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RE: Mormonism? - 1/3/2008 4:12:24 PM
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earthless
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Maybe because the author/originator of both are the same individual.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/3/2008 5:30:50 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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Please bear with me. I don't think we should compare Mormonism to Islam. To be fair, many men and women claim to have sought guidance from God and to have received a special revelation from Him.
"On the 31st of last January the Lord showed me that holiness could never prosper upon sectarian soil encumbered by human creeds and party names, and he gave me a new commission to join holiness and all truth together and build up the apostolic church of the living God." - Daniel S. Warner, founder of the Church of God, Anderson, IN
(I believe I read somewhere that he went into the woods to pray.)
He [Daniel S. Warner] taught in his booklet, What the Church of God Is and What it is Not (Chapter 10), that the call to join various bodies must be of the Antichrist. He wrote, "Therefore the multiplicity of sects, falsely called churches, are not God’s church."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Sidney_Warner
Early in my public labors I was bidden by the Lord, "Write, write the things that are revealed to you." At the time this message came to me, I could not hold my hand steady. My physical condition made it impossible for me to write. But again came the word, "Write the things that are revealed to you." I obeyed; and as the result it was not long before I could write page after page with comparative ease. Who told me what to write? Who steadied my right hand, and made it possible for me to use a pen? — It was the Lord. - Ellen G. White, a founder of Seventh-day Adventism, The Review and Herald (14 June 1906), p. 8
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ellen_G._White
In May 1946, [William Marrion] Branham reported receiving an angelic visitation, commissioning his worldwide ministry of evangelism and faith healing...During the mid 1940s Branham was conducting healing campaigns almost exclusively with Oneness Pentecostal groups...In Durban, South Africa in 1951 he addressed meetings sponsored by the Apostolic Faith Mission, the Assemblies of God, the Pentecostal Holiness Church, and the Full Gospel Church of God.
From the mid 1950s onwards Branham taught that neither Oneness theology nor Trinitarianism were correct, but that God was the same Person in three different offices - in the same way that a husband can also be a father and a grandfather[23]. As he began to speak more openly about doctrine, such as the Godhead and serpent seed, the popularity of his ministry began to decline.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Branham
Instead of comparing one group to another, I suggest comparing the leader's teachings to the Bible.
Acts 17
11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Do you see what I'm saying?
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/3/2008 5:34:20 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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quote:
Do you see what I'm saying?
I do see what you are saying-that all things ought to be compared to the Bible for accuracy, truth, etc. But I do think there is some value in noting the similarities between religions. For no other purpose than to recognize Satan's handiwork.
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Ziva: It is possible. I do not remember all their names.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/3/2008 5:35:31 PM
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JimboFletch
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Unity School of Christianity. I haven't thoght about that cult in years. I think it must have been the forerunner of New Age religion.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/3/2008 5:35:35 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
quote:
Do you see what I'm saying?
I do see what you are saying-that all things ought to be compared to the Bible for accuracy, truth, etc. But I do think there is some value in noting the similarities between religions. For no other purpose than to recognize Satan's handiwork.
So is the appearance of an angel, the sign that Satan is at work?
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/3/2008 5:37:13 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Unity School of Christianity. I haven't thoght about that cult in years. I think it must have been the forerunner of New Age religion.
I deleted that because it seemed to have a different background than the others.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/3/2008 5:41:20 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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quote:
So is the appearance of an angel, the sign that Satan is at work?
Satan CAN appear 'as an angel of light' and any 'angel of light' that appears and contradicts the Bible is certainly not of the HEAVENLY host, that's for sure!
We did not even list all the similarities between the two religions, but the point is that there is a pattern, that these are not the only two instances, and that it is something to be aware of.
There are other things we should know-cultural things. Did you know the Bahai church is an offshoot of Islam? If someone you know is involved in that movement, there are reasons you should know about it.
And then, of course, I'm an academic at heart. I love to find out about things, and have done a lot of reading. Half of my family is LDS so I have studied that. And I have good friends who live in Islamic countries, and so I have studied that. The similarities stood out starkly to me.
_____________________________
Tony: Ziva, did you kill Houdini?
Ziva: It is possible. I do not remember all their names.
My Blog
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/3/2008 5:41:34 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
quote:
Do you see what I'm saying?
I do see what you are saying-that all things ought to be compared to the Bible for accuracy, truth, etc. But I do think there is some value in noting the similarities between religions. For no other purpose than to recognize Satan's handiwork.
So is the appearance of an angel, the sign that Satan is at work?
If the angel's message is contrary to Scripture, to as the apostle Paul said regarding an appearance of an angel of light, is contrary to what has been once delivered for all, then yes.
Holy run on sentence!
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/3/2008 5:54:43 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
quote:
So is the appearance of an angel, the sign that Satan is at work?
Satan CAN appear 'as an angel of light' and any 'angel of light' that appears and contradicts the Bible is certainly not of the HEAVENLY host, that's for sure!
That's the whole point of what I'm saying. It is using the standard of scripture that tells us whether an angel is from God or Satan. An angel appeared to Mary, the mother of Jesus. An angel appeared to the three women at the tomb.
