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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 9:56:50 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
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I’m going to ask this question again; under the terms of the new covenant as described in Jer 31:33 when God writes the Torah in the hearts of man, is this all aspects of the law or only the moral aspect of the law? Or is it just the Ten Commandments and the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Well I guess I’ll answer my own question
 If you want something done right - do it yourself! Is that a piece of profound truth or what.. A certain sergeant - may God blesses his days continually! - firmly beat it into my head once and for all.
i second L and Spongie - good points, Bob.
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 11:44:30 PM
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bob97
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Thank you for the kind words but this post is not about me, it is just a sincere effort to understand God’s word and His intent for our lives and that is really what it is...God's word.
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/2/2008 3:41:41 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 916
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ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Then the nudist druids could be said to be observing "communion" properly in a graveyard in the middle of the night, since one should not concern oneself with "where, when and how".
They'd have the communion part right. But what's the point in their proper ceremony if they haven't even partaken of the true communion, the Body and Blood of Christ Himself? Which is exactly the point I'm trying to make. Outward ceremony counts for nothing. And how much more so for those who aren't even born-again? But you can bet they probably would find a deceitful comfort in having done some kind of outward ceremony of the Church.
And that's my point. Ceremonies don't lead to righteousness, nor are they evidence of righteousness. A butt naked druid thinking he's doing something righteous by having communion around a bonfire in the middle of the night is proof of that. But one thing you won't catch a druid doing, and that's walking in the fruit of the Spirit. Walking in the Spirit is proof of a relationship with God, not keeping some law or requirement of worship.
Says you and me. However, as I said before with the swingers. They might very well say that they have "partaken of the true communion, the Body and Blood of Christ Himself?" In that case, they would also say that they exhibit the fruit of the spirit also. Indeed there are some "Christian" druid sects. On what basis do we denigh thier assertions?
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Your right the catholics did not "invent" the practice of drinking wine and eating unleavened bread on Pesach. However, it was the catholics that reduced it to bread and wine only and instituted this shorthand version as a "sacrament".
Jesus didn't have a problem changing Moses Passover. So why is it so important to adhere to literal Torah? Honest question.
I gave you an honest answer. However, let me state it more plainly. I do not believe Yeshua did change "Moses' Passover". I believe He observed the Pesach of Adonai. If He did it as Moshe did in every respect I don't know. However, I do belive they both kept it in accordance with the commandments of Adonai.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Also, one need not observe Pesach according the rabbinic tradition to observe it as Ha Torah commands.
That's a given. But why do you do it according to tradition and not scripture (assuming you do for arguments sake)? Another honest question.
I don't and I refuse to accept your premiss that I would knowingly violate the Scriptures for the sake of tradition. No, it is not an honest question. It is a presumtious premiss combined with a rediculious diacotomy. First, you presume I follow rabbinic tradition. Then you say I must choose between tradition and Scripture as if all of the rabbis did nothing but violate Scripture. By the way, when did you stop beating your wife?
However, I will answer the question as it should have been asked. How do I observe Pesach? I observe it according to the commands of Adonai as clarified and exemplified by Yeshua. I also add some rabbinics here and there to make it more personally meaningful as modern catholics and reformers have done with "the communion". There is no law against adding to the Seder as long it does not violate Ha Torah.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
In fact the term "Jewish tradition" is inaccurate, since jewish rabbis have disagreed about the proper Seder for nearly as long as there has been one.
But why? It's pretty clear in the scriptures of Moses how to do it (remember, I personally don't care). This is the exact ceremonial BS that ruins the church. Majoring in minors instead of appreciating the heart and intent of what God desires.
Maybe the fact that you don't care is why you do not know that we are not given detailed instructions on how to keep Pesach. Those who keep Pesach trust Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit) to guide them into all the truth, as they have since the first Pesach.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
How do we know this behavior is harmful to either of the spouses? They would say that, "The Spirit is what sensitizes our hearts to the feelings" of each other. They would also say you are "in the habit of carelessly and mindlessly trampling the feelings" of swingers by "clinging to a deceitful facade of external worship", that is marrage. They might even conceed that you are merely decieved, because you think you "are pleasing God, and know little to nothing about what it means to walk in the fruit of the Spirit". So, what are we to say to these people?
Get saved. Why should we expect unsaved people to have any different arguments than what you bring up here? I don't see any value in talking about walking in the Spirit using unsaved people to prove a point. They don't even have the Spirit. Their behavior is proof of that.
What is it in their behavior that leads you to believe they are not saved and on what basis do you say this? To help shorten these posts up the question regarding "Christian swingers" and "Christian druids" is the same. On what basis can we say they are not "Christian"?
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Again, you ignore my words and accuse me of defending "denominational dogma" and insist that I am imposing my beliefs on others. The truth is that I belong to no denomination nor am I imposing my beliefs on anyone. You asked, so I answered.
