RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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bob97 -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (8/28/2008 12:35:37 AM)

Hi LBolt...what about 1 John 4:21?

1 John 4:21 (KJV) 21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.


Is this not the commandment referred to? Because Paul tells if if we keep this commandment we have kept them all.

Bob



SpongeBlog -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (8/28/2008 8:34:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Then I don't know how you define grace.

Justice is getting exactly what you deserve (nothing more/ nothing less). Mercy is not getting what you deserve. And grace is getting something you don't deserve.

God's justice is made known through the law. His mercy and grace were made known to us in Jesus Christ.

"...the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17)




quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...As I pointed out in conjuction with what you quote, I think that is because you have been raised in asociety that has been greatly influenced by Ha Torah. Therefore, you see Ha Torah as the extreme and not gracious(merciful).

No. I see Torah as the measure of God's right and true justice. If you look at the definitions I provided you'll see justice is what you deserve for an offense. There's nothing merciful about that. But if I am released from the just penalty of the law, that is mercy.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Many times in the Tanach(old testiment) we are told that Adonai has been gracious to us.

It says God has been merciful to us. It does not say the law has been merciful to us. The law is the standard that makes mercy what it is above and beyond law.

" 13 "What has happened to us is a result of our evil deeds and our great guilt, and yet, our God, you have punished us less than our sins have deserved and have given us a remnant like this. (Ezra 9:13)

"8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love. 9 He will not always accuse, nor will he harbor his anger forever; 10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities." (Psalm 103:8-10)

Don't you agree the standard by which we know what our sins deserves is the law? And even in the OT God was merciful and gracious and was slow in executing the right and just penalties prescribed in the law.

I'm out of time for now...



Bluethread -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (8/28/2008 1:12:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog

Justice is getting exactly what you deserve (nothing more/ nothing less). Mercy is not getting what you deserve. And grace is getting something you don't deserve.

God's justice is made known through the law. His mercy and grace were made known to us in Jesus Christ.

"...the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17)


This is a simple literal interpretation of the passage. The two are not mutually exclusive. This verse follows and clarifies (John 1:14). "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Ha Torah was revealed to use through the writings of Moshe and the grace and truth of Ha Torah, of which Moshe's writings are a incomplete representation, were made clear to us through Yeshua Ha Meshiach, Ha Torah in the flesh.



quote:

No. I see Torah as the measure of God's right and true justice. If you look at the definitions I provided you'll see justice is what you deserve for an offense. There's nothing merciful about that. But if I am released from the just penalty of the law, that is mercy.


The written Torah records many examples of grace, so to see it as a series of cold hard regulations is to ignore Ha Ruach Adonai(The Spirit of Adonai).



quote:

It says God has been merciful to us. It does not say the law has been merciful to us. The law is the standard that makes mercy what it is above and beyond law.

" 13 "What has happened to us is a result of our evil deeds and our great guilt, and yet, our God, you have punished us less than our sins have deserved and have given us a remnant like this. (Ezra 9:13)

"8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love. 9 He will not always accuse, nor will he harbor his anger forever; 10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities." (Psalm 103:8-10)

Don't you agree the standard by which we know what our sins deserves is the law? And even in the OT God was merciful and gracious and was slow in executing the right and just penalties prescribed in the law.


That is precisely my point. The difference appears to be that you see the written Torah as Ha Torah. The written Torah is an incomplete representation of Ha Torah. Ha Torah is Adonai, as Yochanan(John) tells us in the beginning of his history of Yeshua. (John 1:1) "In the beginning was the Word(Ha Torah), and the Word(Ha Torah) was with God, and the Word(Ha Torah) was God."

Therefore, when Adonai is gracious to us He does so in accordance with Ha Torah, because He is Ha Torah.



LBolt -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (8/28/2008 3:51:00 PM)

Hi Bob97,

You are right but you must understand this was considered the "heart of Torah" or the "spirit of the Torah"...Love God and love your neighbor. This was not a new teaching maybe a renew teaching but not something that was completely revolutionary and innovative. This was even taught by both of the popular and revered rabbi's, Hillel and Shammua.

I'm about to do a study on the beautitudes, which is a study of Torah. Yahshua said this in John 5:"45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"

In your opinion or as you understand, what does these verses mean to you? Why did Mosiach make such a profound statement as this and what does it mean?



SpongeBlog -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (8/28/2008 5:36:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...In a biblical society, who has authority to administer justice and mercy?

"...select capable men from all the people—men who fear God, trustworthy men who hate dishonest gain—and appoint them as officials over thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens. 22 Have them serve as judges for the people at all times..." (Exodus 18:21-22)

If memory serves me correctly, the witness to someone indulging open idol worship is the time when the one bringing the accusation is to be the first in executing the death penalty upon that person. Apart from that, I'm not convinced everyone could go around carrying out the prescribed penalties for sin found in the law. Who would want to do that anyway? How can we expect mercy if we ourselves do not give mercy to those found in the wrong? In general, judgement belonged to the authorities appointed to carry out that judgement.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Here are your assertions. Circumcision was required for observance of Pesach. Circumcision was required for for adherance to the Covenant.

Your conclusion, circumcision was "absolutely required" of God's people before and during the time of the law.

First the conclusion does not follow due to a change in terminology, required and absolutely required.


Required--absolutely required. Same difference to me. No suggestion was intended that one is different from the other. Required is required if one insists on relating through a sense of law.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
True, circumcision is required for observance of Pesach and the Covenant. However, as we know obserance of Pesach and the Covenant is on outward expression of the inward reality.

The law did not make any stipulations that you only do it if your heart is right. It was required to stay in covenant with God. Period. (Of course it wasn't the only requirement).


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If you did not notice, only Adonai passed through the fire at the inception of the Covenant. Thus, it is a unilateral covenant. Adonai agrees to be gracious to us under certain circumstances. If we put ourselves in those circumstances we recieve the benefit of that grace. We are not absolutely required to do anything. Only Adonai is. If we do not want His blessing we need do nothing.

But this grace you talk about was not guaranteed under the time of the law. You had nothing to base a guarantee on that God would be gracious to you or not if you were guilty of a 'sin unto death' according to the law. David was shown grace. The proverbial Sabbath breaker of Numbers 15(?)...well, you know how that ended. He did not see God's grace--the grace that was not available to either him or David under the law, but could only come from outside of the law.

It's amazing to me how you relegate laws that have stiff penalties like being 'cut off' and 'put to death' as optional and not required. Just so you and others don't use this argument anymore, let it be understood we all know we have complete and total freedom to do anything we want in this life (slap your boss. Blow your brains out). That does not make those things 'not required'.

If you want to achieve a goal and someone has specified what you must do to achieve that goal then those things become 'required'--plain and simple. From now on this is the only definition of 'required' I will entertain in this thread. God once said you will die if you do this or that. So for someone who wants to stay alive you had to obey to achieve that goal. But that simply isn't true anymore in regard to some things. As proof we all know you will neither die physically nor spiritually if you do not observe a literal Sabbath. God's voice has indeed changed. What was once required to obtain a certain goal is now no longer required to obtain that same goal.





quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Second, your conclusion doesn't follow because circumcision is not even mentioned before the Covenant. So, though it may have been handed down from Adam, the Scriptures do not tell us that.

I don't care when it was handed down. I'm not trying to develop an argument based on when it was first instituted except to point out that it predates the law and is still not required. It was a requirement under the law. It is not a requirement now.





quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Yes, Paul's statement would be absurd if he meant it as you believe he did. If circumcision is a "hard and fast, black and white requirement of God" as you put it, so are the sacrifices. However, the Prophets tell us repeatedly that Adonai does not accept a sacrifice without a proper heart.
In this tradition Paul tells us that what is important is becoming a new creation. In Galations he is talking to a situation in which circumcision was being used improperly. It was being used as a proof of salvation and some have argued required more than the Scriptures required. In this context circumcision is not only not required by Ha Torah, but is a violation, in the same way that the sacrifices Isaiah is talking about are a violation of Ha Torah.

That is why Paul does not say they are violating Ha Torah by not being circumcised under those circumstances. These circumstances are the focus of this letter. Anyone who keeps any law in order to be saved has not kept the law at all. Those who have been saved throughout the ages(old and new testiment) knew this.

