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Bluethread -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (9/6/2008 1:37:30 AM)
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ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Maybe that's because of how you define character or maybe I should say don't define chartacter.
I have repeatedly said the fruit of the Spirit, or the fruit of righteousness, is what defines godly character. I am at a loss as to how you do not see these as qualities of a person's character.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Of course, understanding who Adonai is and having an ongoing relationship with Him is more important than anything in particular I might do in that relationship, including circumcision.
I know you understand that. But how does one know they have that relationship? I've been trying to show you what 'knowing' God means according to Jeremiah and hence what is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant. Emphasis mine.
This has been my question to you all along. You say only the lists in Pauls letters give us a clue. I say Pauls lists expound upon Ha Torah giving us an even clearer view of that relationship.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...This is also has been a problem in our conversation. You claim to be "sealed with the Holy Spirit and 'know' the heart and mind of God" and therefore insist that any interpretation of a particular passage that is not in agreement with yours is "ridiculous". I on the other hand, if my memory is correct, only state that I do not agree and provide alternate interpretations.
Don't take it personally. But I am firmly convinced it is ridiculous to think what day you go to Church on (for instance) is more important than what you do with the rest of your life. Paul explains this using circumcision as the example. Paul says even the person who is uncircumcised and yet obeys the moral laws of behavior will condemn the person who is circumcised but doesn't obey those other laws. Externals count for nothing. That's why I say it's ridiculous to believe those externals are the epitome of what it means to obey God. Many people in many denominations have their opinions of what epitomizes being a Christian. The Bible says being a new creation as defined by the fruit of the Spirit is what epitomizes the Christian experience. Nothing else matters. Offer them up as freewill offerings if you want, but they count for nothing in regard to the requirements of God.
I do not believe the fruits and gifts are a complete list, but Paul uses these lists as examples of the characeristics of the Torah observant lifestyle. Yes, even these are as resounding gong or a clanging cymbal without love. However, the lists, whether they be in Ha Torah or Paul's letters give us a view of what love is as through a darkened glass. Many of these things will pass away when we see Adonai face to face, but that had not happened when Paul wrote His letters and I am not sure it has happened yet.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...you set up a dichotomy. As if one's cup must be clean either on the inside or the outside and not both. Of course, one could have a discussion on what constitutes clean, but we are never able to get here because we can not get beyond this dichotomy.
Paul is the one who defends this dichotomy of inside and outside. He said outside things like circumcision are a big fat nothing. He says it's what's inside that counts. Many, many people have their pet 'outward' cleansing procedure that they think matters to God above and beyond what's inside. Many of these people don't even know about the inner cleansing. And how that inner cleansing looks on the outside because, as we know, Jesus said if you clean the inside of the cup, the outside will be clean. I'm arguing for what the outside truly looks like when the inside has been cleaned. And it ain't going to church on Saturday's, or adhering to the OT schedule of Feasts, etc. Godly character is the cleaned up look that we see on the outside of a person who's been cleaned up on the inside, and that ultimately proves they have indeed been cleaned up inside. There are many who are deceived into thinking various external worship techniques are how you prove you've been made clean inside. And in that thinking, many neglect the true measure of the new nature inside. Usually because they don't even know about it, having been indoctrinated in the externals instead of what really counts. This sad fact cuts all across Christendom, not just the literal Torah camp.
I do not believe Paul sees a dichotomy between the internal and the external, but between the Spirit of Adonai and the Spirit of Sin. Your continual returning to terms like "proves", "indoctrinated" and "hard and fast". Nothing we do "proves" anything and just because one chooses to do something does not mean they have been "indoctrinated" or that they are interpreting things in a "hard and fast" manner. When I use the steering wheel to direct my car, I am not proving I can drive the car nor am I indoctrinated that one can only guide ones car with a steering wheel and I do not feel I always must keep both hands on the wheel at 10 and 2. Keeping a firm hand on the steering wheel just makes it easier to keep the car between the lines. Yes, I do not have to stay between the lines, but the people who designed the car and the road assure me that my trip will go better if I do. In the same way if I diligently study Ha Torah, that is Yeshua because the written Torah speaks of Him, and Paul's clarification of it(Him), then Adonai has told me the trip will go much better than if I don't.
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In the New Covenant we are guided more by principles than hard and fast rules, though we certainly have those.
And circumcision and Sabbath keeping were the 'sign' commandments in the old covenant. But even the OT helps us understand that circumcision is really circumcision of the heart. IOW, the true sign of being in covenant with God is not circumcision of the penis, it's circumcision of the heart.
As you just said, this is also how was under what you call the OT. Repeatedly, the prophets tell us that the blood of bulls and goats are not what Adonai is looking for, but a humble and contrite heart.
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It seems to be directly opposed to what God said, but putting to death the sin nature through the circumcision of the Spirit still qualifies as being 'marked' in the flesh seeing as how a godly person is missing the deeds of the flesh.
Here is where you err. Circumcision of the heart does not qualify as being 'marked' in the flesh. Circumcision of the heart is the true sign of the covenant and always has been. Also, flesh and physical are not interchangable terms. Not all physical deeds are fleshly as Yeshua and Paul use the term. The term flesh, it appears to me, is the unguided animal instincts and the desires of self agrandizement and preservation. That is why Yeshua exemplifies the greatest gift, love, by saying greater love has no man than to give his life for his friends. Now giving ones life is a physical act and could be a selfish act. But it need not be and if we do it for the right reasons we become a sweet savor to Adonai. Yeshua and Paul used many more examples of physical acts to guide us into all the truth. If we study, understand and follow those examples we will be blessed. Ha Torah, as clarified and exemplified by Yeshua, is the same. When we study, understand and follow Ha Torah, as clarified and exemplified by Yeshua, we will also be blessed.
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