|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 10:29:39 PM
|
|
|
Sinner-Saint
Posts: 395
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Revelation 7:14 ISN'T about the rapture of the Church.
Right. It's about the aftermath of the Resurrection of the dead in Christ and the Rapture of those who will be still alive and will be left upon the Earth. Jesus will catch them up on the clouds on the Day of the Lord.
Revelation 7:14 shows the "wheat" having been delivered to the "barn" after Christ rescues them from the specific and unique Great Tribulation. Truly, they came out of it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 10:33:58 PM
|
|
|
Sinner-Saint
Posts: 395
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: carlkeigley
quote:
then why does John use a completely different listing of the twelve tribes of Israel?
This would take us back to Genesis 49 as Jacob spoke over the sons of Israel.
Reuben lost his birthright and his place of leadership.
The birthright went to Joseph.
The leadership went to Judah.
It's pretty complicated to explain with the western gentile mentality.
Joseph received the "double-portion" birthright becoming two tribes (Epraim and Mannaseh).
The lineage of legitimate kings comes from Judah as the sceptre is never to leave that tribe.
You forgot Dan. They are not mentioned either.
Now I don't mind if the 144,000 are Jewish, but there is a real question as to whether the 144,000 can be Jewish - if Jewish is defined by those who reject Christ!
That cannot be! The 144,000 are Firstfruits of the Harvest. The Harvest is for the Church (Elect).
I think the 144,000 are believers in Christ. Now they CAN be of Hebrew origin - but to say they are Jews (who don't believe in Jesus) is preposterous.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 10:41:34 PM
|
|
|
Lapidoth
Posts: 2956
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
|
quote:
I think the 144,000 are believers in Christ. Now they CAN be of Hebrew origin - but to say they are Jews (who don't believe in Jesus) is preposterous.
Only if we are ignorant of the times and seasons and the prophetic implications. Lev. 23
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
|
|
|
|
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 11:01:10 PM
|
|
|
Sinner-Saint
Posts: 395
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
I think the 144,000 are believers in Christ. Now they CAN be of Hebrew origin - but to say they are Jews (who don't believe in Jesus) is preposterous.
quote:
ORIGINAL: carlkeigley
Only if we are ignorant of the times and seasons and the prophetic implications. Lev. 23
Huh? That's not a cogent answer. I will not shade what is written in the Bible to conform to my eschatology.
The Festivals are important as a pattern for us to understand because they do conform to God's plan for the end-times - Colossians 2:16.
The Church was initiated nearly 2000 years ago on the Festival of Firstfruits. This festival is begun with the left horn of the Akedah ram.
The next event on the horizon is Rosh ha-Shanah: the Returning Anew! This is also known as the Festival of Trumpets. This TWO-DAY Holy Day is begun with the last trumpet - the corresponding right horn of the Akedah ram previously sacrificed in the Spring.
________________________________________
Now as to the 144,000 - they are Firstfruits. FACT. Firstfruits are OF the Harvest. FACT. The 144,000 are sealed with the name of the Son and the Father. FACT.
Therefore: they are believers in Christ and thus must be part of the Church. Now they can be of Hebrew origin - but they are not Jewish - if we define Jews as those who reject Christ and hold onto only the OT sacrificial system for their salvation.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/15/2008 11:34:30 PM
|
|
|
cybrjewls
Posts: 1420
Status: offline
|
Blessings! I believe that the festival of the firstfruits is prophetically regarding these 144,000 chosen people who were purchased as firstfruits to God through Jesus Christ, and that they are, indeed, of the nation of New Jerusalem Israel Messianic believers as well, as is written. They follow Jesus wherever He goes.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
I think the 144,000 are believers in Christ. Now they CAN be of Hebrew origin - but to say they are Jews (who don't believe in Jesus) is preposterous.
quote:
ORIGINAL: carlkeigley
Only if we are ignorant of the times and seasons and the prophetic implications. Lev. 23
Huh? That's not a cogent answer. I will not shade what is written in the Bible to conform to my eschatology.
The Festivals are important as a pattern for us to understand because they do conform to God's plan for the end-times - Colossians 2:16.
The Church was initiated nearly 2000 years ago on the Festival of Firstfruits. This festival is begun with the left horn of the Akedah ram.
The next event on the horizon is Rosh ha-Shanah: the Returning Anew! This is also known as the Festival of Trumpets. This TWO-DAY Holy Day is begun with the last trumpet - the corresponding right horn of the Akedah ram previously sacrificed in the Spring.
________________________________________
Now as to the 144,000 - they are Firstfruits. FACT. Firstfruits are OF the Harvest. FACT. The 144,000 are sealed with the name of the Son and the Father. FACT.
Therefore: they are believers in Christ and thus must be part of the Church. Now they can be of Hebrew origin - but they are not Jewish - if we define Jews as those who reject Christ and hold onto only the OT sacrificial system for their salvation.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/16/2008 8:59:26 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 5013
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Therefore: they are believers in Christ and thus must be part of the Church. Now they can be of Hebrew origin - but they are not Jewish - if we define Jews as those who reject Christ and hold onto only the OT sacrificial system for their salvation.
I have only heard one group distinguish between Hebrew and Jew - and that is the KKK. Other than those (who do so for warped reasons), I can't imagine why anyone would feel a need to redefine the terms - unless you've been reading too much of LaHaye or Lindsay.