I'm speaking of the Messianic movement in general. You personally have not been so direct in saying that the rest of us should be doing what you do to line up with Torah. Others have been.
So, you judge me not by what I say, but by what others have said? Is this how one loves ones brother as oneself? Is this not one of the mistakes Yeshua's accuser made?
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...If this is imposing then are you not a master at imposing your beliefs on others. No one and/or nothing is forcing you to continue this conversation except our covenant. Therefore, since you believe it is only the spirit of a covenant that matters, then you can simply say that it is no longer your intent that I answer your inquiries and be done with it.
I don't fully get what you're saying here. I'm here voluntarily. If I get offended, I will leave voluntarily. That's what this forum is all about.
Go back and read my posts. I've made it clear over and over again that Messianics are free to do whatever they want to do. But I do resist the general Messianic belief that the rest of us should be doing what they are doing. That hardly qualifies as a denominational position on my part. Dogmatic? Yes! And I make no apologies for it.
That is my point. One can not force anything on someone who takes part voluntarily. Though I have seen some dogmatically browbeat and taunt others that do not hold to there doctrinal beliefs on this website, this behavior is not isolated to those who call themselves Messianic. In fact, the most flagrent attempts to force ones belief upon another, that I have seen, were not committed by both any of those people.
That said, you do also seem to believe the rest of us should do as you are doing. You clearly believe the swingers and druids should not live the way they do. Also, though I can't find it now, you have stated that you intend on convincing Messianics to live differently. I am not necessarily faulting you for this. It is commendable to wish that others experience the joy one experiences in ones beliefs and lifestyle. Isn't this the foundation of "the great commission"? Mt 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."
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It's only been through my digging into your posts that I have even a glimpse of where you're going.
Maybe that is the problem, you are anticipating my next statement, rather than listening to my current one.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
What I am getting at is if Adonai's love is expressed in how He treats us, why would He treat us differently than the Patriarchs? Does he love us differently than He does the Patriarchs?
He gave the Patriarchs a promise of something to come. We now have that promise. You'll have to ask God why He used such a long drawn out process to reveal the manifestion of His love to mankind. We are loved differently than the Patriarchs in that we have full fellowship with His love now. The patriarchs only had the promise that the Spirit would be given. His love for them was expressed in literal tangible things, like land, and cattle, etc. So in that sense, yes, God's love for them was manifested differently.
If the Patriarchs did not have the full fellowship with Adonai, then why do the Scriptures say;
Num 12:8 "With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"
De 34:10 Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.
Num 11:16 The Lord said to Moses: "Bring me seventy of Israel's elders who are known to you as leaders and officials among the people. Have them come to the Tent of Meeting, that they may stand there with you. 17 I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of the Spirit that is on you and put the Spirit on them. They will help you carry the burden of the people so that you will not have to carry it alone
Ex 31:2"See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts--"
Nu 27:18 So the Lord said to Moses, "Take Joshua son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand on him."
Neh 9:19 "Because of your great compassion you did not abandon them in the desert. By day the pillar of cloud did not cease to guide them on their path, nor the pillar of fire by night to shine on the way they were to take. 20 You gave your good Spirit to instruct them. You did not withhold your manna from their mouths, and you gave them water for their thirst."
Ps 139:7 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? 8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. 9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, 10 even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If David was called a man after Adonai's own heart, why was He not granted the freedom you appear to say we have? After all in the end of Psalm 51, after seeing that sacrifices without a right heart are unacceptable to Adonai, he says, "Then there will be righteous sacrifices, whole burnt offerings to delight you; then bulls will be offered on your altar." Was David wrong in believing that sacrifice is acceptable, if ones heart is right?
No he was not wrong. And sacrifice is an expected response to the love of God. David was obligated to literal sacrifices. But for us New Covenant believers those sacrifices are now spiritual:
"...you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 2:5)
Peter is refering us back to Ex 19 "Although the whole earth is mine, (6) you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." This was spoken
before the Tabernacle or appointing of Levitical priests. So, just as Avraham was saved first and circumcision was a later sign, so we were anointed as priests first and sacrifices were a later sign.
When Peter opposed those who would require adherence to the law for salvation He said, Acts 15:10 "Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." Thus the keeping of the law never provided salvation. I think we have agreed on this before.
Now, you have turned Peters admonition on its head and test God by putting on the necks of the (Patriarchs) a yoke that neither (you) nor ("the church") fathers have (thought necessary) to bear? The Judaisers required the Gentiles to keep the law for salvation, though they were unable to live up to that standard. You require the believers of the Tanach to keep the law for sanctification, though you refuse to do so yourself because you denigh there is any benefit in doing so. They denighed salvation to the Gentiles and you denigh our spiritual fathers the blessings of Adonai.
