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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/25/2008 2:42:37 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
It's funny how we argue for 10 commandments, not 9, but the truth is Jesus Himself narrowed them all down to 2. And even that is really only 1 command when you consider that, practically speaking, loving God is loving your neighbor.
LOVE. How simple it sounds. 
De 5:10
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
De 6:5
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
De 10:19
Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
This was nothing new. He quoted what was God's directions and instructions. In Hebrew, this is called the shema, which means to hear, do, and obey. This is a prayer that has been sai for thousands years. All Jesus and Paul did was use what the people had been saying for years and telling them to put it into practice. Noone said do this and nothing else. Jesus said if you do this then it will have been like you HAVE done everything else.
"7Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining." (1 John 2:7-8)
The old command was veiled (seen in darkness) under the law. The irony of the law is that it didn't move a person to the Spirit of the law. It couldn't shine the full light of the truth of God's kind of love. Only now in the Holy Spirit does the old command become a new command, visible in Jesus Christ.
A person risks the same danger of missing the full light of the truth if they try to relate to God through a sense of law instead of the new way of the Spirit. It seems many people can't tell the difference between the old and new ways. I think it's just simple education to get a person pointed in the direction of the new.
Many people don't understand keeping the law doesn't automatically equate to walking in the Spirit. And, furthermore, many people don't understand that just because you have the Holy Spirit in salvation that everything you now do is the result of that indwelling Spirit. Nothing could be further from the truth.
We can't ignore the significance of what it means to have the law written on stone (the old way) vs. having the law written on the heart (the new way). It isn't automatic simply because you are born again. We grow into it through knowlege. What do you think God is working in us day by day, month to month, and year to year--drive 30 MPH because that's what the law is, or drive 30 MPH because you don't want to endanger your neighbor's life?
You see it's not so much a matter of what you do as much as it is a matter of why you do it. Law dictates and governs the 'what'. The Spirit dictates and governs the 'why'. And it is the 'why' that determines what works are truly pleasing to God. When your 'why' is correct you will not be found negligent in matters of 'what'.
Deciding that you are going to be led by law is so deceiving. It gives the appearance that you have been pleasing to God, when in fact you may have not been very pleasing at all. No point in boasting about driving the speed limit when you really don't have any concern for children playing in the area, and were just simply obeying the law. God is looking for new creations, not white washed tombstones full of dead men's bones.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/25/2008 2:59:00 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1014
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
quote:
Now, please answer my question. When I or my wife has a bodily discharge as defined by the law of Leviticus 15, but we don't isolate ourselves or our things to avoid making others unclean, and we do not perform the required cleansing procedures, did the law change?
I will do my best to answer this one. The law did not change, we did. Does that mean that we can just do what we please? Does that mean we can change the scriptures to fit our theological beliefs? No. We are the ones who need to change. Espescialy since God does not change. Remember that women did not have the sanitary products that we have today and husbands and wives are still not supposed to come together during her cycle so it is a good time to seperate (in the same house) for fasting and prayer. This is (in my opinion and I could be wrong) what I believe Paul was making reference to in 1 Corinthians 7. Also remember that there is no priesthood for one to show themselves to to be declared clean so the husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the man and both husband and wife are covered. Also remember that where there is blood (in those days) there can be disease such as the black plague that ravaged Europe during the Dark Ages and because the Jews were keeping God's directions and instrucions were unaffected by the plague and were therefore blamed by the church for the plague. The things that we consider unthinkable now (ie having relations during sickness, leaving a dead body in ones house, touching a diseased ravaged dead body without protection, ect) the rest of the world had no problems with. A woman still has to cleanse herself before coming together with her husband in case there are still blood clots ect in her body. God does not want us to be like the world which is the theme of the commandments. Ever heard of a woman being on the rag? Or how bout our righteousness being as of a filthy rag? Wonder where that came from? What were women using to stop the flow of blood? Why filthy rags. I would not be happy if my wife's flow "flowed" onto our bed. That realy would make it unclean. Some of these things are common sense. Just look at the historical context and look at what we do today and let's at least try to do what God said.
