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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 8:12:57 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2458
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Little_1
What have I discovered so far:
I do not believe that whether we do or do not observe God's feasts affects the 'born again' Christian's salvation in any way whatsoever.
All are in agreement on this.
That doesn't jive with Jesus’ or Paul's own words. Jesus plainly said the way you commune with Him and the Father, and enjoy the revelation and manifestation of Him to you (the way some say can only be done through the observance of the OT Feasts) is to...love. You cannot be disobedient to the command to love and expect to enjoy the fullness of God's blessing--His presence. Biblical love is the obedience that God rewards with His presence.
You are not incorrect there, because these represent what the writer called the riches and the glory in Christ Jesus.
Yet you are being stubborn by not seeing this….
Let me see if I can explain that
Those I wills… are according to the covenants made by God with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and are without repentance; and in that… we are now also partakers of that “same root”… “With” Israel.
This is the most common relationship we have together with them that these promises are God “given”, and also are without repentance in Christ Jesus according to the flesh…. these are already given according to the flesh (physical).
The riches and glory in Christ Jesus are Spiritual blessings, because God is Spirit and seeks such to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth,
those I wills in the covenant made with the children of Israel at the mountain; is that if you do this then God will do that… according the blessing and the curse; “These have not been destroyed” …because God wants to bless us in the physical (flesh)…. and by the riches and glory in Christ Jesus if Jesus destroyed the Law; or the covenant made in the flesh; then both the blessing and the curse would have been eliminated.
I do not believe that whether we do or do not observe God's feasts affects the 'born again' Christian's salvation in any way whatsoever. All are in agreement on this.
No is doesn’t affect our salvation…..There can be many who enjoy these Spiritual riches; and at the same time “in the flesh”… be in poverty, and in like manner many Jews are blessed in the flesh yet enjoy no Spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus…
…..There can be many who enjoy these Spiritual riches; and at the same time “in the flesh”… be in poverty… because we do not observe what God has already given
Luke 19
19:42
Saying, "If you only knew today what is needed for shalom! But for now it (shalom) is hidden from your sight
Matthew 23:34-39
39 for I say to you, you shall “see Me”( = the prince of Peace!).. no more
till you say,
'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' "
According to the promises that are without repentance made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the “observant” Jew is still blessed by God to this day….yet do not have any peace (shalom) in Christ Jesus
Loyal Gypsy
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 8:59:46 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2408
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
Since Bluethread was attempting to show the value of living life according to Torah, to one who says that cannot be done,
that "one" is Sponge you mean ? I am confident that "there is no value to life according to Torah" is not the position S holds. Torah includes way too much in order to make a broad claim like that. What he is saying is- literal keeping of feasts, and other similar things are:
-not binding anymore
-do not make an observant person love God and brethren any more or better then those who don’t.
to the 2nd point esp. I add a hearty Amen! I haven't noticed any correlation b/n a person being a practicing messianic ( of one of the many Mess. flavors) and increased production of the fruit of Holy Spirit in that person’s life.
That doesn’t mean that it is not a valid, decent religion of choice to those, for whom in works. Messianic doesnt work for me, for example, but it works for Blue. Therefore “live and let live”
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 9:08:09 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2408
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
Unless I am mistaken in my understanding of the interpretation of the Hebrew Bible….then that attempt to show the value is called remez..….and means to reiterate in a meaning that we can all relate to.
MC redefined the term into Remez Lite :) ? what you describing sounds like a a very cleaned up, post-rehab version. I was taking about true remez as it is understood /used in Judaism. One of it’s parts is gematria, numerology, in practical reality of using hermeneutic it is an unseparable part of kaballistic theories, there is no escaping that.
quote:
You must be thinking of Drash, and Sod, remez has nothing to do with that.
How does that saying go? In theory, there is no difference b/n theory and practice. In practice, there is. 
In theological books there are distinct 4, progressively deepeing levels of interpretation, but reality the lines between then are vague. That is where you mistaken , thinking that Hebrew ways of interpetaion follow the linear pattern of western ways.
