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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/29/2008 6:57:59 AM
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bjay0801
Posts: 135
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That was a good answer!  I keep saying that if all thing were fullfilled, then it's okay to commit incest, fornication, adultery, ect, ect. Theres that word "fulfilled" again. Luke 22:16
For I say unto you *, I will not any more eat thereof *, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
I guess since Jesus has not had paaover with us (aka the marriage supper/wedding feast) all things have not been fulfilled.
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/29/2008 8:44:09 AM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
You don't get it. The furor is over people telling the Church God wants us to keep the literal festivals, and in effect bring us back under the authority and supervision of the written law (with all it's promises of blessings and punishments for not doing so) and away from the more meaningful and beneficial understanding of the festival observances and ceremonies.
And, secondly, for telling the Church we're serving a false god by having the mere presence of an Easter egg or a Christmas tree in our house. That is only true for the person who really thinks that constitutes worshipping a false god, not for us who know that it's akin to eating food that originally was offered up in sacrifice to a pagan god, which Paul says cannot be defiled in and of itself by the intent of the original purpose that a pagan set it aside for. But it is true that it is defiled for the person who can't grasp this truth.
Greetings,
That has no reference whatsoever to food, food is not a God, food is a provision and we are not to created a likeness to anything created, provisional or otherwise
…for example….the mimic of the RCC, creates an image of the MK in its established ecclesia, by the worship of pagan ritual, as if that is how it is going to be in Heaven….. 
RCC? MK? No need to go there with me.
Anyway...no reference to food???
"4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
7But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do. (1 Cor. 8)
This is loaded with doctrine. I could fill up a post with the truths contained in this passage of scripture. The two things that stand out are 1) food in and of itself cannot defile a person. Assuming you're not purposely seeking to worship a pagan deity, which Christians are not, conscience is what makes something unpure for a person ('to the pure all things are pure', as Paul says), not the original intent and purpose of the person who offered up the food.
Secondly, eating or not eating the food in question has no bearing whatsoever with your closeness to God. All these truths apply to an easter egg, which we are told, hundreds of years ago were part of pagan worship. Paul says I'm free to eat that food which was originally sacrificed (offered up) in honor of a pagan deity (assuming all that stuff is true, which it very well may be). My responsibility as a Christian is to either not do it, or do it in secret to keep someone with a weaker faith from being embolded to violate their conscience.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/29/2008 1:52:55 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1746
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quote:
l’ll bring the bitter herbs!! I love that stuff...or is it against the law to eat them after the Passover??
Not at all, all year round to your heart content. Grandpa couldn’t live without that stuff used to put tear-squeezing horseradish on everything. Considering what how bitter gradma- may both their souls enjoying the rest in heaven!- could make his existence at times, it must have tasted sweet as honey to him, in comparison:)
Has medicinal uses,too;) My Hassidic** neighbor, very strict Law observer, who loves practicing drinking his weight in alcohol, loves it for hangover in the morning,+ little hot red pepper, give his some haroset if available, lemon , etrog, anything sour that dear mensh would have such a happy look on him as if he sees Messiah!
**for those not fluent in Hebrew or Yiddish: Word Hassidic means a Jew who is highly proficient and skillful in the art of pleasing the flesh while creating the illusion of extreme piety, Law observancy and holiness. Some people - from Messianic or other denoms- often tend to exibit the similar( in idea) approach to the Law keeping…
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/29/2008 2:02:17 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1746
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
Secondly, eating or not eating the food in question has no bearing whatsoever with your closeness to God.
Sponge rules!
Darling, that should answer your question
quote:
Did Christ not continue to live as He was raised in Jewish Tradition, continuing to honor the feasts and observe, what I have heard some of you refer to as moral laws? (Asking because I am not sure) It would then seem to me that if we are to be Christ like, we should also do this as well. So where exactly does legalism fit into this? Isn't going against God's Word rebellion?
