RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (Full Version)

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peculiar_lady2 -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/20/2008 10:30:22 AM)

Tamara...I have the feeling like this...it's MY body and MY birth. The medical staff that I hire (or that insurance pays for) are there to assist ME. I am not there for them. If they are not willing to do things the way I like and they can not honestly give me GOOD, SOUND medical advice as to why they feel that way, then we would (and have) had it out about things. I of course had to learn to be like this the hard way after being the opposite with my first birth experience and almost losing my baby's life and mine on several occasions because of it.



TammyIsBlessed -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/20/2008 12:39:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PrudentWife

Not all Drs put you on a 24 hour clock after water breaks. My Dr never once mentioned a time frame or a need to get the baby out simply because my water had broken. It really depends on the doctor.


My drs have always done the 24hour clock thing. I mean, not literally of course. If I was 9 cm and progressing nicely they wouldn't do a c just because time was up.

I'm hoping they'd let me go about 12 hrs, since my labours are usually about 12 hrs long.

quote:

Happy Due Date, Tammy!! Hope today is your day [:)]


Thanks! Not looking like it so far, but one can always hope! [:D]



TammyIsBlessed -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/20/2008 12:55:20 PM)

I haven't read through this entire thread, but I did read the 1st couple pages. Regarding the VBAC's....

my sister is one of those who wanted to try for it!

HOWEVER, her first was a planned c-section (due to a breech baby), so she didn't go through this long, horrible labour first before getting the c. I'm sure that makes a huge difference on the decision.

So, she was really hopeful to try the vbac and she was successful! She definitely preferred her 2nd delivery and once to do the same if they have another.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/20/2008 1:04:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2

Tamara...I have the feeling like this...it's MY body and MY birth. The medical staff that I hire (or that insurance pays for) are there to assist ME. I am not there for them. If they are not willing to do things the way I like and they can not honestly give me GOOD, SOUND medical advice as to why they feel that way, then we would (and have) had it out about things. I of course had to learn to be like this the hard way after being the opposite with my first birth experience and almost losing my baby's life and mine on several occasions because of it.


Yeah, I understand that. The only reason I ask is because I know some doctors do what they think is best, or don't do much at all in the way of what the patient wants. I understand they're entitled to their beliefs and I know in the past they could dismiss patients who didn't agree with them (I'm not sure how it is now)-- unless it was an immediate emergency situation, but when is it enough to find a doctor who will cooperate with you for what you want (as long as it's not about kill someone or something)?



clag4christ -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/20/2008 1:11:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solo_soprano21

quote:

ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2

Tamara...I have the feeling like this...it's MY body and MY birth. The medical staff that I hire (or that insurance pays for) are there to assist ME. I am not there for them. If they are not willing to do things the way I like and they can not honestly give me GOOD, SOUND medical advice as to why they feel that way, then we would (and have) had it out about things. I of course had to learn to be like this the hard way after being the opposite with my first birth experience and almost losing my baby's life and mine on several occasions because of it.


Yeah, I understand that. The only reason I ask is because I know some doctors do what they think is best, or don't do much at all in the way of what the patient wants. I understand they're entitled to their beliefs and I know in the past they could dismiss patients who didn't agree with them (I'm not sure how it is now)-- unless it was an immediate emergency situation, but when is it enough to find a doctor who will cooperate with you for what you want (as long as it's not about kill someone or something)?


I agree with Sarah. Doctor's do go to school for many years to learn what they know...and I appreciate that knowledge very much. That being said however, some doctors think that all births and labors should follow a nice neat cookie cutter pattern and they don't allow for variance among women's bodies. Just because a few women follow the 'standard pattern' (whatever that is in the doctor's mind) for labor and delivery does NOT mean that *all* women will do that. Each woman's body is different therefore each will labor and deliver in a different manner. Some women efface first and then dilate very quickly; some women dilate and efface at the same rate; some women start dilating and then plateau about halfway through until their water is broken or breaks; etc, etc! There are so very many variations. For a doctor to say, "Listen here, you need to do such and such in this amount of time or we're gonna give you a c-section!" is just ridiculous.