Sounds good, but you got one little problem. God said to make their sacrifices right, not stop doing them. In Isaiah, God says stop making 'meaningless' sacrifices, not stop making sacrifices altogether. IOW, make your sacrifices right. Contrast that with Paul who plainly says not to be circumcised with no conditions attached. He does not say, "don't get circumcised until your heart is right." It's not even implied.

So what do you believe? Was God telling the Israelites, "stop making your required sacrifices, your hearts aren't right." Or was he telling them, "make your required sacrifices acceptable by changing your hearts."? The answer is obvious. And it is in stark contrast to what Paul told the Galatians.

And in case you think the sacrifices were not 'required'...

"8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). (Heb. 10:8)





quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, how does one know which parts of the Scriptures are being spoken by Adonai and when?

By discerning the whole counsel of scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And acting on what you (think) you now know. Experience seems to be the ultimate discerner of truth (Heb. 5:14). John 7:17 illustrates the principle. It's really not that hard to understand how we learn the truth. I've related to God through a sense of law before. That's how I 'tested' his will concerning that and learned the truth.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Eli is not Levi. There are many Cohens to this day, so that promise still applies. Some have argued the Yeshua is a Levite, but let's let that go for now. Yeshua's priesthood does not negate the levitical priesthood, nor is the levitical priesthood a brief interuption. Yeshua's priesthood is superior. That is levitical priests are subject to Yeshua the Cohen Ha Gadol.

The promise was to Levi and his descendants. The literal Levitical priesthood was in fact replaced by the superiority of Jesus's priesthood. If a Levite believes, he will indeed minister before God in a kind of priesthood just like the rest of us believers, but the literal promise to Levi ended and was replaced with a better promise.


Scripture, please.

"..."This is what the LORD says: 'Did I not clearly reveal myself to your father's house when they were in Egypt under Pharaoh? 28 I chose your father out of all the tribes of Israel to be my priest, to go up to my altar, to burn incense, and to wear an ephod in my presence...

29 Why do you scorn my sacrifice and offering that I prescribed for my dwelling? Why do you honor your sons more than me by fattening yourselves on the choice parts of every offering made by my people Israel?'
30 "Therefore the LORD, the God of Israel, declares: 'I promised that your house and your father's house would minister before me forever.' But now the LORD declares: 'Far be it from me!" (1 Samuel 2:27-30)

Don't be confused about the different duties of the Levites. A descendant of the tribe of Levi will never hold the office of High Priest again. Jesus has that job now. And thank God for it. He does it a lot more effectively than mere men have done it.



Bluethread -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (8/28/2008 8:02:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...In a biblical society, who has authority to administer justice and mercy?

"...select capable men from all the people—men who fear God, trustworthy men who hate dishonest gain—and appoint them as officials over thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens. 22 Have them serve as judges for the people at all times..." (Exodus 18:21-22)

If memory serves me correctly, the witness to someone indulging open idol worship is the time when the one bringing the accusation is to be the first in executing the death penalty upon that person. Apart from that, I'm not convinced everyone could go around carrying out the prescribed penalties for sin found in the law. Who would want to do that anyway? How can we expect mercy if we ourselves do not give mercy to those found in the wrong? In general, judgement belonged to the authorities appointed to carry out that judgement.


Good, it appears you are getting an idea of how grace works in a Torah observant society. However, that is not my question. Who has authority to administer justice and mercy in what you believe to be a biblical society today?



quote:

Required--absolutely required. Same difference to me. No suggestion was intended that one is different from the other. Required is required if one insists on relating through a sense of law.


Required for a particular purpose and absolutely required are different things. It is absolutely required for us to accept Yeshua's sacrifice for us to come before Adonai. It is required that we be circumcised if we wish to be identified with Adonai's people. If on were to notice a man was uncircumcised, one could fairly safely presume he is not Torah observant. However, one can not tell what Adonai will say at the final judgement regarding that man.



quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
True, circumcision is required for observance of Pesach and the Covenant. However, as we know obserance of Pesach and the Covenant is on outward expression of the inward reality.


The law did not make any stipulations that you only do it if your heart is right. It was required to stay in covenant with God. Period. (Of course it wasn't the only requirement).


If your heart is not right it doesn't matter, one are lost even if he is circumcised. Therefore, in that case circumision means nothing.



quote:

But this grace you talk about was not guaranteed under the time of the law. You had nothing to base a guarantee on that God would be gracious to you or not if you were guilty of a 'sin unto death' according to the law. David was shown grace. The proverbial Sabbath breaker of Numbers 15(?)...well, you know how that ended. He did not see God's grace--the grace that was not available to either him or David under the law, but could only come from outside of the law.


You don't know that Adonai was not gracious to the man gathering wood. Socially, he was executed. But, Adonai did not say he was not saved.

David recieved a meaure of grace, but he was deprived of his son. In both cases they were judged by Adonai. In fact, it was the direct word of Adonai that convicted both of these men and gave out the sentence. The written law was only refered to. The written Torah is representation of Adonai. It is Adonai we worshgip not the written Torah.



quote:

It's amazing to me how you relegate laws that have stiff penalties like being 'cut off' and 'put to death' as optional and not required. Just so you and others don't use this argument anymore, let it be understood we all know we have complete and total freedom to do anything we want in this life (slap your boss. Blow your brains out). That does not make those things 'not required'.

If you want to achieve a goal and someone has specified what you must do to achieve that goal then those things become 'required'--plain and simple. From now on this is the only definition of 'required' I will entertain in this thread. God once said you will die if you do this or that. So for someone who wants to stay alive you had to obey to achieve that goal. But that simply isn't true anymore in regard to some things. As proof we all know you will neither die physically nor spiritually if you do not observe a literal Sabbath. God's voice has indeed changed. What was once required to obtain a certain goal is now no longer required to obtain that same goal.


Gen 2:16 "And the Lord God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.'"

If everything in the written Torah is a hard and fast rule and grace is a "new testiment" concept, why didn't we die immediately in the garden. The death penalty is your absolute hard and fast example. Also, why was Cain not killed immediately, in fact he was assured he would not be killed.

We now have three examples where Adonai showed grace in the case of a commandment that required the death penalty in Ha Torah. Shall we continue? The only difference I see is in how man has chosen to administer Ha Torah. Sorry, our administration of Ha Torah recorded in the Tanach(old testiment) is not much better. So, what's the difference?



quote:

Sounds good, but you got one little problem. God said to make their sacrifices right, not stop doing them. In Isaiah, God says stop making 'meaningless' sacrifices, not stop making sacrifices altogether. IOW, make your sacrifices right. Contrast that with Paul who plainly says not to be circumcised with no conditions attached. He does not say, "don't get circumcised until your heart is right." It's not even implied.


It is implied by the context, which is about the basis of salvation. The Judaizers were requiring it for salvation. There is a little problem with your arguement. Not only do you believe circumcision is not required as you define it, but sacrifices would not be required either, even if it were possible to do them properly. Yet you try to make a distinction simply for this point, which you would have to reverse to make your underlying premise.

quote:

So what do you believe? Was God telling the Israelites, "stop making your required sacrifices, your hearts aren't right." Or was he telling them, "make your required sacrifices acceptable by changing your hearts."? The answer is obvious. And it is in stark contrast to what Paul told the Galatians.

And in case you think the sacrifices were not 'required'...

"8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). (Heb. 10:8)


I believe the prophets were telling them to make them with a right heart. However, the penalties for not making sacrifices are enforced directly by
Adonai or by the natural systems He put in place. Circumcision is to be enforced by judcial process.

Heb. 10:8 exemplifies my point about the proper keeping of Ha Torah. Though, they made sacrifices according to the letter of the written Torah, Adonai rejected them because they were not made in accordance with Ha Torah(the true nature of Adonai).



quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, how does one know which parts of the Scriptures are being spoken by Adonai and when?

By discerning the whole counsel of scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And acting on what you (think) you now know. Experience seems to be the ultimate discerner of truth (Heb. 5:14). John 7:17 illustrates the principle. It's really not that hard to understand how we learn the truth. I've related to God through a sense of law before. That's how I 'tested' his will concerning that and learned the truth.


