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RE: Mormonism? - 9/4/2006 10:24:32 PM
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harvesthoney
Posts: 247
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kmangel
Yes, I agree Christians on this forum already know Christ, but Mormons come to people's homes witnessing whether the person claims to be a Christian or not. They don't accept the Christian's declaration that they know Christ.
Other faiths go door to door spreading their message too. I can't speak for the missionaries in what they accept or don't accept from the Christian homes they stop at, but I do know they get doors slammed in their faces.
quote:
My question to you is do you know Christ? It seems to me that you believe you do. And of course just because a person is here on this forum or attends a church, whether it be a Christian church or not, doesn't a Christian make. I attended church as a child and religious classes growing up, but didn't get saved until ten years ago. I considered myself a Christian when I wasn't. You very well could be saved already even in a LDS church. It's possible. God knows your heart. I hope for your sake that you do have a relationship with Jesus. And this leads to this question:
I have never claimed to be Christian. I am a member of the Chuch of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I prefer the label of LDS. I was raised LDS and taught the doctrines and all, but wasn't truly converted till about 20 years ago. When times are good I acknowledge God with a thankful heart. When in times of stress I turn to God for comfort. When in times of trial I think of Jesus in the garden pleading with the Father to "let the cup pass from me: neverltheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." I know my life would be empty without God.
quote:
Who is Christ? Do you believe Jesus is God? And to clarify, the question is not is Jesus A god, but rather is He THE God. Are He and the Father one? If you say yes, then you believe what Christians believe. If not, then that's a problem. Perhaps you believe it doesn't really matter if you believe Christ is God or not, but it does matter.
Well, we have a problem. I believe God is the Father and Jesus is His Son. I believe them to be separate. This is where we will just have to agree to disagree. Any further discussion on this will violate the TOS.
To answer an earlier question of "why am I here?" The doctrines of the LDS church are unique and different, but there is a lot of stuff said about it that is just not true or half true. My purpose was to correct the misinformation and to acknowledge what the church does teach.
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/4/2006 11:15:54 PM
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lexie
Posts: 2957
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quote:
I have never claimed to be Christian. I am a member of the Chuch of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I prefer the label of LDS.
I prefer the label of Christ. It is through His name that I am saved, not through a church, and my own personal opinion is that we need to stop labelling ourselves by our church and start labelling ourselves by the one who established the church - Christ.
John 20:31 - But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
2 Timothy 2:19 - Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
1 John 3:23 - And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
Can a member of the LDS tell me, how they explain the argument that the BofM was originally translated with KJV errors and then later fixed?
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/4/2006 11:57:00 PM
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crankius
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John 10:30 "I and My Father are one."
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Mormons have to ignore the many passages which clearly define Jesus Christ as Lord.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/5/2006 4:24:14 AM
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kmangel
Posts: 443
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quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
To answer an earlier question of "why am I here?" The doctrines of the LDS church are unique and different, but there is a lot of stuff said about it that is just not true or half true. My purpose was to correct the misinformation and to acknowledge what the church does teach.
Starting with the basics of the Christian faith that Christ is God and the LDS church denying such is setting up many more doctrines that the Christian community is going to take issue with. LDS teachings in my opinion line up more with all other religions than Christianity. By denying the deity of Christ, the LDS church lumps itself in with all other faiths except Christianity. The LDS church is a religion that takes the name of Christ as part of their identification and then denies Who He is. Perhaps there is misinformation going around about the LDS church. We can all get very busy chasing at a lot of issues that keep us from talking about what's important. What's really important is Who Christ is and what He did so that we can have eternal life.
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Colossians 1:16-17 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Colossians 1:19 "For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell"
Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
Hebrews 1:10-12 "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands; They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."
Revelations 1:8 "I am the Alpha and Omega, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
2nd Peter 1:1 "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/5/2006 11:46:57 AM
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shinelikestars
Posts: 67
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Another difference is that mormon doctrine does not align with the fact that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone.
To mormons, we do all we can, and Jesus makes up the difference for the good that we can't do. My friends, that is works righteousness. Just like every other man-made religion.