I would very much prefer that doctors use their knowledge of women's bodies to see the differences rather and expect every woman to be the same.



sharonjef2007 -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/20/2008 2:18:43 PM)

Ok...so, I feel old now. I'm a great aunt...[&:]

My newphew's girlfriend had a girl this past Wednesday. My mom was there for a lot of the labor as well as my sister. My mom was AMAZED at how well the epidural went for her. In fact, she said that my nephew's girlfriend barely even broke a sweat when pushing. She did have some complications but did not feel them until after the edpidural had wore off.

Now, if God ever chooses that I get knocked up.....THAT is the kinda birth I want. One that I can't feel...LOL!



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/20/2008 2:37:39 PM)

quote:

Now, if God ever chooses that I get knocked up.....THAT is the kinda birth I want. One that I can't feel...LOL!

ROFLOL!!!!! there is something to be said for the epidural!!!!



lexie -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/20/2008 8:30:52 PM)

quote:

Ok...so, I feel old now. I'm a great aunt...


You're not alone, mind you I became a great aunt when I married my husband (his nephew had one child, niece has two children) but it was still funny to say to people that I was a great aunt at the age of 24! (His nephew and I were actually the same age).



Hazel2 -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/22/2008 12:06:02 PM)

I've had two births ... both cesareans. I am not at all interested in VBAC. For me, cesareans offer an element of control I feel I need to deal with pregnancy.

Neither of my births were hard or traumatic. My first C was an emergency but I was only in labor for a few hours and 2-3 cm dialated and I'd already had an epidural. I suspect that a traumatic and painful delivery would limit us to one child. Now I hope to have two or even three more children. They are so amazing to me ... each one with her own little personality, her own little person. Equally wonderful but completely different.

I have a friend who had a C for her first baby. She just went through a very very easy VBAC for her second.



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/22/2008 12:26:02 PM)

quote:

Neither of my births were hard or traumatic.
um.....call me weird, but I would NOT consider having a STROKE after a birth to be "not traumatic". I think you have good reason to have C-sec's for any birth after having to go through that experience!!!!



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/23/2008 4:19:55 PM)

One of my sister's friends had a baby, then she had a stroke (I think she had the stroke as the baby was being handled after he just came out). I guess it was a good thing she was at the hospital giving birth; she almost died. [&:] She wasn't high-risk and as fas as I know she hadn't had any pregnancy issues. Her mother did die of something similar one day though...just fell over dead with no warning, so maybe those particular kinds of problems ran in the family and they didn't know it.

I told my mom if I have kids, I'm going to be at the hospital. Lol. Everyone else can do what they want, but with the stuff I've seen happen without warning and suddenly to friends and family right after birth...strokes and seizures...and the mother losing consciousness...people having burst blood vessels in the head, etc., I'll live. Plus I like doctors anyway...I planned on being an ob. :) (Although I do know some of them can be bad all kinds of ways.)

Edited to ask a question: I was reading the "natural" thread, and I thought a woman could refuse a c-section. They can try to force you or tell you whatever, but can't you sign off and just try for a vaginal birth? I didn't think docs could force you even if they thought it was best. I don't know a lot about birthing "procedure" at the hospital, but I still didn't think you could be forced by anyone.



PrudentWife -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/23/2008 4:26:54 PM)

I do believe you can sign a waiver and attempt a vaginal delivery against medical advice. But that would be legislated on a state by state basis (in the US), so it's hard to say what is standard.

Some insurance companies will not cover your care if you chose to go against medical advice. So that would probably be another waiver you'd have to sign [&:]

I've seen on medical shows (fiction shows like ER and House) where if a parent is being negligent in their minor child's care, two MDs can sign a form to override the parents wishes. I wonder if there is some sort of policy like that IRL, where if the MD is quite certain the baby will die during childbirth that they can get another MDs opinion to legally 'force' the mother to undergo surgery.



uponeagleswings -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/23/2008 11:30:25 PM)

I read a story on someone's blog where the mom was doing a vbac@home and b/c it was a long labor she went to the hospital to get an IV (dehydration), and was going to return home afterwards. The hospital got wind that she was doing a vbac, got a court order, went to her house, (another nurse had helped her sneak out the back door of the hospital) arrested her, and physically forced her to go back to the hospital and have a c-section. The family tried to sue and a judge refused to let the case go to trial.

