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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 8:55:41 PM
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bjay0801
Posts: 142
Joined: 12/10/2007
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Hi Bob. I'll try to answer your question as best as I can. Some of what I'm going to say is my opinion so take it for what it is worth. Knowing what torah is and what it stands for (directions and instructions) then there is an answer there. In Jeremiah, the prophecy is to have God's torah written on our hearts; how is this possible? Well one of the very last commandments dealt with the heart. (covet) Jesus addresses the commandments in Matthew 5 and the very thing He speaks more so about were issues of the heart. When He addressed the pharisees, He said they looked good on the outside, but on the inside (their hearts), they were full of dead mens bones. And said the things that they did on the out ward such as paying tithes, praying and fasting, ect, they should do but their were weightier matters in the law that they should be concerned with. So everything starts with the heart. The Holy Spirit guides us to God's ways which is why we even have a desire to try to do what is right in God's sight. The torah is forever. God constantly rebuked Israel over breaking His commandments even though on the outward, they were doing them but had a heart of stone. It's not the doing of the outward alone that God is pleased with, but it is the law and the testimony of Jesus that we should have. I'm sorry I missed your question when you first posted this. I'll keep an open eye out next time. 
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O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 9:39:03 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1240
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Mr.Fribs, Paul made reference to oral law alot. Like I said before it was used iterchangeably. The scripture you pointed in Col. 2 is an example because in verses 20-23 he spells it out plainly.
I just don't see a distinction made by Paul between "two Laws". It seems to me that you are reading your view into Scripture, and not letting Scripture speak for itself. Granted, Scripture must be understood in its historical context, but if Paul was trying to make a clear distinction between the "oral" Torah and the written one, then why did he not make the distinction much more clear?
Yes, in the Col. passage you address, he is speaking of certain regulations - but 1, he never says this is Torah, and 2, the examples he gives could be traced back to the written Torah.
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Why we don't stone? Christ redeem us from the law of sin and death?
That seems a little picky/choosy to me. If you say that we should follow the whole law, and you do,
quote:
I'm going to say at this point all of it
(unless I misunderstand what exactly you mean by "all" here)
then why should the judgments be excluded?
quote:
I'll explain this more in depth, later...
I look forward to it. : )
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 3:56:42 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1161
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Then you do believe in following ceremony.
Of course I do. Jesus plainly dictated at least two 'ceremonies' for His church to follow. I am dead set against the where, when, and how of legislating those ceremonies, or any other. That old way of relating to God through the letter of law has been replaced by the new way of the Spirit which is not bound by dates and seasons and procedures as was the old way.
Then the nudist druids could be said to be observing "communion" properly in a graveyard in the middle of the night, since one should not concern oneself with "where, when and how".
quote:
What's the Catholic Church got to do with it? Jesus used the wine and bread to illustrate the meaning of His work on the cross. What do you people not understand about that? The Catholics didn't invent it.
But according to your argument, I have two choices. Do it according to Catholic tradition, or do it according to Jewish tradition. Neither of which constitute a 'not allowed to be changed' letter of the law concerning the observance of a Mosaic Passover. Jesus didn't care if it was changed, and neither do I, that's not my point. I say that for the benefit of those who cling to the 'Torah must be followed' argument to defend and impose their denominational convictions . If Jesus Himself did not keep a letter of the law Mosaic Passover why do I have to?
Your right the catholics did not "invent" the practice of drinking wine and eating unleavened bread on Pesach. However, it was the catholics that reduced it to bread and wine only and instituted this shorthand version as a "sacrament". Also, one need not observe Pesach according the rabbinic tradition to observe it as Ha Torah commands. In fact the term "Jewish tradition" is inaccurate, since jewish rabbis have disagreed about the proper Seder for nearly as long as there has been one. So, it appears that unless you mean rabbinics when you use the term "letter of the law", I must say as Yeshua said, you err because you do not know what the scriptures teach. I say this because I don't see where Yeshua did not keep Ha Torah in the way he observed Pesach.
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What makes you think it's possible to be walking in the fruit of the Spirit and not be caring about the welfare of the displaced husband in this scenario? This whole scenario you've develped here to make a point is all wrong (in direct answer to your question) because of the injury to the poor ex-husband, who probably wasn't invited to the wedding, and is at home crying in his cornflakes.
