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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 12:35:35 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2433
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wskybtl
The only part I would disagree with Lbolt, is that the Law is not hard to understand. It can be. I do see that we are to keep the law. But unlike many of those who keep the law, I believe in keeping the whole law. Even the sacrifices, even the New Testament.
The “oral law” from their “rabbis” were worn. This is what I was attempting to explain. When one goes to Jesus, wanting Jesus to teach them, they can wear the oral or spoken words of Jesus the same way Jesus wore His Father’s Commandments. As the students wore their Rabbi’s spoken words.
We know Jesus did as it is written in Deuteronomy 6:8 or 11:17. He wore His Father’s Commandments by wearing them upon His forehead and hand. And we, keeping the custom of wearing Commandments, take the oral, spoken words of Jesus and wear them in like manner. Doing as Jesus did with His Father’s Commandments.
Jesus is our Rabbi, our Teacher and He spoke upon the Mount just as His Father. When we “keep” those words in like manner, we dwell in the love of Jesus, just as He dwells in the love of His Father. We declare Him our Teacher.
It was the Old Testament which was used in those days. But many don’t understand the term, Jesus is The Word of God. That Word that God spoke, that He wrote with His finger (the Ten Commandments), is who Jesus is. For God took His Word and made Him flesh.
When one puts on the Commandments of Jesus, they put on Christ. (spirit)
When one puts on the Commandments of God, they put on Jesus. (truth)
Just as Jesus tells us His words are spirit.
John 6:63 …: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
God tells us His is truth.
Psalm 119:151Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.
So to have the spirit and the truth, one would be keeping the “oral”, or spoken words of both Jesus and God, in the same manner given us as an example by Jesus. We take the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5 -7) given us by Jesus, The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20) given us by God, bind them, and wear them upon our forehead and hand.
To be in Jesus Christ, they would be wearing God’s spoken words of both the Old Testament, and New. Jesus plays with the strings of our hearts when He says in John 14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
If you love someone, you want to please them. So we “keep” His Commandments, cling to them as a cherished gift from our Father. His burden is light. We don’t ask others to do what we do. I don’t even know what most do. I just know when we went to God, He instructed us what to do and we do it. I am not looking for trouble, don’t mind answering what questions I can. Even at that, I can only tell you all, what we do. He will let you know what he wants you to do.
By sharing how we see Scripture, we each can learn from one another. He found a place for those of the Old Testament, those of the New, surely He will find a place for us. And maybe through each other's eyes, we can catch a glimpse of what He is doing today. Don’t get upset with me, I am new here and not real sure how others believe.
Greetings,
quote:
By sharing how we see Scripture, we each can learn from one another. He found a place for those of the Old Testament, those of the New, surely He will find a place for us. And maybe through each other's eyes, we can catch a glimpse of what He is doing today. Don’t get upset with me, I am new here and not real sure how others believe.
I have been convinced by what the Lord has already done in my life alone that all blessing comes from the front of the book, and that revelation is to get us there!! 
And I must admit, if I had that reminder on my forehead or my wrists in times when I jumped those notations of the HS, perhaps I would have remembered; and not have gotten into the trouble I did!!
I know we can't help God; but we sure can assist the helper at times....LOL!!
And when I get to Heaven the first person I asked to see other than Lapidoth.... is my Angel, because I know that after I was saved He needed a vacation! 
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 2:36:00 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 936
Joined: 11/30/2007
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wskybtl,
There are some problems with doing the sacrifices right know, mainly due to the fact that there is no Temple...
I'll post later with some scriptural texts to support.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 2:45:38 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 936
Joined: 11/30/2007
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quote:
If this is the case, then why did the Church leaders in Jerusalem not write them to follow the written Torah? They wrote them very specific instructions for them to follow (in my opinion, only to not be offensive to their Jewish bretheren), which certainly do not encapsulate all the rules found in the Law.