And I have lived in the confusion of the "practical" advice of those who base there beliefs primarily on the teachings of Paul. Such advice was anything but practical. It was only by discerning the whole counsel of scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit that I was able to discern a truly practical lifestyle. That's how I 'tested' his will concerning that and learned the truth. So, you see the same Spirit appears to have lead us to two different versions of the truth. Is the message for each of us different? If not stating that the spirit is the clear arbitrator leaves us arguing, "Who has the real Spirit of Adonai?"



quote:


The promise was to Levi and his descendants. The literal Levitical priesthood was in fact replaced by the superiority of Jesus's priesthood. If a Levite believes, he will indeed minister before God in a kind of priesthood just like the rest of us believers, but the literal promise to Levi ended and was replaced with a better promise.

Scripture, please.

"..."This is what the LORD says: 'Did I not clearly reveal myself to your father's house when they were in Egypt under Pharaoh? 28 I chose your father out of all the tribes of Israel to be my priest, to go up to my altar, to burn incense, and to wear an ephod in my presence." (1 Samuel 2:27-28)

This says Eli was a Cohan, it doesn't say the levitical priesthood was totally done away with.



quote:

Don't be confused about the different duties of the Levites. A descendant of the tribe of Levi will never hold the office of High Priest again. Jesus has that job now. And thank God for it. He does it a lot more effectively than mere men have done it.


That's what I just said, Yeshua is the Cohan Ha Godal(High Priest). Adonai has always directed the minisry of the Levites including the Cohan Ha Godal and He will continue as the Cohan Ha Godal, when Yeshua returns, unless He does clearly change it then.



SpongeBlog -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (8/28/2008 9:35:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog

Justice is getting exactly what you deserve (nothing more/ nothing less). Mercy is not getting what you deserve. And grace is getting something you don't deserve.

God's justice is made known through the law. His mercy and grace were made known to us in Jesus Christ.

"...the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17)


This is a simple literal interpretation of the passage. The two are not mutually exclusive. This verse follows and clarifies (John 1:14). "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Ha Torah was revealed to use through the writings of Moshe and the grace and truth of Ha Torah, of which Moshe's writings are a incomplete representation, were made clear to us through Yeshua Ha Meshiach, Ha Torah in the flesh.

Blue, you're back pedaling to safer ground. You know I won't argue with a generalized statement like this.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the reason it's important for you to believe that Jesus is literally the words of Torah manifested in flesh is that it keeps all the commands of the law active and alive forever and ever.

Sorry, but I don't believe my OT is an active and living entity now seen in the person of Christ. They are words recorded for us to read, and Christ is the person who spoke those words, and who became visible to the world during his time here on earth.

I don't like Jewish mysticism. Words do not have substance and actual existence. The person or spirit who speaks them does. That's as far as I'll go with the understanding of Jesus being the word of God.





quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:

No. I see Torah as the measure of God's right and true justice. If you look at the definitions I provided you'll see justice is what you deserve for an offense. There's nothing merciful about that. But if I am released from the just penalty of the law, that is mercy.


The written Torah records many examples of grace, so to see it as a series of cold hard regulations is to ignore Ha Ruach Adonai(The Spirit of Adonai).

This is why you'll have to start speaking English. I know you want to key off special meaning that can only be fully conveyed in the original language, but since I don't speak that language you'll have to communicate that meaning to me in English.

Now, in English...I see grace in the recorded history of the Israelites, the OT. I see God's justice established in the written laws and stipulations set forth by God. I do not see the provision to be released from the penalty attached to capital offenses of those laws and stipulations. As far as I can recall, any mercy a person received for these capital offenses during the time of the law did not come from the law (the list of rules and punishments) itself.

The law (list of rules and punishments) made no provision to released from it's own penalties regarding several capital offenses. The law is not the source of mercy. God is that source, above and beyond and outside of the law. The law is not where you go to get mercy. That's why Jesus came to this earth. The ministry of the law condemned men. The ministry of the Spirit saves men. And not by now enabling them to keep the letter of the law, but by declaring a person righteous apart from any work, good or bad. That's mercy. The law hardly does this for a person. In fact it does the exact opposite.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...when Adonai is gracious to us He does so in accordance with Ha Torah, because He is Ha Torah.

Show me where David was shown mercy according to the list of rules and punishments in the law. He committed two capital offenses and did not receive the punishment due him according to the law. What provision for mercy was there in the law that set David free?



Odeliya -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (8/28/2008 10:07:00 PM)

quote:

True, but misinterpretation almost always comes down to not discerning the Spirit. The Spirit is the ultimate determining factor in whether one will properly discern the will of God. Hundreds of years of the reign of the law prove what I'm saying. That's why God had to send the ministry of the Holy Spirit. The thing we couldn't see in the law was not the ceremonial aspects of the law, it was the aspect of being a changed person that loves unconditionally like God does (pagans don't love unconditionally like God).
Oh,thanks for bringing it up.

Unconditional love is actually the only kind of Love there is. The conditional love is not love but a trade, a contract, parties exchange such and such behavior for such and such goods, benefits, etc.
Confusion of those terms is one reason why successful divorce attorneys can afford to lead such comfortable lifestyles. For unlike true love, conditional one fails in overwhelming majority of cases.

For that matter same is with friendship, for the true one , as defined by Jesus, is unconditional.
Conditional friend is not a friend, but an (usually temporary) ally. That is why I deny Judaism and very afraid of excessive flirting with the Law. De facto it always dangerously close to basically "buying" , earning salvation.

God is not in the business of selling salvation though :)



SpongeBlog -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (8/28/2008 11:13:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...it appears you are getting an idea of how grace works in a Torah observant society.

The list of laws and punishments is not mercy. That's justice. Being released from those punishments, that's mercy.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
However, that is not my question. Who has authority to administer justice and mercy in what you believe to be a biblical society today?

Rulers, leaders, those in authority, set apart to perform such a function. And not only that; each one of us has some responsibility according to the authority we have in our relationships (I can spank my kids, but I can't spank yours).





quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Required for a particular purpose and absolutely required are different things. It is absolutely required for us to accept Yeshua's sacrifice for us to come before Adonai. It is required that we be circumcised if we wish to be identified with Adonai's people.

I can't tell if you're back pedaling or blowing smoke. Circumcision was tantamont to sacrifice under the law. Both were required to be in covenant with God. Neither is required today. Jesus is the sacrifice, and the Holy Spirit is the circumcision that fufills and guarantees the covenant between us and God, effectively replacing the literal requirements established by the law, but fulfilling the requirements of the law nevertheless. The voice of God has changed regarding both of these things. Only a dishonest person would not admit that these things do not hold any power whatsoever over whether we are in covenant with God or not today. And it's equally dishonest to suggest that they meant little in regard to whether one was in covenant with God under the law.

My point is, it is no longer required to be literally circumcised to be in covenant with God. Was God lying when he said to Abraham that he must be circumcised or he would be in violation of the covenant and be cutoff? Would you dare say those exact words to someone today? Are uncircumcised people who believe in violation of the covenant because of their uncircumcision, or does it not matter anymore, as Paul says?

You have only two choices here. Either circumcision is just as important now as it was then, or it is not. So which is it? But before you answer, just remember that during the time of the law you were not in covenant with God if you were not literally circumcised, whether you believed or not. Don't assume I'm saying the opposite, that if you are circumcised you will be in covenant with God. I'm not saying that.





quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...one can not tell what Adonai will say at the final judgement regarding that man.

How are you missing this? Paul says it counts for nothing toward salvation or showing yourself to be saved. And that God does not show his favor because we obey the law, but rather that we believe. Now I know 'believing' automatically equates to Torah observance for you, but how can Paul be saying 'believing' means Torah observance when he directly contrasts it with law observance in Galatians?

Some things in Torah do not have to be observed literlly anymore. Animal sacrifice alone is proof of that. And since we know this beyond a shadow of a doubt, the argument that all of Torah is still to be observed because none of it has changed from being literal is not a valid argument. Remember that's the point of all this.





quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...If your heart is not right it doesn't matter, one are lost even if he is circumcised. Therefore, in that case circumision means nothing.