By bloodline, Hebrews and Jews are the same thing. A Jew can be a believer in Jesus as Messiah or they may choose to remain lost just like a Gentile. There are only two distinctions that have eternal significance: believer and non-believer, saved or lost. Jews/Hebrews fit into either category and still retain their bloodline.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/16/2008 9:22:12 AM
|
|
|
prophetlady
Posts: 73
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline
|
I was not being like the KKK, I recognize the fact that some Jews or Hebrews believe in Christ, but some DO NOT.
the twelve tribes of Israel are as follows
Asher
Benjamin etc.....
if you believe we stem from Adam and Eve, then those 144,ooo are the lineages of those tribes. they will surround the four creatures and their elders, any views of what those four creatures and elders will be?
I stand firm, I believe they will surround the Church of Jesus, because it says the four creatures will worship the LAMB, so if someone does not believe in Christ, how would they surround the four creatures who do?
please respond
|
|
|
|
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/16/2008 9:28:40 AM
|
|
|
stolar1962
Posts: 33
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
You can interpret it all you want, but in the end, the clear declaration of the passage in question marks the 144,000 as Jew. The passage says they come from every tribe of Israel, not from all the nations.
BTW I don't know if this person is pre trib, mill dispy or whatever, but the argument ranks close to the position of JWs. If you are not willing to accept Scripture at face value, or present a better argument than "cuz I said so..." then there is really nothing to talk about. This is no prophet.
[Edited by moderator - harassing users]
< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 1/16/2008 12:48:54 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/16/2008 9:33:09 AM
|
|
|
prophetlady
Posts: 73
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline
|
I thought the HOUSE rules was not to pick directly at an individual but to the posting?
I stand firm, they will surround the four creatures who worship the LAMB, right?
so what are those four creatures who are worshiping JESUS
|
|
|
|
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/16/2008 9:35:17 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 5013
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetlady
I was not being like the KKK, I recognize the fact that some Jews or Hebrews believe in Christ, but some DO NOT.
the twelve tribes of Israel are as follows
Asher
Benjamin etc.....
I was not addressing your post (unless you are also member Sinner-Saint) and I did not call Sinner-Saint of being like the KKK, just that I've encountered nobody else than them to make such a claim.
quote:
if you believe we stem from Adam and Eve
Remember Noah and the ark? Three sons & wives emerged with him. Only ONE of those sons produced offspring that led to Abraham and the semite people. The other two sons produced the lines of Gentiles.
Where do you get your material? Some of it obviously doesn't come from an indepth study of actual scripture.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/16/2008 9:37:16 AM
|
|
|
prophetlady
Posts: 73
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline
|
sorry Jimbo I can admit when I am WRONG< I thought you were calling me KKK, thank the Lord I can admit when I am WRONG,
so what are the four creatures worshiping the LAMB JIMBO?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/16/2008 9:43:38 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 5013
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
The 4 creatures are described in detail in Revelation 4. What do they sound like to YOU?
"before the throne there was something like a sea of glass, like crystal; and in the center and around the throne, four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind.
The first creature was like a lion, and the second creature like a calf, and the third creature had a face like that of a man, and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle.
And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME."
And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/16/2008 10:22:32 AM
|
|
|
Lapidoth
Posts: 2956
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
|
quote:
each one of them having six wings,
almost sounds like the seraphim. lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
|
|
|
|
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/16/2008 10:23:26 AM
|
|
|
prophetlady
Posts: 73
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline
|
they sound like denominations of Churchs to me, since it says ELDERS. So what are the Elders of the four creatures?
do you not believe in symbolism?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/16/2008 10:28:40 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 5013
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetlady
they sound like denominations of Churchs to me, since it says ELDERS. So what are the Elders of the four creatures?
do you not believe in symbolism?
I must not have your special translation. The four creatures are said to have elders WHERE? There is no connection between the 24 elders and the creatures. They are two separate groups.
Sometimes something is what it seems and not a symbol.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/16/2008 10:32:30 AM
|
|
|
prophetlady
Posts: 73
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline
|
they surround the four creatures and their elders, it is in revelation 14
what are those elders? Elders of the creatures right?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/16/2008 11:19:13 AM
|
|
|
upNORTder
Posts: 212
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline
|
I believe that the 144,000 will be from Jewish believers of Christ like the Jews for Jesus.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/16/2008 11:31:52 AM
|
|
|
prophetlady
Posts: 73
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline
|
. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/16/2008 11:42:06 AM
|
|
|
upNORTder
Posts: 212
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline
|
The elders are the twelve jewish patriarchs and the twelve disciples (also jewish).
|
|
|
|
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/16/2008 11:56:46 AM
|
|
|
prophetlady
Posts: 73
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline
|
revelation 7 # 11
all the ANGELS were standing around the throne and around the elders and four living creatures
you thought that the creature could be seraphim? it mentions them as separate things in this verse. Angels are one thing, the four creatures are another. hmmm and it says ALL the angels, not a few
|
|
|
|
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/16/2008 11:56:59 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 5013
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetlady
. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
There still is no connection other than that they were all before the throne.
Did you notice that the creatures and the elders didn't sing the new song - but that it was sung before them? That's because the 144,000 who were able to learn it were of the lineage of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob.
Interesting, huh?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: 144,000 NOT JEWS - 1/16/2008 12:01:52 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 5013
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetlady
revelation 7 # 11
all the ANGELS were standing around the throne and around the elders and four living creatures
you thought that the creature could be seraphim? it mentions them as separate things in this verse. Angels are one thing, the four creatures are another. hmmm and it says ALL the angels, not a few
Do you know that the word translated angel means messenger? Unless obviously something else, even a human can be an "angel" - like in the Lord's messages to the angels to the 7 churches. That was an obvious reference to the pastors of each church.
So, ALL the messengers (angels who go forth from God with His messages) were with the 4 CREATURES and 4 elders.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
