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The Mitchell Report - 12/13/2007 7:21:55 PM
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sojourner9
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So the Mitchell Report is finally out. Not to be confused with the list of 76 names MSNBC released earlier in the day. That list implicated players such as Trot Nixon and Jason Varitek (both professing Christians) as well as Johnny Damon. This just goes to prove the lack of journalistic integrity of the NBC network. This is the same network that told the world that Richard Jewel was the Atlanta Olympics Bomber; when in fact he acted heroically in helping to clear the area. I guess their now motto should be, "We report the news fast, then check for accuracy if we get caught."
But I digress. Roger "The Rocket" Clemens has been juicing since 1999. The Red Sox cut him in '96, when he was in the twilight of his career. If only they had offered him free steroids, he could have won his next three Cy Young awards with the Red Sox. He later helped Andy Petitte with his off season work out regiment. Lo and behold Andy became a juicer too. Some workout. I guess when one did his toe touches, the other did the injection. If you know what I mean.
My question is: These two pitchers as well as Tejada are actual Hall of Fame potential members. Barry Bonds should not get in due to his juice. Should Clemens and Petitte make it, or be disqualified? How about Tejada?
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/13/2007 8:48:17 PM
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Bosco
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If you let them in can they still blackball Jose Canseco and keep him out? His numbers are worthy of the fame but he could hardly get a tryout with a team in an attempt to reach 500hrs. Nobody wanted him on their team at the time. I remember K. Schilling testifing against him without mentioning his name and protecting the ones who were juicing. He basically lied under oath also because you know he knew. I guess the pitchers will say they were just evening the playing field since the hitters were juicing it. To anwser your question I don't know how you could keep Clemons out. He's the best with or without it. Petitte doesn't deserve it and will see about Tejada. Remember when Sammy Sosa came off he was a below average player. But in their defense steroids are needed to help recover from injuries and what about those guys playing in their late thirties and early forties, testosterone levels drops off and you need a boost for other reasons also.
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/13/2007 9:35:30 PM
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Rufas2000
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quote:
Barry Bonds should not get in due to his juice. Should Clemens and Petitte make it, or be disqualified? How about Tejada?
Clemens and the others should be held to the same standards as Bonds. What possible reason could there be to do otherwise? BTW: in my estimation Clemens is no nicer a guy than Bonds. Remember when Clemens tossed a bat at Mike Piazza (albeit a soft toss).
quote:
To anwser your question I don't know how you could keep Clemons out. He's the best with or without it.
As is Bonds, he was a hall of fame player before the juice, his home run numbers were the only thing that got better while he was on the juice and they were high before, just not that high.
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Not to be confused with the list of 76 names MSNBC released earlier in the day. That list implicated players such as Trot Nixon and Jason Varitek (both professing Christians) as well as Johnny Damon.
What list was this? Unless MSNBC said this list was the Mitchell list I don't know why this would be in error. Surely there are players on the 'roids not named in the Mitchell Report.
I'm also glad Mitchell placed the responsibility where it belonged: on the Commisioner and the Players Union along with the players. I just wish it had done so more strongly. Bud Selig and PU head Don Fehr have basically gotten a free ride on this.
< Message edited by Rufas2000 -- 12/13/2007 9:45:15 PM >
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/13/2007 10:02:14 PM
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sojourner9
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quote:
quote:
Not to be confused with the list of 76 names MSNBC released earlier in the day. That list implicated players such as Trot Nixon and Jason Varitek (both professing Christians) as well as Johnny Damon.
What list was this? Unless MSNBC said this list was the Mitchell list I don't know why this would be in error. Surely there are players on the 'roids not named in the Mitchell Report.
WEEI in Boston had a list e-mailed to them around 11:00am. It was attributed to Bloomberg News. Bloomberg denied that it came from them, so WEEI refused to release any of the names that they had received. By the, they were sent the list by three sources that they claimed were credible. However, they refused to run with the story until they could confirm it.
The list that they received was released by MSNBC shortly after they were talking about it. There are names on the list reported by MSNBC that do not appear in the official Mitchell Report. But should I expect anything more from a news outlet that hires Keith Oberland and Chris Mathews.
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/13/2007 11:18:48 PM
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Rufas2000
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Thanks for explaining. Its a shame that the local stations have more crediblity than the 24 hour news networks. I would be better informed in an hour of local news from my awesome NBC local affliate (channel 8 in Tampa) than in 24 hours from MSNBC.
But you do what you can when you have 24 hours to kill and are the bottom feeder in the cable news industry (ratings wise, I'll leave the "quality" aspect for others to discuss) and when it blows up in your face, well look in the mirror to find who's responsible. In fairness though the big boys in cable news don't always get it right either.