That's not the point. If your heart is right does circumcision matter anymore? Come on, Blue, you know the honest answer to this. Nobody could be in covenant with God if they did not get circumcised in the flesh under the law whether they believed or not. Paul says it doesn't matter. How much more of a contrast between what the law required and what Paul says do we need to prove God's voice has changed in regard to circumcision?

God's voice, his instructions do change. You can't defend literal law keeping with the argument that God's voice never changes.





quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:

But this grace you talk about was not guaranteed under the time of the law. You had nothing to base a guarantee on that God would be gracious to you or not if you were guilty of a 'sin unto death' according to the law. David was shown grace. The proverbial Sabbath breaker of Numbers 15(?)...well, you know how that ended. He did not see God's grace--the grace that was not available to either him or David under the law, but could only come from outside of the law.


You don't know that Adonai was not gracious to the man gathering wood. Socially, he was executed. But, Adonai did not say he was not saved.

I knew you would go here, because it's the only way to get away from the truth that the law was not the source of grace for either one of them. But to gaurd your argument, you have to suggest the Sabbath breaker received grace in another form, and in an unverifiable way at that. What provision of the law guraranteed that the Sabbath breaker would receive mercy upon his death?





quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...The written Torah is representation of Adonai. It is Adonai we worshgip not the written Torah.

Me too. That's why I don't observe some things literally in the written law. Surely you can see that what you are saying is what I've been saying all along. The old law and the Spirit of God are not the same thing.





quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Gen 2:16 "And the Lord God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.'"

If everything in the written Torah is a hard and fast rule and grace is a "new testiment" concept, why didn't we die immediately in the garden. The death penalty is your absolute hard and fast example. Also, why was Cain not killed immediately, in fact he was assured he would not be killed.

So tell me. What law gave mercy to the people in these examples? The grace we see in the OT is the grace of God himself, not the grace of law (as if there is such a thing).



quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...We now have three examples where Adonai showed grace in the case of a commandment that required the death penalty in Ha Torah. Shall we continue?

Right, God showed grace, not the law. Even you're making the contrast between the commandment that rightly condemns (justice) and the mercy of God apart from the commandment. They were condemned by the requirement. They were not shown mercy by that same commandement. That mercy came from somewhere outside of the commandment that condemned them. Get it now? The law is not the glorious instrument of mercy you're trying desparately to make it out to be. It's the measure by which all men are rightly condemned and where 'all are held accountable'. The mercy that came to us in the ministry of the Spirit is the glory that surpasses the fading glory of the law. Surely you know I'm making reference to Paul's discourse in 2 Cor. 3.





quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:

Don't be confused about the different duties of the Levites. A descendant of the tribe of Levi will never hold the office of High Priest again. Jesus has that job now. And thank God for it. He does it a lot more effectively than mere men have done it.


That's what I just said, Yeshua is the Cohan Ha Godal(High Priest). Adonai has always directed the minisry of the Levites including the Cohan Ha Godal and He will continue as the Cohan Ha Godal, when Yeshua returns, unless He does clearly change it then.

Let me make this more clear.

We will never have another Levite as a High Priest. God covenanted with Levi and installed him and his descendants as the line of High Priests to minister before the Lord:

"And you will know that I have sent you this admonition so that my covenant with Levi may continue," says the LORD Almighty. 5 "My covenant was with him, a covenant of life and peace, and I gave them to him; this called for reverence and he revered me and stood in awe of my name. 6 True instruction was in his mouth and nothing false was found on his lips. He walked with me in peace and uprightness, and turned many from sin.

7 "For the lips of a priest ought to preserve knowledge, and from his mouth men should seek instruction—because he is the messenger of the LORD Almighty. 8 But you have turned from the way and by your teaching have caused many to stumble; you have violated the covenant with Levi," says the LORD Almighty. 9 "So I have caused you to be despised and humiliated before all the people, because you have not followed my ways but have shown partiality in matters of the law." (Malachi 2:4-9)



This covenant with Levi has been replaced with the new covenant made with Jesus, the High Priest of that covenant. Hebrews makes this very clear:

11If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. 13He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17For it is declared:
"You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek."
18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:
"The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
'You are a priest forever.' " 22Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. (Heb. 7:11-22)



"6But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

... 13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete..." (Hebrews 8:6-7,13)



bob97 -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (8/29/2008 12:26:11 AM)

Hi LBolt...

Christ came as savior to Israel but they rejected Him. Why did they reject Him…because they were blinded to the Glory of Christ when reading the law as given by Moses.

2 Corinthians 3:13-15 ( KJV ) 13And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.


When judgment comes they will be condemned by the words of Moses because Moses did foretell the coming of Christ (Deuteronomy 18:15-18,)

Much more could be said regarding this but this is my interpretation in a nut shell.

Bob



LBolt -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (8/29/2008 1:24:35 PM)

You are deeeep!! LOL

The correlation I see was that if they did not believe Moshe's words (Ha Torah, who prophesied of the Moshiach being like Moses...) how could not believe His words. Yahushua is the "Word made flesh."

If Moshe was inspired by Yah to pen the Torah and Yahushua is the Torah in the embodiment of human flesh...if they reject Moshe's words then they will reject Mosiach's words.

When questioned about the greatest commandment, Mosiach quoted and stated the Shema (Deut. 6:4), which is probably the most important prayer and Scripture to the Hebrew people.

The "You have heard it said that you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy..." was a Torah teaching. Question where is this found in the Torah? I'm still looking for it, Bob97 or anyone...do you know where this Scripture is found? I think the Moshiach was comparing popular Essene teaching which was not God's Word and rightly interpreting Exodus (Shemot) 23:4-5. He was simply telling His disciples that they were to love their enemies and let Yah take care of or mete out justice.

If this is in the TaNaKH please point this out, Thanks!!



Lapidoth -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (8/29/2008 2:06:02 PM)

Lev. 19:18
. . . . "but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: . . . ."

Deut. 23:3-6
(v.6)
"Thou shalt not seek their peace nor their prosperity
all thy days for ever."

That was from my KJ Study Bible with Strongs.
Referenced off of Matt. 5:43


Luke 6:27
"But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies,
do good to them which hate you."

Romans 12:19
. . . . for it is written, VENGEANCE IS MINE; I WILL REPAY,
saith the Lord. [Dt. 32:35]



LBolt -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (8/29/2008 2:32:13 PM)

It is my ununderstanding that He was talking about an Essene teaching which says," bear unremitting hatred towards all men of ill repute...to leave it to pursue wealth and mercenary gain..." The Dead Sea scrolls reveal a lot about this sect and even the teachings of the Moshiach.

This is not Torah, Yah always taught were to love our enemies. The verse in Deut 23 also said that the Ammonite/Moabite prohibition against being in the congregation of Yah was only until the 10 generation. Incidentally, Dawid had Moabite blood. Was he considered an enemy?



Lapidoth -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (8/29/2008 3:14:38 PM)

So it looks like he was referring to what we would
call outside sources? Interesting.

I haven't read the DSS, I've always assumed they
were the OT.



Odeliya -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (8/29/2008 3:32:26 PM)

quote:

This has always been the concept that has separated the sheep from the goats. The Spirit of Adonai has always been with those who truly serve Him.


Would you elaborate what “truly serve him” means? One can do Torah to the letter and still remain unsaved, and have no Spirit within him.As the evidence of Torah observant Jews that at the same time also reject Jesus clearly testifies.

Even though I‘ve met Messianics insisting that modern day non-christian,(non messianic )Jews are actually saved. yeah right..[:D] "If it was actually true it would be really good news," as grandma said when gr.papa announced he quits his nightly shots of vodka and gambling.


PS. Gents, i owe you Sabbath answers on another thread, i know. Not ignoring it, i will, I promise.



LBolt -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (8/29/2008 4:45:13 PM)

The Essenes was another sect at that time. They were a strict ascetic group. They held to the teaching of "love your neighbor/ hate your enemy." Yahshua taught against this and so does the TaNaKH. They had some good teachings, though...