This sounds like a rationalization for not keeping the letter of the law (the truth) that you and others defend so adamantly. And that's why I'm using this to make you see it means nothing to defend a literal Sabbath or Feast, or whatever, and then turn right around and ignore plain black and white (as Lap likes it) unconditional commands on what to do when you have an emission of fluid.
No reasons or conditions are given in these laws of discharges. They are what they are. I'm using your argument, not mine. I also want to help people understand that it's possible that laws can be fulfilled and no longer require literal fulfillment on our part. These laws of uncleanness are a perfect example. All the other laws of worship that had to be fulfilled for a person to remain in fellowship with God (not separated or quarantined away from the presence of God) are also fulfilled by the indwelling Holy Spirit, once for all.
The burden once was clearly on the person to fulfill the requirements for fellowship and closeness to God. Add to that your natural inclination to be in an almost constant state of separation from God, that you can do nothing about (bodily discharges, etc.) and you got a pretty bleak and unbearable situation between you and God.
But now in the Holy Spirit, God has met all the requirements of the worship laws for us (all we gotta do is believe) and in effect released us from those laws that hindered us from approaching Him (not brought us closer). He didn't abolish them, He fulfilled them perfectly, one time, for all time, and in so doing released me from the burden of doing that myself day after day, year after year, releasing me to now enjoy unhindered, unqualified, face to face fellowship with Him. The law which once stood between me and God, opposing me, has now been removed, it's conditions and requirements having been fully met. And any law that has been fulfilled, in effect no longer has authority over me. I no longer languish under the laws of separation found in the Old Covenant.
Now, the only outstanding debt I have is the 'continuing debt to love', as Paul says. That's the part of the law I actively seek to literally fulfill (and much more). And even those requirements of the law find their fulfillment in the Holy Spirit at work in me in all my daily situations as I learn more and more to submit to His grace at work in me.
Thank God for the surpassing glory of the New Covenant.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 5/25/2008 3:23:46 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/25/2008 9:55:00 PM
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bjay0801
Posts: 144
Joined: 12/10/2007
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Unfortunatley, you missed my meaning. I said that if our theology does not match scripture then our theology needs to change not the scripture. If God is a spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. What is truth? According to the scriptures,
Ps 119:142
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Ps 119:151
Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.
Joh 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh * * profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
So, Jesus, being the word and equal with God says the words that He speaks are spirit and life. Everything I said in my former post can be found in scriptures and in history. So tell me, which one is inaccurate? No one is justifying anything.
1Jo 3:11
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jo 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jo 1:5
And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
2Jo 1:6
And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/25/2008 10:26:12 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2433
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
I mean, if I were Adam in garden and the first thing I ever saw was Eve after a good sleep and before the fig-leaf blanket, I would have name her ....WOW!
But that would have been back in the day...now a days I just say say.... "thank you! 
WOW is "stop talking" in Domari language, gypsy :)? I used to know some words when i was a child and had some dom friends...
Greetings,
LOL!!...You mean like here...
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.'" 4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
quote:
WOW is "stop talking"
I always wondered what Adam thought when he was watching the women talking to a serpent and then speaking back to it.....but that WOW I was is speaking was not of the verbal committment to shut up,
at least not until the Spirit was given...
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 6:32:09 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 936
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
The New Testament defines what 'love' is:
It also says in 1 John 5:3: "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous.
quote:
” oh, it’s not Jesus’ birthday but some pagan god's”, etc.So what?
When you understand the history and the customs of which we are told not to learn the ways of the heathens or to serve Yah as they serve their god...
Especially when the Bible shows us when Messiah is born. When Messiah was crucified. Even communion is a watered down rendition of Passover. We don't call it Passover, but Paul in I Cor. 11 is speaking of Pesach. Verse 26 reveals that this was to be observed in our assemblies "till He come."
The heart of a person is most telling. If it's all about shopping, sahowing off...then yeah you've definitely missed the whole point. I'm talking about a system in which we adopt worldly holidays and Christianize them. One particular denom still dyes their easter eggs red. Do they know that the custom used to be to dye those eggs in children's blood?
