toward Him. It is they who have chose this path sadly.
quote:
If you are saved, you were already separated from God prior to salvation. What you are saved from is God himself,you are saved from the justice of God which would be to destroy you.
I'm not understanding what you are saying as you seem to be saying things backwards. Separation from God is eternal death, THAT is what we are saved from. We are brought into union with God through Christ. I'm am not saved from God Himself, I'm saved from being separated from this loving God. God's mercy triumphs over judgement because of His great love for us, His creation. It is His love, not His wrath, that caused Him to create the plan of sending His son for us.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 12/30/2007 2:27:30 AM >
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 12/30/2007 2:22:48 AM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
quote:
I've been thinking about what you said and I think, too, that someone who hates God is actually showing that he believes in God. Why would you hate something in which you don't believe exists? It is a huge emotion, the opposite of love, and without love would not exist. So in that respect, it is better to hate God than not believe in Him.
Belief in God means absolutely nothing.There are sinners and there are christians.It is better to be saved than not to be saved.How is it better to hate God/believe in God?How does that profit any man?
They all do not love the lord and that alone is enough for them to be equally punished by the Lord,so tell me how belief in God matters?That is quite horrible.
I think we can find a good example of this in Saul of Tarsus. He felt great hatred toward Jesus and when he was saved this huge passion he had for hatred was turned into an equal passion for love. He loved Jesus even more than he once hated him. Someone who has a capacity to hate that much surely has the capacity to love in equal measure. I think God sees that in people, the capacity to feel and be passionate for or against something. Some of the best Jesus followers are those who were passionately against Him at some point in their lives.
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 12/30/2007 6:15:44 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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To answer the OP's question.......... who cares? Either way you end up in hell.
Now, from a HUMAN persepctive, I would much rather talk to someone who doesn't believe he exists, because then there is an opportunity to reach them using logic or w/e. On the other hand, if someone hates God, they know He is real and they don't like Him... which makes them 50+ times harder to talk to about Him.
IMO
Adam
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 12/30/2007 3:18:37 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 460
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From: Brampton,Ontario
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quote:
I'm not sure what translation you are looking at, but the translations I've looked at don't translate Ps 7:11 in the same way yours does and it speaks instead at how God hates sin, not the sinner. And put in the correct context of what the Psalmist is asking for is that God would come against his enemies for him and destroy them. But Jesus brings us a different way to pray. We are not to pray for God to destroy our enemies, we are to pray for God to bless them though they may curse us. We are not to have the same heart toward our enemies that the Psalmist had, we are to have the heart that Jesus had, a heart of love for sinners.
NAS
Psalms 7:11
God is a righteous judge, And a God who has indignation every day.
NIV
Psalms 7:11
God is a righteous judge, a God who expresses his wrath every day.
Search the original meaning,and you will find what I say to be true.The King James and New King James says that God is angry with the wicked everyday.The psalmist were inspired to write what they said.It's the same as saying that we should not apply anything from Paul,Peter,Moses and so on unless it is Jesus.God is not different from who he was in the OT.
quote:
I think you are referring to God's justice. God's justice is not the same as wrath.
If a cold blooded murderer was let go by a Judge because the Judge wanted to be "loving" toward him,would not the judge himself be unjust?
If God is just,he must punish all sinners.God's justice was satisfied towards chrisitans in Christ but the sinners await the justice of God which is for him to punish them.
Proverbs 17:15 (New King James Version)
15 He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just,
Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD.
There is so much I would touch on what you wrote but if you deny what the very word of God says the nI do not wish to waste my time.
Without wrath,there is no mercy.
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 12/31/2007 3:22:10 AM
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SD456
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quote:
If a cold blooded murderer was let go by a Judge because the Judge wanted to be "loving" toward him,would not the judge himself be unjust?
If God is just,he must punish all sinners.God's justice was satisfied towards chrisitans in Christ but the sinners await the justice of God which is for him to punish them.
Yes, God punishes sinners because the law requires it and it is justice. He does not punish them because His wrath requires it. There is a difference. You are speaking of three different things, justice, wrath and love. Wrath is how the final punishment will be handed to the rebellious when Jesus returns. It is God's justice that requires this and His mercy that gives us this time of Grace since Jesus' death and resurrection, extending mercy to all who would call on christ's name.
As for looking at the King james Version, the New American Standard is known by most to be more accurate than other translations, so I feel confidant in that translation of Psalms, and the NIV quotes it the same.
Here are other translations, which also differ with the King james, so I think maybe the Ayes have it. The words 'with the wicked' were actually added by a few translators and is not in the original text, most transaltors did not do this:
Douay-Rheims Bible
God is a just judge, strong and patient: is he angry every day?
Revised Standard
God is a righteous judge, and a God who has indignation every day.
Holman Christian Standard
God is a righteous judge, and a God who executes justice every day.
The Complete Jewish Bible
God is a righteous judge, a God whose anger is present every day.
The Darby Translation
God is a righteous judge, and a God who is indignant all the day.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 12/31/2007 3:47:34 AM >
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 12/31/2007 5:12:35 PM
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BlackCapnHarlock
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I've been angry at GOD, but I've never hated him. I have really have not liked some of the things he's allowed to happen or hasn't done in my life.