These precious people just came out of idolatry, having sex with temple prostitutes and engaging in many other immoral acts. They laid this down initially knowing that as verse 21 or 22?? says, Moses would be read every Sabbath. They gave them the "heart of the Torah" dealing with Lev. 11-19. Now because they probably didn't own a Bible or the scriptures wrote on scrolls, they would have to rely on congregating and the reading of liturgy to further enhance their understanding. It seems like they gave them a good start as opposed to getting circumcised after the custom of Oral Law and keeping the Oral Law in order to be saved. Mr. Fribbles, you have to realize that there was no other holy book. What I mean is, they did not have Matthew, Mark, luke, John, Romans... at their disposal. These books contain the life and teaching of Yahshua which was the Torah. John 5:46-47 is a powerful verse that backs this statement up.
The new covenant in Jeremiah 31 speaks of the Torah being written on our hearts and minds... I appreciate your questions.
< Message edited by LBolt -- 6/29/2008 3:24:07 PM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 7:28:25 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1014
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I am not denying the second commandment. I was just wondering why you chose to bypass what Yeshua called "the first and greatest commandment" for the second.
I know you're not denying it. You just don't fully realize that the second commandment is how you keep the first one. That's why Christ said the second is like the first. The laws of worship in the OT also now find their greater fulfillment in accordance with this second commandment (example; circumcision is now the absence of fleshly deeds that hurt people, not the removal of a fold of skin).
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, private prayer is ceremonial and therefore not needed? Personal study is ceremonial and unneeded? When Adam walked with Adonai in the garden that was ceremonial and not needed?
Of course not. What is not needed is a legislated program or schedule to do those things. They don't succeed or fail, or please God based on what day you do those, or for how long, or in what manner you do them. Way too many people think the righteous living God is leading us to is a life full of proper external worship procedures. Following legislating procedures and methods and ceremonies for worship (no matter what your denomination thinks that is) is not the measure of a changed character. The fruit of the Spirit is.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Doesn't Re 13:8 tell us that the Lamb was slain from the creation of the world? Also, wasn't Ha Ruach(The Spirit) with men throughout the Scriptures? In fact doesn't Ha Torah say, Gen 5:24 "Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away." Can any of us say we are that close to Adonai? If Yeshua and Ha Ruach were available before Ha Torah was written down, then why would He not have been available to those between the time of Moshe and Yeshuas appearing?
What's the point of the New Covenant if everyone could become Spirit-filled as we know it today simply by obeying the letter of the law? The point of the New Covenant was that now all men, great and small, could minister before the Lord through the Holy Spirit, not just those few select people who did under the old covenant, who served as examples for us.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I do admit loving ones neighbor is a measure of ones love for Adonai. However, there are many philanthropic Atheists who have no love for Adonai. Not to mention those who serve other gods.
Although selfless and sacrificail Biblical love is certainly the distinguishing mark of the believer, it is love for the brethren particularly that distinguishes the disciple of Christ from the world. This is a truth that so many people overlook.
"Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." (John 13:34-35)
Since we have all been made in the image of God, even the worst of sinners has some capacity for seemingly selfless acts of love. But you won't catch atheists and philantropists loving on the church, but you may well catch them conforming to some legislated form of outward worship (yes, even atheists). That's why love as exemplified in the fruit of the Spirit, particularly toward the Body of Christ (afterall, 'who hates his own body') is the distinguishing mark of the true believer, not modes and methods of external worship, no matter how required they used to be.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I do not understand why we must get bogged down with the specifics of one commandment before we have agreed on the basis for the commandments. I am not arguing for or against circumcision at his point. I am trying to determine what is the central guiding principle of ones life.
I was using it as an example. But it does serve as a very useful illustration to serve our purposes here. Circumcision was the epitome of being marked as being part of the covenant. It was the sign of the covenant in one's flesh. So even without arguing the specifics about circumcision, we can use it to understand the value of inward change as one's guiding principle. And a principle that manifests itself and sets apart and distinguishs the believer in a much more meaningful and truthful way than just the cutting of the flesh. It is that guiding principle that represents truly worshiping in Spirit and in Truth. Circumcision is just a good illustration to contrast external old covenant laws of worship with what it means to truly worship in Spirit and in Truth.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I agree that all other laws, ceremonies and procedures must follow from ones core belief. That is why I have been trying to determine what our core belief is, before moving on to specific commandments.