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/5/2006 4:43:16 PM
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harvesthoney
Posts: 247
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ImAMamasGirl
since the Bible you claim to use debunks Mormon beliefs and warns against adding anything else to it. 
?????
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/5/2006 4:53:06 PM
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harvesthoney
Posts: 247
Joined: 9/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kmangel
Starting with the basics of the Christian faith that Christ is God and the LDS church denying such is setting up many more doctrines that the Christian community is going to take issue with.
Agree
quote:
LDS teachings in my opinion line up more with all other religions than Christianity. By denying the deity of Christ, the LDS church lumps itself in with all other faiths except Christianity.
Not denying, just believe differently.
quote:
The LDS church is a religion that takes the name of Christ as part of their identification and then denies Who He is. Perhaps there is misinformation going around about the LDS church. We can all get very busy chasing at a lot of issues that keep us from talking about what's important.
Couldn't agree more.
quote:
What's really important is Who Christ is and what He did so that we can have eternal life.
Agree again.
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/5/2006 4:57:18 PM
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harvesthoney
Posts: 247
Joined: 9/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
John 10:30 "I and My Father are one."
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Mormons have to ignore the many passages which clearly define Jesus Christ as Lord.
Acts 7:55
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/5/2006 5:52:54 PM
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PolarBear
Posts: 558
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Moving to San Antonio!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
John 10:30 "I and My Father are one."
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Mormons have to ignore the many passages which clearly define Jesus Christ as Lord.
Acts 7:55
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
The doctrine of the Trinity does not deny that Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit are different parts of God and, therefore, separate manifestations of Him. So this verse does not refute it.
The question is, how do you reconcile your faith with the verses Crankius quoted?
_____________________________
My current ministry dream:
http://victorymuseum.org
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/5/2006 11:45:26 PM
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harvesthoney
Posts: 247
Joined: 9/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PolarBear
The doctrine of the Trinity does not deny that Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit are different parts of God and, therefore, separate manifestations of Him. So this verse does not refute it.
The question is, how do you reconcile your faith with the verses Crankius quoted?
I dunno. That scripture in Acts seemed pretty clear to me that they are separate. Again, LDS doctrine is different from Christian beliefs and I have said this over and over and over again. Due to the TOS restrictions this thread cannot go anywhere but in a circle. If you want to further this discussion you will have to go to another website.
I am leaving now.
You all have been great.
Peace
Harvesthoney
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/6/2006 12:01:53 AM
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kmangel
Posts: 443
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harvesthoney
Before I was saved, I didn't understand that Jesus was God. It just for some reason escaped me. I used to think Jesus was just a man. I remember thinking to myself what the big deal was of some man that came, lived, and died--a man like any other man. How could what an ordinary man did (even if he managed not to sin) save me? Where was the supreme display of love of God sending one of His creatures to save other creatures? But once I came to realize Jesus is God, His sacrifice began to make sense to me. What a huge huge difference that was to me. God coming to us as a man Himself, living a perfect life and suffering on the cross, and taking our sin upon His own shoulders in order that we might be saved--now that made sense. God doing for us what we were incapable of doing for ourselves--that spoke love to me. I couldn't wrap my brain around an ordinary man but a God/man make sense to me. What's your view? Do you see a great sacrifice in Christ being a mere man and nothing more? I just can't see that Christ being only a man being able to do anything more than any other person on earth could have done. In fact, if Jesus is just a man then there should be at least a few perfect people in the world besides Him--more saviors. Since He is the only person to live a perfect life, then He has to be more than just a man. Jesus coming into our time and space as fully man and fully God to me is the only logical explanation.
quote:
Acts 7:55
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
I know the Trinity is a hard concept. Some people just can't wrap their brains around what they consider a three-headed monster. But God can have attributes that we don't have. He can be three persons and yet one God. I don't understand it myself but I can accept that there are sure to be things about God that I don't understand yet are true. I imagine there will be much to learn about God on the other side of death that will knock our socks off!