If you wish to say the sacrifices, or any laws for that matter, have always been spiritual that is one thing, but to say they were merely physical then and only spiritual now is to denigh the concepts of faith and grace. What of Hebrews 11, where it is recorded that the faith of believers of the Tanach was counted as rightiousness and Adonai performed great miricles through them. Show me any example of the Spiritual gifts since the sacrifice of Yeshua and I would dare say there is an equal or greater example from before.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 7/2/2008 2:22:04 PM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/2/2008 7:06:14 AM
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bjay0801
Posts: 139
Joined: 12/10/2007
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quote:
Thank you for the kind words but this post is not about me, it is just a sincere effort to understand God’s word and His intent for our lives and that is really what it is...God's word.
Bob
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**Pats bob on the Back**
All of us are trying for the same thing. 
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O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/2/2008 9:02:44 AM
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LBolt
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Ezekiel's Temple is starting to make sense for in light of what's going on in the Middle East in particular the Temple site. It looks like a reconstruction is in the works. It's reported that they have a red heifer, have 200 men who've traced the lineage back to Levi to serve as priests, have been designing various articles and instruments for Temple use. I'm wondering if this is the Temple Ezekiel saw? Built on a divided Temple mount? The one anti-Messiah desecrates.
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/2/2008 10:28:09 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 657
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Ezekiel's Temple is starting to make sense for in light of what's going on in the Middle East in particular the Temple site. It looks like a reconstruction is in the works. It's reported that they have a red heifer, have 200 men who've traced the lineage back to Levi to serve as priests, have been designing various articles and instruments for Temple use. I'm wondering if this is the Temple Ezekiel saw? Built on a divided Temple mount? The one anti-Messiah desecrates.
That's not what I heard. Islam has said no one is to even step foot on that piece of ground.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/2/2008 8:49:46 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1857
Joined: 8/10/2005
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Thank you for the kind words but this post is not about me,
Dont worry dear, we know that- we all commented primarily on the wonderful truth of God that you expressed. We actually werent praising your, undoubtedly highly commendable, persona.
As a matter of fact, we are dangerous gang. You stick around - we will eventually pluck all your feathers off. then you will definitely be the Bald Eagle ;)
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/2/2008 8:55:07 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1857
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
Spongie:
Outward ceremony counts for nothing. And how much more so for those who aren't even born-again? But you can bet they probably would find a deceitful comfort in having done some kind of outward ceremony of the Church.
And that's my point. Ceremonies don't lead to righteousness, nor are they evidence of righteousness. A butt naked druid thinking he's doing something righteous by having communion around a bonfire in the middle of the night is proof of that. But one thing you won't catch a druid doing, and that's walking in the fruit of the Spirit. Walking in the Spirit is proof of a relationship with God, not keeping some law or requirement of worship.
Blue T:
Says you and me. However, as I said before with the swingers. They might very well say that they have "partaken of the true communion, the Body and Blood of Christ Himself?" In that case, they would also say that they exhibit the fruit of the spirit also. Indeed there are some "Christian" druid sects. On what basis do we denigh thier assertions?
I didn’t mean to meddle but I see Sponge being put into uncomfortable position of having to repeat the same thing he just said, so allow me a try here.
Dear Blue, this is what Sponge is saying :
Only people that are born again(from HS) are saved.
Born again people's actions are influenced by the Spirit, they try to obey God’s word.
We don’t know who is saved- we can’s see the Spirit.Outward actions give us general idea of who is saved. Truly saved person will try to change his ways when confronted. Yet, sexual sin by itself is not an indicator of a salvation status- David was an idolater & murderer. Yet he was confronted and repented. If druid does so as well – we can speculate he might be a child of God.
Most likely druid wont listen, for he is merely religious, not saved.
Paul warned the bunch in Corinth that true saved Christians shouldn’t be commiting all the terrible sexual sins as they were.
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/2/2008 9:03:41 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1857
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
Sponge: Go back and read my posts. I've made it clear over and over again that Messianics are free to do whatever they want to do. But I do resist the general Messianic belief that the rest of us should be doing what they are doing.
BlueT: ..... you do also seem to believe the rest of us should do as you are doing. You clearly believe the swingers and druids should not live the way they do. Also, though I can't find it now, you have stated that you intend on convincing Messianics to live differently.
Sponge, many other posters and I etc. keep telling, affirming, convincing everybody here that we believe .. see above, i highligthed Sponge's words.
You can be assured of that ,BT.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/2/2008 10:57:20 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1666
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
Spongie:
Outward ceremony counts for nothing. And how much more so for those who aren't even born-again? But you can bet they probably would find a deceitful comfort in having done some kind of outward ceremony of the Church.
And that's my point. Ceremonies don't lead to righteousness, nor are they evidence of righteousness. A butt naked druid thinking he's doing something righteous by having communion around a bonfire in the middle of the night is proof of that. But one thing you won't catch a druid doing, and that's walking in the fruit of the Spirit. Walking in the Spirit is proof of a relationship with God, not keeping some law or requirement of worship.
