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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 3:06:01 PM
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bob97
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quote:
Gods word was as not hidden from them in the OT as many here seek to impart
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. (2Co 3:7-15)KJV
The old way, with laws etched in stone, led to death, though it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses' face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away. Shouldn't we expect far greater glory under the new way, now that the Holy Spirit is giving life? If the old way, which brings condemnation, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new way, which makes us right with God! In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new way. So if the old way, which has been replaced, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever! Since this new way gives us such confidence, we can be very bold. We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory, even though it was destined to fade away. But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. Yes, even today when they read Moses' writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand. (2Co 3:7 -15)NLT
LG…what am I missing here? I must be confused so please explain what Paul is telling us here? 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 3:06:48 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
concensus in Judaism,
That's an oximoron  There is no such animal as consensus in Judaism.
Sorry, i disagree with your logic on defining Torah, etc. and last time i saw this argument which after multiple wording led to the whole
" Torah is The Word, Jesus is Word, so Jesus is the Torah" idea was in the writings of the Hebrew Roots Movement bunch.
That is not sounds logical to me, for it looks like "BlueT is a man, Sponge is a man, so BLueT is actually Sponge"
Then they did the same trick with law and grace, equating both, and later, emplying little stretch Torah =Jesus =Light.
We are not headed anywhere near that direction, may i please ask to be assured?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 4:04:54 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Bluethread said:quote:
Now, whether one believes John wrote the original account in greek or not, it appears that He meant to communicate the concept that is more accurately connoted in the term Ha Torah, as defined above. This is the concept we have just agreed is the accurate representation of Adonai. That is a personal infinite deity. Can we agree that this is what John wishes to convey when he uses the term The Word?
I don't think so. The Greek equivalent of Torah is not Logos. The Greek equivalent of Torah is Nomos, Strong's 3551.
From Zodhiates Hebrew Greek Key Study Bible, Lexical Aids to the New Testament, page 1858 gives this definition as one of the meanings of Nomos: "...(2) Most frequently, the divine law given by Moes, whether moral; ceremonial, or judicial..."
While it is true that Logos can refer to the Torah specifically, it's application is much broader than that as in the term Word of God, i.e. Logos of God. I'm saying that Logos does not function as a proper Greek translation of Torah, but it can function as a synonym.
You are missing my point. We do not have the originals of the Scriptures. We presume that John used the word Logos. Even if he did use the word Logos, I do not think he meant to convey the idea that Adonai is impersonal, as the common greek use of the word implies. The term Torah was more tied to the character of Adonai in the common hebrew usage of the time. Therefore, I am saying, what John wished to convey was an idea more closely aligned with the term Torah, than the term Logos. This is why I brought this up, so we could hopefully keep these lingistic issues from diverting us from the issue at hand.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 5:14:51 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
concensus in Judaism,
That's an oximoron There is no such animal as consensus in Judaism.
Sorry, i disagree with your logic on defining Torah, etc. and last time i saw this argument which after multiple wording led to the whole
" Torah is The Word, Jesus is Word, so Jesus is the Torah" idea was in the writings of the Hebrew Roots Movement bunch.
That is not sounds logical to me, for it looks like "BlueT is a man, Sponge is a man, so BLueT is actually Sponge"
Then they did the same trick with law and grace, equating both, and later, emplying little stretch Torah =Jesus =Light.
We are not headed anywhere near that direction, may i please ask to be assured?
Can you name for me a sect in Judaism that does not recognize the first five books of the present canon as Scripture?
Also, I have not made that point you fear yet. There are linguistic differences between english and hebrew that make your analogy invalid. Rather than argue against arguments that have been made by others, please, respond to the points I am making.
It is my understanding that the written Torah has been generally viewed as a representation of Adonai and Ha Torah of Adonai is the greater reality that the written Torah represents. This is what I believe Paul is refering to when he says, (1 Cor 13:12) "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face." The written Torah is a poor reflection and Ha Torah is exemplified by Yeshua to those with whom He had/has direct contact face to face. Of course, not all of Judaism agrees with this concept, just as not all those who call themselves Christians agree on this concept either.
