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Mattumanu -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/23/2005 9:21:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

"something NEW" as in a "new command"? or was he simply "quoting the torah"?


Well, let's see. He stood on the sermon on the mount and redefined the law in such a way that it's frightening. "You have heard it said, do not commit murder... You have heard it said, do not commit adultery... "be therfore perfect, as your father in heaven is perfect".

The rich young ruler comes along and asks Jesus "what do I need to do to attain eternal life?" And Jesus says what?

And the rich young ruler says what? "I've done all that since I was a child". In other words, it's child's play?

And Jesus redefined the law to 100th power... “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Now most people will say that it's because his wealth was his Idol, but... WE ALL IDOLIZE OUR WEALTH. "Sell everything you have ("love your neighbor as yourself")... Then come follow me ("love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength").

That's pretty heavy folks.



P31W -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/23/2005 9:27:13 PM)

Are you trying to "get us saved". I am speaking as a "saved person" and how a person saved by faith alone would respond to the law.

I don't believe Jesus added anything to the law rather he explained it, lived it and was it!!!! Job understood that "lust" was a sin long before the law was given.

Now I will ask you as a saved person. What do you do when you read the laws concerning washing your hands when you touch a dead thing? Explain to me as a "saved" person why you obey or disobey that law.



Mattumanu -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/23/2005 9:27:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

I can't keep the law the way Jesus did. (not even close!) That is why he had to die on the cross to fufill the requirements of the law and to break the curse of the law.

You know man never was counted as righteous by keeping the law it was "faith".

Now I will ask you something Matt. I believe you are asking these questions because you are saved.

Now as a saved person what do "you" do with the command from God (the law) concerning washing your hands after you touch something dead? Explain "why" you do or do not obey the law.


The same thing the atheist would do. Wash my hands. See, that's the whole point.

Now, what do you think it meant when Jesus washed the disciple's feet? Why didn't he wash his own feet if that would fulfill all righteousness?



P31W -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/23/2005 9:35:24 PM)

quote:

The same thing the atheist would do. Wash my hands. See, that's the whole point.


Nope that is not the "whole" truth. Things that you and I take forgranted today in "our culture" and "society" were not and are not considered "normal" in parts of the world that don't have our same religious background.

See I obey that law "even when I don't understand it" because I trust God. I know that even if the "medical professionals" don't see reason to use "running water" when they touch sick folks instead they use a "basin" of water and allow tons of folks to die that I don't need to understand all the germ stuff behind that law. God loves me and told me to use "running water" no matter what others may say. Shame it took the medical community so long to catch on to that simple command to use "running water" instead of a basin.

I see how obeying God is a way that I show love to God and love to others. When I disobey God then others "die" and that is not love. That is selfishness on my part to depend on my "own understanding" and not His.



P31W -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/23/2005 9:41:00 PM)

Matt,

Have you ever heard the story of Matthew Fountaine Maury the father of Modern Oceanography?



P31W -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/23/2005 10:07:52 PM)

I don't know where you went so I am going to tell you about him. I need to sign off myself and get my Sunday School lesson finished. I am teaching Matthew 5:31-? however far we get! It's taken us a few months to get this far.

(copied)The fact that there are watery paths (ocean currents) in the seas was recorded in Psalms 8:8 some 27 centuries before man made the discovery and it was only because of the Bible that man made the discovery when he did. Upon hearing the Psalm, the American Matthew Fountaine Maury exclaimed, “It is enough – if the Word of God says there are paths in the sea, they must be there, and I am going to find them.” He proceeded to do just that and soon charted for the first time all of the major sea lanes and currents. Matthew Maury is considered the father of modern oceanography and his statue stands at Annapolis Academy with sea charts in one hand and a Bible in the other.