SpongeBlog -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (8/30/2008 10:30:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I have lived in the confusion of the "practical" advice of those who base there beliefs primarily on the teachings of Paul. Such advice was anything but practical. It was only by discerning the whole counsel of scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit that I was able to discern a truly practical lifestyle. That's how I 'tested' his will concerning that and learned the truth.
So, you see the same Spirit appears to have lead us to two different versions of the truth. Is the message for each of us different? If not stating that the spirit is the clear arbitrator leaves us arguing, "Who has the real Spirit of Adonai?"

It's not a matter of 'Spirit' only, or 'word' only. We discern God's will by both. The Bible is very clear on how we can tell who has the 'real Spirit of Adonai'. And it tells us what truly 'availeth much'. And it is that message that I find so refreshing and liberating because it needs no interpretation, leaves no confusion, and causes no divisions because it cannot be misunderstood. It can be rejected, but it cannot be misunderstood.

And best of all, everything else (what day we should go to church on, whether or not to be circumcised, and so on...) comes in a distant second to what really matters with God. When we concentrate on what really matters we are lifted out of the contentions and strifes of meaningless doctrinal and theological debates and can be the people God set us free to be.

I'm not here to defend my own version of doctrines and debates. I'm here to help people understand they need to abandon the perceived significance of those things and concentrate on what really counts. Anyone who does that and sets their heart on what really counts will not be disappointed or ashamed on the Day of Jesus's return.

Blue, it's all about character, not our external worship procedures. Character is how we can tell who truly has his Spirit. Circumcision, Feasts, Sabbaths, and sacrifices count for nothing and accomplish nothing. The mainline Christian church that failed you and many others has their own version of these things, and their's is just as deceiving and misleading as your's are. Those are not the things that epitomize the productive and practical Christian life. Don't be deceived. This is what the scriptures say about the 'practical' life of lawful procedures and ceremonies:

"6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." (Gal. 5:6)

The Spirit confirms the truth of this to the heart of the believer.

"18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us." (1 John 3:18-24)

We learn from these passages that the 'practical' life of love means action, not words. And we learn that doing this shows that we belong to the truth (IOW, are saved). Furthermore, it is this kind of life that moves God's hand on our behalf. And on top of it all, the Spirit gives the confirmation of our 'knowing'. No interpretations needed. Just plain black and white words.


" 7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
13We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit." (1 John 4:7-13)

Love is the reality of the Spirit within us. That's how we discern the Spirit. The Spirit is recognized by the fruit it produces. And that fruit is love, and all the various manifestations of love. The wisdom of the Spirit is shown through your character, not your external worship. Knowledge about Feasts, and Sabbaths, and so on is not what shows a person has wisdom and knowledge.

" 13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness." (James 3:13-18)


As believers, we all have a responsibility to show ourselves approved by God. IOW, we all the responsibility to justify ourselves before God and men by how we live. This is not justification unto salvation, this is justifying the truth we claim we have. Peace, hope, and assurance come to the person who shows themselves approved by God and justify the truth in them through a life of active godly love. Peter tells us the deeds that give us assurance of our salvation and make our election sure (to us and those around us) are the godly qualities of the Spirit:

"...make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:5-11)


"...land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure." (Heb. 6:8-12)


"Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19We love because he first loved us. 20If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother." (1 John 4:16-21)


The scriptures are very, very clear. The life we are to live is the life of godly deeds of love by the Spirit of God. That is how we know we are saved and are living a life that is pleasing to God--the life he commands us to live now that we are saved. It's a mistake to put our confidence in works of the law, like circumcision, thinking that's how we show ourselves as belonging to God.

With all this being true, what kind of life should we be nurturing; a life of godly love, or a life of following outward ceremonial procedures and regulations? Which one does the Bible say pleases God, moves the hand of God on our behalf, gives us a life of peace, and gives us the assurance of our salvation? It's pretty clear what 'practical' works we all are to be preparing to offer up to God. We need to abandon these ridiculous denominational wranglings and devote ourselves to what really counts so we'll all be prepared to meet Jesus when he returns. I'm convinced this is the only message that will unify the Body of Christ the way he wants us to be. Sadly, this truth is not to be found in either the mainline or messianic churches. You haven't found the truth, you've simply added to the confusion of a spirit-less church. I'm not being mean. I'm sincerely speaking the truth in love.



Bluethread -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (8/30/2008 4:11:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

Ha Torah was revealed to use through the writings of Moshe and the grace and truth of Ha Torah, of which Moshe's writings are a incomplete representation, were made clear to us through Yeshua Ha Meshiach, Ha Torah in the flesh.


Blue, you're back pedaling to safer ground. You know I won't argue with a generalized statement like this.


No I'm trying to find the point at which we last agreed, so we can get on the same track. As long as our permises are different, we can not expect our conclusions to be the same.

quote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the reason it's important for you to believe that Jesus is literally the words of Torah manifested in flesh is that it keeps all the commands of the law active and alive forever and ever.


This is precisely what I am talking about. I am not one who believes in the simple literal interpretation of Scripture. Nor do I see the written Torah as perfect or eternal. It is merely a representation of Adonai as He interacts with us.

quote:

Sorry, but I don't believe my OT is an active and living entity now seen in the person of Christ. They are words recorded for us to read, and Christ is the person who spoke those words, and who became visible to the world during his time here on earth.


I too do not believe your "OT" is an active and living entity. As you say, that book in your hands is just words recorded for us to read. However, (Heb 4:12) "(T)he Word of God is living and active." The written Torah is just a simplistic representation of The Word(Ha Torah) as are all of the Scriptures. We use the written Torah, as guided by Adonai's Spirit, to discern Ha Torah(Yeshua) as Yochanan(John) shows us in the beginning of his History of Yeshua.

quote:

I don't like Jewish mysticism. Words do not have substance and actual existence. The person or spirit who speaks them does. That's as far as I'll go with the understanding of Jesus being the word of God.


Your last is not a reasonable paragraph, it is a series of sentences that seem to contradict rather that clarify one another. Words represent concepts and those concepts can be made into things and activities that have substance and actual existence. Adonai spoke Ha Torah and that concept of His interaction with man was given substance and actual existence when Yeshua(Adonai) became flesh(man) and interacted with us as a man. This is a rational greek argument not "Jewish mysticism". The premise of the argument, (Joh 1:14) "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." may be Jewish mysticism. Do you believe it is?



quote:

Now, in English...I see grace in the recorded history of the Israelites, the OT. I see God's justice established in the written laws and stipulations set forth by God. I do not see the provision to be released from the penalty attached to capital offenses of those laws and stipulations. As far as I can recall, any mercy a person received for these capital offenses during the time of the law did not come from the law (the list of rules and punishments) itself.

The law (list of rules and punishments) made no provision to released from it's own penalties regarding several capital offenses. The law is not the source of mercy. God is that source, above and beyond and outside of the law. The law is not where you go to get mercy. That's why Jesus came to this earth. The ministry of the law condemned men. The ministry of the Spirit saves men. And not by now enabling them to keep the letter of the law, but by declaring a person righteous apart from any work, good or bad. That's mercy. The law hardly does this for a person. In fact it does the exact opposite.


The reason you see no grace in "the law" is that you insist on interpreting it as the simple literal written words on a page. Adonai(God), in His mercy, has attempted to continue the conversation we had in the garden. He did this by giving us a language which we could use to speak to Him. A limited representation of that language is "the law". Once we come to understand one another, the language we use may not be important, but now you can not understand what I am saying unless we speak in English. I believe it is the same with us and Adonai(God). If we do not communicate in the language Adonai has given us, "the law", we miss some of what He is saying to us.




quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...when Adonai is gracious to us He does so in accordance with Ha Torah, because He is Ha Torah.

Show me where David was shown mercy according to the list of rules and punishments in the law. He committed two capital offenses and did not receive the punishment due him according to the law. What provision for mercy was there in the law that set David free?