You have ignored the premiss that these are swingers. Therefore, the spouses both aproove of the behavior. The wedding I was refering to was the one between the to original spouses. But, why even be bothered with a wedding at all, since it is just a ceremony?
quote:
The Spirit is what sensitizes our hearts to the feelings of others. If you walk by the Spirit, being a kind, gentle, compassionate person (that fruit of the Spirit thing), you will not be deceived into harming the welfare of your neighbor's husband. But you can bet people who are in the habit of carelessly and mindlessly trampling the feelings of others are probably clinging to a deceitful facade of external worship of some kind and thinking they are pleasing God, and know little to nothing about what it means to walk in the fruit of the Spirit. Trust me on this one.
How do we know this behavior is harmful to either of the spouses? They would say that, "The Spirit is what sensitizes our hearts to the feelings" of each other. They would also say you are "in the habit of carelessly and mindlessly trampling the feelings" of swingers by "clinging to a deceitful facade of external worship", that is marrage. They might even conceed that you are merely decieved, because you think you "are pleasing God, and know little to nothing about what it means to walk in the fruit of the Spirit". So, what are we to say to these people?
quote:
In general, people who defend denominational dogma and insist on imposing it on others have not seen the truth with the eyes of their spirit that it's all about character. If you truly believed that the fruit of the Spirit was more important than outward ceremony you would say, 'the only thing that counts is character', and you would see your convictions in regard to external worship as personal and individual and not insist it's the way God wants everyone to do it.
Again, you ignore my words and accuse me of defending "denominational dogma" and insist that I am imposing my beliefs on others. The truth is that I belong to no denomination nor am I imposing my beliefs on anyone. You asked, so I answered. If this is imposing then are you not a master at imposing your beliefs on others. No one and/or nothing is forcing you to continue this conversation except our covenant. Therefore, since you believe it is only the spirit of a covenant that matters, then you can simply say that it is no longer your intent that I answer your inquiries and be done with it.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I believe true religion, worship and beliefs are derived from ones core belief. For me this is the Shema that tells me to focus on the character of Ha Torah made flesh(Ha Meshiach) and, as I follow His example, I exhibit the fruit if Ha Ruach(The Spirit). So, you can see what I believe and how I come to that belief.
What I see you and others defending is following Christ's example means adhering to the legislated times, dates, and procedures for external worship in the old covenant. I'm telling you, that is not what it means to follow Christ's example of character as seen in the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit is far high and above what day you do certain things and how you do them. Those procedures have no moral component about them.
Again, you ignore the spirit of what I say, restate your view of what I believe and use that view as a justification for imposing your beliefs on me. I was not stating my core belief and the logic in developing my views from it because I expected you to accept them. I did so in the hope that you to might clearly state your core belief and present a logical progression from there to the various views you so dogmatically state and restate as if they need no derivation or definition.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Good, it is Adonai's love that is the pattern for our lives and this is not how we feel toward another, but "how we should treat him". . .
In each of these cases Adonai's love is in how He treats us. Is this correct?
Yes.
I know you have a point to make, so make it and we'll go from there. Somehow or another this will come around that we should be obeying the old covenant laws for outward worship of God. And not just that we should be worshiping, but that we should be doing it according to the pattern of the OT. I'm curious how'll you'll make the connection.
I was going show a logical progression, but since you have a habit of believing you know what I am going to say before I say it, I will draw the conclusion directly and hope this time, unlike the other times, you will answer it directly without reading in some ulterior motive.
What I am getting at is if Adonai's love is expressed in how He treats us, why would He treat us differently than the Patriarchs? Does he love us differently than He does the Patriarchs? If David was called a man after Adonai's own heart, why was He not granted the freedom you appear to say we have? After all in the end of Psalm 51, after seeing that sacrifices without a right heart are unacceptable to Adonai, he says, "Then there will be righteous sacrifices, whole burnt offerings to delight you; then bulls will be offered on your altar." Was David wrong in believing that sacrifice is acceptable, if ones heart is right?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 7/1/2008 4:09:45 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 8:56:59 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 896
Joined: 11/30/2007
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"vs 22...after the commanments and doctrines of men?" Is the Bible a "commandment or man-made doctrine?" Think about it friend. I know this is contrary to what you may have been thought or may have studied.