Do Christians know that the x-mas tree is a symbol of tammuz's/Nimrod's uncircumcised phallic with the adornings having lewd/erotic connotations as well? This is what I'm talking about. If the root is unholy and pagan why and spoken of in Jeremiah 10. Or see Ezekiel's "weeping for tammuz" which is what is now Lent in Catholicism. What I'm talking about is a history of taking customs from other religions holidays and incorporated to the worship of the one true God.
I've yet to get a solid argument from our brethern who do such practices. I put it out there and no good response. No offense 'Blog and Odeliya on your response. I'm looking for some actual footage here. The truth is whether we agree with it or not Protestantism has inherited and perpetuated many of the RCC traditions. Which is why we keep Sunday, Christmas...
I've provided quotations of sources around page 100 of quotes from famous theologians regarding Sunday. It may be in the Sabbath Thread.
I read you post earlier about Christmas et al, I know most Christians do it with pure intent (I did), but does it line up with the Bible? I received a video tape from my 70+ year old muslim grandmother who I've recently been introduced after 25 years, that spoke of Christianity beling a burrowed religion. It detailed customs regarding the "mother-baby" worship, Christmas and many other Christian rituals. At the time I rejected this but began to investigate on my own. She was right in that regard. That's embarrassing! I had to learn this from a person practicing a devilish religion! Which lead me to ask to if believers really understand why we do the things we do. Sponge speaks of "indoctrination" well, we need to look in the mirror before we accuse someone else of being indoctrinated!
That's why I post. I hope to put the mirror of God's word to believers concerning our ways. I realize that systematic theology has and continues to blind us into not seeing what God is actually saying. That why we can say that the Torah is finished at calvary and feel no conviction when presented with evidence to the contrary.
Hot dog, I made this into a longer post than I intended sorry... 
< Message edited by LBolt -- 5/26/2008 6:38:30 AM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 6:49:08 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 936
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
We can't ignore the significance of what it means to have the law written on stone (the old way) vs. having the law written on the heart (the new way). It isn't automatic simply because you are born again. We grow into it through knowlege. What do you think God is working in us day by day, month to month, and year to year--drive 30 MPH because that's what the law is, or drive 30 MPH because you don't want to endanger your neighbor's life?
This is awesome!
quote:
You see it's not so much a matter of what you do as much as it is a matter of why you do it. Law dictates and governs the 'what'.
It also determines the why? Why did the Psalmist pen Psalm 119 esp., verse 24,27,29,32,35,47...Where did the two great commandment come from? And no it was not a condensing as you stated earlier... all the commandments flow out of these two. It because I love Yah that I don't have other gods, take His name in vain, keep Sabbath... It's because I love my fellow man that I don't lie, cheat, steal, dishonor parents... Therefore if you don't have love you don't have anything. It's because I love God that I keep His commandments. I don't say they are done away with... It not an obligation. I don't provide for my children because I'm required to...I do so because I love them. Yes, I am required but that's not my motivation!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 11:47:36 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1014
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
Unfortunatley, you missed my meaning. I said that if our theology does not match scripture then our theology needs to change not the scripture. If God is a spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. What is truth? According to the scriptures,
I've heard this argument before, that because you can't complete all of the procedures listed for becoming clean from an unclean emmission, that you are relieved from all the rest of the procedures. If that is true, then you are still in your uncleanness!
The law you insist is still in complete authority over us requires all of the procedures to be completed. You who defend the unchanging 'truth' of the law cannot now decide we can become clean without that part of the law. Do you understand? The 'unchanging truth' you defend effectively keeps you in your uncleanness. Is that what you want?
God purposely removed the only way, the only chance, that the Israelites had be reconciled to Him as punishment for their rejection of the Covenenat, effectively sealing the fate they chose for themselves! If you want the law to be your guide on how to serve God, then you also continue in the uncleanness that the law defines and have no hope of being made clean the way the law defines. You have no choice but to 'change' the truth you say can't change in order to not be unclean anymore. or accept God's deliverance from the law that sealed your uncleanness and separation from God.