Blue T:
Says you and me. However, as I said before with the swingers. They might very well say that they have "partaken of the true communion, the Body and Blood of Christ Himself?" In that case, they would also say that they exhibit the fruit of the spirit also. Indeed there are some "Christian" druid sects. On what basis do we deny their assertions?
I didn’t mean to meddle but I see Sponge being put into uncomfortable position of having to repeat the same thing he just said, so allow me a try here.
Dear Blue, this is what Sponge is saying:
Only people that are born again (from HS) are saved.
Born again people's actions are influenced by the Spirit, they try to obey God’s word.
We don’t know who is saved- we can’s see the Spirit. Outward actions give us general idea of who is saved. Truly saved person will try to change his ways when confronted. Yet, sexual sin by itself is not an indicator of a salvation status- David was an idolater & murderer. Yet he was confronted and repented. If druid does so as well – we can speculate he might be a child of God.
Most likely druid wont listen, for he is merely religious, not saved.
Paul warned the bunch in Corinth that true saved Christians shouldn’t be committing all the terrible sexual sins as they were.
Greetings,
quote:
Walking in the Spirit is proof of a relationship with God, not keeping some law or requirement of worship.
The point is that when one walks in the Spirit... the fruit always manifests in an outward expression according to its kind, and because that Law dictates thatif we are still on the earth.... then it is from the inside out.
"Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind.
If one has the Spirit then we produce after the same.
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Only people that are born again (from HS) are saved.
Born again people's actions are influenced by the Spirit, they try to obey God’s word.
You may wish to take a look at this one,
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
14 And (in addition to)....as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
You guys are really blowing a hole in the concepts of the trinity...
Folks are not saved through the HS, they are saved through Jesus Christ, who first had to come down in order to ascend, and through Jesus Christ.... the HS descends “from” the Father =v13.
John 6:44 - Show Context
No one can come to Me unless the Father: who sent Me: draws him ;
The Bible says that the world does not know the (HS) …..so unless the Father “who sent Jesus”… draws him... the HS does nothing!
Remember….(I am the vine, you are the branches; "without Me;" = no HS = ….you can do nothing!!)
And… If Jesus meant to say the HS; yet tells Nicodemus to the contrary; then Jesus should have said the HS,
but Jesus said in the order of occurrences that…..No one can come to Me…. unless the Father ….not the HS draws him…
Because the HS comes after we come to Jesus.... because the world does not know Him to be drawn in the first place!
You guys are really blowing a hole in the concepts of the trinity by your words...
You may have meant that, but your choice of words and spongies "BUT" in every example... kind of throws most of us off the chart... so to speak! 
LG
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Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 12:22:55 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1143
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...as I said before with the swingers. They might very well say that they have "partaken of the true communion, the Body and Blood of Christ Himself?" In that case, they would also say that they exhibit the fruit of the spirit also. Indeed there are some "Christian" druid sects. On what basis do we denigh thier assertions? ...On what basis can we say they are not "Christian"?
"So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature... The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:16, 19-21)
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I do not believe Yeshua did change "Moses' Passover". I believe He observed the Pesach of Adonai. If He did it as Moshe did in every respect I don't know. However, I do belive they both kept it in accordance with the commandments of Adonai.
I know Jesus Himself didn't change it. And He obviously finds no problem with the change others before him made to it. But it is a change that is not in accordance with the commandments of Adonai.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...By the way, when did you stop beating your wife?
Stopped?
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
However, I will answer the question as it should have been asked. How do I observe Pesach? I observe it according to the commands of Adonai as clarified and exemplified by Yeshua. I also add some rabbinics here and there to make it more personally meaningful...
Well I guess a dash of rabbinics here and there never hurt anybody.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...There is no law against adding to the Seder as long it does not violate Ha Torah.
...Maybe the fact that you don't care is why you do not know that we are not given detailed instructions on how to keep Pesach.
Torah? Torah you say? Ha! Adding bread and wine to it is in direct violation of God's command to not add to or take away from all He commanded in Torah:
"See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it." (Deut. 12:32)
Don't misunderstand. I personally don't care what anyone does with Passover, but please explain how one can defend the bread and wine as a legitimate part of a Mosaic Passover (a clear addition to the law) and then get excited when the church keeps the passover using only the bread and wine part of it.
If the bread and wine are indeed legitimate parts of a Passover, and Messianics accept that a Passover can be changed, why do they get upset over the Church using only the bread and wine part of a passover? Especially since it's the only part Christ used to illustrate the meaning of what He was about to do for mankind. Again, I pesonally don't care how a christian chooses to observe a passover/ communion service. I'm just interested in your opinion on the points I've brought up (I don't even know if you personally do the wine and bread thing).
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Those who keep Pesach trust Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit) to guide them into all the truth, as they have since the first Pesach.
Are you saying it is possible to hear from the Holy Spirit apart from the law?
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, you judge me not by what I say, but by what others have said? Is this how one loves ones brother as oneself? Is this not one of the mistakes Yeshua's accuser made?