How is this not clear? verse 20,21 linked with the earlier verses in the chapter.
As for the Torah for eternity...He'll have to come and clarify somethings. Gotta get ready for work.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 9:52:43 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Then the nudist druids could be said to be observing "communion" properly in a graveyard in the middle of the night, since one should not concern oneself with "where, when and how".
They'd have the communion part right. But what's the point in their proper ceremony if they haven't even partaken of the true communion, the Body and Blood of Christ Himself? Which is exactly the point I'm trying to make. Outward ceremony counts for nothing. And how much more so for those who aren't even born-again? But you can bet they probably would find a deceitful comfort in having done some kind of outward ceremony of the Church.
And that's my point. Ceremonies don't lead to righteousness, nor are they evidence of righteousness. A butt naked druid thinking he's doing something righteous by having communion around a bonfire in the middle of the night is proof of that. But one thing you won't catch a druid doing, and that's walking in the fruit of the Spirit. Walking in the Spirit is proof of a relationship with God, not keeping some law or requirement of worship.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Your right the catholics did not "invent" the practice of drinking wine and eating unleavened bread on Pesach. However, it was the catholics that reduced it to bread and wine only and instituted this shorthand version as a "sacrament".
Jesus didn't have a problem changing Moses Passover. So why is it so important to adhere to literal Torah? Honest question.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Also, one need not observe Pesach according the rabbinic tradition to observe it as Ha Torah commands.
That's a given. But why do you do it according to tradition and not scripture (assuming you do for arguments sake)? Another honest question.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
In fact the term "Jewish tradition" is inaccurate, since jewish rabbis have disagreed about the proper Seder for nearly as long as there has been one.
But why? It's pretty clear in the scriptures of Moses how to do it (remember, I personally don't care). This is the exact ceremonial BS that ruins the church. Majoring in minors instead of appreciating the heart and intent of what God desires.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
How do we know this behavior is harmful to either of the spouses? They would say that, "The Spirit is what sensitizes our hearts to the feelings" of each other. They would also say you are "in the habit of carelessly and mindlessly trampling the feelings" of swingers by "clinging to a deceitful facade of external worship", that is marrage. They might even conceed that you are merely decieved, because you think you "are pleasing God, and know little to nothing about what it means to walk in the fruit of the Spirit". So, what are we to say to these people?
Get saved. Why should we expect unsaved people to have any different arguments than what you bring up here? I don't see any value in talking about walking in the Spirit using unsaved people to prove a point. They don't even have the Spirit. Their behavior is proof of that.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Again, you ignore my words and accuse me of defending "denominational dogma" and insist that I am imposing my beliefs on others. The truth is that I belong to no denomination nor am I imposing my beliefs on anyone. You asked, so I answered.
I'm speaking of the Messianic movement in general. You personally have not been so direct in saying that the rest of us should be doing what you do to line up with Torah. Others have been.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...If this is imposing then are you not a master at imposing your beliefs on others. No one and/or nothing is forcing you to continue this conversation except our covenant. Therefore, since you believe it is only the spirit of a covenant that matters, then you can simply say that it is no longer your intent that I answer your inquiries and be done with it.
I don't fully get what you're saying here. I'm here voluntarily. If I get offended, I will leave voluntarily. That's what this forum is all about.
Go back and read my posts. I've made it clear over and over again that Messianics are free to do whatever they want to do. But I do resist the general Messianic belief that the rest of us should be doing what they are doing. That hardly qualifies as a denominational position on my part. Dogmatic? Yes! And I make no apologies for it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...you ignore the spirit of what I say, restate your view of what I believe and use that view as a justification for imposing your beliefs on me. I was not stating my core belief and the logic in developing my views from it because I expected you to accept them.
I accept your right to believe whatever you want. This is a discussion forum, and the burden is on each of us to make ourselves clear, no matter how long that takes. I get frustrated to. But, if you or I do not want our beliefs challenged, and do not want to take the time to make sure we are understood clearly, then we shouldn't be here.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I did so in the hope that you to might clearly state your core belief and present a logical progression from there to the various views you so dogmatically state and restate as if they need no derivation or definition.