Now, do you believe that the first commandment is included in the second commandment, the second commandment is the totality of the first commandment, or as Yeshua says, the second is like the first?
All three, I guess. From a purely practical point of view, commandment two is the manifestation of commandment one. If you want to keep commandment one you keep commandment two. Laws and requirements for worship--going to church, reading the Bible, praise and worship, Festivals, Sabbaths, etc.--are not the proof that you love God. Commandment two is the proof that you love God. You may do those things because you really do love God, but they are not the definitive outward proof that you love God. A person is justified (has shown himself to be righteous) by walking in the fruit of the Spirit, not by keeping the ceremonial laws of the old covenant.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 10:38:56 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1616
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
These precious people just came out of idolatry, having sex with temple prostitutes and engaging in many other immoral acts. They laid this down initially knowing that as verse 21 or 22?? says, Moses would be read every Sabbath. They gave them the "heart of the Torah" dealing with Lev. 11-19.
But that's nowhere in the text that I can see. I feel uncomfortable with the idea of reading such a large extra requirement when there's no suggestion of it in Jerusalem's letter.
quote:
Mr. Fribbles, you have to realize that there was no other holy book.
Obviously not. But they had songs and creeds, not to mention special workings of the Holy Spirit. At the time, they didn't rely on a Holy Book in the same way we do today.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 12:28:59 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 936
Joined: 11/30/2007
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quote:
But that's nowhere in the text that I can see. I feel uncomfortable with the idea of reading such a large extra requirement when there's no suggestion of it in Jerusalem's letter.
Understanding the culture and reading the history of that time period. With regard to the pharisees, again do your research my friend. Unfortunately they did rely on Scriptures, Paul told Timothy to study them to show himself approved unto God... Read II Tim. 3:15-17, it was the TaNaKH Paul referring to.
Do me a favor, research Judiasm briefly, and do a study on the pharisees, Josephus provides good material...pick up some books on the pharisees and their beliefs...it'll be a very insightful study. I in no way profess to know it all but what I know...I know because I toke some time to research somethings a little more in depth. Even when what I found was contrary to what I had believe or was taught. It takes bravery and true humility to admit you may not have understood something clearly. Of course, right now I'm in a position where I willing to be taught even if it disrupts some traditional held beliefs that don't line up with scripture.
< Message edited by LBolt -- 6/30/2008 12:35:05 AM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 2:25:58 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1616
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
Understanding the culture and reading the history of that time period. With regard to the pharisees, again do your research my friend. Unfortunately they did rely on Scriptures, Paul told Timothy to study them to show himself approved unto God... Read II Tim. 3:15-17, it was the TaNaKH Paul referring to.
Believe me, I have done my research.
If 2 Timothy 3 only refers to the OT (notice I say only, since obviously the OT is also inspired), then what basis do we have to defend NT inspiration?
Just because something is useful for correction and teaching, and able to point one to salvation, does not automatically require them to be followed in the same way as they were before Christ.
Also, what are your thoughts on Ephesians 2:11-22, specifically verse 15?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 4:02:09 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1414
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Then do you believe "communion" is meaningless?
No. John 6 makes it crystal clear what it means in regard to the work that Christ did for me.
Then you do believe in following ceremony. So, is one to only observe "communion" as dictated by the catholic church and the various "reformed" versions thereof, or is it acceptable to observe the entire "last supper" as one believes it occured.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...on what basis can we say they are wrong in considering adultry a "ceremonial law". After all there is a marrage ceremony.
This is a very good example of how people get mislead and deceived by thinking religious ceremonial conduct and external worship procedures and beliefs are more important than walking in the character of Christ as exemplified in the fruit of the Spirit. My experience has shown that people who exalt the externals over the fruit of the Spirit don't even know about the fruit of the Spirit as being the supreme will of God for the believer.
