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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 1:00:27 PM
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rockv12
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
however, since we are not following it for our justification, we are not seeking perfection, just a walk that is closer and closer to that of our Master.
No offense intended against your sincerity, but that seems an awful lot like a child wearing his daddy's old clothes to try to get closer to him instead of actually spending time in activities and conversation with him. IOW, form over substance.
Hmm...but wouldn't honoring the Sabbath bring our walk with the Lord closer to the Master? Isn't remembering the Sabbath and fellowshipping, resting, studying going to bring us closer to God personally? Isn't that what you want?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 1:10:39 PM
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P31W
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quote:
quote:
however, since we are not following it for our justification, we are not seeking perfection, just a walk that is closer and closer to that of our Master.
No offense intended against your sincerity, but that seems an awful lot like a child wearing his daddy's old clothes to try to get closer to him instead of actually spending time in activities and conversation with him. IOW, form over substance.
Sorry Euty! Don't mean to gang up on you but I must ask. Isn't that the same claim folks make about people who tithe?
I know following the law concerning usery (charging believers interest - any interest) has in no way taken me away from the father (pride) rather helped me to see just how much pride I do have. In fact it's hard to do sometimes when people take advantage of you but what it has done for me is the same thing the tithe has done for me. It is taking me deeper into understanding the wisdom of God. It takes me out of myself and allows me to have a very small glimple of what He is doing in this world. It helps me to see the truth about myself in the area of stewardship and helps me to realize that "my" weath and "my" rights are to be put aside. God will both seek revenge when people take advantage of us and the money we don't get is going to be used by those people for the purpose God has in mind. (it may be to help put food on their plates? I don't know)
It was only through the obedience that I began to truly understand more of the Character and Holiness of our God. His wisdom and his true love for His children. It helps me to see the Big Picture and not focus on self and put stock in my power.
< Message edited by P31W -- 7/23/2005 1:14:35 PM >
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 1:20:16 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1957
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quote:
ORIGINAL: talmid
So actually, by not offering sacrifices, we're following Torah 
just wanted to clean that puppy up.
Actually, you didn't clean up that puppy, but exposed the total sham of those (Jews or Messianic Jews) who claim to be "following Torah". The above statement is like saying "We obey Yahweh by disobeying Him", which of course Jews did for several millenia.
Since the Tabernacle and subsequently the Temple were an integral part of the Old Covenant, all sacrifices, feasts and offerings were an absolute necessity. No exceptions were allowed. In fact, the kingdom of Judah went into 70 years of Babylonian captivity because the Jews thought they could simply ignore the law pertaining to the sabbaths of the land, and God gave the land those sabbaths for 490 years of disobedience.
Why have the Jews today not stopped to consider: "What is the reason why there is no Temple and no Ark of the Covenant?" "Why has God prevented us from following Moses and the Old Covenant?"
Since the Old Covenant has been replaced altogether, anyone (Jew or Messianic) who reverts to Moses despises the Law of Christ. That is the reality, and that is why the Temple is now the Church, and all distinctions between Jew and Gentile are contrary to the Law of Christ.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 1:49:03 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
So actually, by not offering sacrifices, we're following Torah
No, that's living as a nation in exile from God and under His condemnation and judgment.
That is it exactly, IMO. The loss of the Temple and the whole system was God's judgment and condemnation on a people who had missed the mark.
BTW, in general I greatly admire Saul of Tarsus. He was passionate about his religion and he truly and sincerely believed he was accomplishing the will of God by persecuting the Church, which threatened the whole of Judaism as he knew it. While sincere, he was wrong. He then spent a good part of his remaining life warring with those who tried to drag the Church back under the inadequate OT system.
_____________________________
-Euty
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 2:15:03 PM
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bzirk
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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Euty, Jimbo, Ezra, Gamibt, Jisaph and some others I'm going blank on,
I commend you, and I pray for you that you would continue to have the heart for these discussions.