I've taken much time and effort to define what I believe. And I see you're not getting it, but I've been patient to help you see my point of view. I've been trying to follow your lead in all this. It's only been through my digging into your posts that I have even a glimpse of where you're going.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
What I am getting at is if Adonai's love is expressed in how He treats us, why would He treat us differently than the Patriarchs? Does he love us differently than He does the Patriarchs?
He gave the Patriarchs a promise of something to come. We now have that promise. You'll have to ask God why He used such a long drawn out process to reveal the manifestion of His love to mankind. We are loved differently than the Patriarchs in that we have full fellowship with His love now. The patriarchs only had the promise that the Spirit would be given. His love for them was expressed in literal tangible things, like land, and cattle, etc. So in that sense, yes, God's love for them was manifested differently.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If David was called a man after Adonai's own heart, why was He not granted the freedom you appear to say we have? After all in the end of Psalm 51, after seeing that sacrifices without a right heart are unacceptable to Adonai, he says, "Then there will be righteous sacrifices, whole burnt offerings to delight you; then bulls will be offered on your altar." Was David wrong in believing that sacrifice is acceptable, if ones heart is right?
No he was not wrong. And sacrifice is an expected response to the love of God. David was obligated to literal sacrifices. But for us New Covenant believers those sacrifices are now spiritual:
"...you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 2:5)
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 7/1/2008 10:02:17 AM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 10:05:25 AM
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bjay0801
Posts: 142
Joined: 12/10/2007
Status: offline
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(quote)I just don't see a distinction made by Paul between "two Laws". It seems to me that you are reading your view into Scripture, and not letting Scripture speak for itself. Granted, Scripture must be understood in its historical context, but if Paul was trying to make a clear distinction between the "oral" Torah and the written one, then why did he not make the distinction much more clear? (quote)
That's why you were encouraged to look at what Judaism teaches. When you see in scripture, "the teachings of the elders", or the "traditions of the elders", ect, that's oral law. The people in Pauls day already knew what he was talking about. We are the one's who are without understanding because everything that was too "jewish" was removed by the church. In judaism there are 2 laws, the commandments of God, and the teaching of the rabbis. They are known pretty much as the talmud, the mishna, the kabballa, and others. These are traditions that are said to have been oraly passed down from Moses to the people. The problem is that these "oral traditions" began to be held in higher regard than the scriptures. For example, if a rabbi says that left is actualy right, then you must believe and do as that rabbi has said. Now this is an extreme example but that's pretty much what's been done. Now that does not mean that good things have not come from these traditions, the same way good things have come from our "church" traditions. A good example would be the "washing of the hands" found in the gospels. There is no commandment that says wash your hands but we now know that it's sanitary to do so. In orthodox Judaism there is a prayer and a certain way a person washes their hands with kosher basins, water ect. In those days, gentile nations did not wash their hands so they were subject to all manners of diseases and so forth. Now if one tries to become orthodox in their thinking then we would have to go back to the argument in Acts 15. There were believing pharisees who were teaching that the new christians had to be circumcised to be saved. After a long debate, James then wrote the letter to the churches saying what the new believers should do andthen continue learning every sabbath in the synagouges. Hope that kinda gives a little clarification.
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O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 10:06:59 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
"vs 22...after the commanments and doctrines of men?" Is the Bible a "commandment or man-made doctrine?" Think about it friend. I know this is contrary to what you may have been thought or may have studied.
How is this not clear? verse 20,21 linked with the earlier verses in the chapter.
So what do we do with this? Do we just ignore it? Do you not think 'written code' means the letter of the law of Moses?