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/16/2006 5:49:24 PM
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mhari324
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my father has been a mormon for 25 years or something like that and i was raised in it. I had always wanted God in my life, but unfortunately, as was said before, it is the skin of truth packed with lies. I was never able to have a relationship with God until he moved me to such a place as i could break away from mormonism. It took years, and those years involved falling over and over and over again. Forunately Gods timing is perfect and i was sent to "The Pearl of Great Price", which is one of the mormon scriptures, to a little known, very secretive belief that MOST mormons don't even know. Kolob. Its rather funny that i still have my Book of Mormon although instead of reading it, i use it as a ministry to those who could fall into a trap about it.
Anyway, im off topic. Kolob, mormons believe, is the resting place of God, given to him by his Father God because of his faithfulness to him. know its known that mormons believe that they can become gods, but it goes a little farther than that. You can actually inheret your own little world to rule over, and you can populate it with giant insects if you were so inclined. This cycle continues to crazy levels if you think that Gods Father God had a Father God who had a Father God who had a Father God and so on and so forth. To set up the quote i will preface it by saying that they have a heiroglyphic image to surmise the creation.
"Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God. First in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time, which celestial time signifies one day to a cubit. One day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years according to the measurement of this earth."
The last sentence is used mostly to push the belief that evolution is possible and its rather hard to find a direct mormon statement discounting that. Usually their more for Intelligent Design.
When God lead me to this verse, i became free of the mormon philosophy. I felt alone for a few moments and then God was right there to pick me up. That was when i gave my life to Christ.
I say these things in hopes that you can use this informations to witness to others about the dangers of the mormon religion. The Lord has given me this testimony and i pray that you will use it to bring others to Christ.
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/17/2006 10:04:20 AM
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AussieTBM
Posts: 28
Joined: 6/27/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mhari324
my father has been a mormon for 25 years or something like that and i was raised in it. I had always wanted God in my life, but unfortunately, as was said before, it is the skin of truth packed with lies. I was never able to have a relationship with God until he moved me to such a place as i could break away from mormonism. It took years, and those years involved falling over and over and over again. Forunately Gods timing is perfect and i was sent to "The Pearl of Great Price", which is one of the mormon scriptures, to a little known, very secretive belief that MOST mormons don't even know. Kolob. Its rather funny that i still have my Book of Mormon although instead of reading it, i use it as a ministry to those who could fall into a trap about it.
Anyway, im off topic. Kolob, mormons believe, is the resting place of God, given to him by his Father God because of his faithfulness to him. know its known that mormons believe that they can become gods, but it goes a little farther than that. You can actually inheret your own little world to rule over, and you can populate it with giant insects if you were so inclined. This cycle continues to crazy levels if you think that Gods Father God had a Father God who had a Father God who had a Father God and so on and so forth. To set up the quote i will preface it by saying that they have a heiroglyphic image to surmise the creation.
"Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God. First in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time, which celestial time signifies one day to a cubit. One day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years according to the measurement of this earth."
The last sentence is used mostly to push the belief that evolution is possible and its rather hard to find a direct mormon statement discounting that. Usually their more for Intelligent Design.
When God lead me to this verse, i became free of the mormon philosophy. I felt alone for a few moments and then God was right there to pick me up. That was when i gave my life to Christ.
I say these things in hopes that you can use this informations to witness to others about the dangers of the mormon religion. The Lord has given me this testimony and i pray that you will use it to bring others to Christ.
Hi mhari324:
I'm aussietbm, an occasional poster to this excellent board. I don't post much these days unless I see something that I find disturbing.
I was most disturbed to read how inadequate your Ward teachers must have been if what you stated here is correct:
quote:
Forunately Gods timing is perfect and i was sent to "The Pearl of Great Price", which is one of the mormon scriptures, to a little known, very secretive belief that MOST mormons don't even know. Kolob.
I was floored by that, there is at least two Primary songs that LDS children learn and sing under the age of 12 that mention Kolob and a number of Church Hymns also.
Their are 14 references to Kolob in the Book of Abraham which is taught in detail in Sunday School classes every third year.