That is why I said once a person gets carried away… then midrash, sod and other troubles creep in. I know for a fact that some MC brands play with this, I talked to peeps /read evidence.
quote:
The p'shat is mainly seen on the surface, which I call surface dwellers, he p'shat is whatever the scripture says is what it means; and if misunderstood becomes void of revelation (relationship with other scripture)
Sure, I believe I already addressed it in the previous post, may I re-quote :
No,Sponge doesnt use literal ,generic interpretations, he is tons smarter then that and i see him being pretty critical. I am glad it works for some; but i think the approach of "comparing Scripture with Scripture" wors best for a christian that recognizes other Scripture besides Torah ;)
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 9:16:15 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2458
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Loyal,
Come back come back where ever you are.
quote:
But they asked.....6 they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You ……….at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" (He knew!)
7 And He said to them…"It is not for “you to know” ...because for some reason the disciples thought is would be Jesus who is going to restore the kingdom to Israel,
When it is plastered all over the prophetic plain that it will be God Himself who is going to do that...
And its funny how it was mentioned that ….”the final Word that makes the completeness and perfection of God known to mankind above and beyond Torah” yet....as we can see above!.... Jesus Himself has not yet revealed to us …just what that is....
SO…Relax...Blue, it’s all deliberate!
The scripture you quoted for this is not on the same page as anything in this tread.
The disciples were asking him if he was going to restore the nation of Israel again. Because it was written in the prophets especially in Isaiah about Israel coming back to life. The way you wrote that sounded like LDS remark. That Jesus was lower than God, infact was a brother of Satan they teach.
You need to study Rev. where it states that he (Jesus) will return with great power.
Greetings,
quote:
The scripture you quoted for this is not on the same page as anything in this tread.
Its definitly not on the page your on at the momwent 
so I guess you beleive I am treading on thin Ice?
....on this here
quote:
The disiciples were asking him if he was going to restore the nation of Israel again. Because it was written in the prophets especially in Isaiah about Israel coming back to life.
We have to ask ourselves when did Jesus restore Isreal the first time ;for Him to do it again?
The scripture reads that they asked Him if He was going to restore the KINGDOM to Israel, not the nation!!!
quote:
You need to study Rev. where it states that he (Jesus) will return with great power.
I have already and have already given what it tells us
Q ...it is plastered all over the prophetic plain that it will be God Himself who is going to do that...
Let me show ya a little tid-bit here, when Jesus said to them, it is not for them to know what the Father has put in His own authority...that means what it means,
They asked Jesus if He was going to restore the Kingdom, it was not in Jesus authority to do that!
When the speakers and the writers of the NT relate to the reiteration of the trinity, they name either the Father the Son or the HS; each has a particular role.
When a scripture mentioning either of the 3 by name, …lets say for example if Jesus mentions the Father, then we need to apply only those attributes concerning the Father ...not the attributes of the HS because the HS was not mentioned,
And in like manner if Jesus mentions the HS then we need to apply only those attributes concerning the HS and not the Father because the Father was not mentioned
So this is not what Jesus said here
1 it is not for them to know what the HS has put in His own authority
John 16:13
2 it is not for them to know what Jesus has put in His own authority
John 7:17
6 they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You
This is the correct application; is it is not for them to know what the Father has put in His own authority
quote:
The way you wrote that sounded like LDS remark.
Not exactly, we are right on the money...but who told you that anyway? 
...........Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?"
I believe you may be listening to too many other opinions’.??
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 10:06:17 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1543
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...The second in its context (Lev 19:17) "'Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt. 18 "'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord."
Though this is not a complete definiton of love, I believe these two commandments, in context, show us the true nature of love.
We don't see and understand the full and true nature of God's love except through the knowledge of that love as given in the NT scriptures. Only through the knowlege of Christ's work on the cross and the revelation of the Holy Spirit do we know what it truly means to love as God loves. The writers of the NT had the knowledge, inspiration, and revelation of God's love by the Holy Spirit that we might also know that same love. The OT scriptures did not disclose the extent of God's love and character as it has now been disclosed in the New Covenant.
Let's remember what started this latest round of discussion so we don't get unfocused. I don't want you to forget where you were going.
I have not forgotten where we are going. You asked me why I believe a Torah lifestyle is appropriate for today. In order to explain this we must first come to an understanding of who Adonai is, who we are and what Adonai expects of us.
To recap, we agree that there is an infinite creator that communicates with His creation and that communication, if complete and understood properly, would give us a clear understanding of His character.