"...having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us..." (Col. 2:14)
It's clear he's addressing the totality of the law, Mosaic and Rabbinical. That way of serving God is dead. We now serve God in a new way:
"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. (Romans 7:6)
God has given us a new vehicle through which to relate to Him, different from the law, but which still upholds the intent and purpose of the law.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 10:27:40 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 838
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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Boy I leave for awhile and this tread goes nuts, with posts.
quote:
Usually, I don't have the opportunity for side comments and I don't want to lose the train of thought with spongeblog. If you have been following, I have not thrown out the Apistolic Writngs. The sacrifices are a means of repentance and thanksgiving not salvation. So, if it were possible, making sacrifices in the manner prescribed by Adonai would just be a sign of faith as a mikvah(baptism) is. Therefore, if baptism does not denigh the redemptive work of Ha Meshiach, then a proper sacrific would not either. If I do not continue this discussion with you, I hope you will understand. I have an agreement to not get distracted in my conversation with spongeblog.
Gee sorry to hear that you feel that way because you stated it and Iwas repling to it. First thing is that it is faith, not the blood shedding. Which causes us to be saved. Everone knows that in Hebrews 11 is the great faith, of the people in their stories in the early books of the library.
You can having faith in what he did on the cross as salvation. By believing that your sins are forgiven through the blood. Because the Father look at what the Son did and by his Son sacrificing his life for us. Recieved his blood as being worthy our sins. Sin started in the garden and you need not to forget that what to upset God in that story. Was man not believing what God said would happen if they ate of the tree.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 11:06:06 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2055
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
We cannot keep the Spirit of the Law without the Spirit of GOD.
The Letter of the Law are the basics. We should keep the former without neglecting the latter.
I smell some rhetorical, unsubstantiated fluff.
quote:
We have been made new creatures in Messiah (Christ) and by His Spirit we are becoming like Him. The Law is The Word, and The Word is GOD, and The Word reveals GOD to us, and the rest of the world. Yeshua (Jesus) is the Law / Word made flesh. GOD / His Word among us. You cannot separate, fragment, dissect His Word from His Spirit. They are ONE.
No, not one. Very wrong reasoning but wrapped up in pretty sounding wording.
One can obey the Law and disobey the Spirit, done daily by multitudes of people.
It’s like saying that 1)having a family and 2)loving your family means the same thing, and 1 automatically causes 2. Or going thru the motions prescribed for Sabbath observance automatically means person is loving God.
People can, and often do at the same time:
1.obey the literal( letter) of the Torah
2. disobey the Spirit of it.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 11:17:28 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2055
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
O:
I have an opinion about some of our messianic friends views, based on clear evidence of their behaivor - sorry to see them being as such; but for the sake of peace and mutual respect wont discuss it.
Gyp:
There is a principals in the Law of the Bible that speaks of causing such a reactions, so I guess someone who knows how to manipulate that is pushing those buttons.... in Love.... of course
Oh, i am not beating around the bush - i am too of a brat to worry about selfimage :)I mean what i meant - convinced some messianics mistakenly think that preteding to obey -partially that is  - Letter of the Law means they please God. While lacking love for God and brethren.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 11:31:09 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2055
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Spongie:
What used to be so fundamental and essential for being in covenant with God is now a big fat zero. The literal has passed in favor of the spiritual. The profundity of this truth cannot be overstated. And I imagine this is especially true to a natural Jew who is familiar with the law and his heritage.
May i get your permission to report, kind Sir -
in case of your humble servant i feel like someone who came from a war and now watches people enjoying playing very realistically looking War Games. They have no idea....No wonder the majority of MC here (and everywhere i see them) are gentile people...
stylish "Hebrew Roots" movement, paradoxically condemns oral law yet dangerously flirts with kabbalism, rabbinical /talmudists views and such, to give it a selling edge.
Glad to see that most messianics are too serious and godly to buy into that longterm.
In that regards i do applaud Lapster for getting off his donkey and actually study for himself.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 12:18:47 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3307
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
stylish "Hebrew Roots" movement, paradoxically condemns oral law yet dangerously flirts with kabbalism, rabbinical /talmudists views and such, to give it a selling edge.
Glad to see that most messianics are too serious and godly to buy into that longterm.
In that regards i do applaud Lapster for getting off his donkey and actually study for himself.
This is the "great" danger in this new denomination. Although older than I know.
It's not any different than the graeco/roman church in that regards as "in general."
Seems there are some who insist on putting the cart before the horse.
Some who push and/or pull the cart themselves.
Because I study for myself since I was 12, I can see where there are "truths" in all thoughts.