My time is limited and I have an agreement with Spongeblog, so I hope you will understand if I do not respond to all side comments.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 9:15:06 PM
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GrahamCracker
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From Bluethread
quote:
You are missing my point. We do not have the originals of the Scriptures. We presume that John used the word Logos.
What's the whole point of arguing that Logos means Torah if you doubt John originally wrote in Greek?
For all intents and purposes we do know the original words in the original NT language. We might miss a stray word here and there, but pretty much most of it is well known. It was undoubtedly Greek. We have no reason to suggest otherwise. We do not "presume that John used the word Logos." We know he did. If you think otherwise, it is only your unqualified opinion. And it is because you will not be persuaded by the evidence.
quote:
Even if he did use the word Logos, I do not think he meant to convey the idea that Adonai is impersonal, as the common greek use of the word implies.
No one said he did.
quote:
This is why I brought this up, so we could hopefully keep these lingistic issues from diverting us from the issue at hand.
Please don't take this personally. But you guys are a trip! Somehow, when you think you have linguistics on your side, you try to sway the conversation to your view. But when the linguistics fail to bear the burden of your position, they suddenly don't matter!
This verse could mean this or could mean that. Or a "better translation of a word is such and such." If you don't want linguistic arguments from diverting what you think is the most important issue, then don't bring them up.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 11:20:29 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
Can you name for me a sect in Judaism that does not recognize the first five books of the present canon as Scripture?
sure, they do -In a same sense that all Christian churches recognize the Bible. The devil, as we know, is in the details, namely the whole judaistic concept of rabbinical extras being a part of a doctrine.
quote:
There are linguistic differences between english and hebrew that make your analogy invalid.
you mean HRM-ese version of ivrit:). If we try using Shebrew as a hermeneutics method of choice – then it can be easily proven that a man’s mother in Law = Torah, let alone Jesus = Torah
I wasn’t addressing the linguistics, for you just made the comment to GCracker not to use them to advance one’s point!, but rather the idea that Hebrew Roots Movement it’s various flavors are trying to pedal.
I mean, before when accusing someone of being opinionated and bossy I should frist look in the mirror, but they got the nerve. Do they really believe that NOBODY else knows proper Hebrew but them? almost 2 K years of Christianity got it all wrong; and Hebrew speaking Christians got it wrong ;but they came, to open minds and enlighten. Sorry that strongly resembles a cult to me.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 11:22:40 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
Rather than argue against arguments that have been made by others, please, respond to the points I am making.
I apologize but so far all your arguments fit theirs to the t. Last person I talked to that essented your argumentation went as far as saying hmm.. very unacceptable things about the Trinity.
quote:
The written Torah is a poor reflection and Ha Torah is exemplified by Yeshua to those with whom He had/has direct contact face to face.
That leads to including interpretational techniques, namely occult and kabalistic teaching into the Bible hermeneutics as the abovementioned group have done.
quote:
My time is limited and I have an agreement with Spongeblog, so I hope you will understand if I do not respond to all side comments.
Totally understood, brother BlueT. I will not bother you on this one, gentlemen. I will be reading and i gladly give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not HRM and not even Avi ben Mordechai's cute variation of it.
I apologize profusely if i misunderstood you view.
edit to remove the joke - on a second thought it might not be understood..
< Message edited by Odeliya -- 7/23/2008 11:38:57 PM >
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 3:47:25 AM
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Bluethread
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I am not looking to cause a fight over these terms. In fact, I believe I said, "I am not asking you to assent to any of the other connotations that may be attached to the term Ha Torah at this time. I am just making sure that, when we use the term Ha Torah or The Word, we are refering to the perfect representation of Adonai's character. To that end, I propose we add the word "written" or "revealed" in this discussion, when we wish to use these terms to refer to that part of Adonai's character that we may quote. Do you have any problems with these definitons/connotations and this verbage?"