I then asked you,"Is it logically safe to proceed to the conclusion that the written Scriptures are a mere representation of Adonai and The Word is Adonai Himself, as the Apostle John tells us in the beginning of his account of the incarnation?" You assented to this.
Then, It appeared to me, in your post before the last one you were saying that Yeshua, who is The Living Word, and the Apostolic Writtings are one and the same. So, please, without going into a argument over which "testament" is superior, tell me are Yeshua and the Apostolic Writtings one and the same?
I am sorry that I got sidetracked by the others, but they were bring up the issues that I wished to get out of the way so we could focus on the road ahead. Those issues are whether or not when one could use the term logos, torah or word, without getting confused by the connotations and whether either of these terms are preferable over the other when refering to Adonai and the Scriptures. I believe torah is the better term because it implies personal relationship and the others, in my understanding, have had more impersonal connotations. However, I conceeded that we need not look at these issues as long as we agree that any term we use to refer to Adonai carries with it the connotation of the personal. Also, when we use these terms to refer to the Scriptures we preface them with the term "written" to avoid confusion.
Do you have a problem with these agreements by those who are presently on the thread?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/27/2008 1:05:05 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 979
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...To recap, we agree that there is an infinite creator that communicates with His creation and that communication, if complete and understood properly, would give us a clear understanding of His character.
Yes. And that communication has been made complete in the coming of Christ, of which the NT is all about. We understand all about God's character from what we know about Christ, and what we experience through the Holy Spirit.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...It appeared to me, in your post before the last one you were saying that Yeshua, who is The Living Word, and the Apostolic Writtings are one and the same. So, please, without going into a argument over which "testament" is superior, tell me are Yeshua and the Apostolic Writtings one and the same?
No. But they do have life in them, as they are clearly inhabited by His Spirit and are inspired by Him. They are the Words He has spoken. His whole life is a Word for us from God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I am sorry that I got sidetracked by the others, but they were bring up the issues that I wished to get out of the way so we could focus on the road ahead. Those issues are whether or not when one could use the term logos, torah or word, without getting confused by the connotations and whether either of these terms are preferable over the other when refering to Adonai and the Scriptures. I believe torah is the better term because it implies personal relationship and the others, in my understanding, have had more impersonal connotations.
The others were not the distraction. I just don't feel it's necessary to dissect this particular subject the way you have so far. But if you must do that to support your argument, then do that. It's probably best to just state your argument without first seeking my affirmation of supporting premises.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
However, I conceeded that we need not look at these issues as long as we agree that any term we use to refer to Adonai carries with it the connotation of the personal. Also, when we use these terms to refer to the Scriptures we preface them with the term "written" to avoid confusion.
Do you have a problem with these agreements by those who are presently on the thread?
No problem. I'm a born again, Spirit-sealed, English speaking believer. If we just stick to using English (I don't speak Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek) we can avoid alot of this confusion. And Because I have the Spirit I know clearly that God is an intelligent, personable being, not an impersonal force.
Only a handful of Bible words mean anything to me in their original language apart from an English explanation of that word (agape is a good example). The 'Word of God' to me means the spoken Word of God that has been recorded for us in the Bible. If you want to refer to something else, then say you mean something else in an English explanation. Otherwise we can agree that the 'Word of God' means the Bible.
What's next?
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/27/2008 8:51:55 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 979
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
Since Bluethread was attempting to show the value of living life according to Torah, to one who says that cannot be done,
that "one" is Sponge you mean ? I am confident that "there is no value to life according to Torah" is not the position S holds. Torah includes way too much in order to make a broad claim like that. What he is saying is- literal keeping of feasts, and other similar things are:
-not binding anymore
-do not make an observant person love God and brethren any more or better then those who don’t.
to the 2nd point esp. I add a hearty Amen! I haven't noticed any correlation b/n a person being a practicing messianic ( of one of the many Mess. flavors) and increased production of the fruit of Holy Spirit in that person’s life.
That doesn’t mean that it is not a valid, decent religion of choice to those, for whom in works. Messianic doesnt work for me, for example, but it works for Blue. Therefore “live and let live”
Bingo. Any blessing that comes from literal OT worship law observance is relative to what it means to the person doing it.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/27/2008 9:51:22 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 979
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy (emphasis by Sponge)
No is doesn’t affect our salvation…..There can be many who enjoy these Spiritual riches; and at the same time “in the flesh”… be in poverty, and in like manner many Jews are blessed in the flesh yet enjoy no Spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus…
…..There can be many who enjoy these Spiritual riches; and at the same time “in the flesh”… be in poverty… because we do not observe what God has already given
Not according to Paul...