And it's those truths that pull us away from the TRUTH. And I'm not so self deceived to think
I am immune. "I'm not under the law," is one of those subtle deceptions. We are redeemed
from the curse of the law that was against us. No longer do we have to fear death. Jesus
came to give life and to give it more abundantly. There is only "one life" and that is eternal
Life. Yeshua said, "I am the Resurrection and the Life."
Both sides have an equal amount of blame and error. Yet, if we truly come together under the
banner of Love, we can reason together without continually pushing each other into those pigeon
holes. I like being in the "Cleft of the Rock," but I don't like being pushed into a hole. lol.
We had more [discussion] this last Sabbath with another group. It wasn't heated, but their
stance is obvious. I have to look like them, smell like them, act like them, and talk like them.
I continually have to tell everyone, "I will let you be you, but I insist you allow me to be me."
The good out of even threads like this is I continually have to dig deeper. And sometimes not
so much digging, but "notice" as I study and read and remember what others say about certain
passages. I'm still digging in Galatians. A phenominal book. But it takes more than the western
eye to understand what is truly being said. Funny how no matter what our stance, we are "confident"
that we "know" what Paul was thinking and saying. We only prove how ignorant we are of the culture
and climate of the day.
And it's been my observation in this area of those who are blood Jews, that they aren't any more
knowledgeable about heritage and law than I am. So blood line isn't a factor in knowledge. Neither
is "revelation" about "spirit" living. That's from our own endoctrinations. I've followed all the formulas
and doctrines. They all lead to the same place. The Father is the Father. His Word isn't that hard.
We just make it hard. But there is a need to know who the letters were written to in order to have
the full flavor. I get e-mails from around the world and sometimes I have a time of understanding
what is being said. But I did get one today from a neighboring state. It was as clear as day what
they were saying. Since I don't buy into the "hype" that is infiltrating the church world, I have a dead
church with no life. Well, so be it. If the One who is LIFE is preached, how can it be a dead church?
Works of the flesh aren't evidence of a "live" church. People claiming to raise people from the
dead, pushing them down on the floor, kicking them in the stomach, etc. We call that life?
LOL. I've gotten on the soapbox of another thread. Sorry.
It all boils down to a personal relationship with the Father.
We can only have that through the Son of the Father.
And only if the Father "draws" us by His Spirit.
Whole Council of God = Balance
< Message edited by Lapidoth -- 7/1/2008 3:20:55 PM >
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 12:23:25 PM
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manichunter
Posts: 63
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
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The difference from the two laws should be seen as the difference from a catepillar and butterfly.
Okay context LOL. What type of priesthood does the old Mel represent in the context of this passage. I will study it all from the Greek context. What type of priesthood is reflected, one of flesh and blood or one of spirit.
Greek Word for change in the text is Metathesis and it means either change, removing, translation. Which one fits here, is up to you to seek the Holy Spirit about. I am going to go with translate. The priesthood was translated from one of flesh (Levi) to one of spirit (Christ), hence, the applicable Torah was translated from flesh to spirit as well. How could Christ be a eternal spiritual priest with no Torah is non-starter.
Hebrews 7: 1-3 1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated "king of righteousness," and then also king of Salem, meaning "king of peace," 3without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually. (He was the foreshadowed witness of Christ eternal and spiritual priesthood) Hence, why his lineage is not known and his days are not recorded because he meant to reflect Christ. He represent Christ's eternal office and role of intercession over all man.
Hebrews 7:11-17 11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
14For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 17For He testifies:
"You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek."
(Levi were a fleshy priesthood that administered fleshly commandments and ordinances) Christ is a spiritual priest who administers spiritual commandments and ordinances as illustrated in Matt 5. Levi was a foreshadow as well of Christ's functions and intentions towards us as High Priest.
Hebrews 7:22-28 22by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. 23Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
(Christ who was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world revealed the spiritual realities of mankinds needs by bringing them out of shadows and into revelations that have become obtainable through His Spirit)
Hey did learn something new from the Holy Spirit in this study and response to your question. Everytime Jesus said "I say to you", He was establishing a command. He was establishing spiritual torah by elevating the revelation of torah and correcting man's errors.