Though I do not personally know of anyone who has seen the original manuscripts, I am willing to bow to your proclaimed expertice on these issues for now. I am only pointing out that the term Logos carries the connotation of an impersonal controlling force and that seems to be antithetic to what John is talking about with regard to Adonai. So, if you will permit I will ask Spongeblog whether if in using the term "The Word" we might ignore that common greek connotation. Of course that would be easier if we were to use a term that originally refered to a personal creator, but I can wait until that becomes clear in our discussion.
Also, both Ha Logos and Ha Torah point to something much higher than the written word. That was my main point. So, I seek the courts indulgence as I again ask Spongeblog if it is permissable for us to use "The Word" to refer to that higher meaning and "the written word" when refering to that which we quote.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 9:33:09 AM
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GrahamCracker
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Bluethread:
quote:
To that end, I propose we add the word "written" or "revealed" in this discussion, when we wish to use these terms to refer to that part of Adonai's character that we may quote.
I thought it was a given.
quote:
Do you have any problems with these definitons/connotations and this verbage?"
No. (Except the idea that Logos inherently inferred impersonableness to the Greeks. I don't think it necessarily did. Perhaps more research is needed.)
quote:
Though I do not personally know of anyone who has seen the original manuscripts, I am willing to bow to your proclaimed expertice on these issues for now.
Let me address a couple of terms for clarification. "Extant manuscripts" would refer to those manuscripts penned by or dictated by the apostles or disciples themselves. Original manuscripts can be unclear because it does not specify whether or not it was extant or a copy. I prefer the term "original languages" because it avoids the obligation of saying whether or not it was a copy and excludes the possibility that something was a translation.
We have no extant manuscripts. We accept without hesitation that the extant manuscripts no longer exist. We do not have 100% certainty regarding some words or even the original written spelling. We do know the original NT was written in Greek and that the original language of the OT was Hebrew with some portions (of the OT) in Aramaic.
quote:
I am only pointing out that the term Logos carries the connotation of an impersonal controlling force and that seems to be antithetic to what John is talking about with regard to Adonai.
You know something? I looked up Logos on Wikipedia and I didn't see even one use of the term "impersonal" in the entire article. I don't know what your source is but I'll have to take issue with the idea that there is any inherent connotation of impersonalness in using the Greek term. It is quite possible that a sect of Greek philosophers might have, namely the Stoics. But the article doesn't mention that.
Most Christians do not assume that the inherent meaning of "Logos" implies it to be impersonable. I even checked my English Random House Collegiate Dictionary. There is the use of the term Logos as used in Christian theology and another definition of the term in Greek philosophy.
I think you are assuming a minimalist number of definitions of words. Words often have several meanings that are used quite differently from one another. There really is nothing to worry about here.
quote:
So, if you will permit I will ask Spongeblog whether if in using the term "The Word" we might ignore that common greek connotation.
Sure. But let me add that the "common [Greek] connotation" is either little known to the average Christian or possibly nonexistent even in Greek.
Question: Do you ever research anything? If you do, it would good to reference your sources. I am running across factual errors.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 7/24/2008 9:58:15 AM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 9:46:18 AM
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bob97
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A little help please. I find the terms Ha Logos and Ha Torah a little difficult to define, as well if find no definition on the web.
Please explain what these terms mean and why they are something higher than the word of God as we know it in the written word.
Is this suppose to be something given by the Spirit of God independent of the written word?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 10:02:55 AM
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Odeliya
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quote:
Though I do not personally know of anyone who has seen the original manuscripts, I am willing to bow to your proclaimed expertice on these issues for now.
Oh, dear friend, if I was an expert why would I ( or GC , if i was directed at him) be hanging out here with you, br. BT? We would be keeping company of highly knowledgeable experts . No, just a humble student wanting to learn from you and others here who clearly know more then I.
My expertise is limited to ability to see and point out something that quacks like a cult(HRM).