" 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise." (Gal. 3:16-18)
Paul is talking about God's promise to Abraham. Which obviously includes the literal promises as well as the spiritual. And Paul is clear on this--they are not conditional on law. Abraham secured them through believing, not works of (any) law.
The next obvious question is, "then what's the law for?" Paul answers that in the next verses. The law was given to drive us to belief in Christ so we could inherit the blessing that only comes by believing. And now that the law has done that we are no longer under the supervision (not just the punishment) of that appointed slave whose task was to make sure we arrived at faith.
It's all about believing, not works of the law. Works are the measure of our believing. And the NT is clear that it is the works of love (by a changed character in the Holy Spirit) that prove our believing, not the externals like circumcision, which used to be so absolutely required, but is no longer required in the New Covenant.
Just as it was for Abraham, so it is for us. The blessing comes through believing. And as it was also for Abraham, believing is evidenced by obedience. For His time and circumstance his faith was proven by his obedience in offering up Issac, knowing that not even death could stop God from fulfilling His promise through Issac.
For our time and circumstance the object of our faith is Jesus. We have brought the sacrifice of Jesus, crucified by our sin, to God believing that the death He died has no hold on Him and cannot prevent God from fulfilling His promises to Jesus on our behalf.
The outward proof that someone has believed God this way is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit as seen in a life lived out in the fruit of the Spirit. External worship is not proof of one's believing. The ancient Israelites and millions and millions of people since then have proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt. We know this so well now in the revelation that came with the New Covenant that literal circumcision isn't even required anymore!
Only the character of Christ in a person (as seen in the fruit of the Spirit) is the obedience that proves you believe God. And it is that believing that secures the blessing of Abraham apart from any work of any law.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/28/2008 8:31:46 AM
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drussell52
Posts: 208
Joined: 4/24/2008
From: Michigan
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Hello Odeliya, Spunge, Blue and you.. I have been hanging out on another forum that seems to match better with my current season of life, but wanted to suggest some short reading for any on either side of this issue. It's the Frequently Asked Questions, FAQ at www.ffoz.org/info/faqs.htm You will see some adverts between the answers and the succeeeding question. One of the main points made there is in Jesus and Paul's day, Christianity as it came to be, or as we know it had not been fully realized so folks/believers, likely attended church on the Sabbath, were torah observant because the New Testament was in development if you will, and it was assumed Christian education then included learning torah which means instruction. I would also add, Proverbs quoted by many evangelicals, is described as a book showing how to get along with humankind, Psalms, to get along with God. That's "keeping law" in a positive sense or living set apart if you prefer. None of this makes your salvation more secure, but it does speak in my opinion to dedication. Anyhow, think you might find this link worth reading. Unlike most Messianics I have encountered, small number, my challenge is more to keep the "ethic" tought in the Scripture versus outward manifestations of it, i.e., diet, sabbath, and feast days. The reason in part is I have a wife and 2 teens who think to move in that direction is - sahll we say, totally up to you dad.. That's putting it nicely since this is a "family forum." Later, gotta run, send comments via PM if you care too.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/28/2008 9:34:42 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2408
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..quote:
wanted to suggest some short reading for any on either side of this issue. It's the Frequently Asked Questions, FAQ at www.ffoz.org/info/faqs.htm You will see some adverts between the answers and the succeeeding question.
you mistyped the link dear, accidentally, its HERE
I will check them out and give you the critique. But from the get-go : we all here in total agreement about the vital importance of OT, Torah,Proverbs, psalms, and all related studies
There is no debate about that issue whatsoever.
quote:
Unlike most Messianics I have encountered, small number, my challenge is more to keep the "ethic" tought in the Scripture versus outward manifestations of it, i.e., diet, sabbath, and feast days. The reason in part is I have a wife and 2 teens who think to move in that direction is - sahll we say, totally up to you dad.. God bless you and guide you.