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/14/2007 9:28:10 AM
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Go24
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rufas2000
BTW: in my estimation Clemens is no nicer a guy than Bonds. Remember when Clemens tossed a bat at Mike Piazza (albeit a soft toss).
The were talking about this on Mike & Mike this morning, and said that according to the report, Clemens was "shot up" right before that playoff series, and in addition to the bat toss, he also threw 2 extremely dominant games back to back.
Now we know why?
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/14/2007 9:29:37 AM
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Go24
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sojourner9
My question is: These two pitchers as well as Tejada are actual Hall of Fame potential members. Barry Bonds should not get in due to his juice. Should Clemens and Petitte make it, or be disqualified? How about Tejada?
If they're eligible, then shouldn't Pete Rose also be? Cheating is cheating ... and Pete's betting on baseball didn't give him a competitive advantage.
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/14/2007 12:47:29 PM
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uncabeeil
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Nobody on that list should be allowed any kind of honors.They're all liars and cheats, and according my upbringing that makes them lower than the dirt I walk on. None of the records they set should be recognized either.
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/14/2007 2:55:16 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sojourner9
So the Mitchell Report is finally out. Not to be confused with the list of 76 names MSNBC released earlier in the day. That list implicated players such as Trot Nixon and Jason Varitek (both professing Christians)
Andy Petite is a professing Christian as well. That means nothing, unfortunately.
The report alone is not an verdict from a jury. I say innocent until proven guilty.
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/14/2007 5:05:24 PM
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sojourner9
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quote:
Andy Petite is a professing Christian as well.
How can a Christian play for the NY Yankees?
Just Kidding
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/14/2007 8:41:23 PM
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McFatty
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I don't see why everyone thinks all accusations are true these days. The Mitchell Report is not the gospel truth. I'm sure it has errors. Why condemn people who have not been proven guilty? Their records should not be stricken simply because of accusations.
In Roger Clemens' specific case, we shouldn't automatically assume he lied when he denied juicing. Look at the source: a former personal trainer who several pitchers have fired over a short period of time. Perhaps the disgruntled personal trainer is lying?
Innocent until proven guilty people... give someone the benefit of the doubt for once.
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“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/14/2007 9:06:48 PM
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WalkingwithHim2
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Doesn't anyone think it's a little coincidental that NO current Red Sox players are listed in the Mitchell Report when Mitchell works for the Red Sox?
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/14/2007 9:12:04 PM
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McFatty
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Quite right, quite right.
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“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/15/2007 7:06:06 AM
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Rufas2000
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quote:
I don't see why everyone thinks all accusations are true these days. The Mitchell Report is not the gospel truth. I'm sure it has errors. Why condemn people who have not been proven guilty? Their records should not be stricken simply because of accusations.
In Roger Clemens' specific case, we shouldn't automatically assume he lied when he denied juicing. Look at the source: a former personal trainer who several pitchers have fired over a short period of time. Perhaps the disgruntled personal trainer is lying?
Innocent until proven guilty people... give someone the benefit of the doubt for once.
Here is an ESPN article that takes this point further.
Linkage
quote:
Doesn't anyone think it's a little coincidental that NO current Red Sox players are listed in the Mitchell Report when Mitchell works for the Red Sox?
In fairness, Eric Gagne left the Sox a week or so ago. I suspect he was still on the Sox (but expected to leave) when the report was written / being prepared. It does bring up a conflict of interest possiblity though. Are there any other teams with no current members on the report?
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/15/2007 9:23:29 AM
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sojourner9
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There is a lengthy part in the report devoted to e-mails from Theo Epstein (Red Sox GM) to his scouts regarding Gagne and Brandon Donnelly and their suspected use of roids. He was told that those two pitchers (who by the way were on the Red Sox payroll in the 07 season) were most likely steroid users. Yet he pursued them anyway.
Therefore not only were Red Sox players named, their front office was implicated as well. That means two current players (the 07 season being current) and two former players (Clemens and Mo Vaughn) were implicated. There were also other players who had spent time in Beantown in their careers that were named. So you can put to rest the misguided belief that Mitchell overlooked the Red Sox.
This belief comes out of the jealousy of the pitiful Yankee fans. I understand their hurt feelings. After all, the Yankees are a team not of the future, but of the past. Sort of like how the French used to be a world superpower. Now they are just the French. Maybe someday the Yankees will win a World Series. By then the Red Sox may have surpassed the 26 championships that Yankee fans so fondly look back to and remember with such fond nostalgia.
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/15/2007 11:11:03 AM
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Rufas2000
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quote:
This belief comes out of the jealousy of the pitiful Yankee fans. I understand their hurt feelings. After all, the Yankees are a team not of the future, but of the past. Sort of like how the French used to be a world superpower. Now they are just the French. Maybe someday the Yankees will win a World Series. By then the Red Sox may have surpassed the 26 championships that Yankee fans so fondly look back to and remember with such fond nostalgia.
