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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2005 3:44:40 AM
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Chief
Posts: 105
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ces
The law of Moses could not save us, because of our sinful nature. Rom 8.3
Why do some of you insist on trying to do something that cannot be done?
Ces,
The Law of Moses can save man IF he were like Jesus perfect, holy and sinless (but he does not need saving if he were sinless, right?) - the very thrust of Romans regarding our righteousness. Not through our efforts because we are all born under the curse, but by the perfect obedience of Christ to the law we are saved.
Perhaps it is just me but I do not see anybody proposing that we are to follow the law to be saved. If anybody did it might be profitable to point that post out.
However, to continue my post, those who are already justified (under grace) are by the grace of God able to follow and understand the law of God that are written in their hearts.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Ro 6:15, 18 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid...Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
< Message edited by Chief -- 7/22/2005 3:50:06 AM >
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This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2005 1:06:12 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 2133
Joined: 6/8/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan
quote:
I am sorry! I thought I was very clear that I was jesting by mixing the KJV with Hebrew. ORIGINAL: P31W quote:
 You were clear! I was joking back at ya!
Kosher? Hum! I don't think I could follow that if I wanted to. In Miss. the only thing we know about "kosher" are pickles and they don't taste very good.
I follow the "usery" laws!(did I spell that right?)  Most Chrisitans don't but once I discovered it and began to see the wonderful widsom in it I jumped on the bandwagon. As to date we have not suffered any. In fact it's been a way to witness. We are so "strange" that some folks just "have to ask".  Well, I wasn't sure if you meant it or not, because someone else was very serious. I needed to be careful.
I understand what you are saying about eating kosher in MS. My brother lives in Jackson, and I want to go visit him without offending him or my other relatives who live there. it seems that his diet consists of a lot of catfish, and catfish is not kosher! I will have to just go out and buy my own food and hope they understand, I guess!
Eating kosher is really very easy, though -- no big deal -- and it is good for us!
Oh, yes, and I am a woman. Yesterday, I got the announcement that I am going to be a grandma again! My 9th!!! Yayyyyyyy! 
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Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
Looking,waddling, and quacking are not the essence of duckness.
G-d has only one natural-born Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2005 10:05:58 PM
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talmid
Posts: 66
Joined: 5/16/2005
From: IL
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Congrats, sister!!
Hope that baby sticks like velcro (*wink wink from missju*)
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shofar, so good
http://hools.woordpress.com
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2005 10:28:02 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1969
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TennisMenace
However, I follow Torah for the following reasons and not limited to just these:
TM:
Your reasons are most commendable but neither you nor any Messianic Jew today can truly "follow Torah".
Reason? The Temple and its sacrifices do not exist, and Torah is centered on either the Tabernacle or the Temple. The Feasts of the Lord are tied in very closely with the Tabernacle and the Temple also, and so is the land of Israel. So you, in fact, DO NOT FOLLOW TORAH, since you are unable to do so.
Those who follow Torah must either obey it in its entirety or give up their pretense altogether.
As a matter of fact, the apostle Paul completely gave up all claims to following the Torah, because he was following Someone far better than Moses (Phil. 3:1-14).
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2005 10:34:25 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 2133
Joined: 6/8/2005
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<smile>
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
Looking,waddling, and quacking are not the essence of duckness.
G-d has only one natural-born Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2005 11:05:18 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1969
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bobservations
Just how kosher are you folks?
Christ said that unless your heart is "kosher" it won't matter how kosher your dills are, or whether you tithe dill, mint or cumin.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2005 11:10:55 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 2133
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Bob --
Some households decide what is kosher based upon the words of the Bible alone, without any additional writings; some decide based upon the Bible and certain writings by authors they respect; some decide based upon the culture in which they grew up or the one they later embraced. Just as Christians all read the same Bible but interpret it differently, and grasp or disregard certain other books, those who eat kosher determine individually, or by families, what is kosher.
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Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
Looking,waddling, and quacking are not the essence of duckness.
G-d has only one natural-born Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2005 11:18:51 PM
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bobservations
Posts: 940
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What then is your interpretation?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2005 11:26:47 PM
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bobservations
Posts: 940
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Or better yet, since I haven't done a study on food except unclaen animals, what do the 613 laws say about kosher food? I do know that the gravy thing is kosher.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2005 11:54:08 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 2133
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I, personally, eat only those foods that are biblically kosher, but I do not disregard what the ancients have written. They bring both historical and common-sense ideas into play, and they attempt to settle things that may be questioned.
For example, the Bible says not to eat fish that do not develop fins and scales, so I don't; it says not to eat certain poutlry, so I don't; it says not to eat blood, so I don't; it says not to eat snakes, snails, or puppy dog tails, so I don't. It says not to eat bees, but I can eat honey. It says I may eat all my vegies, so I do, except for parsnips my mother-in-law has not cooked.
What I find amuzing, when people ask this, is that they immediately come back and say, "But you DO eat blood if you eat meat! You can't possibly get it all out of meat!" Ha-ha, they think we never thought of that! What they miss is that this is all part of the lesson! Or they say, "No lobster or scallops? You don't know what you're missing!" Yes, I do! They say, "But when you eat honey, there are bee parts in it." I know it! That, too, is part of the lesson.
Or they say, "Haven't you read Acts 15?" I answer, "Yes; have you?" Or they say that the Temple is gone. Oops! I hadn't noticed! Okay. Now, I am being entirely too facetious. But we get this all the time. Rest assured, when we are treated with respect, as others wish to be treated with respect regarding their understanding of the Bible, we answer properly.