Good attempt at avoiding the question. You have said that the "moral law" is exemplified in "insuring the well-being of ones neighbor." Even judged by the fruit of the spirit these people would say that adultry insures the well-being of ones neighbor. They would say it is a loving act, that it brings joy to the recipient, it is a peaceful act if the participants are conscenting, it shows longsuffering because it is permitting ones spouse to be intimate with another for the spouses enjoyment, and it can be done with gentleness, kindness, meekness and self-control. Again I do not approve of adultry. I just don't think quoting the fruit of the Spirit is a convincing argument against adultry.
Now, I do not believe that "religious ceremonial conduct and external worship procedures and beliefs" are more important than walking in the character of Ha Meshiach(The Christ) as exemplified in the fruit of Ha Ruach(The Spirit). I believe true religion, worship and beliefs are derived from ones core belief. For me this is the Shema that tells me to focus on the character of Ha Torah made flesh(Ha Meshiach) and, as I follow His example, I exhibit the fruit if Ha Ruach(The Spirit). So, you can see what I believe and how I come to that belief.
With regard to your beliefs, I am having a hard time determining what you consider to be your core belief. First you say worshiping Adonai "in Spirit and in Truth" is the most important thing. Then you have said that "law governing how we approach God" is an example of the "ceremonial law" that is second to the commandment to "love your neighbor as yourself", which you believe is the basis of the "moral law", which we must continue to observe. Now you refer to "the fruit of the Spirit as being the supreme will of God for the believer." Now, there can only be one "supreme will of God for the believer." If worshiping Adonai "in Spirit and in Truth" is the most important thing, it can not be secondary to anything else, and it must be by definition the "supreme will of God." So, which of these three do you propose we are to consider our core belief, from which we derive the others, worship Adonai in Spirit and in Truth, love your neighbor as yourself, or the fruit of the Spirit.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...The question is do we derive our view of man from observing Adonai or do we derive our view of Adonai from viewing man?
Neither. We derive our view of man (how we should treat him) by how God has loved us first.
"We love because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19)
His agape type of love towards us is the pattern from which we learn to love others. It has nothing to do with external modes and methods of worship.
Good, it is Adonai's love that is the pattern for our lives and this is not how we feel toward another, but "how we should treat him". So, are you saying that we can worship Adonai in Spirit and in Truth only when we understand His love for us? Also, we can't know how to love our neighbor as ourselves, if we do not understands Adonai's love for us? And thirdly, once we understand Adonai's love for us we can experience the fruit of the Spirit in our lives? In each of these cases Adonai's love is in how He treats us. Is this correct?
I'll be back to the rest of your post later.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 6/30/2008 4:21:13 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 9:53:13 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1014
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Then you do believe in following ceremony.
Of course I do. Jesus plainly dictated at least two 'ceremonies' for His church to follow. I am dead set against the where, when, and how of legislating those ceremonies, or any other. That old way of relating to God through the letter of law has been replaced by the new way of the Spirit which is not bound by dates and seasons and procedures as was the old way.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...So, is one to only observe "communion" as dictated by the catholic church and the various "reformed" versions thereof, or is it acceptable to observe the entire "last supper" as one believes it occured.
What's the Catholic Church got to do with it? Jesus used the wine and bread to illustrate the meaning of His work on the cross. What do you people not understand about that? The Catholics didn't invent it.
But according to your argument, I have two choices. Do it according to Catholic tradition, or do it according to Jewish tradition. Neither of which constitute a 'not allowed to be changed' letter of the law concerning the observance of a Mosaic Passover. Jesus didn't care if it was changed, and neither do I, that's not my point. I say that for the benefit of those who cling to the 'Torah must be followed' argument to defend and impose their denominational convictions . If Jesus Himself did not keep a letter of the law Mosaic Passover why do I have to?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
quote:
original: Bluethread
...on what basis can we say they are wrong in considering adultry a "ceremonial law". After all there is a marrage ceremony.
This is a very good example of how people get mislead and deceived by thinking religious ceremonial conduct and external worship procedures and beliefs are more important than walking in the character of Christ as exemplified in the fruit of the Spirit. My experience has shown that people who exalt the externals over the fruit of the Spirit don't even know about the fruit of the Spirit as being the supreme will of God for the believer.