The passage you quoted is actually not from the scripture but is from a footnote explanation of, what LDS believe to be, an ancient Egyptian Document.
You then wrote:
quote:
Anyway, im off topic. Kolob, mormons believe, is the resting place of God, given to him by his Father God because of his faithfulness to him.
I'm again sorry, I have never seen that theory anywhere. The scripture states "And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;
3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest."
You then wrote:
quote:
One day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years according to the measurement of this earth."
The last sentence is used mostly to push the belief that evolution is possible and its rather hard to find a direct mormon statement discounting that. Usually their more for Intelligent Design.
Again I am puzzled, I have never heard that one, you may be a little confused. The LDS Church is very clear on "human evolution", there is no such thing.
I would be very happy to tell you more, however the TOS of the Board limits my ability to do so.
Regards,
aussietbm
_____________________________
For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/17/2006 3:05:14 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4481
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Hello Aussie and Harvesthoney,
I hope you know the beautiful story of Nicodemus. Jesus teaches him that he must be born again. Jesus states that you must believe on CHRIST to not perish, that only through CHRIST will you not be condemned.
Mormons love darkness, which is their own earthly prophets and their own works. God considers your works as rubbish, but He considers His work, in CHRIST, as the only acceptable payment for sin.
Consider God's words today, and I pray that you too may be born again, and not perish in the condemned works of man.
quote:
John 3
1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." 9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/17/2006 9:57:13 PM
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harvesthoney
Posts: 247
Joined: 9/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Hello Aussie and Harvesthoney,
I hope you know the beautiful story of Nicodemus. Jesus teaches him that he must be born again. Jesus states that you must believe on CHRIST to not perish, that only through CHRIST will you not be condemned.
Hi Crankius
Good to hear....read...from you again!!
I know the story of Nicodemus. The LDS church uses this beautiful story to teach about the importance of baptism. Being born of water is baptism by immersion since one cannot re-enter the womb. Then the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The Christian view of this is to say the "Sinners Prayer" or "Confessing to God that I am a sinner, and believing that the Lord Jesus Christ died for my sins on the cross and was raised for my justification. I do now receive and confess Him as my personal Savior."
---found in the back of my Gideons Bible-----
In essence these are the same thing.....Just done differently.
quote:
Mormons love darkness, which is their own earthly prophets and their own works. God considers your works as rubbish, but He considers His work, in CHRIST, as the only acceptable payment for sin.
Ouch...very harsh. Ephesians 4:31-32
quote:
Consider God's words today, and I pray that you too may be born again, and not perish in the condemned works of man.
Thanks
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/18/2006 12:46:01 AM
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AussieTBM
Posts: 28
Joined: 6/27/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Hello Aussie and Harvesthoney,
I hope you know the beautiful story of Nicodemus. Jesus teaches him that he must be born again. Jesus states that you must believe on CHRIST to not perish, that only through CHRIST will you not be condemned.
Mormons love darkness, which is their own earthly prophets and their own works. God considers your works as rubbish, but He considers His work, in CHRIST, as the only acceptable payment for sin.
Consider God's words today, and I pray that you too may be born again, and not perish in the condemned works of man.
Hi Crankius:
Wow! That was a bit strong, I'll do my best not to perish. 
I consider the Lord's words every day and express my gratitude to Him always.
Crankius posted:
quote:
1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Interesting the literal Greek does not have the words “Born again” The same verses read:
quote:
3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;
I have always thought it interesting that both the KJV, and later translations, use the term “born again” in light of the original text.
Crankius posted:
quote:
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Again the literal Greek has it differently:
8quote:
the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'
No mention of wind. To me as an LDS, the literal Greek makes more sense in as much as we believe the Spirit works with all who pray, but it is only when you have the gift of the Holy Ghost you are able to discern where the voice comes from. Anyhow that’s just my thinking.
Another fascinating passage here is verse 13, which is almost identical in the literal.
quote:
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
Now if I understand the Evangelical view of death, the transition to Heaven or hell is almost immediate. That being the case, what do you think the Lord means here? Does it mean that before this time no one qualified or are the spirits of the dead somewhere else? I certainly know LDS Theology on this one, however I am not certain of others.