some very respectful parents here would surely be of more help then i, i'll just say Honesty. Be honest with them and yourself. Considering the lack of pretentiousness and religiosity in your approach - i think you have a good chance to be more then a dad but spiritual mentor. Dont ever be dishonest about your feelings on religious matters, even if it sounds good.In general - less religion, plz. Your teens see your thru as on X ray, even if they dont say it. Trust me, i was one :)
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/28/2008 11:55:21 AM
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labellavita
Posts: 7
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mattumanu
I'm glad you think it's great stuff, but let point something out to you that will turn you even farther from that old way. Jesus didn't say "my WAY is the way, the truth, and the life" he said "I AM the way, the truth, and the life". He said "narrow is path that leads to life, and wide is the path to destruction" then goes on to say "I AM the gate". I hang my head many times when people say that Jesus wasn't being literal when he says "I am the door"... but the truth is, he WAS being literal. Being justified by Grace alone, through faith alone, because of Christ's person and work alone is very difficult to grasp for an optimistic culture that believes "if they aren't out of the ballpark" they can be saved. That kind of thinking, optimistic thinking, leads to us sounding like Stuart Smalley: "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and dogone it, people like me".
Jesus is the Way, the truth, the life. HE is the Word made flesh! What Word? Since the NT hadn't been written yet, the Word is the Torah. Jesus was perfect, He wore His tzit tzit, ate clean foods, kept the Sabbath, and honored God's feasts and festivals. Aren't we supposed to model ourselves after Jesus? Well, what did He do? Not some corny cliche, I mean what did He REALLY do?
Narrow *is* the way that leads to life, and frankly, doing what MOST churches teach is not the narrow way, that is the wide way, the way most trodden.
We are saved by grace, but He also expects something out of us. If you have no law, you have no sin, if you have no sin, you need no grace, if you need no grace, you don't need Him and He died for nothing. The law is a set of standards of living as we are to be holy like Him. Are we to be lawless? Of course not.
There are soooooo many verses in the NT that state "keep my commandments" if you love me keep my commandments, those that keep my commandments have the right to the tree of life, it goes on and on, and I frankly don't get how so many Christians work so hard to 'prove' to themselves and others that they are not under the law.
We are all under the law. The law does not save, we are saved by grace. The New Covenant puts the law into our hearts. Jesus and Paul taught the law.
You live it out of love, or as a checklist. I live it out of love.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/28/2008 12:00:57 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3614
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
Since the NT hadn't been written yet, the Word is the Torah.
Welcome labellavita.
This is a concept that is hard for many to grasp.
Just as the Scriptures the Bereans searched to see
if Paul was telling the truth. What Scriptures? The Torah. lol.
All scripture is inspired. What scripture? The Torah.
We can concede the NT is also inspired. But, when that verse
was written that we quote so often, it was referring to the Torah.
Oh, yeah, you guys have to belive me (Paul) because I just wrote
the NT and it's inspired.
Balance and Context. Always "king."
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/28/2008 12:13:14 PM
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labellavita
Posts: 7
Joined: 7/28/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
It was only through the obedience that I began to truly understand more of the Character and Holiness of our God. His wisdom and his true love for His children. It helps me to see the Big Picture and not focus on self and put stock in my power.
Amen! I thought I loved Him before, but now that I'm really reading and digging into the OT I'm really learning His character, what it is He values, and my love has grown tremendously.
Dawned on me one day, how can I understand the end of a book if I didn't read and understand the beginning? Same holds true for the bible. A lot gets lost/misinterpreted if you just start 2/3 of the way through the book. And use your 2008 mindset. ;-)
Really knowing deep in my heart that He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, has done wonders for my relationship with Him.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/28/2008 12:16:12 PM
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labellavita
Posts: 7
Joined: 7/28/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
So actually, by not offering sacrifices, we're following Torah
No, that's living as a nation in exile from God and under His condemnation and judgment.
That is it exactly, IMO. The loss of the Temple and the whole system was God's judgment and condemnation on a people who had missed the mark.
I'm not directly directing this to you ;-) but it amazes me the pride that I find from Christians directed towards Jews, how they missed the mark, and how *they* are doing so much better. Uhm, aren't we warned against being prideful? Does anyone really think the church is doing so much better?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/28/2008 1:12:01 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 979
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: labellavita
...Paul taught the law.