How to define Torah in your discussion is up to our respected, succinct and precious fellow debaters BT and Sponge. But my opinion : the list of rules that your son knows as Dad’s Laws are not Dad himself, and they aren’t even reveal your character in full. You might be a kindest and loving person, but rules might be strict and if needed, brutal. So Torah only partially reveals the Nature of God.
There is more to the Law then Pentateuch, and there is more to the God's nature then revealed in the Law. I appreciate the emphasis on importance of OT from LT camp, but we in return have to demand the same about NT.
quote:
I am only pointing out that the term Logos carries the connotation of an impersonal controlling force and that seems to be antithetic to what John is talking about with regard to Adonai.
It is not impersonal, as GC said, it means God but what we here are contesting is the final idea all this argumentation leads to, namely Torah=Jesus
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 10:42:36 AM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
...But my opinion : the list of rules that your son knows as Dad’s Laws are not Dad himself, and they aren’t even reveal your character in full. You might be a kindest and loving person, but rules might be strict and if needed, brutal. So Torah only partially reveals the Nature of God.
There is more to the Law then Pentateuch, and there is more to the God's nature then revealed in the Law.
Wow! After a little contemplation, I came into the forum just now to say this exactly. Even though we may learn a little something about a person, and even his character from what he has written or spoken from afar (meaning not face to face), it in no way can, or must qualify as a complete revelation of that person. Only in the face of Jesus Christ, who spoke the very Words "Let there be...", do we see the exact representation of God. Everything before that was not a perfect representation of Who God is (not even close). We only have the final 'Word' of Who God is in the coming of Christ. And it is that 'Word' that completely unveils the character and essence of Who our Mighty Creator is, forever praised and worthy of honor, Amen and Amen. (I didn't throw that in for nothing. I'm actually moved in my Sprit by meditating on what it means for Christ to be the Word of God. I hope others are to.)
I want to add, I did not know Logos carried the connotation of being impersonal. I was taught it refered to the written Word of God. Right or wrong, that's the understanding I carry of what it means.
For the sake of the continuance of our discussion, Bthread, I will accept that we learn something about God through the Words He has spoken, beginning at creation. But I cannot agree that we learn all about God from the Words He has spoken and are recorded for us in the account of creation and in Torah alone. For me, as John explains, they are not the final and perfect Word that unveils Who He truly is.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 11:08:59 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
McLeod:
Just as I wrote last week we can become very arrogant that we are keepers of the law. Which is not what God is looking for. But People who cry out "Jesus, Son of David have mercy on me".
I want to comment on this. It is indeed a problem , I guess with human nature. Once we try to please God thru obeying the Law we often fall into a huge pitfall of legalism, it’s just the way people's sick human nature works.
we once had to take a friend that was suppose to leave the country next day on sightseeing ride, even I always knew you don’t go thru religious neighborhood on Sabbath, never! But we did, and when going from Galilee thru Arab part of Jerusalem- No reaction, just kids were yelling something maybe... At the exit, the border patrol soldiers did look at us weird (my br. has little Israeli flag stiker on the back window) Going thru Jewish orthodox parts , the story was radically different- stones, broken glass on the road, it was obvious they were throwing them all day. Speeding thru and sucessfully getting out – I look ar Shmueli (my brother),and he was so quiet. Arabs were not a problem, but Jews throw stones at their own brothers. Dad said that never, ever do that again.
Strict observers can’t turn on lights,cant cook food, so the sit outside and let their kids spit and throw stones at “infidels” that don’t observe the Sabbath.This is how they show their vengeance to those who is not strict and thus fully devote their day to God.
Of course, I am not generalizing, only some are like that. I am trying to convey the point – people are so easily self -deceived.
You cant cook- but you can buy stoves that turn themselves on automatically on sab.You cant work – but you can hire Arabs to do work. While doing all that, including throwing stones - they are convinced they Please Adonai. Trust me on this. Idiots.
