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RE: free will - 2/4/2008 6:00:34 PM
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evry1needsgod
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Woah there, no need to be hostile. I think you and Nothingman are debating over two totally different concepts...foreknowledge and predestination. They are two totally different concepts that have been thoroughly reviewed in the Calvinism/Arminius thread.
First of all, the word "predestined" does not appear anywhere in the Bible.
Second, let me ask you a question. If EVERYTHING that happens in this world is "predestined" (that word is basically up to you for interpretation) then how are we accountable for our sins? By what you have said, it seems as though God "predestines" people to Hell, and even "predestines" people to sin. That is totally against the basic foundations of God. I have to agree with Heavendweller and Nothingman. God, in His sovereignty, controls all things, yet, free will and our God given right to obey or disobey are BOTH evident in Scriptures.
Search the words 'Choose,' 'Chose,' 'Chosen,' 'Choice,' and 'Choosing' (in the KJV Bible) and you will come up with 226 verses with those words mentioned. Obviously God has given mankind a free will choice to choice as we wish. How God's sovereignty fits into all of this is a mystery to me, just like the Trinity.
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RE: free will - 2/4/2008 6:27:23 PM
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bob97
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Does God ordain some things? What do you make of this verse?
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. KJV
Another translation; For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things He planned for us long ago. NLT
Now I know many will say; well these things are only general (to grow to be Christ like) but I think it really means to accomplish a specific task.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: free will - 2/4/2008 11:55:08 PM
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evry1needsgod
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First of all, lets define the word “we”. In the verse you mentioned, “we” refers to those who are saved. When we are saved, what happens? We are “conformed to the image of Christ Jesus”
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
The main phrase I think you, and many others, emphasize is “…before ordained that we SHOULD walk in them.” First of all, let me, as I already have, point out the word “should”. In the NLT translation you gave, it uses the phrase “can do” which is very similar to the word “should”. Does either of these suggest that we are forced? If you “can do” or “should” do something, does that mean you have no other choice? No. Actually, it’s just the contrary. They both leave the option open for the individual to make his/her own choice. Let me put it in simpler terms. Your parent’s expect you to obey them, and not cross the street without looking in both directions. You are capable of walking and you are capable of doing as your parents wish (In both translations of Eph 2:10, God gives you the ability of choosing as He expects you to, as shown by the words “can do” and “should”) but you are not forced to look in both directions, and if you get hit, that’s your own fault. Your parents have imparted their trust upon you by allowing you to cross the street on your own. Can you look in both directions? Yes. Should you? Absolutely! Will you? Well, that’s up to you. God conformed His elect in Christ’s image, with Him dwelling in our hearts, giving us the capability of choosing right, keeping our free will intact.
Secondly, we must define God’s will to the best of our knowledge. God has two aspects of His will. God’s basic will is for us is to obey Him in all aspects of our life (Repent of our sins, realize we are sinners and accept the gift of Jesus Christ as our personal Savior through faith and God’s infinite mercy and grace alone). If we choose not to do this then He must punish us with eternal damnation to the Lake of Fire where one will be tormented for the rest of eternity. That is the second aspect of His will. They are both in and of itself one will, that being, glory to God the Father! In order for His will to be sufficiently accomplished, human free-will MUST exist.
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RE: free will - 2/5/2008 11:06:18 PM
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dustymb
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Absolutely; I agree that there is no need to be hostile. Unfortunately this doctine of predestination does tend to bring that emotion out of people. I do want to be aware of several passages in which we find the word predestination.
Acts 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
1 Cor 2:7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden {wisdom} which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will
In your argument, in which you say that if everything is predestined then we cannot be held responsible for our sins, we find the viewpoint of determinism. Please allow me to attempt to articulate a brief explanation of my position. In the article I wrote, I came on very strong in the advocacy of God's freedom, and stated that we are not free.
I intended to make a very black and white statement. In response to your argument that predestination causes determinism I would like to make a less black and white statement. R.C. Sproul says it well when he says that we are free, but God is more free. Any serious-protestant-born again-student of the bible will come to the conclusion that God is sovereign. This means that God is supremely powerful, transcendant, and in complete control of His creation. He is not as the deists claim, a distant God who wound up the universe and let it go. God does not force us to commit sin, but allows us to act according to our fallen will, and sin so that His purpose will be accomplished. God has clearly revealed His purpose for the creation from start to finish. He clearly reveals to us that He is in sovereign control of the destiny of the universe. The fact that God uses our fallen inclinations to accomplish His purpose does not indict God in any way. God has indeed predestined everything according to His purpose.
Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
God clearly works all things according to His will. This will in no wise negate our responsibility for our sin because then God would be unjust.
I hope we all agree that the bible is inerrant and will in no way contradicts itself. We must not think too highly of ourselves in this creation. We are secondary to the main purpose of God the Father in His plan. The main purpose of the Father is to present a gift of glorious love to the Son who in turn will present Himself and the gift back to the Father for His glory. We the redeemed are this glorious gift bought with the blood of the lamb. This gift of the redeemed, ultimately is this expression of this inter-trinitarian love. We must not become too enamoured with ourselves lest these truth's never be understood to our hearts, that are so prone to rebel against the truth of scripture. I hope this will shed some more light on the subject. God Bless.
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RE: free will - 2/6/2008 5:56:01 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dustymb
Absolutely; I agree that there is no need to be hostile. Unfortunately this doctine of predestination does tend to bring that emotion out of people.
Unfortunately, it seems most people misunderstand what predestination is all about. Seems Calvinists understand it to mean that God chose who will believe.
For example, the verses you have provided:
quote:
Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Our predestination is about being "conformed to the image of His Son, and being adopted as sons. Predestination is for believers. He didn't predestinate unbelievers.
quote:
I intended to make a very black and white statement. In response to your argument that predestination causes determinism I would like to make a less black and white statement. R.C. Sproul says it well when he says that we are free, but God is more free.
No argument here. Of course God is totally free, because He is sovereign. However, since you (and Sproul) agree that man is free, this should be the end of the discussion. What's more to discuss? Man is free to respond or reject God. This is shown in Isa 1:19 and 20 clearly.
quote:
The fact that God uses our fallen inclinations to accomplish His purpose does not indict God in any way. God has indeed predestined everything according to His purpose.
Are our sins predestined by God?
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RE: free will - 2/6/2008 3:24:07 PM
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evry1needsgod
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I agree with FreeGrace. I think this says it best.
Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
What I beleive this verse is teaching is that those whom God KNEW would accept Him, He predestined them to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. I don't see anywhere in this verse where it says He forced us, because that is what predestined means. If our destiny is to go to Hell, there is nothing we can possibly do about that, and to me that makes no sense.
You also said: "This means that God is supremely powerful, transcendant, and in complete control of His creation." People do not have to be predestined in order for God to be in control. Take, for example, your parents. Say they have a bunch of kids. These three kids start bickering and arguing. The parents, however, are in the "background" watching all of this. They are still in control, and have the ability to stop anything before it becomes dangerous to the kids. But the parents allow them to bicker and fight until 1. They sort things out or 2. It gets out of hand. My parents did this to me and my 2 brothers, and it actually worked. Does God control His creation? Absolutely! But does that mean He HAS to control every single action and thought we have? No. Can He? Sure. Does He? Yes, sometimes. But if you are right Dustymb, then please explain to me the question FreeGrace asked. Are our sins predestined by God? Allowing something to happen is in every aspect part of being in control. Now, I am not one of those individuals who beleive that God created us and let us be. God's hand in peoples lives, ESPECIALLY mine, is evident in both Scriptures and today. There would be no point for Jesus' earthly ministry if God just let us be. But that does not mean he cant allow things to happen. He is still in control. If EVERYTHING we do on this earth is predestined, then by your logic, so are our sins. And if that were true, what really is sin? If our sins can't be controlled, then why is there "sin?" Sin is the transgression of God's law. If we can't control our sins, then we aren't transgressing anything. If God controls us like we are robots, then technically HE is transgressing His own law. I don't know. Maybe this makes sense to you somehow, and maybe I'm just missing something.
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RE: free will - 2/6/2008 3:54:29 PM
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1love1God1way
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I hope this fits in...it's an interesting Scripture that takes a slightly different look at the potter/clay predestination line of thinking....
Jeremiah 18
The Potter and the Clay
1The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying,
2"Arise and go down to the potter's house, and there I will announce My words to you."
3Then I went down to the potter's house, and there he was, making something on the wheel.
4But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make.
5Then the word of the LORD came to me saying,
6"Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel.
7"At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it;
8if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it.
9"Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it;
10if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.
Interesting how the potter changes his mind, based on the clay not coming out as he intended... Just something to ponder.