Good attempt at avoiding the question. You have said that the "moral law" is exemplified in "insuring the well-being of ones neighbor." Even judged by the fruit of the spirit these people would say that adultry insures the well-being of ones neighbor. They would say it is a loving act, that it brings joy to the recipient, it is a peaceful act if the participants are conscenting, it shows longsuffering because it is permitting ones spouse to be intimate with another for the spouses enjoyment, and it can be done with gentleness, kindness, meekness and self-control. Again I do not approve of adultry. I just don't think quoting the fruit of the Spirit is a convincing argument against adultry.
What makes you think it's possible to be walking in the fruit of the Spirit and not be caring about the welfare of the displaced husband in this scenario? This whole scenario you've develped here to make a point is all wrong (in direct answer to your question) because of the injury to the poor ex-husband, who probably wasn't invited to the wedding, and is at home crying in his cornflakes.
The Spirit is what sensitizes our hearts to the feelings of others. If you walk by the Spirit, being a kind, gentle, compassionate person (that fruit of the Spirit thing), you will not be deceived into harming the welfare of your neighbor's husband. But you can bet people who are in the habit of carelessly and mindlessly trampling the feelings of others are probably clinging to a deceitful facade of external worship of some kind and thinking they are pleasing God, and know little to nothing about what it means to walk in the fruit of the Spirit. Trust me on this one.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Now, I do not believe that "religious ceremonial conduct and external worship procedures and beliefs" are more important than walking in the character of Ha Meshiach(The Christ) as exemplified in the fruit of Ha Ruach(The Spirit).
In general, people who defend denominational dogma and insist on imposing it on others have not seen the truth with the eyes of their spirit that it's all about character. If you truly believed that the fruit of the Spirit was more important than outward ceremony you would say, 'the only thing that counts is character', and you would see your convictions in regard to external worship as personal and individual and not insist it's the way God wants everyone to do it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I believe true religion, worship and beliefs are derived from ones core belief. For me this is the Shema that tells me to focus on the character of Ha Torah made flesh(Ha Meshiach) and, as I follow His example, I exhibit the fruit if Ha Ruach(The Spirit). So, you can see what I believe and how I come to that belief.
What I see you and others defending is following Christ's example means adhering to the legislated times, dates, and procedures for external worship in the old covenant. I'm telling you, that is not what it means to follow Christ's example of character as seen in the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit is far high and above what day you do certain things and how you do them. Those procedures have no moral component about them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
With regard to your beliefs, I am having a hard time determining what you consider to be your core belief. First you say worshiping Adonai "in Spirit and in Truth" is the most important thing. Then you have said that "law governing how we approach God" is an example of the "ceremonial law" that is second to the commandment to "love your neighbor as yourself", which you believe is the basis of the "moral law", which we must continue to observe. Now you refer to "the fruit of the Spirit as being the supreme will of God for the believer." Now, there can only be one "supreme will of God for the believer." If worshiping Adonai "in Spirit and in Truth" is the most important thing, it can not be secondary to anything else, and it must be by definition the "supreme will of God." So, which of these three do you propose we are to consider our core belief, from which we derive the others, worship Adonai in Spirit and in Truth, love your neighbor as yourself, or the fruit of the Spirit.
Worshiping in Spirit and in Truth is loving your neighbor as yourself. And we love our neighbor as ourself by walking in the Spirit that says, 'be kind, be gracious, be forgiving, be self-controlled, be gentle...'. Worshiping in Spirit and in Truth is not where, when, and how you do church, and whatever other external expression of worship there is (circumcision, Sabbath keeping, etc..).
Those who are condemned in the judgement and claim, 'but we did this, and we did that in your name!' will be guilty of trusting in outwardly religous looking things, and the trappings of what we have been deceived into thinking is more important in serving God, and they will have been found guilty of not having fulfilled the requirments of the character qualities that Jesus has just expounded on in the previous paragraphs up to this stinging indictment in Matthew 7:21-22. They had no fruit!
Jesus's warning is to seek the Holy Spirit, bear fruit and enter in the narrow way (Matt. 7:7-20), not be careful to do church and ministry correctly.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Good, it is Adonai's love that is the pattern for our lives and this is not how we feel toward another, but "how we should treat him". So, are you saying that we can worship Adonai in Spirit and in Truth only when we understand His love for us?