Sort out what applies to your particular belief, toss the rest to the forum dogs. If you feel compelled to make sure I don't misunderstand something about your particular sect of Messianic belief then lay it on me. I sometimes have to let Messianics know that I don't subscribe to the 'law is abolished' argument as some in my camp understand it, but I often have to live with being addressed as if I do.
It would be hard to narrow our conversations to any one sect becaue I am guilty of trying to make my posts meaningful to as many readers as possible. Maybe you can simply tell me when something doesn't apply to you and you can refer me to someone you know who it does apply to for their opinion of the matter. I often use the phrase, 'take it up with the Catholics' when I'm broad stroked into a common reformist argument that I don't subscribe to.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If the Patriarchs did not have the full fellowship with Adonai, then why do the Scriptures say;
Num 12:8 "With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"
De 34:10 Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.
Num 11:16 The Lord said to Moses: "Bring me seventy of Israel's elders who are known to you as leaders and officials among the people. Have them come to the Tent of Meeting, that they may stand there with you. 17 I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of the Spirit that is on you and put the Spirit on them. They will help you carry the burden of the people so that you will not have to carry it alone
Ex 31:2"See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts--"
Nu 27:18 So the Lord said to Moses, "Take Joshua son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand on him."
Only select individuals with specific callings and duties were annointed with the Holy Spirit in the old covennat. Thus the significance of all believers now being 'in the ministry' so to speak in the New Covenant. Now all of God's people from the least to the greatest have the calling and annointing to minister in the power of the Holy Spirit in some service to God. We all, like Bezalel and Oholiab, have been gifted and equipped with skill and knowledge to build the Temple, the dwelling place of God.
"So Bezalel, Oholiab and every skilled person to whom the LORD has given skill and ability to know how to carry out all the work of constructing the sanctuary are to do the work just as the LORD has commanded." (Exodus 36:1)
We're all in the ministry now, baby, building the house of God according to plan. It ain't just for a select few anymore.
Even the annointed men of old did not have the revelation that even the common man has today.
"Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. (1 Peter 1:10-11)
For all the 'Spirit' you defend they had access to, they surely didn't know what the Holy Spirit later revealed to us through Paul. What do you think distinguishes an old covenant experience with the Holy Spirit and a new covenant experience? You and others seem to suggest there is no difference, essentially making Ezekiel's and Jeremiah's prophecies meaningless.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Neh 9:19 "Because of your great compassion you did not abandon them in the desert. By day the pillar of cloud did not cease to guide them on their path, nor the pillar of fire by night to shine on the way they were to take. 20 You gave your good Spirit to instruct them. You did not withhold your manna from their mouths, and you gave them water for their thirst."
The Spirit was manifested to the common man primarily through physical tangible things (clouds, fire, stone tablets, manna, urim & thurim, etc.). All inferior modes of expression compared to how we know the Spirit in our inward parts. That's the beauty and glory of the New Testament, the indwelling Holy Presence of God Himself in the believer. Not just signs and various manifestations of the Spirit around a person.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Ps 139:7 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? 8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. 9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, 10 even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast.
David was one of those select few I spoke about.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Peter is refering us back to Ex 19 "Although the whole earth is mine, (6) you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." This was spoken
before the Tabernacle or appointing of Levitical priests. So, just as Avraham was saved first and circumcision was a later sign, so we were anointed as priests first and sacrifices were a later sign.
You make too much of what it means that God simply had His plan all laid out before He put it into motion and brought it to fruition. If one did not make the required sacrifices under the old law you could not expect to be accepted by God. No matter how 'called out' and 'Hebrew' you thought you were.
Both Jesus and Paul explain the deceitfulness of simply being physically 'Jewish' and 'sons of Abraham'. I'm sure many old covenant Jews took false comfort in their sacrifices believing they were acceptable simply because they were 'Jewish', and 'sons of Abraham', but were in fact quite unacceptable to God.
Even the prophets spoke of the danger of this deceit. Proper sacrifices do not prove your relationship with God. Sacrifice will never replace or make up for lack of obedience in walking in the character of God. It's deceitful to rely on your sacrifices, no matter how required you think they are, as evidence of right standing with God. That's one of the reasons why I resist the teaching that 'keeping God's commands' as proof of salvation and rightness with God means keeping the ceremonial parts of the law. They have never proved one's right relationship with God. Read this link and tell me if you still think correct sacrifices prove one's right standing with God.
These are the spiritual sacrifices that God is looking for:
"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. (Psalm 51:17)
After that, then the spiritual sacrifice of your body in service to God is acceptable:
"...I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship." (Romans 12:1)
I'll get to the last part of your post tomorrow. My head hurts.
Hey, and it's okay to lighten things up with a little levity. (Just don't make fun of my age.)
