|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2008 4:46:20 PM
|
|
|
Lapidoth
Posts: 3614
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I believe it's very important that we learn about the books of Moses. However, the Bible says we aren't under its constraints anymore, and the learning of the books of Moses teaches us why we need Jesus and how things got to where they are.
In the same vain, I can say, "It's important we learn about the Constitution, however
the Congress says we aren't under its constraints anymore."
Like I said, it's views derived by the "thought process."
I'm not sure I follow...
There have always been at least and not less than 2 "thoughts."
Western and Hebrew.
I didn't like the term Eastern as it's confusing in itself.
Western which is the USA, from the Roman-Greco.
Everything here is from Rome/Greece. Our structures, our life style,
our thinking.
We keep trying to make the Word conform to our interpretations.
Which is called "isegesis." When we are supposed to use "exegesis."
Taking it as it was written with it's original meanings.
The Constitution had no need to be re-written, yet that's what man,
our Congress, does on a daily basis. Changing it to suit themselves.
We do the same thing with the Word of God (TORAH).
We continually re-write it to suit ourselves. If not in print, in our minds.
I'm probably stumbling all over it trying to explain a thought process.
So forgive me in that. All have need to broaden our way of looking at
the narrow way God instructed it. [lol. another abstract thought].
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2008 4:50:08 PM
|
|
|
LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2458
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I believe it's very important that we learn about the books of Moses. However, the Bible says we aren't under its constraints anymore, and the learning of the books of Moses teaches us why we need Jesus and how things got to where they are.
In the same vain, I can say, "It's important we learn about the Constitution, however
the Congress says we aren't under its constraints anymore."
Like I said, it's views derived by the "thought process."
Greetings,
Hey Lap...could you do us service and post up what you have gathered (if you have studied it ..that is) can you offer what and explain what the Talitha is…in v41 And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha
So I explain to MC what the prophecy in Mark 5-Luke 8 is 
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2008 4:51:44 PM
|
|
|
drussell52
Posts: 208
Joined: 4/24/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
|
At the risk of being "replaced" I am going to make some comments directed to Mcfatty and Spongeblog in particular concerning Galatians and covenants in general. If you wish to reply send me a PM as I spent an hour trying to find a recent post that got moved here but couldn't find. Thanks moderator! Galatians is likely addressing a situation where a sect of Jews commonly referred to as Judaizers, (prefer influencers) are trying to thwart the gospel Paul had previously presented to this community and urge proselytic conversion, i.e. circumcision, conversion, etc. The "Torah" instruction of God is defined as instruction. Both testaments, compatible, are filled with commandments on how to live fulfilled lives. So Galatians is addressing a problem specific to that community and urging that community to turn back to the faith presented them by Paul, who, got his authority from the LORD. Would not references to the law, also include the penalty of the law that believers are freed from? Is God writing His new or (renewed) covenant mentioned in Jeremiah on your heart/mind? Jeremiah 31. Consider too the more dispensational 1 is in their tehology, the more law and grace and gospel are sharply defined. The folk who are less or not dispensational, see covenants as stories in a house, one proceeds from the other but is not anulled by the latest greatest covenant. Again, please reply via PM as this thread is quite cumbersome to navigate. Thank you for indulging me..
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2008 4:55:56 PM
|
|
|
mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
But you make statements of which you truly don't know
what you are saying. Unless you have taken the time to
"be" on the "other side" you don't know the thought process.
Yes I have been on the other side. And I was always condeming myself thinking even after confessing the sin I commited and still feel that for some reason God didn't accept my forgiveness.
I have a father-in-law who is hung up on that same thinking and has come out and condem me for not having his thought pattern too. Wonders today why we don't communicate very well. Gee could it be you come up with verses, you say are in the bible and could not be found. Made rules for certian members of his family. Which was in his mind was scriptual, yet excused others to do crime without punishment.
Told me that I should do tough love to my Daughter like he did to his, who is my wife. Which one day told her to get into the car drove down the street. Then told her to get out of the car and don't come back. Which left her without a place to put her head down. Because it is scriptual he stated. Which I replied please find that for me.
I 'm sorry but my Dad was very knowledgeable in the books of bible did not raise me to be stupid in what the main focus was in the stories were told. I worked side by side with my dad whom we would have disscusion on what the words really mean.