Law obiding turns into Legalism precisely in the moment when moral laws are getting neglected. Many Pharisees were very obedient to the Letter of the Law forsaking the Spirit,not showing any fruit of it, like Love.
Love law is harder to obey for it can’t be measured in actual deeds, like the Law of Sabbath keeping, let’s say. We can’t make a list of things one can do that will prove he acts in Love. While obedience to literal Laws can be faked by pharisees it’s truly hard to fake true love, as in longsuffering, patience, self-control, kindness….
Amazing paradox that we witness right here - as a general rule, The more fervently one pushes the Law obedience the less love for brethren he/she shows! The more liberal the position of a poster is, the more Love he exhibits. The strictest pushers of law keeping already talked themselves into (no pun) law-breaking and were send into oblivion, permanent or temporary.
Don’t get me wrong, they insist on importance of Love, but its mostly lip service, once actual love in their interpretation rears it’s head..
I marvel at such phenomenon…Why? Any thoughts ?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/29/2008 7:56:26 PM
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Bluethread
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This thread is so entertaining!
quote:
Odeliya:
Amazing paradox that we witness right here - as a general rule, The more fervently one pushes the Law obedience the less love for brethren he/she shows! The more liberal the position of a poster is, the more Love he exhibits. The strictest pushers of law keeping already talked themselves into (no pun) law-breaking and were send into oblivion, permanent or temporary.
That's interesting. I haven't seen one post in this thread that has condemned anyone to "oblivion, permanent or temporary" for not keeping Torah, yet here we are told, "The more liberal the position of a poster is, the more Love he exhibits."
quote:
Love law is harder to obey for it can’t be measured in actual deeds, like the Law of Sabbath keeping, let’s say.
I would submit that it is much easier to keep an undefined "Law of Love" than Ha Torah which gives us clear examples of what love is. I have never heard any Torah observant person say that the written Torah has all of the answers. I have only heard statements like that from "new testiment believers". The written Torah only give us the framework of a just society.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/29/2008 8:24:49 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1746
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I haven't seen one post in this thread that has condemned anyone to "oblivion, permanent or temporary" for not keeping Torah,
Blue, that is not what i meant. I will explain :
Amazing paradox that we witness right here - as a general rule, The more fervently one pushes the Law obedience(literal Torah keeping) the less love for brethren( less obedience to moral Law) he/she shows!
The more liberal the position of a poster is (if he is not considering keeping all the laws Messianics attempt to keep to be absolutely necessary), the more Love he exhibits.( not trying to call his brethren pagans, for starters)
The strictest pushers of law keeping already talked themselves into (no pun) law-breaking ( disobeyed the laws of conduct on this thread) and were send into oblivion ( banned for getting personal and insults ) , permanently or temporary.
< Message edited by Odeliya -- 4/29/2008 8:43:58 PM >
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/29/2008 8:29:23 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1746
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I would submit that it is much easier to keep an undefined "Law of Love" than Ha Torah which gives us clear examples of what love is. I have never heard any Torah observant person say that the written Torah has all of the answers. I have only heard statements like that from "new testiment believers". The written Torah only give us the framework of a just society.
I disagree. Keeping the literal Torah rules is easier then showing Love, compassion, longsuffering, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
I tried both, trust me - the latter is incomparibly harder.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/30/2008 7:27:26 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2055
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, we are off and running again. He is talking about the "cermonial"(rabbinic) washing of hands. Yes, it is not the eating of pork that makes one unclean, it's the disregard for Adonai.s commands that makes it unclean.
So you are disagreeing with Jesus ?
Is that what Jesus said ?.......let's check-
Matthew 15:16-20 (King James Version)
16And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Sounds like Jesus is saying that a
dirty mouth is caused by a dirty heart.
Changing the menu is EASY, but the heart...
_____________________________
"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/30/2008 7:32:32 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2055
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I would submit that it is much easier to keep an undefined "Law of Love" than Ha Torah which gives us clear examples of what love is. I have never heard any Torah observant person say that the written Torah has all of the answers. I have only heard statements like that from "new testiment believers". The written Torah only give us the framework of a just society.