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: free will - 2/6/2008 6:35:33 PM
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dustymb
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I'm afraid that you are misunderstanding my argument. Your last comment "Are our sins predestined by God?", is typical, in that it is commonly brought up. Let me summarize the history and future of redemption. God created all things for His glory. How has He chosen to bring glory to Himself? Among other things He created, chiefly He created man in His image. He created man to be fundamentally good as it says in Gen 1:31 "God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good." He did create man with the propensity to sin. I don't know how He did this but He did. God was not pleased with Adam's sin, and it was not God's desire that man sin, but it was God's will that man sin. It was the hidden will of God not the revealed will, mind you there is a difference. God's desires are obviously trumped by His will. We also know that God had planned from eternity past that He would send His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for sinners so He was obviously fully aware that Adam would sin even while Adam was tending the garden. God is always grieved by sin, but at the same time God is bringing glory to Himself by triumphing over it. It is because of this glory that He is patiently waiting for a season, for sin to run its course. God is chiefly concerned with His glory not the whimsies of man. Paul says all of these things far better than me. Rom 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16 So then it {does} not {depend} on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Rom 9:19 ¶ You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Rom 9:23 And {He did so} to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
If you fear God and cherish His word above your own fallen intuition, imaginings, and philosophies then you can find joy in this doctrine. I do not say this rudely, but with love knowing that this is true and good. Don't allow the world and corrupted feelings to shape your understanding of God, but rather "be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect." Romans 12:2 This renewal of the mind which is so necessary to grasp these truths comes from fully submitting to the authority of scripture alone. It is when men turn aside from the truth that man is exalted above God in his own mind and truth becomes unacceptable. 2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but {wanting} to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2 Tim 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
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RE: free will - 2/6/2008 6:44:11 PM
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cognitivemagic
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I appreciate the notion of toning down on some of the "hostility", if there even be such.
But let me pose some questions for the Calvinist to consider: Is not "hostility" merely a subset of God's sovereign will? Is asking people to "tone down hostility" itself a capitulation to moral responsibility, and therefore, to freewill? Can anyone refrain from "hostility", from a Calvinist point of view?
< Message edited by cognitivemagic -- 2/6/2008 6:50:35 PM >
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RE: free will - 2/6/2008 9:14:47 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dustymb
I'm afraid that you are misunderstanding my argument.
I'm trying to understand your argument. 
quote:
Your last comment "Are our sins predestined by God?", is typical, in that it is commonly brought up.
Since you stated:
quote:
The fact that God uses our fallen inclinations to accomplish His purpose does not indict God in any way. God has indeed predestined everyting according to His purpose.
You think it is His purpose than His creation sin? Again, my question is a valid one for such statements as these.
quote:
Let me summarize the history and future of redemption. God created all things for His glory.
Sin does not bring Him glory.
quote:
He did create man with the propensity to sin. I don't know how He did this but He did.
I disagree. He didn't create man with the propensity to sin, but rather, with the freedom to sin.
quote:
God was not pleased with Adam's sin, and it was not God's desire that man sin, but it was God's will that man sin.
I disagree again. It is God's will to give eternal life to all believers (John 6:40).
quote:
It was the hidden will of God not the revealed will, mind you there is a difference.
If there is such a thing as the "hidden will of God", neither of us would know anything about it, right? The fact that you claim something is the hidden will of God means it isn't hidden, because you know about it.
quote:
God is always grieved by sin,
Are our sins predestined by God?
quote:
but at the same time God is bringing glory to Himself by triumphing over it.
He triumphs over something He predestined?
quote:
It is because of this glory that He is patiently waiting for a season, for sin to run its course.
Please explain what you mean by "for sin to run its course". Thanks.
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RE: free will - 2/6/2008 10:07:44 PM
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dustymb
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In my saying that sin will run its course I am saying that there is a measure of sin that will be filled up. The example that I cite is in Gen 15:16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached it's full measure.
You asked me if I thought it was God's purpose that His creation sin. His creation sinned didn't it? Are you saying that an omnicient God was caught off guard? Is 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; You said sin does not bring glory in response to a statement I made. Sinning does not bring God glory, rather it is our Savior triumphing over it and God's righteous judgement of the unbelieving that will bring Him glory. In regard to God's hidden will; it is only hidden until it takes place. His revealed will is what we find in the scriptures. His hidden will is revealed in the passing of each moment. I will also say that God is sovereign over the evil that He permits so that no one will think that anything is beyond the reach of the Lord. Let me cite two examples of Gods sovereign control over Satan.
Job 2:3 The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."
Job 2:4 Satan answered the LORD and said, "Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life.
Job 2:5 "However, put forth Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face."
Job 2:6 So the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life."
God allows the attack on Job, but commands Satan to spare his life.
2 Chr 18:18 ¶ Micaiah said, "Therefore, hear the word of the LORD. I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing on His right and on His left.