Most recently the death of my son. Stillborn . . was alive one day and died the next, tried to revive him but nope he wasn't coming back. I felt him move,heard his heart beat, he could have made it. . . I prayed hard, hard, before during and after the pregnancy . . . lived sin free (as much as man could) gave it my all, believed with every bit of my being and GOD didn't hear my prayer.
GOD has worked and works miracles in my life all the time, and this one time he didn't. Shocked the mess out of me and I was angry as fire at him.
HOwever, he loved me and still loves me, and I don't hate him, anyone who hates GOD is an enemy of GOD and needs to come to peace with him. Both ignoring and denying GOD and hating GOD are a path of enternal damnation, neither benefits the person who does it.
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Ezekiel 16:6 Eze 16:6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 12/31/2007 10:48:15 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BlackCapnHarlock
I've been angry at GOD, but I've never hated him. I have really have not liked some of the things he's allowed to happen or hasn't done in my life.
Most recently the death of my son. Stillborn . . was alive one day and died the next, tried to revive him but nope he wasn't coming back. I felt him move,heard his heart beat, he could have made it. . . I prayed hard, hard, before during and after the pregnancy . . . lived sin free (as much as man could) gave it my all, believed with every bit of my being and GOD didn't hear my prayer.
GOD has worked and works miracles in my life all the time, and this one time he didn't. Shocked the mess out of me and I was angry as fire at him.
HOwever, he loved me and still loves me, and I don't hate him, anyone who hates GOD is an enemy of GOD and needs to come to peace with him. Both ignoring and denying GOD and hating GOD are a path of enternal damnation, neither benefits the person who does it.
I very much agree. Neither benefits us.
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 1/4/2008 11:59:25 PM
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Christs Apprentice
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God would rather we do neither; not believing in Him is to hate Him, so I'd say He hates both the same. To hate God is simply to disobey Him, whether that disobedience is in acknowleding that He excists and still disobeying, or refusing to acknowlege His excistance makes little difference... all men are without excuse and one thing is certain, both will send us to Hell. But, this does brings to mind a passage that touches on a similar topic- "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." 2 Peter 2:20-21, so God sees someone who has had a relationship with Him and falls away as a greater transgressor than one who has never had a relationship with Him. But again, both send you to Hell, so it makes little difference, either we serve God or we don't, either we love Him or hate Him. In God's eyes it's black and white.
Hope that helps.
< Message edited by Christs Apprentice -- 1/5/2008 12:22:45 AM >
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"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
"...Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." 2 Timothy 2:19e
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 3/17/2008 8:21:13 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1wayquote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
One day there will be wrath, but now He is showing mercy. Tell that to Ananias and Sapphira
That was severe mercy. Not necessarily wrath.
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 3/18/2008 3:39:23 AM
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MannaLight
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Greetings! We must acknowledge the instruction of our Lord to The Church of Christ: I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! For it is written that we must remain faithful in love of the Lord Jesus and the Father our God Most High to the end.
quote:
ORIGINAL: fallenstar
Hello All, and God Bless-
I always read and hear about Bible stories where a person loves God, praises God, and would do anything to please the Lord Jesus Christ. But what about people who are angry at God? Of course, God wants everyone to believe he is there, and believe IN him, but there is a difference between the two. If you believe that he is there, you do not worship him and love him, so that would make you Agnostic. If you believe IN Jesus Christ, you love and worship him. And then there are people who don't even believe he is up there.
I have always wanted to ask another Christian if God would rather you hate him, and are aware of his existence, or totally without a doubt think he is'nt there. I don't own a bible or go to church, nor do I have any Christian friends. I have never ever seen this question pop up in a chatroom before, or a blog or even a website! I have been dying to know, would God rather you hate him or not believe in him at all?
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 3/24/2008 1:53:45 PM
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RangerForGod
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I believe God would rather you hate him than not believe. To hate something means that it is there to be loved/hated. If God knows your feelings toward him, than He knows there is still hope for that feeling to change.
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The world of strangers cannot judge me, for they do not know me.
God alone will judge me.
"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him."
-- GK Chesterton
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 3/24/2008 1:58:46 PM
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earthless
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That post reminds me of: http://forums.christianity.com/m_3135062/mpage_1/tm.htm
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 3/27/2008 7:16:53 PM
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SD456
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I still tend to think that God would rather we hate him than not believe in Him at all. You can't 'not' believe in someone that you hate. So people who hate Him are actually believing that He exists.
Saul of Tarsus hated Jesus and then became one of his most passionate followers. I think the level of hate that he had equaled the level of love that he had for Christ after he believed.
Hatred in one sense simply means that's a very passionate person that we are dealing with and God isn't at all afraid of that kind of passion. He's able to turn it around and make them the greates Jesus lover ever.
I've found it much easier to witness to someone who's angry at God and feels hatred toward Him than someone who's an athiest and has no thought for him at all.
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 3/28/2008 4:36:27 PM
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WesP
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quote:
I've found it much easier to witness to someone who's angry at God and feels hatred toward Him than someone who's an athiest and has no thought for him at all.
I think they are both easier than a "lukewarm" Christian. God truly does not like that. Reference the letter to the church of Laodecia in Revelation 2.
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Peace,
Wes
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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RE: Would God rather you hate him or not believe in him... - 3/30/2008 6:26:07 PM
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fallenstar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
BTW,all unbelievers hate God.
Actually, non-believers don't have to hate God. How could you hate somthing that "is'nt real" as an athiest would say?
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