If you insist, there are provisons in "the list of rules and punishments in the law" regarding cities of refuge and due process. However, again you are looking only at the written law and not the actual law(Adonai) that it is meant to represent. In the USA the government is subject to the constitution. Only the people can overturn or suspend it. This is one of the things Toqueville found to be extremely valuable when men are governing themselves. However, Adonai is not subject to His constitution, He can overturn or suspend it at any time. In the case of David, we see Adonai graciously suspending His constitution and subjecting David to a lesser sentence without due process. Thus, He not only did not give David the punishment dictated by the written law, He also denighed David the rights afforded him by the written law. Though David is provided actual due process with Nathan and Adonai.



quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
However, that is not my question. Who has authority to administer justice and mercy in what you believe to be a biblical society today?


Rulers, leaders, those in authority, set apart to perform such a function. And not only that; each one of us has some responsibility according to the authority we have in our relationships (I can spank my kids, but I can't spank yours).


Which rulers, leaders and those in authority and on what bases. Where does is say you can spank your children? In the state of Washington ones rights regarding ones children are greatly limited. In fact, the state can have them removed from the home based on a simple accusation. I'm not sure this is justice in a biblical society.



quote:

My point is, it is no longer required to be literally circumcised to be in covenant with God. Was God lying when he said to Abraham that he must be circumcised or he would be in violation of the covenant and be cutoff? Would you dare say those exact words to someone today? Are uncircumcised people who believe in violation of the covenant because of their uncircumcision, or does it not matter anymore, as Paul says?


Gen. 15:18 "On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates--"

Gen 17:11 "You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you."

If you will notice Abram was not circumcised until some time after the covenant. As Paul points out Abram was justified apart from the covenant. The covenant and circumcision are just signs of being justified. If one does not wish to bare the signs of the covenant, that one has cut himself off from Adonai's people.

quote:

You have only two choices here. Either circumcision is just as important now as it was then, or it is not. So which is it? But before you answer, just remember that during the time of the law you were not in covenant with God if you were not literally circumcised, whether you believed or not. Don't assume I'm saying the opposite, that if you are circumcised you will be in covenant with God. I'm not saying that.


If you will notice, when you look up the Abrahamic covenant, you will see it refers to blessings and curses, and life in a Torah observant society and not about salvation. Neither circumcision or any of the covenant are adequant for salvation. If one was saved and did not keep the commandments, he was cut off from Adonai's people. Also, today if one is saved and does not keep the commandments he is cut off from Adonai's people. He may very well be saved, but he has cut himself off from Adonai's people.

It is through the Adamic covenant that we are saved. The stipulations of the Abrahamic covenant are merely the means through which Adonai implimented that salvation and communicates to us His true nature so that we can live in accordance with it.



quote:

How are you missing this? Paul says it counts for nothing toward salvation or showing yourself to be saved. And that God does not show his favor because we obey the law, but rather that we believe. Now I know 'believing' automatically equates to Torah observance for you, but how can Paul be saying 'believing' means Torah observance when he directly contrasts it with law observance in Galatians?


Believeing is a work. We are not saved by believing. We are saved by Adonai's grace through faith and that faith isn't even ours it is a gift of Adonai. Now if we live in that faith as we see exemplified in the Scriptures, we will be blessed here on earth.

quote:

Some things in Torah do not have to be observed literlly anymore. Animal sacrifice alone is proof of that. And since we know this beyond a shadow of a doubt, the argument that all of Torah is still to be observed because none of it has changed from being literal is not a valid argument. Remember that's the point of all this.


That is your point. Animal sacrifice can not be observed. That does not mean it should not be observed if it could be.



quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...If your heart is not right it doesn't matter, one are lost even if he is circumcised. Therefore, in that case circumision means nothing.


That's not the point. If your heart is right does circumcision matter anymore? Come on, Blue, you know the honest answer to this. Nobody could be in covenant with God if they did not get circumcised in the flesh under the law whether they believed or not. Paul says it doesn't matter. How much more of a contrast between what the law required and what Paul says do we need to prove God's voice has changed in regard to circumcision?

God's voice, his instructions do change. You can't defend literal law keeping with the argument that God's voice never changes.


Answered above,but in fairness I will repeat it so you can not say I did not answer all of your questions. Yes, circumcision is a sign of the covenant, but salvationnever came through keeping the covenant. Receiving Adonai's blessings comes from keeping the covenant.



quote:

I knew you would go here, because it's the only way to get away from the truth that the law was not the source of grace for either one of them. But to gaurd your argument, you have to suggest the Sabbath breaker received grace in another form, and in an unverifiable way at that. What provision of the law guraranteed that the Sabbath breaker would receive mercy upon his death?


No gaurantee, only a promise. (Ro 4:13) "It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith." (Heb 11:13) "All these people(Adam to Abraham) were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance." So, if the man who collected wood on the Sabbath found grace in the eyes of Adonai and was granted the faith to believe before he died, he was saved, even though he was stoned by Adonai's direct command.



quote:

Me too. That's why I don't observe some things literally in the written law. Surely you can see that what you are saying is what I've been saying all along. The old law and the Spirit of God are not the same thing.


As I have been saying all along, the written law is a representation of Adonai(The True Law). I also do not observe things according to a simple literal interpretation. I just note that Adonai blesses those who live as he directs and I do not see where he has changed those directions. We have made them more difficult on impossible to keep by our actions, But Adonai has not changed them.



So tell me. What law gave mercy to the people in these examples? The grace we see in the OT is the grace of God himself, not the grace of law (as if there is such a thing).

Again, Adonai is The Law. The written word is just a representation of that law. Adonai(The Law) provided a sacrifice from which he took the skins to cover us in the garden. This sacrifice, which we see repeated throughout the Scriptures is a reminder of Adonai's provision, not the provision itself.



quote:

The law is not the glorious instrument of mercy you're trying desparately to make it out to be. It's the measure by which all men are rightly condemned and where 'all are held accountable'.


Yes, but it is also through the written law that Adonai shows us what is expected of us. (Ro 7:7) "Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, 'Do not covet.'" Our using this knowledge as an occasion to sin does not make it unmerciful. Is it not merciful for Adonai to show us His ways so that we may walk in them?



quote:

This covenant with Levi has been replaced with the new covenant made with Jesus, the High Priest of that covenant. Hebrews makes this very clear


The levitical priesthood was inadeqate for salvation. It is a means for doing those things which are a reminder of Adonai's promise. They were not the promise themselves. Again you leave out an important part. Adonai is in the process of implimenting the new covenant and what is that new covenant?

Heb 8:10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." 13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Yes, we will have no need of the written Torah, when Adonai has written the Real Torah on our hearts. The fact that two of us can disagree regarding what Adonai says is proof that that has yet to happen.



Bluethread -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (8/30/2008 11:49:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I have lived in the confusion of the "practical" advice of those who base there beliefs primarily on the teachings of Paul. Such advice was anything but practical. It was only by discerning the whole counsel of scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit that I was able to discern a truly practical lifestyle. That's how I 'tested' his will concerning that and learned the truth.
So, you see the same Spirit appears to have lead us to two different versions of the truth. Is the message for each of us different? If not stating that the spirit is the clear arbitrator leaves us arguing, "Who has the real Spirit of Adonai?"

It's not a matter of 'Spirit' only, or 'word' only. We discern God's will by both. The Bible is very clear on how we can tell who has the 'real Spirit of Adonai'. And it tells us what truly 'availeth much'. And it is that message that I find so refreshing and liberating because it needs no interpretation, leaves no confusion, and causes no divisions because it cannot be misunderstood. It can be rejected, but it cannot be misunderstood.

And best of all, everything else (what day we should go to church on, whether or not to be circumcised, and so on...) comes in a distant second to what really matters with God. When we concentrate on what really matters we are lifted out of the contentions and strifes of meaningless doctrinal and theological debates and can be the people God set us free to be.

I'm not here to defend my own version of doctrines and debates. I'm here to help people understand they need to abandon the perceived significance of those things and concentrate on what really counts. Anyone who does that and sets their heart on what really counts will not be disappointed or ashamed on the Day of Jesus's return.

Blue, it's all about character, not our external worship procedures. Character is how we can tell who truly has his Spirit. Circumcision, Feasts, Sabbaths, and sacrifices count for nothing and accomplish nothing. The mainline Christian church that failed you and many others has their own version of these things, and their's is just as deceiving and misleading as your's are. Those are not the things that epitomize the productive and practical Christian life. Don't be deceived. This is what the scriptures say about the 'practical' life of lawful procedures and ceremonies:

"6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." (Gal. 5:6)

The Spirit confirms the truth of this to the heart of the believer.