Crankius posted:
quote:
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Here it is again, this recurring theme in the New Testament. Why is verse 17 necessary, doesn’t verse 16 cover it?
The recurring theme that there is a difference between “Everlasting Life” and being “Saved” is repeated many times through the New Testament.
quote:
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
(New Testament | 1 Timothy 4:10)
I wonder why Paul adds that phrase," specially of those who believe?
quote:
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
(New Testament | John 6:51)
quote:
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.(New Testament | John 12:46 - 47)
Anyhow it is a beautiful passage of Scripture.
Warm regards,
aussietbm
_____________________________
For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/18/2006 8:03:35 AM
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AussieTBM
Posts: 28
Joined: 6/27/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
John 10:30 "I and My Father are one."
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Mormons have to ignore the many passages which clearly define Jesus Christ as Lord.
Hi Crankius:
I missed your, pure in heart and loving, postings. Guess what I have some free time for the next couple of days and I thought I might post just a couple of comments given in the love of the Lord Jesus Christ.
C'mon, crankius you are well read in the various translations and transliterations of this particular passage of scripture. You didn't think I might post a reply, did you? 
Let's have a look at the literal Greek translation from Young.
quote:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; this one was in the beginning with God; all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened. In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
I have always found it interesting that the literal traslation makes the identity of the Lord Jesus Christ much more individual and personal than the KJV translation or, in fact, any of the more recent versions.
Warm regards,
aussietbm
< Message edited by AussieTBM -- 9/18/2006 8:16:05 AM >
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For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/18/2006 8:14:37 AM
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AussieTBM
Posts: 28
Joined: 6/27/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Allegro
If you truly use an unaltered KJV Bible at your church, then I do not understand either how you can possible get what you believe out of the Bible nor how you can use other books on an equal plane with it, since the Bible you claim to use debunks Mormon beliefs and warns against adding anything else to it. Maybe that is just me being me, but I truly cannot understand that. 
Hi Allegro:
Have you seen an altered version of the KJV, please let me know where I might find one, there is a lot of money to be made in finding one.
Your comment was quite amusing to me, could you please point out to me, exactly by chapter & verse, where in the KJV the Lord's Church, that is The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints, is debunked. I think that is the word you used.
I must admit I was quite disturbed that a "Christian" would so debase another's religious beliefs, quite so casually, in this agnostic world.
I have read the KJV many times cover to cover, and many other versions of the Bible, and have as yet to see where the unsubstantiated comment you make can be verified.
Regards,
aussietbm
_____________________________
For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/18/2006 10:54:13 AM
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kmangel
Posts: 443
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
I know the story of Nicodemus. The LDS church uses this beautiful story to teach about the importance of baptism. Being born of water is baptism by immersion since one cannot re-enter the womb.
What is interesting to me is that when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus he rebuked Nicodemus by asking him: “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not understand these things?” What precisely was it Nicodemus didn't understand? Baptism by immersion? Baptism was not something that was done during Old Testament times, so why would water baptism by immersion be something Jesus was rebuking Nicodemus about? Jesus certainly was expecting Nicodemus to know exactly what He was referring to. In Ezekiel 36:25-27 is this verse “sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.” Water is certainly mentioned here (by sprinkling!) and Jesus knew Nicodemus knew well the verse, but water baptism was not being referred to in this passage since it didn't exist during OT times for Jewish believers. So from this perspective, water baptism couldn't have been what Jesus was referring to.
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/18/2006 11:33:57 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4481
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Jesus came in grace and truth. Truth pierces, and therefore seems harsh.
But hear me…I share the same struggle as you! All of my works are rubbish as well. I share in your predicament!
Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
I have Christ's blood, so all is not lost. You can share the same!
Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
You are too well-read in the Bible, Harvesthoney and Aussie, to continue in the lies of Mormonism. Read God’s Word with the innocence of a child, removing from your mind the Book of Mormon and Mormon doctrines. God is giving you the great opportunity to be born again of the Spirit, and not of the water. It is only through Christ that you can be born again.