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 5:01:42 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 916
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
"So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature... The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:16, 19-21)
So, you accept a list of unacceptable behaviors from Paul, but refuse to accept the list Moshe tells us come directly from Adonai. I accept Paul's list to, but not just because Paul says it. I trust Paul because he derives his teachings from Yeshua, who lived the Torah lifestyle and indeed was Ha Torah made flesh.
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I know Jesus Himself didn't change it. And He obviously finds no problem with the change others before him made to it. But it is a change that is not in accordance with the commandments of Adonai.
Of whom are you speaking, what changes were made, and how do you know they were acceptable?
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...There is no law against adding to the Seder as long it does not violate Ha Torah.
...Maybe the fact that you don't care is why you do not know that we are not given detailed instructions on how to keep Pesach.
"See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it." (Deut. 12:32)
You are not listening. There is no specific Seder in the Scriptures. There are various things that we are commanded to do, but we are not always told how we are to do them. Various Seders have been derived from those things that are commanded, as a means of making sure that the things Adonai wants us to do are done. They are much like many of the "sunday school" songs that help church goers remember the fruits of the Spirit. Putting the Scriptures together with other things to help us remember what the Scriptures actually say is not adding to the Scriptures as long as those things do not violate Scripture themselves and we don't require others to do those parts that are not in the Scriptures.
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. . . please explain how one can defend the bread and wine as a legitimate part of a Mosaic Passover (a clear addition to the law) and then get excited when the church keeps the passover using only the bread and wine part of it.
The bread is not Mosaic, as you are attempting to use the term, it is a command of Adonai that was compiled with the other commands of Adonai by Moshe. (Num 9:10) ". . .celebrate the Lord's Passover. 11 They are to celebrate it on the fourteenth day of the second month at twilight. They are to eat the lamb, together with unleavened bread and bitter herbs." Wine is not required by Ha Torah, the recognition of what it traditionally represents, that is the joy of life, is a harmless addition to most Seders. Since it is usually at the table already, its use does not constitute an addition to Torah unless one insists that it be. If it had Yeshua would have pointed that out. But He did not. Knowing that the bread is commanded and his disciples observed a traditional Seder, He merely pointed out a significance to those things, as He did with the Mikvah(washing) that is an unrequire part of most Seders. He did not command them to do anything new, for the traditonal Seder includes a reference of the coming of Elijah(symbolic of Ha Meshiach) and the cup of redemption. Yeshua is merely applying those things to Himself.
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If the bread and wine are indeed legitimate parts of a Passover, and Messianics accept that a Passover can be changed, why do they get upset over the Church using only the bread and wine part of a passover? Especially since it's the only part Christ used to illustrate the meaning of what He was about to do for mankind.
It is not Pesach that is changed it is those parts of the Seder that are traditonal. The Scriptural parts of a Seder are always there. Also, as I stated above there is more that is required by Adonai than just the bread and one of the cups. Also, Yeshua accepted the traditional Seder when he acknowledged the parts of it that are not in Ha Torah. Now, He does not require those traditional parts to be in the Seder, He only says that when one does include them one should remember the significance of them. By the same token, when He dipped in the cup it could have been the required bitter herbs that He dipped with them. Thus, the confusion over the meaning since everyone dips in succession in a traditional Seder. Therefore, one can not presume that something that was required by the Scriptures was not observed simply because it was not pointed out. Also, on can not presume something traditional was raised to the level of a commandment simply because significance was placed on it at that time.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Those who keep Pesach trust Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit) to guide them into all the truth, as they have since the first Pesach.
Are you saying it is possible to hear from the Holy Spirit apart from the law?
I never said it wasn't. What I say is Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit) would not violate Ha Torah in what He says. The point of what you quote me saying is that Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit) has always been there in the hearts of His people guiding them in the proper keeping of Pesach and protecting them from tha angel of death.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If the Patriarchs did not have the full fellowship with Adonai, then why do the Scriptures say. . .
We're all in the ministry now, baby, building the house of God according to plan. It ain't just for a select few anymore.
As were they, Ex 19:5 "'. . .Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."
quote:
Even the annointed men of old did not have the revelation that even the common man has today.
"Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. (1 Peter 1:10-11)
This passage talks of time and circumstance. Ha Ruach Meshiach (The Spirit of Messiah) which was in them had already revealed to them the significance and that is why they sought the time and circumstance. I contend that, many who are aware of the time and circumstance today don't have the revelation of the significance that the prophets had. Didn't you imply that significance was more important than time and place?
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For all the 'Spirit' you defend they had access to, they surely didn't know what the Holy Spirit later revealed to us through Paul.
Why not?