Me speaking here. Matthew was in bed sick. His son was reading the Psalms to him. He asked his son to reread vs 8 several times. The lightbulb went of!!!! ALL scritpure is given by inspiration of God. All scripture is FROM GOD!!!! What more can I say. It's from God!!! We can trust Him and His Word!!! We can trust Him and His word enough to live by them, obey them, trust them! It's wonderful!



bobservations -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/23/2005 10:27:58 PM)

I do appreciate all the answers on the kosher food question. As an Adventist I didn't eat any unclean meats. I did use milk with the fat to make gravy. [;)]

Now that I understand the New Covenant, I have put away my Old Covenant beliefs and marvel in the Grace of Jesus. I can now eat with my brother and not feel guilty. I don't have to read every label. I don't worry about getting ready for the next Sabbath right after the last one is over. I rest in Jesus and fellowship with all Christians. I do not feel unequally yoked anymore. What a blessing to have the burden off my back. You have said how you are continually looking for new law to follow. I am continually searching for someone to tell the Good News of salvation. Love and Peace, boB



bzirk -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/23/2005 10:48:58 PM)

I obey the law, but I obey the law of Christ (rf. I Cor. 9:20-21), which is written on my heart as a believer and not the same exact thing as the law of Moses. There was indeed a change to the law when Jesus came and it was not in regard to justification. Justification was always by faith. That was nothing new as evidenced by Hebrews 11 (among other passages) and also by the OT saints who committed all kinds of sins and one of the chief sinners among them the Lord said he was a man after His own heart. That doesn't sound like justification by keeping the law.

It is important to note that when Paul is referring to the law, he is referring to the law of Moses. He more than once says the law has passed away, and yet he says he's under the law of Christ. Unless his reference to "the law" is the law of Moses, then his rhetoric about being under the law of Christ and yet not being under the law makes absolutely no sense.

For those interested, I espouse New Covenant Theology (NCT). It is the only thing in almost 30 years of studying about the law and the various theologies, i.e, covenant, dispensationalism and all of the off shoots of both, that makes sense.

Here is an overview of NCT, and btw, this sound of grace website is just an awesome resource. I highly, highly recommend it.

http://www.soundofgrace.com/v11/n7/nct_gdl_117.htm



bzirk -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/23/2005 10:53:01 PM)

Bob,

I think that what P31W is talking about is not so much trying to get under the law as it is appreciating God's order and how much it is a blessing to be in that order, i.e., washing our hands or respecting our parents, and on and on and on. And appreciating God's order glorifies the Lord.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/23/2005 10:54:12 PM)

quote:

You have said how you are continually looking for new law to follow."
Who said that?
quote:

I am continually searching for someone to tell the Good News of salvation. Love and Peace, boB"
If one was of the mind to do the first, I am sure that one could do both. [:)]
What is this -- a who-can-be-holier-than-the-other-guy contest? [:D]

Come on, people! Let's have a little fun with this and not be so judgmental! Let's just get to know one another, try to understand one another, and not get so hung up on trying to prove how we have a better truth!

And Bob, the last I knew, you were SDA. What happened?



Mattumanu -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/23/2005 10:59:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

I don't know where you went so I am going to tell you about him. I need to sign off myself and get my Sunday School lesson finished. I am teaching Matthew 5:31-? however far we get! It's taken us a few months to get this far.

(copied)The fact that there are watery paths (ocean currents) in the seas was recorded in Psalms 8:8 some 27 centuries before man made the discovery and it was only because of the Bible that man made the discovery when he did. Upon hearing the Psalm, the American Matthew Fountaine Maury exclaimed, “It is enough – if the Word of God says there are paths in the sea, they must be there, and I am going to find them.” He proceeded to do just that and soon charted for the first time all of the major sea lanes and currents. Matthew Maury is considered the father of modern oceanography and his statue stands at Annapolis Academy with sea charts in one hand and a Bible in the other.

Me speaking here. Matthew was in bed sick. His son was reading the Psalms to him. He asked his son to reread vs 8 several times. The lightbulb went of!!!! ALL scritpure is given by inspiration of God. All scripture is FROM GOD!!!! What more can I say. It's from God!!! We can trust Him and His Word!!! We can trust Him and His word enough to live by them, obey them, trust them! It's wonderful!