Here is a link to the story (I think). If the link just goes to the main blog, the entry is dated June 1, 2007, and was also published in several books/articles

ETA
Fair warning: the blog is very pro homebirth/unassisted birth.



clag4christ -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/23/2008 11:53:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: uponeagleswings

I read a story on someone's blog where the mom was doing a vbac@home and b/c it was a long labor she went to the hospital to get an IV (dehydration), and was going to return home afterwards. The hospital got wind that she was doing a vbac, got a court order, went to her house, (another nurse had helped her sneak out the back door of the hospital) arrested her, and physically forced her to go back to the hospital and have a c-section. The family tried to sue and a judge refused to let the case go to trial.

Here is a link to the story (I think). If the link just goes to the main blog, the entry is dated June 1, 2007, and was also published in several books/articles



WOW! Now if that doesn't go against everything that I believe is right!



agapetos -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/24/2008 12:52:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: clag4christ

quote:

ORIGINAL: uponeagleswings

I read a story on someone's blog where the mom was doing a vbac@home and b/c it was a long labor she went to the hospital to get an IV (dehydration), and was going to return home afterwards. The hospital got wind that she was doing a vbac, got a court order, went to her house, (another nurse had helped her sneak out the back door of the hospital) arrested her, and physically forced her to go back to the hospital and have a c-section. The family tried to sue and a judge refused to let the case go to trial.

Here is a link to the story (I think). If the link just goes to the main blog, the entry is dated June 1, 2007, and was also published in several books/articles



WOW! Now if that doesn't go against everything that I believe is right!
It goes against everything that I believe in as well.

However, despite the fact that it has been mentioned in the book, I have a certain amount of cynacism about the story. Surely in today's world a story like this would make headline news? The parents would be talking about it, their relatives, even some of the staff at the hospital.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened, couldn't happen or anything... I'm just wondering why, in today's world the press haven't turned this into headline news the way they do everything else...



clag4christ -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/24/2008 12:56:31 AM)

Not sure...I haven't looked at this book personally...but I'm sure that there would have to be certain sources. If this happened say 20 years ago then it's possible that all the "hub-bub" has died down and that's why we've not heard of it.

Not trying to argue against you here...I see your point completely. I also wondered why the parents didn't appeal the original judges' decision which denied their right to due process...but I'm not very knowlegable about Florida case law, etc.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/24/2008 1:03:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: uponeagleswings

I read a story on someone's blog where the mom was doing a vbac@home and b/c it was a long labor she went to the hospital to get an IV (dehydration), and was going to return home afterwards. The hospital got wind that she was doing a vbac, got a court order, went to her house, (another nurse had helped her sneak out the back door of the hospital) arrested her, and physically forced her to go back to the hospital and have a c-section. The family tried to sue and a judge refused to let the case go to trial.

Here is a link to the story (I think). If the link just goes to the main blog, the entry is dated June 1, 2007, and was also published in several books/articles


That doesn't surprise me. Isn't it against some law or rule to have a VBAC at home in some states? I think if it is, people will go to any lengths to enforce it. Even if the law thinks the mother wants to "take a chance," they'll overrule. The only way I can see force in a situation is if the baby is surely going to die...and even then I'm not sure what should be done.

I don't see why women can't just sign off and VBAC at a hospital if they want to. (I know many ob/gyn's think it unwise.) But then again, I'm not sure when you try to "force" to save the baby and forget about what the mother wants. I know it probably doesn't happen much now, but I'm sure it does. I know had my sister refused her c's, she'd probably be alive, but my nephews wouldn't.



agapetos -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/24/2008 1:32:31 AM)

quote:

If this happened say 20 years ago then it's possible that all the "hub-bub" has died down and that's why we've not heard of it.
I agree, the timeline would be a factor. I'd be hoping that it was more recent than that though, given this doctor mentioned it in his book (which I think is a recent publication).

While we need to take care that we don't repeat the mistakes of the past, posting something that is very out-of-date as though it happened fairly recently is wrong. Times and people change.

quote:

Isn't it against some law or rule to have a VBAC at home in some states?
I don't know, but if it is, surely the parents in question would have known and known not to go to the hospital.

If true, it's a tragic situation and I pray that changes will happen to avoid it being repeated.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/24/2008 2:19:28 AM)

I thought sometimes it was an insurance thing. I somehow remember hearing that insurance companies won't really support a VBAC.