What is a "new testament" believer ?
Is anyone on the thread one ?
How do you know ?
The New Testament contains the Gospel(s)
of Jesus Christ. Do you follow these ?
Why the disdain for the NT if you adhere to ?
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"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/30/2008 7:36:15 AM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
This thread is so entertaining!
Not really, it's thread "lite" actually. 
Majority of spiritual giants never come here.
Too remedial and mundane for grace fanatics !
_____________________________
"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/30/2008 7:41:48 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2055
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
That was a good answer! I keep saying that if all thing were fullfilled, then it's okay to commit incest, fornication, adultery, ect, ect. Theres that word "fulfilled" again. Luke 22:16
For I say unto you *, I will not any more eat thereof *, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
I guess since Jesus has not had paaover with us (aka the marriage supper/wedding feast) all things have not been fulfilled.
HUH ?.......let's see what Jesus said !!!
Are you implying Jesus failed ?
Did Jesus fulfill The Law ?.......yes
Matthew 5:17 (King James Version)
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
_____________________________
"WHOSOEVER"are the elect-
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/30/2008 8:14:24 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1636
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, we are off and running again. He is talking about the "cermonial"(rabbinic) washing of hands. Yes, it is not the eating of pork that makes one unclean, it's the disregard for Adonai.s commands that makes it unclean.
So you are disagreeing with Jesus ?
Is that what Jesus said ?.......let's check-
Matthew 15:16-20 (King James Version)
16And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Sounds like Jesus is saying that a
dirty mouth is caused by a dirty heart.
Changing the menu is EASY, but the heart...
Greetings,
I have to disagree with this no one point
20These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
I remember a time when eating in a Chinese restaurant when one of those little red peppers ended up being chewed,
I believe food in this instance caused to me commit by my words all the above at once, in the restaurant ...as written
19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 
But I still left a tip, and thanked the hostess.
............Unfortunately I had to take the food home and eat it, that’s how HOT it was!! 
But that was before I was saved, …
Now that I have been saved and if it happened again, the question is ....would I do it again…..  .......... Probably!!
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 4/30/2008 3:31:40 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/30/2008 9:10:14 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1146
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Law obiding turns into Legalism precisely in the moment when moral laws are getting neglected. Many Pharisees were very obedient to the Letter of the Law forsaking the Spirit,not showing any fruit of it, like Love.
Love law is harder to obey for it can’t be measured in actual deeds, like the Law of Sabbath keeping, let’s say. We can’t make a list of things one can do that will prove he acts in Love. While obedience to literal Laws can be faked by pharisees it’s truly hard to fake true love, as in longsuffering, patience, self-control, kindness….
Amazing paradox that we witness right here - as a general rule, The more fervently one pushes the Law obedience the less love for brethren he/she shows! The more liberal the position of a poster is, the more Love he exhibits. The strictest pushers of law keeping already talked themselves into (no pun) law-breaking and were send into oblivion, permanent or temporary.
Don’t get me wrong, they insist on importance of Love, but its mostly lip service, once actual love in their interpretation rears it’s head..
I marvel at such phenomenon…Why? Any thoughts ?
I've been purposely trying to address various posts in order (as time permits) but I have to break the order here to say this is precisely the thing that converted me from relating to God through a sense of law.
Even though I wasn't a literal law-keeper, I approached everything about the Christian life from the view of the 'to do' list of mainline Christianity (witnessing, tithing, church attendance, participation...). I, along with so many others in the Church, held these things to be the epitome of our duties as Christians and what it meant to please God. It wasn't until I started learning about character, and what truly pleases God, that I could see what a beligerant, legalistic jerk I really was, and how the Christian life I took so much pride in was actually missing the mark by light-years.
I learned God was not interested in any sacrifice I made until I first obeyed Him in imitating the character of Christ (love, joy, peace, patience, long-suffering...). And, as it turned out, the 'sacrifices' of my service I was so sure were required (at risk of being disobedient to God's 'law') were largely voluntary anyway (not required as a matter of law). Wow! Talk about a wake up call!