Minus Leviticus chapters 1 - 15, and many other passages. If you want we can start listing all the passages we know were most definately a part of God's Word in Paul's day but which are no longer applicable in the New Covenant.
Invariably, when a new person comes into the thread we pretty much have to start over. And I guess that's okay as long we get right down to the point of contention. Nobody wants to be 'lawless' here. But it's clear that some of God's Word recorded for us in Torah is simply not literally binding anymore. So it's not a matter of 'Torah vs. no Torah'. It's a matter of what is still literally binding and what is not.
Nobody here argues the fact that we uphold the principle of love for our neighbor as taught in Torah (albeit, now fulfilled in the new way of the Spirit). It's this matter of the outward, external laws of worship. Like circumcision, I contend they have found their fulfillment in the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit and are no longer required to be fulfilled literally, having been fulfilled perfectly on our behalf by God Himself when we believed. If something so absolutely essential to the people of God as circumcision can now be understood in it's more important spiritual meaning, why can't other outward 'proofs' or 'signs' of faith also be relegated as a big nothing (as Paul says) in regard to confirming one's relationship with God?
The NT gives us a detailed understanding of what the obedience is that we should seek to walk in to show ourselves saved. Character is the way we prove our relationship with God. The externals count for nothing, and no man should take confidence in the works of the flesh, namely the OT worship laws, as the way that God has ordained to prove you have faith. That's not an outright prohibition against following them. It's an outright prohibition from understanding those OT things as the obedience that God requires of His people. And that essentially makes the matter of observance of OT laws of worship a personal/ denominational preference, not a continuing requirement of God.
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/28/2008 2:03:34 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1977
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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quote:
There are soooooo many verses in the NT that state "keep my commandments" if you love me keep my commandments, those that keep my commandments have the right to the tree of life, it goes on and on, and I frankly don't get how so many Christians work so hard to 'prove' to themselves and others that they are not under the law.
Hi labellavita and welcome.
Just a quick question...when Christ says keep my commandment, what in your opinion was He referring to?
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/28/2008 5:12:01 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3614
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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Interesting layout of the Feasts..........
(in their opinion)
Part 1
Part 2
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/28/2008 6:20:25 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1543
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...To recap, we agree that there is an infinite creator that communicates with His creation and that communication, if complete and understood properly, would give us a clear understanding of His character.
Yes. And that communication has been made complete in the coming of Christ, of which the NT is all about. We understand all about God's character from what we know about Christ, and what we experience through the Holy Spirit.
Though what you say may be true, we have not yet to established that. We can not even determine what we know of The Christ( The Messiah), if we do not know what that means. Also, we can not be sure that we share the same experiences or if those experiences are through the Holy Spirit unless we have something to compare them to. Therefore, let's stick to what has been established an move on from there.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...tell me are Yeshua and the Apostolic Writings one and the same?
No. But they do have life in them, as they are clearly inhabited by His Spirit and are inspired by Him. They are the Words He has spoken. His whole life is a Word for us from God.
I'm still not sure you understand the question. Yeshua is everything that Adonai is and there is nothing of Yeshua that is not Adonai. Did you believe this statement to be true and if we were to replace the word "Yeshua" with the words "Apostolic Writings" would it still be true.
quote:
The others were not the distraction. I just don't feel it's necessary to dissect this particular subject the way you have so far. But if you must do that to support your argument, then do that. It's probably best to just state your argument without first seeking my affirmation of supporting premises.
The reason it is important to find agreement on ones premises is because, it is not reasonable to believe that there would be agreement on the conclusions based on those premises otherwise.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
However, I conceeded that we need not look at these issues as long as we agree that any term we use to refer to Adonai carries with it the connotation of the personal. Also, when we use these terms to refer to the Scriptures we preface them with the term "written" to avoid confusion.
Do you have a problem with these agreements by those who are presently on the thread?
No problem. I'm a born again, Spirit-sealed, English speaking believer. If we just stick to using English (I don't speak Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek) we can avoid alot of this confusion. And Because I have the Spirit I know clearly that God is an intelligent, personable being, not an impersonal force.
Only a handful of Bible words mean anything to me in their original language apart from an English explanation of that word (agape is a good example). The 'Word of God' to me means the spoken Word of God that has been recorded for us in the Bible. If you want to refer to something else, then say you mean something else in an English explanation. Otherwise we can agree that the 'Word of God' means the Bible .