The thing you're not gettings is how God in his wisdom devised a way through Jesus Christ to end the authority of the law over a person by fulfilling (not abolishing) the laws that insured our separation from God that previously went unfulfilled and stood as an outstanding debt against us. An outstanding debt for which there is now no possible way to pay the way the law requires.
If you insist the laws of Lev. 15 still apply then you are still indebted to God and remain in your uncleanness and separation because you can't do what is also required by that same law to be made clean. You have no choice but to tell me something has changed about the law and how we relate to God, or accept that you are still in your uncleanness.
Believing that God has paid the outstanding debt of the laws of worship that hung over us is how God has rescued mankind from the legislated requirement to be cutoff from Him. That is what it means for a law to be 'fulfilled' (not abolished). And Christ plainly said He came to fulfill the law, not abolish it. Now that the laws of how to be made clean are satisfied in Christ, we no longer have to serve the written debt of the old law. We no longer 'serve in the old way of the written code', as Paul says.
The old way of paying the debt was the literal activites I had to perform according to the law. Now the way I secure payment for the debt is by believing that Christ paid it for me. That's the new work of the New Covenant believer--to believe--and how the debt of the law got paid, one time, for all time. As long as I believe, Christ stands as the continuing payment of the debt I owe God according to the written code.
Who continues to pay a debt that has been paid in full? The debt you owe of making yourself clean according to the law no longer exists! Why conduct procedures for something you no longer owe as an obligation to God? And if you dare say you still have that obligation under the law, then you, by that same law], have no way of being made clean! No thanks! I'll go with Christ's legitimate fulfillment of those laws. The way that I am to fulfill those requirements has been torn away from mankind, thereby insuring that I can never be made clean.
You law keepers are getting the wrong message from the fact that the Temple and the priesthood of the Old Covenenat are gone. Their absence effectively seals the fate of everyone who seeks to be justified according to the literal requirements of the law (you do know justify also means to 'show yourself as being righteous', not just 'to make righteous', don't you?). You have no way of completing those requirements so you have no choice but to accept your separation from God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
Ps 119:142
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Ps 119:151
Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.
I've just written a lengthy post proving to you that the law is not God's definitive and final revelation of what 'truth' is. Why do you accept the written law as the complete, and final, unchanging Word of God's truth, when it's clear that so much more has been revealed that is also part of the truth? And this additional truth changes the way we now relate to God (I just proved it).
You cannot approach God (meaning you are cut off from God whether you know it or not) if you insist on relating to Him through a law you insist cannot, and has not changed. I don't think you fully understand what it means, in the end, to say God still requires us to perform the rituals of the Old Covenenant. You've taken on a debt you cannot repay.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
Joh 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh * * profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
So, Jesus, being the word and equal with God says the words that He speaks are spirit and life. Everything I said in my former post can be found in scriptures and in history. So tell me, which one is inaccurate? No one is justifying anything.
1Jo 3:11
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jo 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jo 1:5
And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
2Jo 1:6
And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Are we to ignore everything else the NT teaches us about what it means to 'keep God's Commands'. I've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that no one (not even you law keepers) keeps all of the commands you say are part of a law that you insist has not 'passed away' and is still in full force. Even your definition of 'God's Commands' doesn't include some that used to be included.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 12:01:41 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1014
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
You see it's not so much a matter of what you do as much as it is a matter of why you do it. Law dictates and governs the 'what'.
It also determines the why? Why did the Psalmist pen Psalm 119 esp., verse 24,27,29,32,35,47...Where did the two great commandment come from? And no it was not a condensing as you stated earlier... all the commandments flow out of these two. It because I love Yah that I don't have other gods, take His name in vain, keep Sabbath... It's because I love my fellow man that I don't lie, cheat, steal, dishonor parents... Therefore if you don't have love you don't have anything. It's because I love God that I keep His commandments. I don't say they are done away with... It not an obligation. I don't provide for my children because I'm required to...I do so because I love them. Yes, I am required but that's not my motivation!