And ever since I've been learning what it means to truly please God. He's not interested in the external trappings of our worship. He's interested in the heart that is devoted to and controlled by peace, compassion, forgiveness, self-control... That's the kind of worshipper God desires. If your heart is controlled by these things (as opposed to the flesh) you will automatically fulfill the requirements (the underlying intent) of the written law, and that is to 'love your neighbor as yourself', and to 'do no harm to your neighbor'.
Going to Church meant meeting together to learn how to be like Christ in character, not how to properly meet together for the sake of fulfilling some required method and procedure for congregating that served no practical purpose other than 'this is the way it's supposed to be done'. (The time of 'this is how it's supposed to be done' had it's time and season. That time and season has come in Christ. And for all who believe, Christ has fulfilled the requirements of that appointment perfectly, once and for all, by joining us together in the Holy Spirit).
Instead of trying to legislate (make a law for) every possible scenario of this human life, which is impossible but would be necessary to truly please Him, God has made a new way to serve Him. This new way means relating to and serving God through a changed character, not a list of written laws. The list of laws found in the Old Covenant is but a mere subset of what it means to serve God according to a changed heart. A changed heart will do much more than just the commands of the Bible, and in the sincere and true way that Jesus said New Covenant people would, 'in Spirit and in truth'.
For all of us Christian's ernestly desiring to know God's will for our lives, and who want to be prepared to meet God one day with a boat-load of righteous works of the Spirit, the fruit of the Spirit is the motivation and source of all good and pleasing works that God will reward one day, not the literal commands of how to worship God externally. No more wondering about if I pleased God and if my life will be acceptable to Him in the end.
Here is one of those liberating passages of scripture that set my heart free from the bondage and insecurity of trying to relate to God through a sense of law (for me it was legislating the 'to do' list of the modern evangelical Chruch, not the literal commands of the OT)):
"17...love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. (1 John 4)
This is hardly a license to sin. This is what it means to live in New Covenant freedom and liberty.
Literal law keeping is not the 'love' that God is seeking. The love that God is seeking in a person is the character of Christ expressed in various deeds of righteousness (which may or may not be expressly written in the Old law). He is not looking for external activities that are merely defined as obedient. Do you see the difference? There is a big difference.
Thank God for the New Covenant.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 4/30/2008 9:23:39 AM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/30/2008 2:31:37 PM
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bjay0801
Posts: 135
Joined: 12/10/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
That was a good answer! I keep saying that if all thing were fullfilled, then it's okay to commit incest, fornication, adultery, ect, ect. Theres that word "fulfilled" again. Luke 22:16
For I say unto you *, I will not any more eat thereof *, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
I guess since Jesus has not had paaover with us (aka the marriage supper/wedding feast) all things have not been fulfilled.
HUH ?.......let's see what Jesus said !!!
Are you implying Jesus failed ?
Did Jesus fulfill The Law ?.......yes
Matthew 5:17 (King James Version)
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Keep reading. . . Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till * * heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till * * all be fulfilled.
Last time I checked, heaven and earth are still here. We are free from condemnation when we sin and we do sin; we at least I do mess up. Thankfully we do have grace for those many many times that we mess up. Fulfill does not mean done away with..to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment (this taken out of crosswalks definition)
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 7:31:03 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1636
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
Literal law keeping is not the 'love' that God is seeking. The love that God is seeking in a person is the character of Christ expressed in various deeds of righteousness (which may or may not be expressly written in the Old law). He is not looking for external activities that are merely defined as obedient. Do you see the difference? There is a big difference.
Thank God for the New Covenant.
Greetings,
quote:
The love that God is seeking in a person is the character of Christ expressed in various deeds of righteousness (which may or may not be expressly written in the Old law)
The character of Christ is not expressed in various deeds .....it is expressed by His relationship to the Father, If one were to keep it in its proper context, Jesus in the scriptures Himseslf tells us those things, the various deeds are a given.