"18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us." (1 John 3:18-24)

We learn from these passages that the 'practical' life of love means action, not words. And we learn that doing this shows that we belong to the truth (IOW, are saved). Furthermore, it is this kind of life that moves God's hand on our behalf. And on top of it all, the Spirit gives the confirmation of our 'knowing'. No interpretations needed. Just plain black and white words.


" 7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
13We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit." (1 John 4:7-13)

Love is the reality of the Spirit within us. That's how we discern the Spirit. The Spirit is recognized by the fruit it produces. And that fruit is love, and all the various manifestations of love. The wisdom of the Spirit is shown through your character, not your external worship. Knowledge about Feasts, and Sabbaths, and so on is not what shows a person has wisdom and knowledge.

" 13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness." (James 3:13-18)


As believers, we all have a responsibility to show ourselves approved by God. IOW, we all the responsibility to justify ourselves before God and men by how we live. This is not justification unto salvation, this is justifying the truth we claim we have. Peace, hope, and assurance come to the person who shows themselves approved by God and justify the truth in them through a life of active godly love. Peter tells us the deeds that give us assurance of our salvation and make our election sure (to us and those around us) are the godly qualities of the Spirit:

"...make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:5-11)


"...land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure." (Heb. 6:8-12)


"Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19We love because he first loved us. 20If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother." (1 John 4:16-21)


The scriptures are very, very clear. The life we are to live is the life of godly deeds of love by the Spirit of God. That is how we know we are saved and are living a life that is pleasing to God--the life he commands us to live now that we are saved. It's a mistake to put our confidence in works of the law, like circumcision, thinking that's how we show ourselves as belonging to God.

With all this being true, what kind of life should we be nurturing; a life of godly love, or a life of following outward ceremonial procedures and regulations? Which one does the Bible say pleases God, moves the hand of God on our behalf, gives us a life of peace, and gives us the assurance of our salvation? It's pretty clear what 'practical' works we all are to be preparing to offer up to God. We need to abandon these ridiculous denominational wranglings and devote ourselves to what really counts so we'll all be prepared to meet Jesus when he returns. I'm convinced this is the only message that will unify the Body of Christ the way he wants us to be. Sadly, this truth is not to be found in either the mainline or messianic churches. You haven't found the truth, you've simply added to the confusion of a spirit-less church. I'm not being mean. I'm sincerely speaking the truth in love.


Nice, sermon. Your quotes are all true. However, your conclusions are so general even a member of NMBLA could have said them. Yes, maybe we have both crossed the line a little in discussing the requirements of Ha Torah. However, I have repeatedly stated that keeping of the law saves no one and that I require no one to keep the law as I interpret it. Nor, do I say that one need do anything beyond what the Scriptures say. I only require those within my community to give an account of their beliefs without holding a grudge and they do the same for me. This is one of the examples of the second great commandment as defined in Lev 19.

What is interesting is that we have spent little time talking about what Ha Torah actually says, and much time on whether one should do what it says, whatever that is. Though you have asked me several times what I do and found fault with those actions, I have little or no idea of how you live. This is the problem with the evanglical/charismatic message, it leaves few traces of it's existance once it leaves and provides little guidance with regard to the meat and potatos issues of life other than to fault those who seek to live rightiously before Adonai.

You no doubt believe I should adopt your lifestyle, whatever that is, and that is fine. However, saying I am being ridiculous when I am merely stating what I believe the Scriptures tell me is not really affording me the same privilege is it?

Shaloam, go in peace.



SpongeBlog -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (9/1/2008 10:09:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Yes, we will have no need of the written Torah, when Adonai has written the Real Torah on our hearts. The fact that two of us can disagree regarding what Adonai says is proof that that has yet to happen.

Having the law written on your heart does not mean you will know it verbatim and have no need for the written word. You are making a big mistake in understanding. The passage in Jeremiah does not say we will know all 'about' God. It says we will 'know' God. Big difference. Jeremiah himself tells us what he means when he says we will all 'know the Lord':

"Did not your father have food and drink?
He did what was right and just,
so all went well with him.

16 He defended the cause of the poor and needy,
and so all went well.
Is that not what it means to know me?"
declares the LORD.

17 "But your eyes and your heart
are set only on dishonest gain,
on shedding innocent blood
and on oppression and extortion." (Jeremiah 22:15-17)


And this is exactly what has happened for us in the New Covenant. The intent and purpose of the law (love your neighbor as yourself) has been engraved on our hearts by the Holy Spirit, not the literal verbatim words of the law. We see the fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy among the Thessalonians:

" 9Now about brotherly love we do not need to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love each other." (1 Thess. 4:9)


You see, it isn't about knowing the law verbatim. It's about 'knowing' the heart and mind of God, and understanding his character and what is close to his heart. And both the old and new testaments tell us what that looks like. Read Jeremiah 17. Jeremiah talks about what God will do if the Israelites are obedient to the literal Sabbath (nobody is arguing that God expected a literal observance under the first covenant):

"...if you are careful to obey me, declares the LORD, and bring no load through the gates of this city on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy by not doing any work on it, 25 then kings who sit on David's throne will come through the gates of this city with their officials. They and their officials will come riding in chariots and on horses, accompanied by the men of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, and this city will be inhabited forever." (Jeremiah 17:24-25)

Now flip up to Jeremiah 22...

" 3 This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed. Do no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place. 4 For if you are careful to carry out these commands, then kings who sit on David's throne will come through the gates of this palace, riding in chariots and on horses, accompanied by their officials and their people." (Jeremiah 22:3-4)


Isaiah echos Jeremiah's sentiment.

" 13 "If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the LORD's holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,

14 then you will find your joy in the LORD,
and I will cause you to ride on the heights of the land
and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob."
The mouth of the LORD has spoken. (Isaiah 58:13-14)


Jeremiah and Isaiah are spiritualizing the Sabbath and showing us what it means to really 'know' God and obey his commandments. To refrain from the evil work of our flesh and love our neighbor, doing them no harm, even helping them, is the true Sabbath rest--the one he expects and rewards. That's what really counts and makes the literal observances count for nothing. All this falls right in line with the passages from the NT that I shared in my last post.

God's promise of abundance and blessing is for those who keep that kind of Sabbath, or feast, or whatever. When you 'keep' the law of love you have fulfilled the law. Where does the law make not 'speaking idle words' a literal Sabbath requirement? Isaiah and Jeremiah both are obviously referring to the true spiritual intentions of the Sabbath, the ones that count, above and beyond, and infinately more important than the mere external requirement of the law. The promised blessing is for those who 'know' the heart of God and 'keep the law' by loving others. The NT passages I shared in my last post are just another installment of prophetic words God has handed down to his people through history. This time they are being written on human hearts by the Spirit of God, and not on stone or paper.

I know you'll say that's all well and good, but that doesn't mean we don't have to do the literal requirements of the law anymore. And that's fine, if you want to do that, but the problem is I have yet to meet a literal law keeper who I was convinced understood character as being infinately more important than outward worship of the law, and who weren't deceived into majoring on the minors. To them it's still all about the externals. Externals that have become meaningless in the new covenant as an expression of genuine faith, like circumcision.

The expression of faith God is looking for, now that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit and 'know' the heart and mind of God, is love. Old testament worship procedures and requirements must now take their appropriate place in a distant second place to what really matters now that we truly have the heart and mind of God by the Holy Spirit, and now understand what the externals were only shadowing and preparing us for.

With all this being true, what should we be setting our hearts and minds on? Proper external procedures and timetables (aka, denominational wranglings), or on nurturing the character of Christ in us?



bob97 -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (9/1/2008 10:30:50 AM)

I think the important aspect of God’s laws written in our heart is the fact that our sense of right and wrong (our conscience) has been restored…we don’t have to concentrate on the laws to understand sin. That’s all the laws accomplished…they made people aware of sin.

If our heart has been renewed and we sin, we are convicted and need to repent. We don’t need to go back to the stone to see if we have sinned on not.