Titus 3:4-5 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
And this is the washing which Jesus told Nicodemus to experience. Being born again has nothing to do with the water.
This is my prayer, and know, Christ gave His life for Aussie and for Harvesthoney also!
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/18/2006 1:23:58 PM
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harvesthoney
Posts: 247
Joined: 9/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kmangel
What is interesting to me is that when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus he rebuked Nicodemus by asking him: “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not understand these things?” What precisely was it Nicodemus didn't understand? Baptism by immersion? Baptism was not something that was done during Old Testament times, so why would water baptism by immersion be something Jesus was rebuking Nicodemus about? Jesus certainly was expecting Nicodemus to know exactly what He was referring to. In Ezekiel 36:25-27 is this verse “sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.” Water is certainly mentioned here (by sprinkling!) and Jesus knew Nicodemus knew well the verse, but water baptism was not being referred to in this passage since it didn't exist during OT times for Jewish believers. So from this perspective, water baptism couldn't have been what Jesus was referring to.
Jesus was baptized. He invites all to do the same for one cannot enter into the His kingdom without it. I guess Nicodemus couldn't understand this because he was living and teaching the old law. If the Jews of the old testament didn't do baptisms, then how did John the Baptist know how to baptize Jesus?
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RE: Mormonism? - 9/18/2006 1:48:00 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4481
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AussieTBM
Interesting the literal Greek does not have the words “Born again” The same verses read:
quote:
3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;
I have always thought it interesting that both the KJV, and later translations, use the term “born again” in light of the original text.
Does this change the meaning for you?
quote:
Crankius posted:
quote:
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Again the literal Greek has it differently:
8quote:
the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'
No mention of wind. To me as an LDS, the literal Greek makes more sense in as much as we believe the Spirit works with all who pray, but it is only when you have the gift of the Holy Ghost you are able to discern where the voice comes from. Anyhow that’s just my thinking.
The word pneuma can mean wind or spirit. Hebrews 1:7 also uses the “wind” translation for pneuma--
Hebrews 1:7 In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds [peuma], his servants flames of fire."
A believer in the true Christ for the source of all of his salvation is filled with the Holy Spirit and becomes the living temple. The believer can know this is true because the Holy Word of God tells them so.
They don’t need to rely upon a mysterious burning in the bosom, which may simply be a bit of bad meat or the swell of human emotion. All things are tested according to the Word of God, not according to the inner workings and feelings of man.
The Mormon understanding of the Holy Spirit is not scriptural. For you to see this you would have to read God’s scriptures as if you had never read any Mormon doctrine, pray that the Lord will open your eyes and ears, and be prepared to reject any teaching which does not line up with the true Words of God.
quote:
Another fascinating passage here is verse 13, which is almost identical in the literal.
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13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
Now if I understand the Evangelical view of death, the transition to Heaven or hell is almost immediate. That being the case, what do you think the Lord means here? Does it mean that before this time no one qualified or are the spirits of the dead somewhere else? I certainly know LDS Theology on this one, however I am not certain of others.
John 3:13
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
Christ is speaking of Himself, explaining how He has knowledge of heavenly things (see v.12). Christ is explaining that He is the only one with knowledge from Heaven, no one has ascended to heaven and gained heavenly insight to bring down and share…Christ has heavenly knowledge because He (and only He) came down from heaven. He was with God in the beginning, as John 1 points out.
This means that all the Mormon teaching about us being spirits prior to our earthly existence is false.
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The recurring theme that there is a difference between “Everlasting Life” and being “Saved” is repeated many times through the New Testament.
How do you receive eternal life with God? You must be saved. Otherwise, God’s wrath remains on you, and you will not be with God.
Joh 3:36 “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
The only way you can be saved into eternal life with God is through CHRIST. Not one good deed of your own will gain you entrance into eternal life with God. Only the blood of Christ, as the blood of the lamb marked the doors for the passover, will mark your heart as fit for God's kingdom.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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