"For all its superficial resemblances to Islam, Mormonism is even farther removed from it than from sectarian Christianity." - Hugh Nibley, “Islam and Mormonism—A Comparison,” Ensign, Mar 1972, 55
quote:
And then, of course, I'm an academic at heart. I love to find out about things, and have done a lot of reading. Half of my family is LDS so I have studied that. And I have good friends who live in Islamic countries, and so I have studied that. The similarities stood out starkly to me.
I was a devout LDS for many years. I, too, enjoy research.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/3/2008 6:49:42 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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Jenny-Fair, I apologize for coming across as competitive. Let's discuss Mormonism in light of Islam. Tell me how you believe they are alike. I'll try to be respectful of your views.
Here is what I see as differences:
The Qur'āan, literally "the recitation"; also called Quran, Koran, and Al-Quran), is the central religious text of Islam. Muslims believe the Qur'an, in its original Arabic, to be the literal word of Islamic God that was revealed to Prophet Muhammad over a period of twenty-three years until his death, and Muslim's believe it to be God's final revelation to humanity.
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php?title=Koran
"I bear witness that there is no God other than Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammed is His messanger."
It should be a genuine belief from one's heart. The witnessing of the Oneness of Allah is the rejection of any form of deity other than Allah, and the witnessing that Muhammad is His Messenger is the acceptance of him being chosen by Allah to convey His message of Islam to all humanity and to deliver it from the darkness of ignorance into the light of belief in, and knowledge of, the Creator.
http://i-keighley.com/the-five-pillars.php#salat
In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), continuous revelation is the principle that God or his divine agents still continue to communicate to mankind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_revelation
"Here then is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to become Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before , you, namely, by going from one small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain the ressurection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings , and to sit in glory. as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power." - Joseph Smith, The King Follett Discourse, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.346-347
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/3/2008 7:05:22 PM
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earthless
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But can't we say the same about the LDS organization? They change core essentials of Mormonism, declare past prophecies as now different or false, etc etc..
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/3/2008 7:30:45 PM
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harvesthoney
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
My ward has black members. One family just sent their son on a mission to Chicago last month. There is also a black missionary here in northern Alabama.
When I was teen in the 60s, white supremists in the South had a fondness for Mormons precisely because blacks were not welcome except as the lowest underlings in LDS theology. It is an untruth to deny that the doctrine originated and was perpetrated by the "infallible" Mormon leadership. It only changed when it appeared the doctrine might give Mormonism another black eye.
Early on JS did ordain a couple of black members with the priesthood. After JS was killed and BY moved the Saints west things must have changed.
I spent my teen years in Montgomery, Alabama. There were no connections at all with white supremist groups.
Mormon leadership is not considered "infallible".
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/3/2008 7:46:02 PM
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harvesthoney
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
The Godmakers and other such garbage.
We try to discuss LDS teachings and your comment is that religion bashing is just wrong.
http://forums.christianity.com/fb.aspx?m=2966181
That makes your leaders/church members wrong, too.
I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” - Joseph Smith
"And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal, uncreated, immaterial, and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" - Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 269
Thus, the main differences between the LDS concept of original sin/guilt and that of mainstream Christians are that we do not believe the guilt associated with Adam's transgression is passed on, we do not believe the spirit in man is tainted by the Fall, and therefore we reject notions of "total depravity." - Barry R. Bickmore, Does the Book of Mormon Teach Mainstream Trinitarianism or Modalism?
McConkie and Bickmore are giving opinions. Mormon Doctine is just a book not LDS Doctrine. I don't agree with much of what McConkie writes and I think he was harsh with some comments. Never heard of Bickmore.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/3/2008 7:47:55 PM
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harvesthoney
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quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
AOF #11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
What a strange teaching. Do you think that God is pleased by men worshiping whatever they desire to bow down to?
Hi Pez!
I don't know. You should ask Him.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/3/2008 7:50:44 PM
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harvesthoney
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dred
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
AOF #8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
I always thought this particular Mormon article of faith to be the most amusing. The biblical languages have been continuously known and studied continuously by many scholars since the time the Bible was written. The Book of Mormon is claimed to have been translated by Joseph Smith who had never before seen the language he translated, there are no manuscripts in that original "language", and he managed this through the use of magic stones which went missing with the gold plates.
And they have the audacity to express skepticism about all the modern scholarly translations of the Bible? I daresay there is some reason to be skeptical about one man translating a language he didn't even claim to know from gold plates which I have no reason to believe ever existed.
~shrug~
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/3/2008 11:30:07 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
The Godmakers and other such garbage.
We try to discuss LDS teachings and your comment is that religion bashing is just wrong.
http://forums.christianity.com/fb.aspx?m=2966181
That makes your leaders/church members wrong, too.
I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” - Joseph Smith
"And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal, uncreated, immaterial, and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" - Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 269
Thus, the main differences between the LDS concept of original sin/guilt and that of mainstream Christians are that we do not believe the guilt associated with Adam's transgression is passed on, we do not believe the spirit in man is tainted by the Fall, and therefore we reject notions of "total depravity." - Barry R. Bickmore, Does the Book of Mormon Teach Mainstream Trinitarianism or Modalism?