If I'm not mistaken, Matthew Fountaine Maury was a member of the episcopal church too. And he's not the only person who believed scripture is true.



bzirk -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/23/2005 11:11:38 PM)

Covaan_Meshuga,

Just so you know, I have known some very sweet and sincere "Messianic Christians." Unfortunately, I think some of these people are drawn to this movement because they crave structure more than anything. The common thread I've seen in the numerous Messianic Christians I've spoken to is that they felt out of control and were drawn to the very defined structure of Messianic Christianity. So what many of these people seem to be after is not really God but a form of living that meets this need for structure, which is really about control.

Some of these people have indeed ended up renouncing Christ. Not all of them but some. I think one reason some of them renounce Christ is that the law of Christ cannot be put in a box. It is not something that is as defined as the Mosasic law, since it's written on the heart and not tablets of stone. And if it's not in a box, then it is not something that can be controlled. I do get a little tickled when I have discussed Gal 5 with Messianic Christians especially when we get to verse 18.



bzirk -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/23/2005 11:37:49 PM)

Continuing on with my thought about control, I think this is the impetus that kept the Pharisees and other Hebrews (who did not come to the Lord) embracing the law of Moses (or more accurately something tangible and therefore controlled), and they clung to this so much that they could not let go of it to cling to the law of Christ.

It is evident this was the case when one reads Stephen's sermon in Acts. POWERFUL! I usually get choked when I read that passage. The Jews didn't get it. It was about the heart being circumcised not the privates. They never got that, because it is something that is not controlled by man. It is strictly God's territory. It always was. The Jews just never got that. That's why God said, "They shall never enter my rest." They were too busy doing their stuff to enter God's finished work, which btw, is the true sabbath and not the observance of the 7th day which is a mere picture of the eternal rest.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/23/2005 11:41:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk
Covaan_Meshuga,

Just so you know, I have known some very sweet and sincere "Messianic Christians." Unfortunately, I think some of these people are drawn to this movement because they crave structure more than anything. The common thread I've seen in the numerous Messianic Christians I've spoken to is that they felt out of control and were drawn to the very defined structure of Messianic Christianity. So what many of these people seem to be after is not really God but a form of living that meets this need for structure, which is really about control.
I sought out Messianism because the churches i asked were not able to answer a question I had that seemed very important in the Scriptures. One thing I did not need was more structure! I went to Messianism after being booted out of a holiness-Arminian church. [:D] They did me a favor! [:D] I had been attending on Sabbaths, but when they kicked me out, I went to what I had wanted since my late teens.

(My husband just stopped by my office and showed me his ice cream bowl. He said it was chocolate swirl, not "mint choplet chick." Hee-hee!)

You know, honestly, I have only been to four shuls: one I attended for a few months, one I returned to once to see if they really were that bad, one I didn't stay in for the whole service (!!), and the one I am in, that I love. We are Messianics. I am not sure if there is a difference between "Messianics" and "Messianic Christians," but I think there is. I could be So Wrong, but I think Messianic Christians follow a belief common called among Messianics "Two Law Doctrine." Now, I am sure that there are many who grasp the "two-law doctrine," but I can see why it could lead to denial of our L-rd. In fact, the leader I mentioned earlier started off as a "two law-er" and ended up denying Him.

Regarding structure, my shul strictly follows what the Bible says, as I would prefer. in fact, if they brought in any additional "rules," adding to what the Bible says, and said we had to follow them, the one speaking would be talked right out the back door. In my shul, when the speaker says something from the pulpit, they had better have complete scriptural backup for what is said, because throughout the teachings, we have a roving mike that is expected to be used, and that speaker would be immediately questioned until they could produce scriptural proof. In fact, if this happens, some people do not wait for the mic. [:D] No teacher or leader gets by with anything there! [:D] The questions and answers are weekly, without fail, and if someone is too shy to ask then, they are invited to ask after lunch in our class in the library.

quote:

Some of these people have indeed ended up renouncing Christ. Not all of them but some. I think one reason some of them renounce Christ is that the law of Christ cannot be put in a box. It is not something that is as defined as the Mosasic law, since it's written on the heart and not tablets of stone. And if it's not in a box, then it is not something that can be controlled. I do get a little tickled when I have discussed Gal 5 with Messianic Christians especially when we get to verse 18.
I am wondering, my friend Bzirk (for I see you as a friend), from your final paragraph here, who Christians believe authored what they call the "Mosaic law"? I wonder, too, who they believe initiated the new covenant and who they believe participated in it (participates in it / will participate in it)? I wonder, too, if everyone here has read Galations 5:18 in context, in Greek, with emphasis on the word law?