Matt 5:31, 32 31 "Furthermore it has been said, "Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality F17 causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. (Here Christ sets the record straight concerning divorce) (This was a command that says bump what you heard, this is what I say to you as your God)
Mt 5:18 -For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.(Christ back this command up with a double gaurantee, He must have known that people would trash His Torah again as the Hebrews had done) Mt 5:20 - For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. (Well this was impossible, hence no man shall be justified by the Torah)
Mt 5:28 - But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Here he elevates the commandment to a higher reality of motives and secret thoughts) (The physical torah never applied or addressed a person's motives and secret thoughts, just actions)
Mt 5:34 - But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; (I am telling you to say yes or no, thats it)
Mt 5:44 - But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, (Christ says that you are no longer excused for loving with the love of mankind, but now you have to love with the love of God which leaves no remove for hate) The first covenant never addressed hate as sin. However, those they have matured in love in the second covenant can go beyond the infant type of love of mankind to love even their enemies.
_____________________________
Where is your Berean spirit. Challege everything to determine if you be of the faith. The devil is a tough foe. The messages have to be hard and piercing. So be it, count all things lost. Now off to the hunt to save souls!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 12:25:24 PM
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manichunter
Posts: 63
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
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Yes the law changed in the sense of a translation taking place from one viewed in a fleshy sense to that of spiritual. This what I have been saying all along that the Torah was not passed away or done away with, but transfigured into the same thing of a spiritual priesthood.
How could Christ be a high priest without a spiritual Torah. Only the devil would be interested in the saints being spiritually lawless.
Christ called us to a royal spiritual priesthood as well to give spiritual sacrifices. Not in the same sense of the esrthly sacrifices but spiritual sacrifices that were foreshadowed by the earthly sacrifices. This is why Paul said the following and he was being literal in his spiritual meaning:
Php 2:17 -as a drink offering on the sacrifice and service of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all.
So few no what He means out of ignorance of the fleshly Torah which was the shadow. Well you cannot put it own spiritual if it is not seen first from its shadow. However, we are all called to a be burnt offering, meal offering, and peace offering in the spiritual which is our reasonable service.
The problem is our carnality. A lot of saints have been taught a learned bias and hate against anything related to teaching and instituting anything related to the fleshly Torah. Hence, their is an automatic disdain and rejection in some saints against it that causes a lack of investigating the subject matter. We others teach that Torah is passed away or done away with, then they strip the saints of their means of making proper spiritual sacrifices.
However, what could be understood is that Jesus actually raised the standard of our expected conduct not lowered it. In Matt 5:17-19, the Greek for fulfilled is better translated (Pleroo-to complete and fill in).
Christ in the following passeges then explains and instructs people how He fulfilled the fleshly Torah by expecting more out of our conduct. He was establishing Spiritual principles of Torah on top of the fleshly Torah.
Matt 5: 21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not murder, F13 and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause F14 shall be in danger of the judgment. (Now we can murder in our heart by hate, when before there was no law against this) Now Christ established the true intent by Spiritual Torah bying keeping the old and building on it an elevated understanding.
Matt 5: 43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor F19 and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, F20 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet your brethren F21 only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors F22 do so? 48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
(Now Christ fills in the fleshy Torah by establishing a new principle of divine love on top of carnal love. Under the old Torah one was allowed to hate his enemies, but that was a immature form of love. Christ now expects us to be as the Father in the manner of love. I can see Christ in these versus wanting to finish with, be ye holy as Your Father is Holy.)
He spends the next few chapters explaining spiritual torah in its new application built upon the fleshly torah. He makes the direct commands of, "I say to you."
__________________
_____________________________
Where is your Berean spirit. Challege everything to determine if you be of the faith. The devil is a tough foe. The messages have to be hard and piercing. So be it, count all things lost. Now off to the hunt to save souls!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 12:56:33 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1240
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
So what do we do with this? Do we just ignore it? Do you not think 'written code' means the letter of the law of Moses?
Aw man, ya' beat me to it. ; )
I quite agree. Just because Paul may also be addressing the additional teachings added on by men does not negate that, if he is distinguishing between a written and oral Torah, he is also addressing that Christians do not need to follow the written Torah.