Yes. The epitome of which is His love as expressed to us in the free offer of forgiveness, made possible by the work of Christ.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Also, we can't know how to love our neighbor as ourselves, if we do not understands Adonai's love for us?
Yes. You'll never understand forgiveness until you've been forgiven yourself. Being forgiven is what takes all the steam out of the sin nature.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
And thirdly, once we understand Adonai's love for us we can experience the fruit of the Spirit in our lives?
Yes, because those who have been forgiven are sealed with the Holy Spirit which in turn is expressed in increasing measure in our own lives in the fruit of the Spirit toward others.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
In each of these cases Adonai's love is in how He treats us. Is this correct?
Yes.
I know you have a point to make, so make it and we'll go from there. Somehow or another this will come around that we should be obeying the old covenant laws for outward worship of God. And not just that we should be worshiping, but that we should be doing it according to the pattern of the OT. I'm curious how'll you'll make the connection.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 6/30/2008 10:02:37 AM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 10:27:24 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 936
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Believe me, I have done my research.
If 2 Timothy 3 only refers to the OT (notice I say only, since obviously the OT is also inspired), then what basis do we have to defend NT inspiration?
Just because something is useful for correction and teaching, and able to point one to salvation, does not automatically require them to be followed in the same way as they were before Christ.
Also, what are your thoughts on Ephesians 2:11-22, specifically verse 15?
When Paul wrote Timothy, IMO I don't believe he thought he was writing "scriptures" just a letter instructing this young pastor on certain matters. We are blessed to have access to this awesome letter.
Concerning Ephesians 2:11-22, this is a beautiful passage dealing with our 'engraftment' into the common wealth of the house of Israel through Yahshua's sacrifice on the cross. Again, in that day Judiasm (oral Torah + Written Torah) was king in those days and was used interchangably. I think you want me to focus in on verse 15. The key word in this verse that blows the door open for me is the word 'ordinances'. It is the Strong's number 1378 and it is dogma in Greek. According to the New Strong's Expanded Dictionary of Bible Words it says "Frrom the base of 1380; a law (civil, cerem. or eccl.):- decree {3x}, ordinance {2x}. Dogma is transliterated in English, primarily denoting an opinion or judgment; hence, an opinion expressed with authority, a doctrine, ordinance, or decree."
Rabbincal Law, my friend! God's Torah as written in Genesis, Exodus... are NOT dogma's or opinions...it is the Word of God, it is the inspired Word of God. A holy man was moved by the Holy Ghost to write it. However, the Oral Law was not/is not inspired by the Ruach Ha Kodesh. This is the same dogma refered to in Colossians 2:13-14. In fact Yahshua in Mark 7 has this to say, "Well hath Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoreth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many such like things ye do...For well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honor thy father and mother... Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things ye do."
WOW!!! Selah!
This was the enmity or hatred Paul was referring to, not the Word of God!!! This was the middle wall of partition. Oral law is man's attempt at righteousness just like any other dogma. The Christian Church has some man-made dogmas! Believe you me. Women can't wear a red dress, open toed shoes, don't go to the movies and a host of others. I believe the intent is good but it is never-the-less a fence law.
Therefore, I submit to you, Mr. Fribbles, it wasn't the Torah that had the problem...it was man-made dogmas that He hated. Think about the above example in Mark, because of tradition they broke God's Law where you are supposed to honor father and mother. I know, even after this explanation...I'll still be wrong to you. That's O.K. at least a seed was planted.
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 11:27:06 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1616
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
When Paul wrote Timothy, IMO I don't believe he thought he was writing "scriptures" just a letter instructing this young pastor on certain matters. We are blessed to have access to this awesome letter.