Bob



SpongeBlog -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (9/1/2008 10:37:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I have little or no idea of how you live. This is the problem with the evanglical/charismatic message, it leaves few traces of it's existance once it leaves and provides little guidance with regard to the meat and potatos issues of life other than to fault those who seek to live rightiously before Adonai...

I think that I have made it very clear. It's all about the fruit of the Spirit. Having the heart and mind of God--having the intent and purpose of his law written on your heart--means having these impulses at work inside of you every day, every moment of life:

"...the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control..."
(Galatians 5:22-23)


If you obey these impulses at work within you by the Holy Spirit and turn away from the impulses of the flesh, you will be in full compliance with the law of God:

"...Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit." (Galatians 5:23-25)


Paul also details the impulses and deeds of the flesh, the things we are to resist, and which rob us of God's blessing and are signs of our separation from him:

"19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Gal. 5:19-21)


Paul explains a little more in 1 Cor. 13...

" 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." (1 Cor. 13:4-7)


If your daily behavior from the moment you wake up in the morning, until you go to bed at night, is guided by these things, you will do nothing that violates God's will for you. Don't be rude, don't be proud, don't evny, be peaceable, be kind, don't indulge fits of rage, and so on and so on...that is how we live a practical and meaningful life for God. Things like hatred and envy and record-keeping will cause a person to do bad things. Things like kindness, peace, joy, love, patience will cause a person to act like the kind of person God wants us to be.

If you have these truths, these 'rules' engraved on your heart, and you obey them, you will be pleasing to God, and you will live. You will be truly keeping God's laws and commandments and keeping the true 'sign' requirements of the Sabbath and circumcision. The ones that count.



Bluethread -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (9/3/2008 3:33:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog

I know you'll say that's all well and good, but that doesn't mean we don't have to do the literal requirements of the law anymore. And that's fine, if you want to do that, but the problem is I have yet to meet a literal law keeper who I was convinced understood character as being infinately more important than outward worship of the law, and who weren't deceived into majoring on the minors. To them it's still all about the externals. Externals that have become meaningless in the new covenant as an expression of genuine faith, like circumcision.


Maybe that's because of how you define character or maybe I should say don't define chartacter. Of course, understanding who Adonai is and having an ongoing relationship with Him is more important than anything in particular I might do in that relationship, including circumcision. I have said this several times in several ways. If you don't believe me there is nothing I can do for you. You have chosen not to be convinced.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I would like to note something regarding the Levitical priesthood that you have not addressed directly. Last Shabbat, we were discussing the Levitical priesthood and came to the conclusion that there is little for a levitical priest to do without a temple, apart from study and aid in the administration of justice. The levitical tithe was based on the inability of the Levite to provide for himself in Israel because ownership of the land had been distributed among the other tribes. So, without The Temple the special laws with regard to Levites would only be applicable to those Levites living in Israel.
In my opinion, this does not do away with those laws, it just limits how one can keep them. There is some discussion regarding who will minister in the Temple of Yeshua in His kingdom, the Levite or the firstborn, but one must accept the concept of a rebuilt Temple and its administration for this discussion to have any significance.

quote:

The expression of faith God is looking for, now that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit and 'know' the heart and mind of God, is love. Old testament worship procedures and requirements must now take their appropriate place in a distant second place to what really matters now that we truly have the heart and mind of God by the Holy Spirit, and now understand what the externals were only shadowing and preparing us for.


This is also has been a problem in our conversation. You claim to be "sealed with the Holy Spirit and 'know' the heart and mind of God" and therefore insist that any interpretation of a particular passage that is not in agreement with yours is "ridiculous". I on the other hand, if my memory is correct, only state that I do not agree and provide alternate interpretations.

quote:

With all this being true, what should we be setting our hearts and minds on? Proper external procedures and timetables (aka, denominational wranglings), or on nurturing the character of Christ in us?


Again, you set up a dichotomy. As if one's cup must be clean either on the inside or the outside and not both. Of course, one could have a discussion on what constitutes clean, but we are never able to get here because we can not get beyond this dichotomy. You have presented Scriptures and arguments against what you call, "external procedures and timetables" and I have given interpretations and arguments for my views. Sometimes my views are seen as simply "external procedures and timetables" and at other times we have a legitimate difference of opinion. Either way, it is useless to continue rehashing these same points and passages, since you consider alternative interpretations as "ridiculous". So, let's look at your alternative.

quote:

If your daily behavior from the moment you wake up in the morning, until you go to bed at night, is guided by these things, you will do nothing that violates God's will for you. Don't be rude, don't be proud, don't evny, be peaceable, be kind, don't indulge fits of rage, and so on and so on...that is how we live a practical and meaningful life for God. Things like hatred and envy and record-keeping will cause a person to do bad things. Things like kindness, peace, joy, love, patience will cause a person to act like the kind of person God wants us to be.


This sounds familiar. Are you saying these things should be on our hearts, and I should think of them when I sit in my house,and when I walk by the way and when I lie down and when I rise up?

quote:

If you have these truths, these 'rules' engraved on your heart, and you obey them, you will be pleasing to God, and you will live. You will be truly keeping God's laws and commandments and keeping the true 'sign' requirements of the Sabbath and circumcision. The ones that count.


Since you put the word rules in quotes, you must not mean it as it is generally understood. So, what is the accurate word to use when refering to these things? You also refer to true 'sign' requirements that count. Again, you have put the term in quotes. Please, what are these things you refer to if not signs?

Please, try to be direct and brief, I want to be able to follow your lead.



SpongeBlog -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (9/4/2008 1:40:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Maybe that's because of how you define character or maybe I should say don't define chartacter.

I have repeatedly said the fruit of the Spirit, or the fruit of righteousness, is what defines godly character. I am at a loss as to how you do not see these as qualities of a person's character.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Of course, understanding who Adonai is and having an ongoing relationship with Him is more important than anything in particular I might do in that relationship, including circumcision.

I know you understand that. But how does one know they have that relationship? I've been trying to show you what 'knowing' God means according to Jeremiah and hence what is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...This is also has been a problem in our conversation. You claim to be "sealed with the Holy Spirit and 'know' the heart and mind of God" and therefore insist that any interpretation of a particular passage that is not in agreement with yours is "ridiculous". I on the other hand, if my memory is correct, only state that I do not agree and provide alternate interpretations.

Don't take it personally. But I am firmly convinced it is ridiculous to think what day you go to Church on (for instance) is more important than what you do with the rest of your life. Paul explains this using circumcision as the example. Paul says even the person who is uncircumcised and yet obeys the moral laws of behavior will condemn the person who is circumcised but doesn't obey those other laws. Externals count for nothing. That's why I say it's ridiculous to believe those externals are the epitome of what it means to obey God. Many people in many denominations have their opinions of what epitomizes being a Christian. The Bible says being a new creation as defined by the fruit of the Spirit is what epitomizes the Christian experience. Nothing else matters. Offer them up as freewill offerings if you want, but they count for nothing in regard to the requirements of God.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...you set up a dichotomy. As if one's cup must be clean either on the inside or the outside and not both. Of course, one could have a discussion on what constitutes clean, but we are never able to get here because we can not get beyond this dichotomy.

Paul is the one who defends this dichotomy of inside and outside. He said outside things like circumcision are a big fat nothing. He says it's what's inside that counts. Many, many people have their pet 'outward' cleansing procedure that they think matters to God above and beyond what's inside. Many of these people don't even know about the inner cleansing. And how that inner cleansing looks on the outside because, as we know, Jesus said if you clean the inside of the cup, the outside will be clean. I'm arguing for what the outside truly looks like when the inside has been cleaned. And it ain't going to church on Saturday's, or adhering to the OT schedule of Feasts, etc. Godly character is the cleaned up look that we see on the outside of a person who's been cleaned up on the inside, and that ultimately proves they have indeed been cleaned up inside. There are many who are deceived into thinking various external worship techniques are how you prove you've been made clean inside. And in that thinking, many neglect the true measure of the new nature inside. Usually because they don't even know about it, having been indoctrinated in the externals instead of what really counts. This sad fact cuts all across Christendom, not just the literal Torah camp.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread
You have presented Scriptures and arguments against what you call, "external procedures and timetables&qu