So from a person who married into a family. Which is quit screwed up as far as being spiritual. But they know it all. It's to bad but building more storage barns and cheating you labors don't quite make it.
I heard a speaker last Sunday who was from the UCC. Which first thing that entered my mind was they accept homos in high places in their congregation. But low and behold he spoke the truth on why Israel landed in Babylon. Because their sins and good old U.S.A is not far behind them. He was using the whole book of Isaiah for his text.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2008 5:12:41 PM
|
|
|
mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
If Lot would have taught Sodom and Gomorrah, what he had learned from his uncle. They may have been around yet today.
Let’s take a peek….
If I remember there was some agreements being worked out between God and Abraham over this issue, and If I remember correctly the Lord said
20 And the Lord said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know."
Now we have to ask ourselves .... if Lot was the only righteous one found in the city, then who made the outcry AGAINST the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?
Okay you are having a hard time reading the fine print?
God doesn't go on long vacations so I would guess he saw what was happening in those cities. Remember they were selfish and unconcerned about anyone else except for themselves. If Lot would haved told them they need to help each other and love each other and not just sexually. Do what was written in the Noahide laws, then they would probably would made the survial story. Because of the great blindness in their eyes from having those tar pites and making great wealth off from them. This why the are no more of those cities which would teach us not to have those same thought patterns. But guess what we do and that is why we are having great economics problems here in the U.S.A..
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2008 5:42:22 PM
|
|
|
LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2458
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
If Lot would have taught Sodom and Gomorrah, what he had learned from his uncle. They may have been around yet today.
Let’s take a peek….
If I remember there was some agreements being worked out between God and Abraham over this issue, and If I remember correctly the Lord said
20 And the Lord said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know."
Now we have to ask ourselves .... if Lot was the only righteous one found in the city, then who made the outcry AGAINST the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?
Okay you are having a hard time reading the fine print?
I have no hard time with any word from the scriptures.
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2008 6:03:51 PM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I believe it's very important that we learn about the books of Moses. However, the Bible says we aren't under its constraints anymore, and the learning of the books of Moses teaches us why we need Jesus and how things got to where they are.
In the same vain, I can say, "It's important we learn about the Constitution, however
the Congress says we aren't under its constraints anymore."
Like I said, it's views derived by the "thought process."
I'm not sure I follow...
There have always been at least and not less than 2 "thoughts."
Western and Hebrew.
I didn't like the term Eastern as it's confusing in itself.
Western which is the USA, from the Roman-Greco.
Everything here is from Rome/Greece. Our structures, our life style,
our thinking.
We keep trying to make the Word conform to our interpretations.
Which is called "isegesis." When we are supposed to use "exegesis."
Taking it as it was written with it's original meanings.
The Constitution had no need to be re-written, yet that's what man,
our Congress, does on a daily basis. Changing it to suit themselves.
We do the same thing with the Word of God (TORAH).
We continually re-write it to suit ourselves. If not in print, in our minds.
I'm probably stumbling all over it trying to explain a thought process.
So forgive me in that. All have need to broaden our way of looking at
the narrow way God instructed it. [lol. another abstract thought].
I am not applying anything from Western law to the writings of the Bible. I'm simply reading the Bible for what it says. There's no rewriting!
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2008 7:22:10 PM
|
|
|
LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2458
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I believe it's very important that we learn about the books of Moses. However, the Bible says we aren't under its constraints anymore, and the learning of the books of Moses teaches us why we need Jesus and how things got to where they are.
In the same vain, I can say, "It's important we learn about the Constitution, however
the Congress says we aren't under its constraints anymore."
Like I said, it's views derived by the "thought process."
Greetings,
Hey Lap...could you do us service and post up what you have gathered (if you have studied it ..that is) can you offer what and explain what the Talitha is…in v41 And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha
So I explain to MC what the prophecy in Mark 5-Luke 8 is
LG
Sorry Lap, I meant the tallit (tälçt`), in Judaism, four-cornered, fringed shawl
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2008 7:33:54 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1543
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
Spongeblog
Now take this passage from Romans 13:8-10 that says we are to be continually paying the debt of love we owe one another (as established by the law), and compare it to the context surrounding Colossians 2:14. There Paul talks about the release from the debt (and therefore the judgement) of handwritten laws of Festivals, New Moons, Sabbaths.