But as I pointed out that 'why' was veiled and in darkness (like that of the moon), and hard to see under the law. Only in the Sonlight does the 'why' become fully visible. The few sentences found in the written law have become the very foundation, or wall peg (choose your analogy) that the law rests on. The focus is now on the foundation of the law, not the deceitful window dressing.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 2:31:27 PM
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bjay0801
Posts: 144
Joined: 12/10/2007
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I'm sure I'm going to kick myself for asking this but if all I did was give scripture and historical reference and the comeback I recieve is a very long commentary, did I miss something? So you are saying that scripture is inaccurate? So God's directions and instructions are inaccurate and God did not mean what He said. Jesus is the one who said, If you love Me, Keep My commandmets. You're arguing with what is written by saying what you think scriptures mean, not what they actualy say. I quote scripture and leave it at that and you say I'm wrong?
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 5:28:41 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1014
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
...So you are saying that scripture is inaccurate? So God's directions and instructions are inaccurate and God did not mean what He said.
Yes, inaccurate for this time and age, and this side of the cross. He meant every word that He said at that time. The conditions for being in covenant with God at that time were spelled out in the law. But even you know some things have clearly changed, literally, and we are not required to relate to God the way we were once required to.
I've answered your question politely, now answer mine, please. God once commanded that sin be atoned for through the offering up of a very specific grade, type, and age of animal. And we both agree this is not required anymore, though it was clearly commanded in the law. "So God's directions and instructions are inaccurate and God did not mean what He said?" That is my fair and honest question to you.
And if you'd like, please explain how I am to understand the law of sacrifice for sin as not having been abolished (because you are all about not abolishing laws, and so am I), yet is not followed anymore. You have two choices...
1) The law of sacrifice for sin is still in effect. Sin is still atoned for through animal sacrifice. Which means two things. You are still in your sins, because there is no Temple, the only lawful place to bring your sacrifices (among other reasons). And, secondly, Christ's sacrifice is now made meaningless.
2) The law of sacrifice for sin is not in effect anymore. Christ's sacrifice has removed the ongoing indebtedness of animal sin offerings we had under the law, so I don't have to do that anymore.
What all this means is you can't use the 'unchanging truth of the law' argument to defend the continuation of literal law keeping. You need a new argument. If you follow that law keeping argument out to it's logical conclusion it's easy to see why we don't have to continue to fulfill (meet the requirements of) the literal 'when, where, and how' laws of worship of the Old Covenant. They're not abolished (we both agree Jesus plainly said He did not come to abolish the law). But we also agree some are not still literally in force (animal sacrifice being the premier proof of that). They have been fulfilled, the very thing Jesus said He came to do. It's the only logical and just answer.
Thank God for the New Covenant.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 11:56:23 PM
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bjay0801
Posts: 144
Joined: 12/10/2007
Status: offline
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First, allow me to thank you for being very polite and honest in your post. And also allow me to thank you for answering my question and I will do my best to answer yours. You have aske a very fair question and so here I go. I do realize that there is almost nothing I can say that will change your mind and please understand that I am not trying to. All of Torah is valid and in force today! We do not have the option to decide what is applicable and what is not. The sacrifical commandments comprise about three quarters of the commandments. So if those have been done away with (are not applicable) then only about a quarter of the Torah is good (still applicable). This does not hold up to sound scholarship. The temple was destroyed and therefore no sacrifices can take place. Sin sacrifice was only one of the sacrifices offered at the temple. There were others and as long as there is no temple, again I say, no sacrifices. The temple's destruction was prophisied by God and He prophisied that it would be rebuilt.Do you realize that you will have a very serious choice to make? Furthermore, do you realize that if you are going to stay and live in the Millennial land that you will be expected to keep and obey every single commandment of Torah and if you do not, the land itself will exspell you?