I know I've previously shared my experiences with "Messianic Christians," but I have to say again that sadly, what I see happening over and over and over again is an inevitable renouncement of Jesus Christ. That is the logical conclusion when the Torah is clung to in the manner that so many Messianic Christians cling to it. It's a love for the law over and above the lawmaker. This is at odds with the New Covenant and in fact is a misunderstanding of the OT laws, and too many of these people when it gets down to making a choice between the two, choose the law over the Lord. It's the same mistake the Pharisees made. I am seeing this so much and so much more as time goes on, that I am in deep sorrow over it.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 2:24:52 PM
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P31W
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OK, somebody fill me in here! I have not seen where anyone is loving the law more than the lawgiver? I will admit that I got lost somewhere in the sacrifice discussion and don't believe any other sacrifice is required for our sins other than the one Christ paid on the Cross.
As far as someone who eats Kosher I don't believe that it is for me based on NT teachings "God said it's good" but then I also know Romans 14 we are told that one day is more special to one than another and we are not to judge people who have special days.
What am I missing? Am I loving the law more than God when I abide by some of the sanitation laws? health laws? weights and measurement laws, property rights laws? tithing? marriage laws?
What makes "me" any differant from others? I have a Holy Day set apart unto the Lord. A day of rest. Does this mean I love the law more than the law maker?
HELP me someone who can get into my Southern Baptist Mississippi mindset and help me to see what I am missing. So far I don't have anything to say about the MJ other than they are my brothers and sisters.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 3:01:36 PM
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rockv12
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
It's a love for the law over and above the lawmaker. This is at odds with the New Covenant and in fact is a misunderstanding of the OT laws, and too many of these people when it gets down to making a choice between the two, choose the law over the Lord.
The Law is the Lord.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 3:16:29 PM
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P31W
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Ignore my request for help. Someone was kind enough to PM me and help me understand. LOL I think it would be best for me to "bow out" of this thread. I believe I am on one wave link and everybody else is on another. LOL nothing new for me!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 4:41:31 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Ezra and Jimbo --
Do you seriously think that we follow biblical mandates because of pride? Do you seriously think that we we have not considered the things you are writing and know exactly what we are doing and should do about them? Do you seriously think that you are telling us anything we do not know when you write to us about biblical history? At least write something that challenges us! Your questions seem to be written in derision, not asked with a desire to know what we are thinking and why.
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Bzirk --
Your experience with Messianics has been quite different from mine, and I am sorry that you have seen "happening over and over and over again is an inevitable renouncement of Jesus Christ." That is amazing. While I know of one case of a Christian leader, who had a radio broadcast and quite a following, turning Him aside in order to try to convert to Judaism, I know of only this one and two others (both men with mental problems) who have done this in all my years in Messianism. I know of no one now -- No One -- who has "a love for the law over and above the lawmaker." This is amazing to me and is probably coming from poorly-taught teachers or teachers who have usurped the position of teaching without authority. It also likely comes from teachers who have not come under the authority of a focused organization.
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P31W --
We have enjoyed you -- you don't have to go anywhere. 
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 6:36:29 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
and don't believe any other sacrifice is required for our sins other than the one Christ paid on the Cross.
If that is indeed what you believe, then take it to the next step. That sacrifice on the Cross included the shedding of Christ's blood, which effectively NULLIFIED THE ENTIRE SYSTEM OF THE OT. Don't move on from that statement until it fully sinks in.
The Old Covenant was nullified through the Cross. The New Covenant came into effect immediately after the resurrection of Christ. Will you let that sink in? When one covenant has been replaced by another which is better, YOU CANNOT GO BACK TO THE OLD. That is a slap in the face of the Almighty!
quote:
What am I missing? Am I loving the law more than God when I abide by some of the sanitation laws? health laws? weights and measurement laws, property rights laws? tithing? marriage laws?
What you're missing is that you cannot "follow Torah" piecemeal. It is a seamless fabric. You cannot pick and choose which laws you will keep and what you will discard. You cannot keep "some" sanitation laws, until and unless you are prepared to resurrect the whole system with its Temple, its daily sacrifices, its annual Feasts, its priests and levites, its new moons and sabbaths, its tithing, and everything else which goes with it. Furthermore, you cannot simply "keep" the Ten Commandments peicemeal. You must keep them perfectly every day (as described in the Sermon on the Mount), or come under the curse of the Law.