You are so right on that thought. That is why Isaiah spoke fromin ch. 58 about we can have a bad attitude to others. Because of our pious (I don't mean that in a good way)condition we have put others who are not like us into a lower class then us. We think we have it all the answers to life. But we will see when we have to answer for our own mistakes we did here on earth. As God states in passage" you seem to think you do right". Not very humble attitude.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 11:20:05 AM
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bob97
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quote:
(I didn't throw that in for nothing. I'm actually moved in my Sprit by meditating on what it means for Christ to be the Word of God. I hope others are to.)
Amen Sponge...we see the actual face of God through Christ, who is the expressed image of the invisible God. How much closer can we get?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 12:21:00 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
A little help please. I find the terms Ha Logos and Ha Torah a little difficult to define, as well if find no definition on the web.
Please explain what these terms mean and why they are something higher than the word of God as we know it in the written word.
Is this suppose to be something given by the Spirit of God independent of the written word?
Bob
jOHN 1:1 In the beginning was The Word(Ha Logos) and The Word(Ha Logos) was with God and The Word(Ha Logos) was God.
This does not refer to the limited revelation of the Scriptural manuscripts, but the fullness of Adonai.
In the same way Ha Torah is a term that at least some rabbis have considered to be not just the Scriptural manuscripts of the first five books of the canon, but the fullness of Adonai.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 1:18:42 PM
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bob97
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Bluethread...Thanks!
Ok...Ha Logos...The fullness of God or Divine Expression of God. Does any man encompass this revelation?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 1:40:01 PM
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Lapidoth
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I think we can assume we all know Him.
He said, If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father.
When others see Jesus "in" us, then they see that
divine expression. Otherwise, they just see "us." lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 1:56:32 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
jOHN 1:1 In the beginning was The Word(Ha Logos) and The Word(Ha Logos) was with God and The Word(Ha Logos) was God.
This does not refer to the limited revelation of the Scriptural manuscripts, but the fullness of Adonai.
I can agree with this. The fullness being Jesus Himself.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
In the same way Ha Torah is a term that at least some rabbis have considered to be not just the Scriptural manuscripts of the first five books of the canon, but the fullness of Adonai.
I have to draw the line here. I do not agree in any way shape or form that the first five books of the OT (Torah) represents the fullness of God. Nor do I believe that the illumination of the Holy Spirit is what unveils Torah as the representation of God's completeness and perfection. I don't want to halt our discussion, but I simply cannot agree with this.
The appearing of Christ is the additional and final Word that makes the completeness and perfection of God known to mankind above and beyond Torah. IOW, Christ is not just the unveiling of Torah. He is the unveiling of truth above and beyond Torah.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 2:08:46 PM
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bob97
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quote:
I think we can assume we all know Him.
I agree Carl...but we only know what He has disclosed to us and I suspect that there is a lot left unsaid.
But my point is we can only know what the word of God given to us in the bible allows us to understand, being guided by the Holy Spirit. If anyone starts telling me that they have a special connection to God which allows them to know more than what has been disclosed I have to question that. Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about anyone on this thread...I'm talking in general.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 2:17:59 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3307
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
If anyone starts telling me that they have a special connection to God which allows them to know more than what has been disclosed I have to question that.
I'm with you on that.
If they make those claims I run from them as
though they dowsed me in gasoline and lit a match. lol.
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Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 3:33:25 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1960
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
In the same way Ha Torah is a term that at least some rabbis have considered to be not just the Scriptural manuscripts of the first five books of the canon, but the fullness of Adonai.
I have to draw the line here. I do not agree in any way shape or form that the first five books of the OT (Torah) represents the fullness of God. Nor do I believe that the illumination of the Holy Spirit is what unveils Torah as the representation of God's completeness and perfection. I don't want to halt our discussion, but I simply cannot agree with this.
The appearing of Christ is the additional and final Word that makes the completeness and perfection of God known to mankind above and beyond Torah. IOW, Christ is not just the unveiling of Torah. He is the unveiling of truth above and beyond Torah.
While I would have worded it differently, I think my fundamental view would be in agreement with SpongeBlog.