He says those debts have been nailed to the cross releasing us from the judgement of those debts that once stood against us (for they were never satisfied). And as I contend, those debts were not simply removed (abolished), but paid in full by the work of Christ and therefore need no continual payment on our part. Which is unlike the law of love which is to remain as a continuing debt over us, and a debt we are in fact to be judged by. But it is a judgement we need not fear if we satisfy that debt by bearing the easy yoke of Christ and walking in the Holy Spirit. But it's clear that we do not have to work plowing the ground of the old covenant laws of worship for God anymore. With or without the Holy Spirit--doesn't matter. We've been released from that debt of service.
Ok, let’s make the comparison. (Romans 13:8-10) Have no debt to any man except the debt we owe to Yeshua, which we are to acknowledge through our actions toward others.
(Colossians 2:14) 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
In context, we are made alive and our sins are forgiven in spite of the fact that Ha Torah and those who would use it to question our salvation stand as our accusers. Yeshua triumphed over those accusations. Therefore, don’t let anyone judge your standing before Adonai based on what you eat or drink or whether you do or do not keep the appointed times. That said, Col. 2:16 does not say there is no advantage to eating Kosher and keeping the appointed times, while Rom 13:8-10 tells us that the commandments regarding indebtedness are applicable today. So, in these passages, there appears to be no conflict with living a Torah lifestyle and encouraging others to do the same, as long as no one questions ones standing before Adonai based on these things. Therefore, we are released from the judgment related to Ha Torah, but there is no promise of a right to the related blessings or avoidance of related curses associated with the various commandments.
quote:
Paul says the externals prove nothing and are powerless to change a person. Over and over he uses circumcision as the example that proves that. What you believe is exactly contrary to what the scriptures say. Externals accomplish nothing in regard to moving us to righteous deeds and prove nothing about our relationship with God.
As seen above, only Adonai can judge whether ones actions improve ones relationship with Him. That is not for us to judge. However, there are blessings and curses that follow from remembering or not remembering Adonai’s commandments. If I may use a secular example, it is generally accepted that if one wishes to be happy, one should act as if one were happy and the feelings will follow. Thus there are natural (created by Adonai) consequences to ones actions.
quote:
The lengthy NT instructions regarding how we are to control ourselves and treat others are so crystal clear in the Bible. And the NT also speaks of how high and above character is beyond the externals. That's why I've abandoned the denominational trappings of Christianity and focus purely on the qualities of character made so clear and plain in scripture. And I seize any opportunity to lead others to walk this same path. But I do preserve everyone's privelege to conduct their meetings in the way they want to as long as they don't tell the rest of us they've pegged the way God really wants us to do it. I don't believe God has any specific instructions for how we gather outside of the general guidance Paul gives us.
This a very confusing paragraph: “The lengthy NT instructions regarding how we are to control ourselves and treat others are so crystal clear in the Bible.” Yet, “I don't believe God has any specific instructions for how we gather outside of the general guidance Paul gives us.”
I say this because if the Apostolic Writings have lengthy crystal clear instructions, this would appear to be very similar to commandments. If Adonai has no specific instructions and only gives us general guidance from Paul, how are we to determine how to handle those things that Paul does not address?
quote:
Anyway, character is the only thing that won't solicit a debate, or divide the church into denominations and sects. Do you realize if the entire church dedicated itself to the principles of character as taught in the NT instead of on procedures and doctrines and beliefs that the cults would disappear, and we wouldn't have anything to argue about? Have you noticed we're not dividing over this matter of character? We're dividing over meaningless methods and procedures, and matters of theology that Paul says have no consequence to how we treat our fellow man (Col. 2). Is the Church as a whole ever going to wake up to these truths, or will the true church continue to the end as a kind of secret society (as someone in this forum suggests) interspersed among the multitude?
It has been said that ones character is determined by what one would do if one knew one would not get caught. Therefore, what one does is an indication of their character. This is what Jacov (James) is trying to tell us in his letter.