Those who cling to the Torah have no choice but to obey it absolutely in every detail, or become "law-breakers". Also those who follow Torah for righteousness nullify the grace of God. Read Paul very carefully. Those who cling to Christ have the joy of knowing that there was only One who could and did keep the Law perfectly, then set it aside for a "better" Covenant and a higher Law -- the Law of Christ.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 6:53:12 PM
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Mattumanu
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St. Paul believed that the law's primary function was to drive the doer to despair of himself, and make us look to Christ, the one who perfectly kept the law on our behalf.
Another question to those talking about keeping the law: What do you think of your performance of the law?
_____________________________
Radical Grace Radio
Tear Down the High Places
I'm a converted pagan operating amongst a nation of apostate puritans ~ C. S. Lewis
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 7:39:23 PM
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P31W
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Matt and Ezra,
Let me help you understand ME a little better because I think this topic REALLY came from some others that I have not been a part of and have not read. Don't think I want to "go there". LOL
I am Southern Baptist. Born and raised. I don't use the term "torah". I never have been taught that I was to follow the Old Covenant. So when "I" speak about obeying the law I don't even connect it to sacrifices, special types of foods or keeping sabbaths. Rather I am talking about looking into the scripture and applying it to my life today.
When I did a study on the inerrancy of scripture I ran across the FACTS that deal with the laws of Moses and how if humans would have followed those laws (which are perfect) leprosy would not have killed millions in Europe, deadly epidemics of typhoid, cholera and dsyentery would have been avoided, the mortailty rates in hospitals would have been dramatically slashed if the doctors would have simply abided by God's laws.
These are just a few of the wonderful things I have discovered when studying God's Word. Men have suffered for decades because we refuse to admit that God's laws "are" correct. When God said to wash your hand with "running water" after you touch something dead He knew what he was talking about. But because people are afraid folks will call them legalists or yell "we are free from the law how dare you" then folks die.
I don't worry much about people who might think I am a legalists. That's would be funny if you knew me but I do tend to worry when folks encourage me to throw God's laws out the window because I am saved. In fact the HS living in me takes me back to those very laws to now see them in a very differant light!
The boundry laws never COULD save anyone. ROFL but God did have good reason to give them. I plan to obey the boundry laws.
Matt,
You asked what do I (I know all of us but I can only speak for myself) think about my preformance of the law. I have no clue whatsoever. It is just a part of my life. I read something in scripture and ask God what he wants me to do with that passage and I try to do it. I try to see if stopping Charging interest to Christians is possible and when the answer is yes then I do it. When I found out that I could not borrow money without violating the principle of surety that I did''t violate that principle and just trusted God to work out the matter. He did and always has. It's not so much about my preformance as it is my obedience and trust in God to do what "He" said he would.
quote:
Also those who follow Torah for righteousness nullify the grace of God.
I don't think anyone here has suggested doing that. If they have please give the post number.
< Message edited by P31W -- 7/23/2005 7:48:41 PM >
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 7:57:31 PM
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P31W
Posts: 1918
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quote:
You cannot keep "some" sanitation laws, until and unless you are prepared to resurrect the whole system
OK this sounds completely wack to me so help me understand what you mean by this?
I AM going to CONTINUE to remove waste from where I live. I AM going to CONTINUE to wash my hands with running water with I touch something dead. I AM going to CONTINUE to clean mold from my home. I AM going to CONTINUE to remove myself from others when I am sick and I know they can catch it!
Now explain to me exactly why obeying these laws are wrong.
I have NEVER obeyed these laws because I thought it would make me right with God. Rather I obey these laws because I "am" right with God and I do know that His ways are better than my ways.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 8:10:31 PM
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Mattumanu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Matt,
You asked what do I (I know all of us but I can only speak for myself) think about my preformance of the law. I have no clue whatsoever. It is just a part of my life. I read something in scripture and ask God what he wants me to do with that passage and I try to do it. I try to see if stopping Charging interest to Christians is possible and when the answer is yes then I do it. When I found out that I could not borrow money without violating the principle of surety that I did''t violate that principle and just trusted God to work out the matter. He did and always has. It's not so much about my preformance as it is my obedience and trust in God to do what "He" said he would.
Purhaps you haven't considered what the law demands of the doer. What do you think of Jesus' performance of the law?
_____________________________
Radical Grace Radio
Tear Down the High Places
I'm a converted pagan operating amongst a nation of apostate puritans ~ C. S. Lewis
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 8:40:06 PM
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P31W
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quote:
Purhaps you haven't considered what the law demands of the doer.