"v 20 For no one is declared righteous before him by the works of the law; for through the law comes the knowledge of sin. v 21But now [in the New Covenant] apart from the Law the righteousness of God (which is attested by the law and the prophets) has been disclosed- v 22 namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ." (Romans 3:20-22 NET Bible) Emphasis mine.
"Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the descendant to whom the promise had been made...if a law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law....But now faith has come we are no longer under a guardian [the law]," (Gal 3:19, 25 NET Bible)
The law was self limiting and limited, pointing to something greater: the revelation and first coming of Christ (the Romans scriptures cited above). Christ Himself is said to be the fullness of the godhead bodily, not the law (Colossians 2:9 NET Bible)
"...realizing that the law is not intended for a righteous person, but for lawless and rebellious people, for ungodly and for sinners..." (1 Tim. 1:9)
The law (Torah) was intended to condemn and to reveal the sinful heart of men. It was not intended to continue indefinitely. There was the limitation in that it could not save but it so cornered mankind in his sin that he had no recourse but to something greater in Christ: mercy and grace without ignoring the justice of God.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 7/24/2008 4:51:02 PM >
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 5:55:47 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1161
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
jOHN 1:1 In the beginning was The Word(Ha Logos) and The Word(Ha Logos) was with God and The Word(Ha Logos) was God.
This does not refer to the limited revelation of the Scriptural manuscripts, but the fullness of Adonai.
I can agree with this. The fullness being Jesus Himself.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
In the same way Ha Torah is a term that at least some rabbis have considered to be not just the Scriptural manuscripts of the first five books of the canon, but the fullness of Adonai.
I have to draw the line here. I do not agree in any way shape or form that the first five books of the OT (Torah) represents the fullness of God. Nor do I believe that the illumination of the Holy Spirit is what unveils Torah as the representation of God's completeness and perfection. I don't want to halt our discussion, but I simply cannot agree with this.
The appearing of Christ is the additional and final Word that makes the completeness and perfection of God known to mankind above and beyond Torah. IOW, Christ is not just the unveiling of Torah. He is the unveiling of truth above and beyond Torah.
We do have to stop here. Are you saying that the Apistolic writings are the completeness of Adoani, or what is revealed in the Apistolic writings is a limited view of Yeshua and Yeshua is the fullness of Adonai?
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 6:14:22 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1891
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
jOHN 1:1 In the beginning was The Word(Ha Logos) and The Word(Ha Logos) was with God and The Word(Ha Logos) was God.
This does not refer to the limited revelation of the Scriptural manuscripts, but the fullness of Adonai.
I can agree with this. The fullness being Jesus Himself.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
In the same way Ha Torah is a term that at least some rabbis have considered to be not just the Scriptural manuscripts of the first five books of the canon, but the fullness of Adonai.
I have to draw the line here. I do not agree in any way shape or form that the first five books of the OT (Torah) represents the fullness of God. Nor do I believe that the illumination of the Holy Spirit is what unveils Torah as the representation of God's completeness and perfection. I don't want to halt our discussion, but I simply cannot agree with this.
The appearing of Christ is the additional and final Word that makes the completeness and perfection of God known to mankind above and beyond Torah. IOW, Christ is not just the unveiling of Torah. He is the unveiling of truth above and beyond Torah.
We do have to stop here. Are you saying that the Apistolic writings are the completeness of Adoani, or what is revealed in the Apistolic writings is a limited view of Yeshua and Yeshua is the fullness of Adonai?
Greetings,
Relax...Blue, we all know there is no such thing as as the unveiling of truth above and beyond Torah
Mt 10:24 - Show Context
"A student (disciple) is not above his teacher (Jesus), nor a servant (Jesus) above his master.(God)
If that were true that of truth, then above and beyond Torah was not even a given to Jesus while on the earth....
Acts 1:6-11
"It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.
But they asked.....6 they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You ……….at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" (He knew!)
7 And He said to them…"It is not for “you to know” ...because for some reason the disciples thought is would be Jesus who is going to restore the kingdom to Israel,
When it is plastered all over the prophetic plain that it wi | | |
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