Yes, we are divided on character. You can call them “meaningless methods and procedures, and matters of theology that Paul says have no consequence” if you want, but that does not mean what we are discussing does not benefit our fellowman, just because you say so. As I stated above, the Col. 2 passages appears to be talking about judging ones relationship with Adonai and not how ones actions effect oneself and others.
quote:
It's obvious you are saying the rememberance doesn't have to be performed in the same manner as the original. I'm okay with that. We have no argument here. Hopefully you'll point this out to the person who believes the old covenant is still in force and attacks how the church keeps Christ's Passover (aka communion). And, hopefully the difference in opinions on this matter is helping you to understand Paul's exhortation in Romans 14.
I did not say it was proper to keep Pesach in any way one wishes. If this were true it would not be Pesach at all but something else. What I am saying is the commandments regarding the keeping of Pesach do not require us to keep it exactly as it was done in Egypt. Again if you wish to discuss the proper keeping of Pesach, I would be happy to have that discussion. However, that is probably best done on a different thread. Romans chpt.14 is talking about condemning one another. As I stated before, we are not to make judgments regarding ones relationship with Adonai. But, making judgments about a particular person and stating ones opinion in general are two different things.
quote:
The problem is your hypocrisy in judging. Normally our opinions should apply to ourselves as well. Don't miss the point of what I'm saying: If you are keeping the Passover rememberance the way you have decided to keep it because you think the way to do it is not made clear in scripture, don't take that same liberty away from anyone else. You're being hypocritical if you say you keep it the way you think you should because it's not made clear in scripture and then turn right around and not let the Christian Church keep it the way they think they should.
(Remember I'm critiquing your argument, not mine. You say the law of Passover is still binding. I'm saying if that's true, then why don't you do it like the law commands. Which you have explained. I don't need to answer that argument because I don't believe we have any obligation to a literal OT Passover Feast. Just so we're clear here).
Discussing with someone how something should be done is not judging them. If two carpenters have the same set of blueprints and disagree on how they should be read, they are not judging one another. They are just trying to determine what the architect had in mind. Now, if one of the carpenters can point to specific instructions on how something should be built, he is not being hypocritical when he points this out to a coworker. However, advice from someone who doesn’t want the building to be built at all is useless at best. Let’s try to stick to the point.
quote:
Literal Torah camp is very, very guilty of creatively interpreting the scriptures to insure their argument that literal Torah is still binding. I just use the plain wording of the scriptures to defend my position. Yours and others argument depend on so much more outside of the scriptures for support. And on accepting the less than obvious conclusion of the texts in question. That's why I reject it so whole heartedly.
These posts are long enough without this repeated insistence that “I just use the plain wording of the scriptures” and others “depend on so much more outside of the scriptures”. Everybody believes they have the most biblical argument. Let’s try to stick to the point.
quote:
Unless you throw some funny twist into this I think we are in agreement. OT people with a special relationship to God serve as examples for us how all people can be brought near to God through the anointing. An anointing that is now available to all under the New Covenant.
And, it was available to all under the “old covenant”. In fact, Isaiah tells us it is a part of The Covenant.
Isa 59:21 "As for me, this is my covenant with them," says the Lord. "My Spirit, who is on you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouths of your children, or from the mouths of their descendants from this time on and forever," says the Lord.
quote:
I was thinking of my own situation of growing up with 'christian' parents and thinking I'm in good with God because of that fact. I would say the same thing to both camps. Don't trust in your natural lineage or heritage. They only served as illustrations in the OT to help us understand how we as children of God inherit the kingdom of God because we've been born into that kingdom by virtue of the spirit. Just another example how the literal gets superceded altogether by the spiritual reality. The thing that literalists are so adamant against and go to great lengths to prove should not happen, ignoring all the glaring examples where that did happen.
So, if your understanding of how Jews should view their parents holds for “both camps”, are you saying ones parents only served as illustrations, one needs only honor ones “spiritual” parents and one need not honor ones “literal” parents?
quote:
quote:
Therefore, we were, are and always will be saved by grace through faith, and following Adonai's commandments were, are and always will be an illustration for our spiritual understanding.
I can't safely say that because by law if you were not circumcised in the flesh you were cut off.
Ge 17:14 “Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."