Joh 14:10 - Show Context
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
quote:
(which may or may not be expressly written in the Old law)
It was all written in the Old Law,
If it were not.... then we are not speaking of Jesus, we are speaking of the various deeds which are of works and is very RC.
How ....as the scriptures say, ....how can Jesus who was born "under the Law", perform righteousness by the Law if the Father who dwells in Him does not do the works??
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 5/1/2008 7:38:21 AM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 9:42:34 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1146
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
That was a good answer! I keep saying that if all thing were fullfilled, then it's okay to commit incest, fornication, adultery, ect, ect. Theres that word "fulfilled" again. Luke 22:16
For I say unto you *, I will not any more eat thereof *, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
I guess since Jesus has not had paaover with us (aka the marriage supper/wedding feast) all things have not been fulfilled.
HUH ?.......let's see what Jesus said !!!
Are you implying Jesus failed ?
Did Jesus fulfill The Law ?.......yes
Matthew 5:17 (King James Version)
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Keep reading. . . Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till * * heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till * * all be fulfilled.
Last time I checked, heaven and earth are still here. We are free from condemnation when we sin and we do sin; we at least I do mess up. Thankfully we do have grace for those many many times that we mess up. Fulfill does not mean done away with..to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment (this taken out of crosswalks definition)
You have some more explaining to do. It sounds like you are now saying the fulfillment has occurred. According to your definition, has Jesus 'fulfilled' what He said He was going to fulfill, or not? If the fulfillment has occurred (and it sounds like now you are saying it has) then the way is clear to change the law (which it most certainly has according to Hebrews).
How can you claim that 'fulfill' in the passage means to restore true unpolluted law keeping (meaning minus the Rabbinal traditions) and yet still claim fulfillment hasn't occurred yet as evidenced by the fact that the earth is still here?
Explain.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 10:32:52 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1146
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
Literal law keeping is not the 'love' that God is seeking. The love that God is seeking in a person is the character of Christ expressed in various deeds of righteousness (which may or may not be expressly written in the Old law). He is not looking for external activities that are merely defined as obedient. Do you see the difference? There is a big difference.
Thank God for the New Covenant.
Greetings,
quote:
The love that God is seeking in a person is the character of Christ expressed in various deeds of righteousness (which may or may not be expressly written in the Old law)
The character of Christ is not expressed in various deeds .....it is expressed by His relationship to the Father, If one were to keep it in its proper context, Jesus in the scriptures Himseslf tells us those things, the various deeds are a given.
Joh 14:10 - Show Context
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
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(which may or may not be expressly written in the Old law)
It was all written in the Old Law,
If it were not.... then we are not speaking of Jesus, we are speaking of the various deeds which are of works and is very RC.
How ....as the scriptures say, ....how can Jesus who was born "under the Law", perform righteousness by the Law if the Father who dwells in Him does not do the works??
LG
What's the difference between various deeds of righteousness and one's relationship to the Father? Our deeds are the manifested evidence of our relationship to the Father. There's no other way to measure one's relationship to the Father except by how they love (remember, Biblical love is action, not feelings). I've got lots of scripture to back this up.
Where do I find 'going the extra mile', and 'turn the other cheek' in the Old law? If these things are RC, then we can conclude that Jesus was RC in that regard.
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 1:34:05 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1146
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
...Those who say the Law is irrelevant hate the light, and do not come to the light, lest "his deeds" should be exposed. …..
Now in Christian circles this is a rebuke of the conviction of the HS ....thinking that because they are in Christ they can bear false witness, create images in the worship other gods, etc etc.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this reason……. many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord ...that we may not be condemned with the world.
It looks like the Law either chastens or condemns, but to have either… the Law must exist.
Because "deeds are made manifest" by the light, in both circles…
for “whatever makes manifest” our deeds ….is light.
If there was no Law, then how can that any of that be accomplished and why are so many sick???  ...