The law does not make any demands upon me because Jesus fufilled the "demands of the law" and the law hold no curse for me. Now I can live with joy as the Holy Spirit teach me even more about God as I obey some of those laws.
How about you? Do you remove waste from your home too? Can you see that this law is good? For our benefit? That God gave us this law because he loved us and knew what was best for us?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 8:50:15 PM
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Mattumanu
Posts: 164
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
Purhaps you haven't considered what the law demands of the doer.
The law does not make any demands upon me because Jesus fufilled the "demands of the law" and the law hold no curse for me. Now I can live with joy as the Holy Spirit teach me even more about God as I obey some of those laws.
How about you? Do you remove waste from your home too? Can you see that this law is good? For our benefit? That God gave us this law because he loved us and knew what was best for us?
Sure... but you and I both know that "removing waste" isn't what the law is about. "love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength... and love your neighbor as yourself. On these the law and the prophets hang".
At what moment in your life do you keep that law in this manner?
_____________________________
Radical Grace Radio
Tear Down the High Places
I'm a converted pagan operating amongst a nation of apostate puritans ~ C. S. Lewis
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 8:55:16 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 2828
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mattumanu
St. Paul believed that the law's primary function was to drive the doer to despair of himself, and make us look to Christ, the one who perfectly kept the law on our behalf.
Another question to those talking about keeping the law: What do you think of your performance of the law?
Mattumanu --
To answer you very basically, earlier, I brought up the fact that when I eat kosher foods, for instance, I, as others have been for all of time, am imperfect. For example, the Word says not to eat blood. While chefs all over the world will protest the presence of blood in the meat we eat, even giving what looks like blood to us a different name, scientist will not deny it. Look at it under a microscope, and one will see the distinct qualities of the components of blood.
What does this teach me? That while I do my best to do the commands, I will never be 100% successful as long as I eat the meat. Rather, I still must rely upon grace, just as believers have throughout the ages, from the very first righteous one. No human's righteousness is something we have produced on our own; it is only from the one righteous One. There is no other source
Our L-rd said, in Matthew 5, as I believe was mentioned by another in this thread, "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses (that) of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." An initial look at this verse with a mere knowledge of history makes it an alarming verse, but with knowledge of the source of all righteousness, it gives one peace.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 8:56:25 PM
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P31W
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On these the law and the prophets hang"
Was Jesus quoting OT law or did he make up something new? In other words was that always true or just true for the NT believer?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 9:00:28 PM
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P31W
Posts: 1918
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quote:
At what moment in your life do you keep that law in this manner?
ROFL are you asking me if I am saved? I am.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 9:01:26 PM
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Mattumanu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
On these the law and the prophets hang"
Was Jesus quoting OT law or did he make up something new? In other words was that always true or just true for the NT believer?
What do you mean, "did he make something up"? He is God, isn't he? If he says something, doesn't it mean something?
_____________________________
Radical Grace Radio
Tear Down the High Places
I'm a converted pagan operating amongst a nation of apostate puritans ~ C. S. Lewis
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 9:02:56 PM
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P31W
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"something NEW" as in a "new command"? or was he simply "quoting the torah"?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 9:04:44 PM
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Mattumanu
Posts: 164
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
At what moment in your life do you keep that law in this manner?
ROFL are you asking me if I am saved? I am.
No. I asked you, at what moment in your life do you keep the law in the manner that Jesus described it. After all, he wasn't talking in an indicative sense, but rather in the imperative sense.
_____________________________
Radical Grace Radio
Tear Down the High Places
I'm a converted pagan operating amongst a nation of apostate puritans ~ C. S. Lewis
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 9:15:55 PM
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P31W
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I can't keep the law the way Jesus did. (not even close!) That is why he had to die on the cross to fufill the requirements of the law and to break the curse of the law.
You know man never was counted as righteous by keeping the law it was "faith".
Now I will ask you something Matt. I believe you are asking these questions because you are saved.
Now as a saved person what do "you" do with the command from God (the law) concerning washing your hands after you touch something dead? Explain "why" you do or do not obey the law.
< Message edited by P31W -- 7/23/2005 9:20:37 PM >
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