Yes, he has broken Adonai’s covenant, as has one who murders or mistreats his livestock. If one is not saved when one continues to sin is widely debated on another thread. That said this verse is speaking to the social remedy for such behavior, which appears to be their not being considered part of the community.
quote:
By the nature of what it means to be under the authority of written law, it meant what it said. I don't think you could waltz around during the reign of the old covenant in a genuine relationship with God and not do what the law commanded in regard to worship and then expect that relationship to continue. There is no New Covenant revelation at this time to relieve everyone of the requirements of the law (though we catch glimpses of it in the life of David, for instance). To relieve yourself of those requirements during this time would amount to nothing short of rebellion.
Do you understand the significance of what I'm saying? Just because God would one day release us all from the authority of the law did not mean you could walk away from the law before God revealed that to us. Which is not the case at all with us. We do now know God has released us from some OT laws.
This is something worthy of consideration. What is meant by “cut off”? This is very close to the issue above, which I suggest is best handled in another thread. However, in general, this term is also used as a social remedy for (Lev 20:3) sacrificing ones children to Molech, (Le 20:6) Spirit Mediums and (Le 20:17) Incest, none of which Paul mentions. (Num 15:30) Sinning defiantly is alluded to by Paul, but it is so general out of context that a long discussion would be necessary. As you may have noticed, I am not adverse to long discussion. However, such side discussions tend to get us off track regarding the discussion of what we are to use as a standard for living. That said, whatever ones definition of cut off must also include these cases. Should one ignore this kind of behavior simply because it is not repeated by Paul?
quote:
Thank God we're not under that authority anymore …
Repeated sermonizing on ones assertions adds nothing to ones case. They only use up space.
quote:
Now answer my question. Why was circumcision required by law then, but is not required now? The OT scriptures plainly say you must be circumcised to inherit the promises. Do you really think one could have a genuine relationship with God at this period of revelation and then turn right around and not be circumcised, having no revelation of the NT to allow that? Their old covenant scriptures teach literal circumcision alongside circumcision of the heart. Where would an old covenant person find the audacity to rebel against the command to be circumcised (in the absence of NT revelatiion) and then expect to be ushered into paradise upon his death?
Paul plainly says to us that you do not have to be circumcised to inherit the promises. You're suggesting that if the law was required after Abraham's salvation by faith then it is also required for us after being saved (declared righteous) by faith. If this is true, why does Paul plainly say literal circumcision is not required anymore? Obviously we have new revelation from God (through Paul) that has released us from that law. This authorized precedant in scripture helps us understand our release from other laws of external worship of the OT.
I’m sorry to have to take up so much space by repeatedly quoting your entire entry, but it is difficult to extract the direct response from the repeated assertions interspersed throughout. So, let me respond in hopes that you can identify those statements to which I refer.
It appears we have made progress here, since you now say the Tanach teaches circumcision of the heart. However, you still presume that salvation by grace was not revealed until the Apostolic Scriptures. Requiring circumcision for salvation is salvation by works regardless of when the person lives. So, this is my answer to you question. If circumcision was necessary for Avraham’s salvation, then Romans 4:11 makes not sense whatsoever, since “he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.
The next section is just repetition of previous assertions so I will just make quick references.
quote:
This is the famous Paul vs. James argument. Obedience is how we justify ourselves, showing ourselves to have been made righteous. Obedience is not how we become righteous, but righteousness is proved by our actions
No our actions prove nothing. They are thank offerings in gratitude. Yacov (James) says they are indications of ones character and faith.
quote:
As New Testament believers, we have a similar but clearly different obligation as to how we are to show ourselves as having been made righteous. And that new way is in accordance with the level of revelation that we now have that the Patriarchs did not have then.
The only difference proven so far in this conversation is perspective. Though an object may look different from different angles, it is not the object that has changed.
quote:
For example, we now know literal circumcision is not necessary to prove you believe God. New Testament revelation teaches us that is an inferior and potentially deceitful way of measuring, or proving one's right standing with God.
It always has been this way.
quote:
It was illustrative of a better measure, but still required nevertheless for those under the old covenant. The unveiled message of the NT is we show ourselves to have been made righteous by walking in the fruit of the Spirit, particularly love. 'Do people pick figs from a thorn bush?'