I think what you are trying to say here is if we are to judge ourselves what standard of measure do we use if the law has been abolished?
The key to understanding life in the New Covenant is that the believer is now ruled, or supervised, by the principles of the Spirit, not the letter of the law.
"Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." (Galatians 3:25)
My supervisor for daily living is no longer the written code of the law, but the principles of the Spirit at work in me. These principles--do not envy, do not be proud, do not be jealous, be humble, be forgiving, and so on--easily fulfill what the law sought to do and then some, and that was to protect you from me, and me from you (love does no harm/ love is the fulfillment of the law).
You are going way out of bounds to make the 1 Cor. 11 passages Paul uses to correct the abuses in the Corinthian Church to support literal law observance. Our conduct towards each other is now governed by a short list of character traits of the Spirit (peace, joy, love, long-suffering...) that we apply to daily living as necessary. Jesus lived out all of these traits of the Spirit and we are exhorted to imitate these qualities in these passages:
"...if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22"He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." 23When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. (1 Peter 2)
The key to understanding life in the New Covenant is understanding the new way that God has provided to relate to Him, and which easily meets and exceeds the requirements of the written law. This new way cuts through all the deceitful externals and goes right to the heart. Instead of trying to legislate every single possible scenario in this human life, God has given us the power of the Holy Spirit to have a changed character which in turn seeks the well-being of the people around us and guides our behavior. Our reliance is on the impulses of the Spirit within us (the fruit of the Spirit rising up in us), not a memorized list of how to respond in various situations.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 5/1/2008 1:40:10 PM >
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 2:20:19 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1636
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
What's the difference between various deeds of righteousness and one's relationship to the Father? Our deeds are the manifested evidence of our relationship to the Father. There's no other way to measure one's relationship to the Father except by how they love (remember, Biblical love is action, not feelings). I've got lots of scripture to back this up.
Where do I find 'going the extra mile', and 'turn the other cheek' in the Old law?
Greetings,
quote:
What's the difference between various deeds of righteousness and one's relationship to the Father?
Deeds have a way of becoming a type of legalism in itself, or an obligation, which is also a way to measure one's relationship to the Father.
I mean as the passage in Acts 9:36-43 shows us …..good works and charitable deeds does not save a person which is evident in verse 39….nor does it trump and take that Glory from the Lord……where the key in verse 42 in Acts 9:36-43 and the principal are one in the same in
John 11: 41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, "Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42 And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, …….that they may believe that You sent Me."
Where as in Acts 9 verse 42 it is written 42 And it became known throughout all Joppa, and many believed on the Lord. And in verse 42 in John 11, that they may believe that You sent Me
For example
……Islam for instance, depending on which way the scales are tipping determines good deeds
Good works and charitable deeds misused only establish how they love one's self in relationship to the Father…..
Even sinners believe in good works, but deny where it comes from,
For example
John 10:30 I and My Father are one."
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man …make Yourself God."
quote:
Where do I find 'going the extra mile', and 'turn the other cheek' in the Old law?
Jesus made it very clear that the work He preformed was from the Father, thereby 'going that extra mile'
…….Which is why I would hardly call Jesus...a RC, merely on their obligation to perform, whereby if one is not careful that obligation to perform good works whose seed is in it according to its kind may not necessarily be from the Father and that principal works on each side of the coin, but how would the unknowing person on the receiving end know that difference??
The truth is they don’t!
The system today being presented in Jesus name is just as corrupt as the Mosaic system became under religious or the Mosaic discipleship.
IMHO
Good works and charitable deeds are a poor rendition to establish any measure in connection with the Father
…….And as we can see today with all the new age- isms….. That it is ok to do good works,
(Funny after all this time, they are just now figuring that out)
BUT to be consistent with the Gospel account as we see in John 10, ….as it is today ……. don’t mention the name of God, (Jesus)… or simply replace them with another or an addition to.
And that is coming (being taught) from somewhere, whether or not one wishes to see it … 
LG
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Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/1/2008 5:35:07 PM
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SpongeBlog
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