There appears to be a problem. You ended by saying that "we can agree that the 'Word of God' means the Bible". I was asking that we refer to the Bible as "the written Word of God" to differentiate it from the actual words that proceeded from Adonai and have been copied and translated into what we now refer to as the Bible. This is important in determining whether one should consider the Bible to be Adonai or merely a "darkened glass" through which we view Adonai, as Paul refers to it.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/28/2008 6:34:31 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1794
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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labellavita saidquote:
There are soooooo many verses in the NT that state "keep my commandments" if you love me keep my commandments, those that keep my commandments have the right to the tree of life, it goes on and on, and I frankly don't get how so many Christians work so hard to 'prove' to themselves and others that they are not under the law.
You assume, falsely, that Jesus' words "Keep my commandments" referred to the commandments of the Law. That wasn't what He meant. With reference to the Mosaic law, Jesus says "Your law..." or "Moses said..." I am not aware of any references to the law that He calls "My commandments."
For example, I suggest you read Matthew chapter 5. He said several times: "You have heard that it was said...but I say to you..." Does that sound like He was saying exactly the same things the law said?
quote:
We are all under the law. The law does not save, we are saved by grace. The New Covenant puts the law into our hearts. Jesus and Paul taught the law.
We are not under the law. Paul says that Christians are not under law but under grace.
Labellavita you would do well to pay attention to the words of Spongeblog. Many of the things you spoke of were dealt with already.
He (Spongeblog) saidquote:
Invariably, when a new person comes into the thread we pretty much have to start over. And I guess that's okay as long we get right down to the point of contention.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 7/28/2008 6:50:46 PM >
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/28/2008 8:16:40 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 979
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...we can not be sure that we share the same experiences or if those experiences are through the Holy Spirit unless we have something to compare them to. Therefore, let's stick to what has been established an move on from there.
Aren't we told, "Do not go beyond what is written" (1 Cor. 4:6)? What's been written is good enough for me. Or is that not what you meant? But I agree with the first part, that our experiences should be validated in some way by what we know from the written scriptures.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I'm still not sure you understand the question. Yeshua is everything that Adonai is and there is nothing of Yeshua that is not Adonai. Did you believe this statement to be true...
Yes, because that's what the Bible says.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...and if we were to replace the word "Yeshua" with the words "Apostolic Writings" would it still be true.
No. The words on the pages of my NT are not Jesus incarnate. They are ink and paper. But it is true that Jesus spoke those words in my NT, and that He still speaks them to this day into the hearts of men. It is only in that sense that the NT and Jesus are one and the same thing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
There appears to be a problem. You ended by saying that "we can agree that the 'Word of God' means the Bible". I was asking that we refer to the Bible as "the written Word of God"...
In my mind there is no difference. But no prob...'written Word of God' means the 'Bible'...and 'Bible' means 'written Word of God'.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...to differentiate it from the actual words that proceeded from Adonai and have been copied and translated into what we now refer to as the Bible.
Now we got a problem. I wonder why we should think there is enough of a difference between what God said, or intended to say, and what actually got recorded to warrant making that distinction, but for the sake of argument we can assume they are not exact.
But how will we know that and prove it? So it's a moot point. We need to just accept the sciptures the way we have them. You can make the distinction between the written Word of God and what God actually said if you want to make a point.
But anything that isn't in the Bible we'll have to put under the category of 'personal conviction' since there is no way to confirm it as the actual spoken Word of God. The closest thing we can do to proving one's convictions is to examine evidence already in the Bible that may or may not reasonably support the possibily of those convictions.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
This is important in determining whether one should consider the Bible to be Adonai or merely a "darkened glass" through which we view Adonai, as Paul refers to it.
Remember, Peter said we have everything we need to be like Him now in this age. What we see 'darkly as through a glass' is what we will be in our glorified state.
This discussion is about knowing and understanding the character of Jesus, not understanding the totality of what it will be like, along with Him in our glorified state. The glorified state is the mystery still to be known, not the mystery of godliness now disclosed in Christ.
"2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)
"35...How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?".
37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined. 39...the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.
42...The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye... 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. (1 Corinthians 15)
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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, but i really learn a lot in the process from all of you people. 