Any requirement for salvation is salvation by works and not by grace through faith. Heb. 11 tells us that those chronicled in the Tanach were saved by grace through faith and not works.
quote:
Under the old covenant, righteousness was seen in the observance of stringent codes of outward worship. And as the old testament itself testifies (Jeremiah 7 especially) that was a very deceitful measure of one's right standing with God. It was true then, it is true today. The true measure of righteousness was not easily seen in the law, though the prophets spoke of it. Only with Christ and the revelation He and the apostles brought do we see clearly what really matters, often to the exclusion altogeher of what doesn't matter. That's why it's so important to come out of the old covenant and into the new. It's the only way to truly please God.
Yes, many still do not understand the true nature of The Covenant even with the recorded history of Yeshua (Jesus) and Paul’s attempt to explain it. It has not been proven that the essence and nature of the Messiah, was not understood by those whose lives are recorded in the Tanach (old testament). In fact you have acknowledged that some did, but you presume that only those recorded did. This is speculation.
quote:
I'd rather not get into a predestination discussion. I personally find it mostly fruitless and meaningless because it really doesn't change how we live today. It's just one of those curious theological discussions to me. It might be an underpinning that helps someone develop their overall theology, but doesn't directly affect what you do today.
I will tell you, I think predestination simply means you are predestined to perish if you don't believe, and you are predestined to live and thrive as a son of God if you do believe. And obviously God has known exactly who would believe and who wouldn't since before creation. He doesn't seem to let that get in the way too much with how he deals with us. Perhaps I'm wrong, but for me it won't change the way I live and relate to either God or the world since that information is privy to Him alone. Anyway, I'd rather not pursue this. The question of law keeping directly affects how we live today. Predestination does not.
I just showed verses the show that those who were saved in the time before the incarnation of Yeshua were saved and sanctified by Adonai’s grace as we are. Yet, you refuse to accept those verses you consider them “fruitless and meaningless” and these are from the Apostolic Writings. First, you say the Tanach is only useful as illustrative of our need for Yeshua and now you say those parts of the Apostolic Writings that talk of predestination are “fruitless and meaningless”. Now I must ask not only how do we know what are and are not rules for proper living, but also how do we know what is fruitful and meaningful Scripture?
quote:
But the promblem is too many people think this automatically equates for us today to keeping the old covenant laws of worship.
I think the problem is too much generalization, vain repetition, and not enough clarification.
quote:
There's just so much other information in the New Testament that shows us this just isn't true.
This is a conclusion, not an argument. Conclusions must be accompanied with justification.
quote:
For the Messianic everything gets translated as 'law', instead of 'Jesus'.
I am not talking about Messianics here, but I doubt “everything” is translated “law” and do you really believe “everything” translate J-E-S-U-S.
quote:
And the focus is on worship techniques, not daily living.
I have been talking about the relationship of salvation and Halachah (biblical lifestyle). I do not recall having made comments regarding any current person or group.
quote:
Even 'Jesus' is automatically and instantly translated as 'law' in the mind of most Messianics. The NT shows us the inferiority of the law compared to the Spirit (even 'Spirit' gets instantly translated as 'law' in the mind of most Messianics), yet the focus always gets placed on external worship laws instead of on how we are to treat people like Jesus treated people.
Refer to above comments regarding generalization and repetition.
quote:
Just because we are indeed required to uphold old covenant laws of justice and mercy today doesn't mean we are automatically bound to every other law of the old covenant. That is such a narrow and simplistic argument that ignores so much that has been made plain to us today in the revelation of the new covenant. That is such a narrow and simplistic argument that ignores so much that has been made plain to us today in the revelation of the new covenant. And defies the evidence to the contrary that exists all around us (and I'm not talking about what the Catholics have done).
That is not my argument. I have always argued that all things are to be tested by the Scriptures, even the Scriptures themselves. That is what Paul encourages us to do. I have even been willing to begin with nothing but “the two great commandments” as has been proposed and test all things in relation to those. Even that seems unacceptable to you.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 7/16/2008 7:47:03 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2008 12:04:24 PM
|
|
|
Lapidoth
Posts: 3614
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
But you make statements of which you truly don't know
what you are saying. Unless you have taken the time to
"be" on the "other side" you don't know the thought process.