Do I misunderstand, or are you suggesting that 2 Timothy is not inspired by the Holy Spirit?
quote:
The key word in this verse that blows the door open for me is the word 'ordinances'. It is the Strong's number 1378 and it is dogma in Greek. According to the New Strong's Expanded Dictionary of Bible Words it says "Frrom the base of 1380; a law (civil, cerem. or eccl.):- decree {3x}, ordinance {2x}. Dogma is transliterated in English, primarily denoting an opinion or judgment; hence, an opinion expressed with authority, a doctrine, ordinance, or decree."
Interestingly, this is also the word used to describe the civil law of Rome, and also the decrees that the council of Jerusalem sent to the Gentile believers. Nowhere it is used suggests this "Oral Torah" you suggest it refers to, at least in and of itself; the idea would have to be read into the text.
quote:
Rabbincal Law, my friend! God's Torah as written in Genesis, Exodus... are NOT dogma's or opinions...it is the Word of God, it is the inspired Word of God.
You're basing this on one possible meaning behind "dogma," one that does not seem to be upheld by its usage in the NT text. Another definition is "the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment," which, given its proximity to the word "nomos" and "entoley", seems a better understanding. Paul often piles words on top of each other, so to speak, in order to get his point across.
I'm certainly not suggesting that the OT is not inspired! Surely not. However, just because it is inspired does not mean it has to be lived out in the way it did before Christ.
quote:
The Christian Church has some man-made dogmas! Believe you me. Women can't wear a red dress, open toed shoes, don't go to the movies and a host of others.
*shudder* Don't I know it...
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 11:57:33 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 936
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quote:
Do I misunderstand, or are you suggesting that 2 Timothy is not inspired by the Holy Spirit?
I do believe that the Holy Ghost moved upon Paul to write these words however, like I said before, I do not believe he thought he was writing the Bible or a portion of it. I believe he was writing a letter to young Timothy pertaining to pastoral matters, etc.
I don't believe the Torah is 'enmity'. I don't believe it was against us. Now I know there are somethings that apply to the Temple but there are a lot of principles there that we can adhere to such as Sabbath, the dietary laws, the Feasts to name a few. The Priesthood is under the Melichezedic priesthood where Yahshua the Messiah is the High Priest. Paul in Acts could have settled a lot of matters when see Acts 25:1-12; chapter 21; Stephen the same thing see Acts 6:8-15. In chapter 21, Paul could have easily said 'I don't have to do that that OT Messiah did away with that' but he didn't. Acts 24:14-19.
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 1:09:08 PM
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bjay0801
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(quote) Believe me, I have done my research.
If 2 Timothy 3 only refers to the OT (notice I say only, since obviously the OT is also inspired), then what basis do we have to defend NT inspiration? (quote)
Please remember that 85% of the NT IS the Old Testament. None of the scriptures are just made up. They were repeating torah.
(quote) Obviously not. But they had songs and creeds, not to mention special workings of the Holy Spirit. At the time, they didn't rely on a Holy Book in the same way we do today. (quote)
They had the same scriptures of Torah, the prophets, and the writings (which today the NT is considered a part of the writings). So what you're saying is not exactly true. The songs that were sung were scriptures. The "creeds" are scriptures repeated so they could me memorized.
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O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 1:30:48 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
Therefore." …’these people…. draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
However, I don’t see our Messianic friends here keeping such tradition...
I have an opinion about some of our messianic friends views, based on clear evidence of their behaivor - sorry to see them being as such; but for the sake of peace and mutual respect wont discuss it.
quote:
…..I was just wondering where the in the Law of Moses the traditions of the elders (whom strayed so far from the truth) trickled down from; .....Or where those traditions were based in the Law of Moses… ? Now that our eyes have been opened! ….
So far I have not been able to find those traditions in the Law of Moses that the elders kept.
Yes, many rabbinical traditions were often contradictory to the Word and totally manmade. I agree with that.I was taking the debate a bit further, making a statement:
The most religious and strict obeyer’s of the Law( i meant Torah, not rabb. bs) on the outside are often the dirtiest, wicked evildoers on the inside, …..Managing to do what they want while maintaining the "appearance" of doing what God wants.
Meaning that even those that think they are fully following thetorah only and don’t follow the false rabbinical laws are often still idolators, enemies of God and in terms of obeying the Spirit they are not better then Pharisees, scribes and other hypocrites.