McConkie and Bickmore are giving opinions. Mormon Doctine is just a book not LDS Doctrine. I don't agree with much of what McConkie writes and I think he was harsh with some comments. Never heard of Bickmore.
Just opinions, eh? So it matters not what opinions LDS leaders and teachers have? They give talks that you needn't listen to, they prefer to speculate rather than give sound teaching, etc. That's very interesting. Why didn't the LDS church chastise McConkie for giving his book that title?
Tell me about Bickmore's opinion. You obviously disagree with his opinion. So do you endorse the doctrines of original sin and total depravity?
Let's look again at what McConkie said in light of the teachings of LDS prophets and scholars:
"And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal, uncreated, immaterial, and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" - Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 269
Is Christendom apostate according to Mormon belief?
“My object in going to inquire of the Lord,” our young supplicant says, “was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right … —and which I should join.
“I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: ‘they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof’ ” [JS—H 1:18–19].
The simple fact is that had there been no "apostasy," or "falling away," from Christ's original Church, there would have been no need for God to restore the Church through Joseph Smith. In this chapter we will establish the fact that there was, indeed, such an apostasy and describe its history and some of its effects.2 Finally, we will present evidence that a restoration of the gospel was also predicted in the early Church. - Barry Robert Bickmore, Restoring the Ancient Church, Chapter 2
"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels."
- Prophet Joseph Smith , The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60
"After the Apostles and many righteous Church members were killed and other members departed from the truth, the Lord took the priesthood authority and His Church from the earth. Without God’s priesthood authority, the Church no longer functioned as Christ had established it. The ordinances were changed and many plain and simple truths were lost. While many good people and some truth remained, the original Church was lost." - lds.org
When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy. One example is the Great Apostasy, which occurred after the Savior established His Church. After the deaths of the Savior and His Apostles, men corrupted the principles of the gospel and made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances. Because of this widespread apostasy, the Lord withdrew the authority of the priesthood from the earth. This apostasy lasted until Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820 and initiated the restoration of the fulness of the gospel. - lds.org
Is the God of this so-called apostate Christendom mythical according to Mormon belief?
Joseph Smith taught:
“Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization anyhow. All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster.”
(TPJS, p. 372; History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 473-479)
"...before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal, uncreated, immaterial, and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" - McConkie
Do you believe in a God Who is Three-in-One or do you believe that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate beings?
What about the talks presented at General Conferences of the LDS church? Are they merely opinions or do they contain errors because those giving them aren't familiar with official LDS doctrine?
All of our Church conferences are occasions to teach one another the doctrines of the gospel; to testify of the truth and divinity of those things which have come to us by the opening of the heavens; and to counsel together, and with the Lord, as to the things we should all do to fill the full measure of our creation.
We are the servants of the Lord. We have received light and truth and revelation from him. He has commanded us to proclaim his truths and live his laws. And so now, in harmony with his mind and will, and as guided by his Holy Spirit, we give counsel and direction to the Saints and to the world. - Joseph Fielding Smith, “Counsel to the Saints and to the World,” Ensign, July 1972, 27
“For the next six months, your conference edition of the ENSIGN should stand next to your standard works and be referred to frequently. As my dear friend and brother Harold B. Lee said, we should let these conference addresses ‘be the guide to [our] walk and talk during the next six months. These are important matters the Lord sees fit to reveal to this people in this day’ (in Conference Report, Apr. 1946, p. 68).” - Ezra Taft Benson, “‘Come unto Christ, and Be Perfected in Him’,” Ensign, May 1988, 84
(President Ezra Taft Benson, April 3, 1988)
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/4/2008 4:29:52 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
What a strange teaching. Do you think that God is pleased by men worshiping whatever they desire to bow down to?
Hi Pez!
I don't know. You should ask Him.
You don't know. How is it that you can not know?
Exodus 20:1-6
1Then God spoke all these words, saying,
2"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3"You shall have no other gods before Me.
4"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
5"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
6but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Exodus 34:14
--for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God--
Deuteronomy 6:13-15
13"You shall fear only the LORD your God; and you shall worship Him and swear by His name. 14You shall not follow other gods, any of the gods of the peoples who surround you, 15for the LORD your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the LORD your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off the face of the earth."
Matthew 4:10
Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, ' YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"
How can you not know God is displeased when people worship anything besides Him?
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/4/2008 4:37:29 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
I spent my teen years in Montgomery, Alabama. There were no connections at all with white supremist groups.
Cool, just south of Dothan for me. White supremists were fond of Mormons there. I guess we were too Southern to know better.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/4/2008 4:57:50 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1617
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
I spent my teen years in Montgomery, Alabama. There were no connections at all with white supremist groups.
Cool, just south of Dothan for me. White supremists were fond of Mormons there. I guess we were too Southern to know better.
They have a nice mall in Dothan.
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You had a good point! There's just room for both (although possibly not in this thread) 