Yes I have been on the other side. And I was always condeming myself thinking even after confessing the sin I commited and still feel that for some reason God didn't accept my forgiveness.
I have a father-in-law who is hung up on that same thinking and has come out and condem me for not having his thought pattern too. Wonders today why we don't communicate very well. Gee could it be you come up with verses, you say are in the bible and could not be found. Made rules for certian members of his family. Which was in his mind was scriptual, yet excused others to do crime without punishment.
Told me that I should do tough love to my Daughter like he did to his, who is my wife. Which one day told her to get into the car drove down the street. Then told her to get out of the car and don't come back. Which left her without a place to put her head down. Because it is scriptual he stated. Which I replied please find that for me.
I 'm sorry but my Dad was very knowledgeable in the books of bible did not raise me to be stupid in what the main focus was in the stories were told. I worked side by side with my dad whom we would have disscusion on what the words really mean.
So from a person who married into a family. Which is quit screwed up as far as being spiritual. But they know it all. It's to bad but building more storage barns and cheating you labors don't quite make it.
I heard a speaker last Sunday who was from the UCC. Which first thing that entered my mind was they accept homos in high places in their congregation. But low and behold he spoke the truth on why Israel landed in Babylon. Because their sins and good old U.S.A is not far behind them. He was using the whole book of Isaiah for his text.
Thanks for sharing.
I think many of us have bad backgrounds that influence our thinking
or "turn us off" to many things. It's taken me years to get rid of a lot
of the background as you speak of. Thank God for His grace to allow
us to grow even if those teaching us don't.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2008 12:22:20 PM
|
|
|
Lapidoth
Posts: 3614
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I believe it's very important that we learn about the books of Moses. However, the Bible says we aren't under its constraints anymore, and the learning of the books of Moses teaches us why we need Jesus and how things got to where they are.
In the same vain, I can say, "It's important we learn about the Constitution, however
the Congress says we aren't under its constraints anymore."
Like I said, it's views derived by the "thought process."
Greetings,
Hey Lap...could you do us service and post up what you have gathered (if you have studied it ..that is) can you offer what and explain what the Talitha is…in v41 And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha
So I explain to MC what the prophecy in Mark 5-Luke 8 is
LG
Sorry Lap, I meant the tallit (tälçt`), in Judaism, four-cornered, fringed shawl
LG
My memory is a bit foggy this morning and I don't have access to my notes here at work.
If I recall correctly, it was "Talitha cumi" Aramic for damsel; but also I think my notes
refer a rendition of "daughter of the law." It's my understanding that the fringed garment
would be wrapped about the body of the deceased. The "napkin" as KJ refers to it that Jesus
left behind would have been the four-cornered garment.
That's probably not what you were looking for, so maybe if you were more specific I could
elaborate a bit more and know what I'd be searching for in my notes.
thanks
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2008 12:31:12 PM
|
|
|
Lapidoth
Posts: 3614
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
|
I just received a pretty good article on Galatians 3:24-25 [tutor of the law].
I'm not really posting this as an argument or for arguing, but just
for those who are interested in "perspectives."
paidogogos
< Message edited by Lapidoth -- 7/18/2008 1:06:48 PM >
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2008 1:42:42 PM
|
|
|
LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2458
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
I believe it's very important that we learn about the books of Moses. However, the Bible says we aren't under its constraints anymore, and the learning of the books of Moses teaches us why we need Jesus and how things got to where they are.
In the same vain, I can say, "It's important we learn about the Constitution, however
the Congress says we aren't under its constraints anymore."
Like I said, it's views derived by the "thought process."
Greetings,
Hey Lap...could you do us service and post up what you have gathered (if you have studied it ..that is) can you offer what and explain what the Talitha is…in v41 And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha
So I explain to MC what the prophecy in Mark 5-Luke 8 is
LG
Sorry Lap, I meant the tallit (tälçt`), in Judaism, four-cornered, fringed shawl
LG
My memory is a bit foggy this morning and I don't have access to my notes here at work.
If I recall correctly, it was "Talitha cumi" Aramic for damsel; but also I think my notes
refer a rendition of "daughter of the law." It's my understanding that the fringed garment
would be wrapped about the body of the deceased. The "napkin" as KJ refers to it that Jesus
left behind would have been the four-cornered garment.