2 Chr 18:19 "The LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab king of Israel to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said this while another said that.
2 Chr 18:20 "Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.' And the LORD said to him, 'How?'
2 Chr 18:21 "He said, 'I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then He said, 'You are to entice {him} and prevail also. Go and do so.'
Again we see God sovereignly decreeing His judgements over even evil yet He remains perfectly Holy. Such decrees are meted out constantly before the throne of God and remain hidden from our view, but they do not stay hidden forever. They are eventually acted out in the world. Ahab did believe the lie as he was predestined.
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RE: free will - 2/6/2008 10:21:11 PM
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Heavendweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Interesting how the potter changes his mind, based on the clay not coming out as he intended... Just something to ponder.
And this is why we must take into account that there is both free will and predestination - a tension that exists between the two. It is dangerous to put God in the Calvinist box and thereby negate anything that His creation could or would ever do.
Finally, there comes a point where we cannot grasp the concept of free will and predestination. We can say that they both exist, and that both can be shown they exist from Sacred Scripture. But the danger is to over-emphasis one aspect.
As I live each day, I am faced with choices that I must make. Will I live in the love, forgiveness, grace and mercy of God, and receive His life and light? Or will I ignore Him and choose my own selfish, sinful desires? And even should I do the latter, He is ever willing and able to forgive. His mercies are new every morning, great is His faithfulness. God is our Heavenly Father, and just as earthly fathers take delight in their children making right and good choices over wrong and harmful ones, so it is that our Heavenly Father delights in us when we make the right choices.
HD
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RE: free will - 2/6/2008 11:27:26 PM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Interesting how the potter changes his mind, based on the clay not coming out as he intended... Just something to ponder.
And this is why we must take into account that there is both free will and predestination - a tension that exists between the two. It is dangerous to put God in the Calvinist box and thereby negate anything that His creation could or would ever do.
I absolutely agree that this is not an either/or situation, but a both/and.
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: free will - 2/7/2008 12:04:59 AM
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bob97
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If God is Sovereign (and He is) He knows of the decision you will make before you make it. He either lets you make or he doesn’t. Guess you could call that limited human autonomy.
God sustains this world and as such will not let something happen that would disrupt what he has already planed. Kind of like going into the past and shooting your Father before you are conceived.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: free will - 2/7/2008 12:25:07 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
Finally, there comes a point where we cannot grasp the concept of free will and predestination.
I have never been able to understand why some Christians think that the co-existence of free will and predestination is so hard to grasp. Scripture teaches:
1. God gave men and angels freedom of moral (and other) choices.
2. God has not pre-determined anyone's fate, since the ability to chose has been given to men.
3. God fully knows the end from the beginning, regardless of what choices are made.
4. God had pre-determined some things regardless of what choices are made and there is no conflict here, since God's foreknowledge overrides everything.
5. God is indeed sovereign over his universe, yet He has not created robotic beings but human beings with the ability to choose good or evil.
What's so hard to grasp?
< Message edited by Ezra -- 2/7/2008 12:32:07 AM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: free will - 2/7/2008 12:26:54 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
Kind of like going into the past and shooting your Father before you are conceived.
Bob:
Is this what used to happen in Kansas in the Wild West?
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: free will - 2/7/2008 1:06:17 AM
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bob97
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Ezra,
I heard a story about a guy who went back to do that but the funny thing is he just disappeared.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: free will - 2/7/2008 12:29:39 PM
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evry1needsgod
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Hey Dustymb, sorry that is seems were all gainin' up on you. I don't mean to do that, and I apologize if I am. I really do appreciate your point of view. It was refreshing hearing very kind and factual debates about this subject with you. I used to go to a Baptist school, and my Bible teacher there was a Calvinist, who didn't really beleive in free will. But this guy was the most arrogant man I have ever come in contact with. He constantly yelled at me, and he would ask my opinion on issues, I'd give it to him, and then he'd tell me how stupid I was. I got so out of hand, that one day I could have called the police on him, but chose not to. Instead, I changed school. All of my thoughts and ideas about the Calvinistic, no free-will concept came from him, and I thought I should talk to others about it because who knows what mish-mosh he told me. So i really do appreciate you coming on here and voicing your opinion even though your outnumbered.
Heres the bottom line that I am draw to (no pun intended). The battle really comes down to the sovereignty of God. My belief is that God is totally sovereign over His creation, but allowing something to happen does not negate His sovereignty. But PLEASE don't think I'm an Arminian. Amrinians beleive that man's will dictates to God what He must do. That makes man the ultimate authority, and that makes God not in control. And that is not what I am saying.