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 7/22/2005 11:56:57 PM >
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Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
Looking,waddling, and quacking are not the essence of duckness.
G-d has only one natural-born Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 4:12:31 AM
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talmid
Posts: 66
Joined: 5/16/2005
From: IL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
neither you nor any Messianic Jew today can truly "follow Torah".
Reason? The Temple and its sacrifices do not exist, and Torah is centered on either the Tabernacle or the Temple. The Feasts of the Lord are tied in very closely with the Tabernacle and the Temple also, and so is the land of Israel. So you, in fact, DO NOT FOLLOW TORAH, since you are unable to do so.
Interesting that you say this. Have you said this to any Jews you know? What do you think they'd say? Ask them why they don't sacrifice animals. Actually, for the sake of confusion. I'll go find out. I'm curious too :)
www.jewfaq.org answers this question from, of course, the modern Jewish perspective. It explains why sacrifices are not performed today. Here's a quote:
quote:
http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm
When did Jews stop offering sacrifices, and why?
For the most part, the practice of sacrifice stopped in the year 70 C.E., when the Roman army destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem, the place where sacrifices were offered.
We stopped offering sacrifices because we do not have a proper place to offer them. The Torah specifically commands us not to offer sacrifices wherever we feel like it; we are only permitted to offer sacrifices in the place that G-d has chosen for that purpose. Deut. 12:13-14. It would be a sin to offer sacrifices in any other place.
The last place appointed by G-d for this purpose was the Temple in Jerusalem, but the Temple has been destroyed and a mosque has been erected in the place where it stood. Until G-d provides us with another place, we cannot offer sacrifices.
----
Parts of the rituals involved in the offering of sacrifices were performed exclusively by the kohanim (priests). These rituals were only performed in the Temple in Jerusalem. The procedures could not be performed by anyone else, and could not be performed in any other place. Because the Temple no longer exists, we can no longer offer sacrifices.
So actually, by not offering sacrifices, we're following Torah
just wanted to clean that puppy up.
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shofar, so good
http://hools.woordpress.com
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 8:50:47 AM
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EZ_03
Posts: 77
Joined: 4/13/2005
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fantastic and gracious responses ladies, thank you.
ezra, another note on "not following Torah." there is a promise from our Father in the first part of Deuteronomy 30 that if those in covenant with Him who have been scattered because of disobedience into even the most distant lands will turn back and obey Him with all their hearts, He will restore them.
but using your logic, then God was setting them up for utter failure - you would say they COULD NOT obey Him with all their hearts when out of the land because there would be no Temple or priesthood.
do you feel this was His intent or is there allowance for following the Torah to the best of one's ability when there are circumstances beyond one's control, e.g., Temple destruction in 70 AD? or should those sons of israel referred to in Deuteronomy 30, just give up their pretense altogether," as you say?
when discussing "following Torah" with folks, i do point out that we are following it only to the best of our ability and awareness, with something new learned nearly everyday. we just view each of these commands as a little nugget that reveals something of God's holiness and therefore everything we can implement furthers our understanding of our Father...i don't think any of us would claim to follow it perfectly - that would be absurd.
however, since we are not following it for our justification, we are not seeking perfection, just a walk that is closer and closer to that of our Master.
shalom,
kevin
_____________________________
Open my eyes that I may behold wonderful things from Your Torah. (Psalms 119:18)
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. (Romans 3:31)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 8:53:41 AM
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EZ_03
Posts: 77
Joined: 4/13/2005
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and regarding kosher eating, bob, as stated above there is a world of difference between Scriptural kosher and rabbinic kosher. i think my family eats in similar fashion to those above. as covaan pointed out, this is quite a journey and all "part of the lesson."
shabbat shalom all,
kevin
_____________________________
Open my eyes that I may behold wonderful things from Your Torah. (Psalms 119:18)
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. (Romans 3:31)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 9:12:34 AM
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a-lily
Posts: 60
Joined: 5/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
I, personally, eat only those foods that are biblically kosher, but I do not disregard what the ancients have written. They bring both historical and common-sense ideas into play, and they attempt to settle things that may be questioned.
For example, the Bible says not to eat fish that do not develop fins and scales, so I don't; it says not to eat certain poutlry, so I don't; it says not to eat blood, so I don't; it says not to eat snakes, snails, or puppy dog tails, so I don't. It says not to eat bees, but I can eat honey. It says I may eat all my vegies, so I do, except for parsnips my mother-in-law has not cooked.
What I find amuzing, when people ask this, is that they immediately come back and say, "But you DO eat blood if you eat meat! You can't possibly get it all out of meat!" Ha-ha, they think we never thought of that! What they miss is that this is all part of the lesson! Or they say, "No lobster or scallops? You don't know what you're missing!" Yes, I do! They say, "But when you eat honey, there are bee parts in it." I know it! That, too, is part of the lesson.
Yes this is pretty close to what we do also, as ez said.
quote:
Or they say, "Haven't you read Acts 15?" I answer, "Yes; have you?" Or they say that the Temple is gone. Oops! I hadn't noticed! Okay. Now, I am being entirely too facetious. But we get this all the time. Rest assured,when we are treated with respect, as others wish to be treated with respect regarding their understanding of the Bible, we answer properly.
Amen Sister...I really like your last sentence there. I think i will work on that and not reply to folks who are just trying to stir things with no genuine interest in learning about my faith.
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"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." -Jesus Matthew 5 : 18
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