----
quote:
James then wrote the letter to the churches saying what the new believers should do andthen continue learning every sabbath in the synagouges. Hope that kinda gives a little clarification.
*emphasis added*
Where do you find James' command to continue learning in the synagogues in Acts 15?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 1:43:00 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3307
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manichunter
The difference from the two laws should be seen as the difference from a catepillar and butterfly.
Okay context LOL. What type of priesthood does the old Mel represent in the context of this passage. I will study it all from the Greek context. What type of priesthood is reflected, one of flesh and blood or one of spirit.
Greek Word for change in the text is Metathesis and it means either change, removing, translation. Which one fits here, is up to you to seek the Holy Spirit about. I am going to go with translate. The priesthood was translated from one of flesh (Levi) to one of spirit (Christ), hence, the applicable Torah was translated from flesh to spirit as well. How could Christ be a eternal spiritual priest with no Torah is non-starter.
Hebrews 7: 1-3 1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated "king of righteousness," and then also king of Salem, meaning "king of peace," 3without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually. (He was the foreshadowed witness of Christ eternal and spiritual priesthood) Hence, why his lineage is not known and his days are not recorded because he meant to reflect Christ. He represent Christ's eternal office and role of intercession over all man.
Hebrews 7:11-17 11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
14For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 17For He testifies:
"You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek."
(Levi were a fleshy priesthood that administered fleshly commandments and ordinances) Christ is a spiritual priest who administers spiritual commandments and ordinances as illustrated in Matt 5. Levi was a foreshadow as well of Christ's functions and intentions towards us as High Priest.
Hebrews 7:22-28 22by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. 23Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
(Christ who was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world revealed the spiritual realities of mankinds needs by bringing them out of shadows and into revelations that have become obtainable through His Spirit)
Hey did learn something new from the Holy Spirit in this study and response to your question. Everytime Jesus said "I say to you", He was establishing a command. He was establishing spiritual torah by elevating the revelation of torah and correcting man's errors.
Matt 5:31, 32 31 "Furthermore it has been said, "Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality F17 causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. (Here Christ sets the record straight concerning divorce) (This was a command that says bump what you heard, this is what I say to you as your God)
Mt 5:18 -For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.(Christ back this command up with a double gaurantee, He must have known that people would trash His Torah again as the Hebrews had done) Mt 5:20 - For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. (Well this was impossible, hence no man shall be justified by the Torah)
Mt 5:28 - But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Here he elevates the commandment to a higher reality of motives and secret thoughts) (The physical torah never applied or addressed a person's motives and secret thoughts, just actions)
Mt 5:34 - But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; (I am telling you to say yes or no, thats it)
Mt 5:44 - But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, (Christ says that you are no longer excused for loving with the love of mankind, but now you have to love with the love of God which leaves no remove for hate) The first covenant never addressed hate as sin. However, those they have matured in love in the second covenant can go beyond the infant type of love of mankind to love even their enemies.
Good Post.
"I SAY UNTO YOU" is a study in itself and quite revealing.
I imagine we all cross this bridge at one point in our walk or another.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 1:48:13 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
So what do we do with this? Do we just ignore it? Do you not think 'written code' means the letter of the law of Moses?
Aw man, ya' beat me to it. ; )...
Don't 'cha hate when that happens?
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
... Christians do not need to follow the written Torah.
I know this will be misunderstood by many and it begs further explanation, because no one here is advocating lawless behavior (except me--afterall this is Spongie's lawless thread! lol!). The point being made here is we are not under the supervision of the letter of the law. It's not that we don't uphold the purpose and intent of Torah, it's just that we now do it in another way--the way of the Spirit which as I've shown over and over again can look very different from the letter of the law, but nevertheless fulfills the requirements of literal Torah.
I've been chomping at the bit waiting to get back on here and talk about this matter of justification because my discussion with BThread is heading in this direction. The bottom line of this whole thread is, "how do we justify ourselves (show ourselves to have been saved and declared righteous) now that we have been saved by faith? Through observance of the letter of the law, or through the the Spirit as exemplified in the fruit of the Spirit". I honestly think the answer is easily discerned in scripture.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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hey, dear zebra would you kindly make some paragraphs in your posts? Like after 5- 6 lines, for easier read.