Its like this. Your parent knows you are going to get hurt when you touch the hot stove. He/she repeatedly tells you no, and even intervenes a few times, but you are bound and determined to touch that stove. So, instead of the parent intervening, he/she stands back and watches you, knowing what you want to do, and what you are about to do. And sure enough, you touch the stove and suffer the consequences. The parents is right there to help you, to heal you, to comfort you, and then to chastise you by saying "I told you not to do that and you did anyway. I told you you would get hurt, but you didn't listen." Did the parent loose control? No. That parents was always in control of the situation even though, to some, it may seem as though the parent was not. And I think the same concept applies with this debate. God's sovereignty and man's free will can coincide with God ultimately being in control. That is possible.
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RE: free will - 2/7/2008 7:06:55 PM
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dustymb
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Hi evry1needsgod. I would like to comment about your teacher. I heard John Piper say that assent to sound doctrine doesn't save anyone. I agree and I would wonder if your old teacher had been saved if that was the kind of fruit he was bearing. I completely agree that God is sovereign and allows things to happen. That is the key to being sovereign in that He either looses or He restrains. I do assent to the fact that we make choices every day, and by all understanding that we have, these choices are free, but they are governed choices. In the unbelieving, they are governed by Satan and the flesh. They are not free but rather they are in bondage to sin. They can only make a choice between evils. For the believing, we have far more choices. We can choose to sin or to do the will of God; the good works He prepared in advance for us to do.
< Message edited by dustymb -- 2/7/2008 7:22:26 PM >
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RE: free will - 2/7/2008 7:28:22 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 366
Status: offline
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Well, I highly doubt he wasn't saved. He is a pastor of a church, and the administrator of the school. I just think he has some personality problems. Thank your for your explanation. I think that in a way we were agreeing, but did not realize it. Thanks again.
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RE: free will - 2/7/2008 8:54:43 PM
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noitulover
Posts: 95
Joined: 1/26/2008
Status: offline
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I'm back to say it again...GOD IS OMNISCIENT
But youses turn omniscience into a game of whatever you do is free will even if God knows you are going to do it and lets you do it was your choice. duh
There is nothing that is not predestinated in God's mind. He Knows the eternal past present and eternal future. He knows every thought you are going to have and how its going to look in your mind because it is preformatted in His mind. Or you would have no cognizance.
Free will is what we experience. To us it is freedom of choice. But God is omniscient. He knows what you will think and what you will do before hand. For this reason everything is already preformatted in God's mind. It is pre ordained in God's mind. Even if you change your mind 30 times toss a coin then ask a friend to make the decision for you when you are not looking then do the opposite, God already knew the outcome.
Respect God's nature. 
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RE: free will - 2/7/2008 9:05:17 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 6041
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: noitulover
Free will is what we experience. To us it is freedom of choice. But God is omniscient.
There's no contradiction here. God created man with the ability to choose from among options. Of course, He can and does control our environment, but our choices are freely made.
quote:
He knows what you will think and what you will do before hand.
Yes, of course. But that doesn't change the fact that though He knows beforehand what we will do or think, we still do it freely. Only if our choices were decided by God would we not be free. What is your opinion?
quote:
For this reason everything is already preformatted in God's mind. It is pre otrdained in God's mind. Even if you change your mind 30 times toss a coin then ask a friend to make the decision for you when you are not looking then do the opposite, God already knew the outcome.
Absolutely true. That still doesn't negate freedom of choice.
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RE: free will - 2/7/2008 9:37:23 PM
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noitulover
Posts: 95
Joined: 1/26/2008
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Thank you, FreeGrace
I like you.
Free will is always in terms of God's omniscience.
We cannot understand how we have freedom of choice if God already knows everything in His mind.
But we are aware God is God
We are finite. God is eternal.
We work from the present to the future.
God works from the future to form the past.
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RE: free will - 2/7/2008 11:09:07 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
Posts: 490
Joined: 1/11/2006
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quote:
God works from the future to form the past.
I like that noitulover!
_____________________________
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: free will - 2/7/2008 11:18:35 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1671
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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quote:
I completely agree that God is sovereign and allows things to happen. That is the key to being sovereign in that He either looses or He restrains. I do assent to the fact that we make choices every day, and by all understanding that we have, these choices are free, but they are governed choices. In the unbelieving, they are governed by Satan and the flesh. They are not free but rather they are in bondage to sin. They can only make a choice between evils. For the believing, we have far more choices. We can choose to sin or to do the will of God; the good works He prepared in advance for us to do.
Amen dustymb,
I can't disagree with your comment.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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