That's probably not what you were looking for, so maybe if you were more specific I could
elaborate a bit more and know what I'd be searching for in my notes.
thanks
Hey Lap...
maybe if you were more specific I could
elaborate a bit more and know what I'd be searching for in my notes.
There isn’t any rush! ….you know how it works….sometimes the Lord sends out some bait, but generally requires some type of sacrifice before He gives us the rest….know what I mean!!!
The Lord has just opened up that section in Mark 5 and Luke..and man... it is amazing what is in there.
I found things thus far that that suggest to word could have been on the internet that it means "little tent," or that talitha and is the feminine form of Aramaic talya, "lamb, youth."
SO far no masculine references in the OT other than David’s keeping of the Ark in a tent, so I guess it is a NT prophecy…
Either way it tends to be leaning towards a type of covering because the Tallit also refers to a wing ….or the shadow of my wings, then Plural….
Which would tend to lean more to the commandments being as a covering.
Further, the linguistic relationship between the tallit and the talitha in talitha cumi and the similarity of
the appearance... is it just accidental?
I can’t find too much info….as of yet,
But the other part is when Jesus said that the work must be done while it is still day,
Because night is coming when no one can work, and by Jesus saying that she was just sleeping… and that He would wake her up…. seems kind of connected…
Now…. I found the tallit is generally worn by a man for the Morning Prayer, which if ture could be suggesting that the night Jesus mentioned was now over….
But then again it also raised a question did He visit the little girl in the morning because the Tallit is also known to worn all day long?…
So at this time I can’t tell at this point whether or not the little girl is a prophetic picture of the Church becoming of age (some 2000 years! LOL)…. or the Jews.
SO at this point any info you do have on the tallit or the symbolism in the fringe ....perhaps would point me in the right direction... and would be gladly gleaned from… (Because I have not studied those things in depth...)
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2008 2:03:42 PM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 2409
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
i have been talking about the relationship of salvation and Halachah (biblical lifestyle).
 You think it’s proper to use the word Halakhah to mean biblical Laws for godly living?
Not by any stretch of imagination, darling.
Halakha basically always meant, in reality, biblical laws as seen by rabbinazis , Talmudists and other selfproclaimed pseudoprophets. I can write a whole opus about how abused biblical laws were to produce modern Halakha, and give you some lovely examples, but lets keep it on track.
There is minimal, if any true God laws left in it.
Maybe the word could've been making a bit more sense if we lived way back then closer to Moses times, but using it now, esp in the context of this thread, were we specifically trying to make a distinction b/n Laws and Rabbinical add-ons..
To me personally using it sounds as if someone were to referr to all female student body of Ill State University as virgins. " Attention boys and virgins: The lecture on Quantum Mechanics is cancelled, Prof. V. is ill "
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2008 2:44:52 PM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 2409
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
You can use it all you want I am just explaining to you what it means.
Reread my post carefully, it seems you missed the point.
BT, again:
Halacha includes more then biblical laws, but also Oral law as in rabbinical, talmudis and such interpretational as well as sheer humanly invented additions. There is an important distinction between the Bible and Additions to the Bible, as in extra curriculum rabbinical laws.
Therefore when you use the term you make an impression that you equate Biblical Law with
those. I warned you against it.
If you want to refer to Biblical laws minus rabbinical BS, do not use term Halakha, which includes both. For someone who studies Torah and has at least basic knowledge of Judaism, it is inexcusable not to know the difference.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2008 3:55:21 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1543
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
What term would you suggest I use with Spongeblog that would not arrouse all kinds of conotations from him and at the same time not give the wrong impression to any rabbi who might be reading along.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2008 4:34:26 PM
|
|
|
drussell52
Posts: 208
Joined: 4/24/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
|
Bluethread, your comments are well-taken, well-stated, and well worth considering, especially regarding teaching and preaching about character. In lieu of that, if one looks for consistencies in both testaments, on any number of themes, you have the materials for constructing with God's help a full and holy life. Reading about offerings in Numbers chapters 27 and 28 is something we don't do today obviously but our lives are an offering and is the aroma pleasant to God and those around us? I don't really belong in this thread as my temprament is best suited elsewhere, but primarily wanted to say a big thank you!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - | | | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