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 1:37:30 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
here's an interesting link: http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/
thanks, L! not bad, actually, sort of "Jews for Dummies" :)
It is way too generalized to detrimental, for theological debate, point - it's like making an article named "What Californians believe" and then state - they all believe gay marriage is good!
Judasim is incredibly complicated, many points in it are still highly debated by rabbies. But essentially it's curious site.
quote:
Our fellow Jewish brethren face persecution frrom family members and frfiends who are Jewish when they accept Christ as Messiah...continue to pray for our brethern. Amen!
Amen!!
I think any kind of true christians face persecution. I see real Christians that come from "chirstian" families (religious only) facing it just as much.
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 1:38:47 PM
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bjay0801
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Hey O, I have a question for you. I'm just curious of what kind of messianic congregation did you attend that left a sour taste in your mouth? And are you saying that everyone who is "messianic" is the same?
(quote) The most religious and strict obeyer’s of the Law( i meant Torah, not rabb. bs) on the outside are often the dirtiest, wicked evildoers on the inside, …..Managing to do what they want while maintaining the "appearance" of doing what God wants. (quote)
I understand what you're saying and I think all of us have seen self righteous church folk. (messianic and other wise) But I have said in the past and I say again that keeping God's commandments is a matter of the heart. Keeping them and breaking them is a matter of the heart.
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O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 1:48:05 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2314
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quote:
Hey O, I have a question for you. I'm just curious of what kind of messianic congregation did you attend that left a sour taste in your mouth?
Just visited a few MC, never attended as a member. I also have some messianic friends- wonderful, God loving people! I think you are as well, based on what i see so far.
quote:
are you saying that everyone who is "messianic" is the same?
Please reread the post carefully.
Where do you see me saying "all are the same"?
I said this in the previous post: I have an opinion about some of our messianic friends views
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 1:53:23 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
...I'm certainly not suggesting that the OT is not inspired! Surely not. However, just because it is inspired does not mean it has to be lived out in the way it did before Christ.
I've been trying to use animal sacrifice for sin and literal circumcision as examples that we can all agree on that are inspired commands of God but which are no longer required to be upheld literally (and not just because the Temple is gone). But they stick to their 'but it's the Word of God' argument.
A good, long, lengthy post would be needed to list all the words of God that are no longer literally binding. I keep telling them that they need a new argument. Just because God said it and it was binding then is not a legitimate catch-all defense that it's literally binding now. We just have too much proof that shows that argument doesn't stand on it's own. They need a better argument for the continuation of some OT laws.
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 1:56:24 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 936
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Please Sponge, spare me of the "good, long, lengthy post would be needed" posts... attention span can't take it. Here alittle, there a little.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 1:59:57 PM
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bjay0801
Posts: 144
Joined: 12/10/2007
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quote:
Please reread the post carefully.
Where do you see me saying "all are the same"?
I said this in the previous post: I have an opinion about some of our messianic friends views
My apologies. I was just wondering that's all. You know what they say about an idle mind. . . .
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O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 2:04:32 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1014
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
...For those of you who advocate all Christians following all of the Law, how do you respond to Acts 15, pertaining especially to the Council at Jerusalem's letter to Gentile believers?
I've been purposely defering to our Messianic brethren in regard to your posts. As you've probably noticed, the Messianic argument relies heavily on outside information and support. But the Bible itself is such a wealth of information to help discern so much that gets creatively interpreted by Messianics.
This matter of circumcision is made so clear in all the other scriputures regarding the practice. It is the actual literal command of Moses that is in debate, and Paul says it is a big nothing, and doesn't include it in his understanding of what it means to 'keep God's commands' (Romans 2, 1 Cor. 7). Circumcsion is simply not requried anymore, either as a means to salvation or as outward proof of that salvation.
The circumcision God requires is the putting off of the sin nature, and it only follows that the outward evidence that would accompany that circumcision is...the absence of the deeds of the flesh. And because it is a work of the Spirit it gives no occasion for boasting, as literal circumcision and other external acts of worship do.
Thank God for the New Covenant.
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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