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What do you think distinguishes an old covenant experience with the Holy Spirit and a new covenant experience? You and others seem to suggest there is no difference
Do you always answer your own questions? Again, I do not need to be lumped in with "others". I judge things on there merits and not on who else agrees or disagrees with me. I only quote a source when it is on point. As is the case with Ezekiel and Jeremiah who's prophecies are as meaningful today as they where when they spoke then, for we are still in need of a watchman on the wall to warn us of threats to our well being. We also need the encouragement that we as a nation will return to Adonai and again recieve His blessing.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Neh 9:19 "Because of your great compassion you did not abandon them in the desert. By day the pillar of cloud did not cease to guide them on their path, nor the pillar of fire by night to shine on the way they were to take. 20 You gave your good Spirit to instruct them. You did not withhold your manna from their mouths, and you gave them water for their thirst."
The Spirit was manifested to the common man primarily through physical tangible things (clouds, fire, stone tablets, manna, urim & thurim, etc.). All inferior modes of expression compared to how we know the Spirit in our inward parts. That's the beauty and glory of the New Testament, the indwelling Holy Presence of God Himself in the believer. Not just signs and various manifestations of the Spirit around a person.
Did you not see that Adonai gave His good Spirit to instruct them? Yes, there were physical manifestations as I believe there are today. However, you ignore that Spirit as you suggest they did. Now, I admit some did ignore Adonais Spirit in times past as many do today. However, I submit that you have an evil eye when it come to Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit). You seem to be saying that you are more blessed than "the annointed men of old" and think more higly of youself than you aught. You speak of Moshe's Law as if he set himself up as their leader, but I do not think either of us can hold a candle to him when it comes to humility. Isn't meekness one of the fruits of the Spirit?
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Ps 139:7 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? 8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. 9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, 10 even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast.
David was one of those select few I spoke about.
There are also a select few today.
quote:
You make too much of what it means that God simply had His plan all laid out before He put it into motion and brought it to fruition. If one did not make the required sacrifices under the old law you could not expect to be accepted by God. No matter how 'called out' and 'Hebrew' you thought you were.
Both Jesus and Paul explain the deceitfulness of simply being physically 'Jewish' and 'sons of Abraham'. I'm sure many old covenant Jews took false comfort in their sacrifices believing they were acceptable simply because they were 'Jewish', and 'sons of Abraham', but were in fact quite unacceptable to God.
Even the prophets spoke of the danger of this deceit. Proper sacrifices do not prove your relationship with God. Sacrifice will never replace or make up for lack of obedience in walking in the character of God. It's deceitful to rely on your sacrifices, no matter how required you think they are, as evidence of right standing with God. That's one of the reasons why I resist the teaching that 'keeping God's commands' as proof of salvation and rightness with God means keeping the ceremonial parts of the law. They have never proved one's right relationship with God. Read this link and tell me if you still think correct sacrifices prove one's right standing with God.
These are the spiritual sacrifices that God is looking for:
"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. (Psalm 51:17)
After that, then the spiritual sacrifice of your body in service to God is acceptable:
"...I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship." (Romans 12:1)
I don't recall saying anything about being 'called out' and 'Hebrew'. However, I do not think Yeshua or Paul talked of the deceitfulness of simply being physically 'Jewish' and 'sons of Abraham'. If I recall, they talked about those who thought of themselves as superior because of those things. It is much like many "new testiment christians" who take false comfort in their doctrines, believing they are acceptable simply because they call themselves "Christian" and "sons of the reformation". I agree anyone who thinks himself acceptable to Adonai simply because of his heritage physical or theological is unacceptable to Adonai.
In your link, you believe Isaiah is saying that sacrifices "have never proved one's right relationship with God", yet just before that you said, "If one did not make the required sacrifices under the old law you could not expect to be accepted by God." You say Adonai is looking for "a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart" as a sacrifice, yet you boldly say David, the man who penned those words had to make sacrifices in order to be accepted by Adonai? Is a broken and contrite heart enough to secure Adonai's blessing or not, and if it is, who are you to deny David that blessing merely due to what the atheists call an accident of time?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 7/3/2008 5:27:08 AM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 10:35:52 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 754
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Born again people's actions are influenced by the Spirit, they try to obey God’s word.
This is a powerful statement, which is why Blue, BJay, LG, Lapi and myself have been blowing the shofar on Crosswalk about the importance of Torah. This statement is what the Bible means to "walk in the Spirit" or "live Spirit-filled life". It's a life out of one's love for YAH and man that loving obeys His word. The issue then becomes which word is applicable and which is not. Or what do the scriptures teach and what has been traditionally taught to be the meaning. That's what I've tried to come against...the tradition of man-made theology that says, Torah is done away with...caput!
This is what Blue has been trying to gradually guide Sponge into to seeing. What is "walking in Spirit and in truth?" Psa 51:19 blows the door wide open. O.K I won't but in sorry Blue and Sponge!
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/3/2008 11:00:00 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1143
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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I've got a small window of time to respond quickly. Here goes...
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, you accept a list of unacceptable behaviors from Paul...
Yes.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...but refuse to accept the list Moshe tells us come directly from Adonai.