I tried to look up the law in Fl. (I think that's where the article said the woman was from). I can't find an "official" site, but I found forums and such, and they all say just about the same. They say that the midwife basically has to have permission from an M.D. (ob/gyn). The law then may have been different...most of the forums I'm looking at are from preg. women who want homebirths but can't get them in Fl., so I'm thinking they're probably at least half right. I know it's just flat-out illegal in some states, but not all. It seems like in Fl. you have to have permission. It may vary by region I suppose.



Sideways -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/24/2008 6:10:31 AM)

One thing to remember, it's not just our body - it's someone else's body, too. That's what being pro-life means, right? I am all for women being informed and making choices concerning their birth, but I also happen to respect a doctor's opinion, even when it doesn't perfectly line up with mine.

So, in extreme conditions, if a mom really is endangering someone else's life (her baby), I could see doctors justifiably forcing a c-section. But that would be extremely rare, and I don't personally think that a home VBAC qualifies. There are some women who are so over-the-top about natural birthing, that they would not listen to a good OB who was genuinely worried about the baby's health, though.



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/24/2008 8:59:09 AM)

I was going to have to sign waivers if Biruk stayed breech. I'm not exactly sure what they would have done if I showed up pushing with him breech...stand around watching me but not assisting so as not to risk a lawsuit?[8|]

Pushed (Jennifer Block) documents three cases where court orders were gotten to force a woman to have a c-section. At least one of them did make national news--it was several years ago, a woman who had had several perfectly normal VBACs, and someone at the hospital she originally went to said "Well, things have changed, no VBAC here" so she walked out. The book has the full names of the couples and sources for all three cases, including the names of the hospitals.

The problem really is what consititutes life threatening. There is at least one doctor blogging now who considers all birth life threatening and all homebirths completely irresponsible. Others genuinely believe a baby over 8 lb is at high risk without c-section, or that breech is terribly dangerous for everyone.

If I could be convinced that my baby was truly at risk, I'd have the surgery. I have just seen too many threats and unfounded opinions disguised as medical concern that I've gotten a bit cynical. [:(]



Sideways -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/24/2008 9:25:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
If I could be convinced that my baby was truly at risk, I'd have the surgery. I have just seen too many threats and unfounded opinions disguised as medical concern that I've gotten a bit cynical. [:(]


It's understandable that you should be cynical, and like I said, I don't consider a VBAC to be high risk unless there are other factors. But these doctors have high malpractice insurance for a reason. People are sueing them all the time. They must be careful.

And what happens when a mom who has been warned 6 times that a vaginal delivery would be dangerous, and the first five come out perfectly fine, but the last baby ends up dead? The parents sue, of course.

You say - if the baby were truely at risk - well, what constitutes in your mind being a risk? If you don't consent to monitoring, then how would you know the heart rate is falling?

How does the mom know when it's time to have a c-section, but not the doctors? I'm not trying to attack, these are honest questions that I've always had for moms who swear up and down to go natural, but say "Well, I'd have section if the baby was really in danger". What, in your mind, is really in danger?



Sideways -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/24/2008 9:41:37 AM)

Here's a better example, the placenta is shown to be in front of the cervix. Women have survived vaginal deliveries with this, but it is extremely high risk. In that case I could see the docs forcing a section.

Docs might think in their mind that there is a high risk of the delivery going south. Instead of waiting until the heart rate is dropping, the mom is bleeding and they have 60 seconds to the baby out - they instead recommend a calm, controlled preplanned section. I don't blame them for making such a recommendation.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/24/2008 9:42:32 AM)

[sm=thumbsup.gif]



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Do we need an UNNatural childbirth support and discussion thread too? (1/24/2008 9:50:44 AM)

One thing I've thought for a while, if a woman is "uneducated" about her options, how is that the DOCTOR'S fault instead of hers? [&:] I don't see why the doctors have to be attacked and maligned because women didn't know. If a c-section for a woman is unnecessary but she went along with it just because her doc said it's the best thing, but she later thought it hadn't been best (in other words, she "educated" herself AFTER the C), I still think that's on her and not the doctor.

This is a bad comparison, but there have been plenty of things I've politely declined that my doctor has wanted to do to me, or have me do. Some of them could have potentially been harmful, but there's a risk in just about anything. I don't see why it's Dr. A's fault that patient B didn't educate him/herself and just followed him with what he wanted to do in the situation. I don't think things always turn out as bad as people want to make it seem, but I really think the patients are sometimes more at fault than the doctor.



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