We cannot keep the sacrificial commandments today simply because there is no temple. No other reason! When the temple is rebuilt then we will be able to keep the Torah in its entirety! Are you ready? Or more to the point, are you willing? One day all nations will offer sacrifices to the Lord, not because they are looking to have their sins covered, but out of obediance to God's written word. There is a difference. Please be very careful about deciding what commandments you think are applicable and which ones are not, for walking down this road is eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It is not up to us to make such decisions. That belongs to YHWH only. If He commands us to do it, then we had better be doing it! All of it! This is not about the sacrifice of animals, or anything else that is written. This is about obediance.
LOL I'm doing the very thing that I said I would not do=commentate.
Again, just becasue we disagree on some things, I can appreciate the fact that we have the testimony of Jesus and with that comes His Spirit so that we do not desire to do the same things as the world (those who do not have His spirit). Either that or we just have nothing better to do with ourselves.
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O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2008 12:40:10 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1014
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quote:
All of Torah is valid and in force today!
How can you say this knowing full well that the law of sacrifice for sin is not, and never will be in force ever again? There are other Torah requirements that are clearly not binding anymore, and will not be in the millenium. How can we not understand these as nothing short as a release from literal Torah?
I was careful to say 'literal', because I understand completely how God's law is not abolished. But I can think of at least two ways that God has provided for a person to legitimately escape the authority of the law without violating or abolishing that law.
One way is the requirements of a law get satisfied in such a way so that it does not remain as a recurring debt that has to be repaid. And the other way is dying and becoming a new creation that the law does not apply to. Both ways are closely related.
When we look at the laws of Torah that we know aren't in force anymore, and will never be again (like animal sacrifice for sin), we can see how they became inapplicable (not abolished) through one of the ways I just listed.
I'm interested in your answer to the question I have asked.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 5/27/2008 12:46:23 AM >
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2008 7:08:53 AM
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bjay0801
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Ahhh, but remember, Jesus IS our sacrifice for sin and still is for those who have not accepted Him. Because man is a sinfull creature, we need help when we get out of sync with God and His righteousness. We need His sacrifice because of our sin. And to be honest, sin has always been our problem and the blood of bulls and goats did not cover sin which is why we needed a better sacrifice hence the blood of Jesus. Every person who has not accepted His sacrifice still needs His blood to "cover a multitude of sin". This is just like when God had to swear by His own self when taking the covenant with Abraham;there were sacrifices made, but God still had to swear by His self so that man could not be depended on to keep covenant because of sin. Many of us do not understand the sacrificial system and how it points to our Messiah but everything in scripture from Genesis to Revelation, from alef to tav is all about Him, not us or what we may want or don't want. We are here for His good pleasure. Now I realy want to know how everything is going to run in the millenial kingdom and tehreafter; I honestly don't understand everything and I hope I am not coming off that way. SB< you're just tryin to make me study some more aren't you!?  If I am wrong on any point, then I will be the first one to raise my hand and stand in repentance. That was a VERY good question and one I have asked many times which is what forcd me to study into it. I know that I'm probably missing some things so please don't take my word for it, we all need to study for ourselves.
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O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2008 9:12:28 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1014
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
Ahhh, but remember, Jesus IS our sacrifice for sin and still is for those who have not accepted Him.
...the blood of bulls and goats did not cover sin which is why we needed a better sacrifice hence the blood of Jesus.
But this is my point exactly. Jesus replaced animals as the sacrifice for sin. I understand how Jesus's sacrifice removes the sin nature, not just covers sin to sin. And the addition of Jesus in and of itself would not be a change in Torah, just an addition to it. But, clearly we no longer have to also follow Torah in regard to sacrifice for sin. In fact, to do so is blaspheme. Your argument could stand if animal sacrifice for sin continued alongside Jesus's sacrifice which we know it does not. Torah has changed.
It's undeniable that Torah is no longer binding in regard to the 'what, where, who, and how' of how to offer up an offering for sin. And the fact that the Temple is no longer standing has little to do with the truth that Jesus is now the new sacrifice for sin. The law of sacrifice for sin found in Torah would still be unapplicable even if the Temple were still here.