Yes. That is if you mean Torah in it's entirety, and to the letter.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I accept Paul's list to, but not just because Paul says it. I trust Paul because he derives his teachings from Yeshua, who lived the Torah lifestyle and indeed was Ha Torah made flesh.
But what I don't subscribe to is just because the law says 'do not committ adultery' that it automatically means we also must still observe a literal Sabbath, or keep a particular literal Feast, for instance. That's narrow thinking that ignores so much else we now know, and which is the point we need to address specifically. Nobody here is tossing out the requirement to uphold moral requirements of God as given in Torah.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
I know Jesus Himself didn't change it. And He obviously finds no problem with the change others before him made to it. But it is a change that is not in accordance with the commandments of Adonai.
Of whom are you speaking, what changes were made, and how do you know they were acceptable?
The wine. And Jesus didn't raise a stink about it being part of the passover He was observing on that night recorded for us in scripture.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
There is no specific Seder in the Scriptures. There are various things that we are commanded to do, but we are not always told how we are to do them.
Without checking, I think Moses was very specific about how to keep a passover.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...we don't require others to do those parts that are not in the Scriptures.
Good plan.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...The bread is not Mosaic, as you are attempting to use the term, it is a command of Adonai that was compiled with the other commands of Adonai by Moshe. (Num 9:10)
I don't get what you're saying. Compiled by Moses and included in the law is what makes it Mosaic.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
". . .celebrate the Lord's Passover. 11 They are to celebrate it on the fourteenth day of the second month at twilight. They are to eat the lamb, together with unleavened bread and bitter herbs."
Okay, so we're cool with the bread part of the church's passover (aka communion).
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Wine is not required by Ha Torah, the recognition of what it traditionally represents, that is the joy of life, is a harmless addition to most Seders. Since it is usually at the table already, its use does not constitute an addition to Torah unless one insists that it be. If it had Yeshua would have pointed that out. But He did not. Knowing that the bread is commanded and his disciples observed a traditional Seder, He merely pointed out a significance to those things, as He did with the Mikvah(washing) that is an unrequire part of most Seders. He did not command them to do anything new, for the traditonal Seder includes a reference of the coming of Elijah(symbolic of Ha Meshiach) and the cup of redemption. Yeshua is merely applying those things to Himself.
The bread is legit, and Messianics approve of the wine as an acceptable addition to a passover. So what is it that Messianics get their undies in a bunch over concerning the church's passover observance and what Christ told us we should/ could do in rememberance of Him?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
It is not Pesach that is changed it is those parts of the Seder that are traditonal. The Scriptural parts of a Seder are always there. Also, as I stated above there is more that is required by Adonai than just the bread and one of the cups...
I don't have a problem with this. I mean, if you insist on having a Mosaic passover. But the point we need to get to is whether or not we really have to continue in the original requirements.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Yeshua accepted the traditional Seder when he acknowledged the parts of it that are not in Ha Torah.
Yes, that's what I've been defending.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Now, He does not require those traditional parts to be in the Seder, He only says that when one does include them one should remember the significance of them.
It's funny that someone who gravitates toward the rule of hard and fast commands would not view Jesus's words as clear dictates for the Chruch rather than optional suggestions. "Do this" kind of strips it of it's optional qualities, but it definately was not accompanied by a literal time table or any restrictions similar to the passover of the old covenant. I can't even remember the last time I did communion. We're not big on it in our church.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
By the same token, when He dipped in the cup it could have been the required bitter herbs that He dipped with them. Thus, the confusion over the meaning since everyone dips in succession in a traditional Seder. Therefore, one can not presume that something that was required by the Scriptures was not observed simply because it was not pointed out. Also, on can not presume something traditional was raised to the level of a commandment simply because significance was placed on it at that time.
Again, I find this kind of humorous. Of all the people who would rush to accept this as a commandment of God dismiss it as a mere suggestion.
Don't misunderstand. I'm not going to get on board with it being a hard and fast commandment, but I will defend it as an example that Christ plainly told us to follow. But without all the OT style rigidness of proper procedures and timetables (thus the meaning of 'whenever').
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...The point of what you quote me saying is that Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit) has always been there in the hearts of His people guiding them in the proper keeping of Pesach and protecting them from tha angel of death.
In their hearts???? If this was true, why the necessity for a later period of time in which the law would be written in their hearts by the Holy Spirit? I don't get it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
As were they, Ex 19:5 "'. . .Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."
quote:
Even the annointed men of old did not have the revelation that even the common man has today.
"Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. (1 Peter 1:10-11)
This passage talks of time and circumstance. Ha Ruach Meshiach (The Spirit of Messiah) which was in them had already revealed to them the significance and that is why they sought the time and circumstance. I contend that, many who are aware of the time and circumstance today don't have the revelation of the significance that the prophets had. Didn't you imply that significance was more important than time and place?
Woe, dude, you're way off the point here.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
For all the 'Spirit' you defend they had access to, they surely didn't know what the Holy Spirit later | | |
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