The Yankees are like the French. Wow, that is smack talk. Being a Sox fan I hope you're right but they came within two games of winning the division in a bad year where many things went wrong for them early on. They also have the deepest coffers by far of any team. I'm afraid their coffin will remain unoccupied for quite a while.
quote:
So you can put to rest the misguided belief that Mitchell overlooked the Red Sox.
I don't think he overlooked the Sox but the only way to avoid the conflict of interest questions is to not have someone affliated with one of the teams do the investigation. But why would the powers that be in baseball get this right when they haven't got much else right in over 100 years?
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/15/2007 11:17:39 AM
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mutinywxgirl
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I'm loving the smack talk!!!!! 
Haven't done any research on the Report however - will try to look at it this weekend. But, like others have said, in this country it's innocent until proven guilty. When it becomes guilty until proven innocent, then I think it's time for us all to leave.
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/15/2007 1:39:16 PM
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Rufas2000
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quote:
Years ago there were complaints that the game wasn't exciting enough and MLB adapted some measures to make sure more homeruns were hit. Can't we just say that these players were doing their part to make the game more exciting????
I suspect this was tongue in cheek but some people might actually think that makes sense so here goes:
The measures MLB took weren't physically damaging and perhaps potenially fatal to players as steroids are (well aside from the implicit approval of steroid use by ignoring it). You can say its their choice and thats true but I don't think an 18 year old kid wanting to be a big leaguer should have to take a damaging & dangerous supplement in order to keep up with everyone else.
quote:
As far as I'm concerned, everyone in MLB is using performance-enhancing drugs (yeah I said it!). Yet some people are still much better than others. You still have to have some sort of talent there. A good eye maybe. Steroids don't help you tell strikes from balls
Not sure about everyone but I am sure its more widespread than even The Mitchill Report stated. I agree with the talent part. Steroids do not help you with making contact with the ball, seeing the pitch clearly or directing the hit where the defense isn't. As far as I know all they do is help those older, broken bodies heal, put a few extra MPH on the fastball and turn long fly outs into home runs.
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/15/2007 11:40:27 PM
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McFatty
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For a time, doctor-prescribed steroids were fine so long as they were used as part of a recovery regimen. I don't see why that would be considered cheating.
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“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/16/2007 3:19:05 PM
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cog41
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quote:
put a few extra MPH on the fastball and turn long fly outs into home runs.
Uhmm? Seems like quite a bit of help.
If they were under a Drs care I can buy it. But looking at "most" of the guys in today's game it is obvious they're doing something besides weights and protein.
I just hope the players will be honest with the fans and the league can get this cleaned up.
It's quickly becoming an annoying but distant drum.
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/16/2007 4:31:08 PM
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clag4christ
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quote:
Steroids don't help you tell strikes from balls.
Actually they can. Back during the Congressional hearings into baseball that was brought up, in essence. That the doctors who testified couldn't rule out that steroids helped with eyesight and coordination.
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/16/2007 8:39:33 PM
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Rufas2000
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quote:
Uhmm? Seems like quite a bit of help.
Not really, just turns a very good player into a star. My point being that not any joe off the street could roid up and make it to the majors. Pitchers have to be able to locate the pitch and make it break among other things, hitters have to make contact or how far they can hit the ball becomes irrelevant. And there are only a few hitters so good that they can make their careers as a DH and rarely field.
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RE: The Mitchell Report - 12/17/2007 8:16:37 AM
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Bosco
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quote:
For a time, doctor-prescribed steroids were fine so long as they were used as part of a recovery regimen. I don't see why that would be considered cheating.
I agree with this, the problem is these guys didn't go through their doctor which I think would have been okay also. They choose to go to the black market and were doing I'm sure more than any doctor would prescribe.
quote:
Nobody on that list should be allowed any kind of honors.They're all liars and cheats, and according my upbringing that makes them lower than the dirt I walk on. None of the records they set should be recognized either.
I'd would have to say there are probably guys already in the Hall of Fame who cheated in other ways, corked bats, doctored baseballs, etc.
quote:
How can a Christian play for the NY Yankees?
Just Kidding
Sorry but that's pretty funny, Had to laugh. 
quote:
Doesn't anyone think it's a little coincidental that NO current Red Sox players are listed in the Mitchell Report when Mitchell works for the Red Sox?
Hmmm! Good question. I'm a Reds fan and Willy Mo plays for the Red Sox now, He's a monster, he can hit'm 800 ft. surely he's on something.
Huh... Just kidding Willy oh buddy, Your just a freak!!!
Wish we had you back on the Big Red Machine.
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