The literal requirements of Torah really have changed. I don't see the evidence of the literal continuation of Torah as a complete and binding entity. And this being true, it's not unreasonable or impossible that other laws of worship have become inapplicable with the death and resurrection of Christ. That's my point in all this. The precedant exists in the example of sacrifice for sin (and other examples) for us to understand how outward worship has changed in the New Covenant.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
...Now I realy want to know how everything is going to run in the millenial kingdom and tehreafter; I honestly don't understand everything and I hope I am not coming off that way.
I don't know how it's all going to play out either. But I think when the evidence is examined closely, and arguments are taken out to their logical conclusiions, you can begin to see how much more figurative and symbolic the prophecies of Isaiah and Ezekiel are regarding the millenium than some believe.
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2008 9:26:26 AM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
.....So you are saying that scripture is inaccurate? So God's directions and instructions are inaccurate and God did not mean what He said. Jesus is the one who said, If you love Me, Keep My commandmets. You're arguing with what is written by saying what you think scriptures mean, not what they actualy say. I quote scripture and leave it at that and you say I'm wrong?
dear BJay, sorry for butting in, you and Sponge already having a wonderful enlightening debate on this, for which i am grateful, but one thing if I may emphasize, even sponge did touch on this as well:
If you love me You keep my commandments doesnt mean the reverse is right, esp. when we are talking about literal laws. It's, to use Sponge's very cool analogy of speed limits, akin to saying :If you sincerely love children, you will be driving 30 km/hour in a school zone. The reverse is not true: If you are driving 30 km/h in a school zone that mean you love and concern about children.Not at all! One might be doing it for other selfish reasons,that have nothing to do with love.
Same is the greatest problem with most, not all! - messianics i've met is they automatically assume that if they stop eating pork, and celebrate Feasts and hanukkah instead of christmas and obey other laws of their choosing that means they love God. Do you agree ?
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2008 9:31:38 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2314
Joined: 8/10/2005
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Even I know you have to use the OT scriptures to have any hope of getting through to a natural, Christ rejecting Jew. It's a waste of time to talk to a Jew about Christ without using the pictures and illustrations of the OT, the very thing Paul did so effectively. He made the case for Christ right from their own scriptures, which is what anyone (God included) must do to validate the truth of Jesus to a Jew. It's the only ground upon which to approach the Jews without having them shut you down right out of the gate. That doesn't amount to a defense of literal law keeping. It's the simple logic of meeting them where they are, and it's the spirit behind Paul's "to the Jews I became like a Jew".
I would clarify – we talking about a believing (at least somewhat believing ) Jew; moderately-to-severe religious believer.
The regular atheistic or basically atheistic kind can be approached with NT straight out, trust me!:)
Its not as much the words of Christ and Paul that one uses , it’s the Christ that one shows that matters..
I loved Anisavta and miss her here, she mentioned that jews don’t like the approaches that Christians use on them. Good observation, and the reason being- those aren’t even Christians. And when i was a Christ rejecting jew- I didn’t want a religious-but-non-believing fiery Christian evangelist/missionary to waste my time either.Or religious but not believing fiery Messianics approach would be a total waste of time as well
< Message edited by Odeliya -- 5/27/2008 9:38:05 AM >
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2008 9:41:44 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2314
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
quote:
The New Testament defines what 'love' is:
It also says in 1 John 5:3: "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous.
dearest brother L, thanks for the post i will reply a bit later, but in the meantime, i apologize for asking but i need your reply to the same question i asked BJ- do you agree that keeping commandments ( literal laws) doesnt yet mean one truly loves God.
I do love you and appreciate your sincerety but dont have any interest in talking to those who equate spirit of the law with letter of it, thinking it's the same thing. Please clarify.
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2008 1:05:04 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3557
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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Unfortunatley, you missed my meaning.
This is a given. LOL.
quote:
I've heard this argument before
Same old, same old, response. ROFL.
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Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2008 1:06:23 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3557
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
I've just written a lengthy post proving to you that the law is not God's definitive and final revelation of what 'truth' is.
This seems to leave us in "Pilate's shoes."
Then, "What is truth?"
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Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2008 1:35:50 PM
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SpongeBlog
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