Mattumanu -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/23/2005 11:43:12 PM)

I love these discussions. They push my understanding of the law to new heights.

The law says more than a bunch of rules to follow. The "love" that the law requires is not an aquiescence to a set of rules one does not understand. The law, when properly understood, kills. This is what st. Paul tells us.

When Jesus says, "he who saves his own life shall lose it, but he who loses his life for my sake shall find it", he is speaking the law. "Pick up your cross and follow me" is law. Any set of rules, is law. And that's all they are, and all they can do is show you your sin. It's not that the law isn't holy, righteous and good, but it stirs up that which is unholy, unrighteous and evil in me!

So, when you say you are washing your hands to show your love for God and love for neighbor, you are taking upon yourself the wieght of that law. Forget to wash your hands once, and you are a lawbreaker, and deserve death. Paul wouldn't argue stringently against this TO CHRISTIANS if it weren't important. "You who have begun in the spirit, are you now seeking to be perfected in the flesh?" In fact he was so adamantly opposed to this kind of thing that he hoped that those who preached circumcision would go the whole way and emasculate themselves...

Now, let me hammer on this... Romans 12:1...

Therefore beloved, IN VIEW OF HIS MERCIES, submit your bodies as living sacrifices... People will not submit thier bodies as living sacrifices by taking up 18,000 (or 613) ways to submit thier bodies as living sacrifices. When we look at Jesus on the cross, Him bleeding and dying on the cross, we see the ONLY perfect picture of the law... It's not that we should be on the cross in our sins, but that we should be on the cross for our God AND our neighbor IN OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS, if we possessed any real righteousness to begin with. This is what the law really requires. To choose to serve our God and neighbor even unto death! With no vested interest, for our neighbor's benefit and not for our own. But who does this?

"there is none righteous, no not one".



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/23/2005 11:46:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk

Continuing on with my thought about control, I think this is the impetus that kept the Pharisees and other Hebrews (who did not come to the Lord) embracing the law of Moses (or more accurately something tangible and therefore controlled), and they clung to this so much that they could not let go of it to cling to the law of Christ.

It is evident this was the case when one reads Stephen's sermon in Acts. POWERFUL! I usually get choked when I read that passage. The Jews didn't get it. It was about the heart being circumcised not the privates. They never got that, because it is something that is not controlled by man. It is strictly God's territory. It always was. The Jews just never got that. That's why God said, "They shall never enter my rest." They were too busy doing their stuff to enter God's finished work, which btw, is the true sabbath and not the observance of the 7th day which is a mere picture of the eternal rest.
I would ask you to change your words in your post to read something like "the Pharisees and other Hebrews who did not believe" and "The Jews who did not get it." [:)] I would ask you, once again, who authored the the Torah? Was He in error? And has anyone here looked into the chapter on the "rest"? I mean really looked into it, in Greek?



bzirk -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/23/2005 11:50:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk
Covaan_Meshuga,

Just so you know, I have known some very sweet and sincere "Messianic Christians." Unfortunately, I think some of these people are drawn to this movement because they crave structure more than anything. The common thread I've seen in the numerous Messianic Christians I've spoken to is that they felt out of control and were drawn to the very defined structure of Messianic Christianity. So what many of these people seem to be after is not really God but a form of living that meets this need for structure, which is really about control.
I sought out Messianism because the churches i asked were not able to answer a question I had that seemed very important in the Scriptures. One thing I did not need was more structure! I went to Messianism after being booted out of a holiness-Arminian church. [:D] They did me a favor! [:D] I had been attending on Sabbaths, but when they kicked me out, I went to what I had wanted since my late teens.

(My husband just stopped by my office and showed me his ice cream bowl. He said it was chocolate swirl, not "mint choplet chick." Hee-hee!)

You know, honestly, I have only been to four shuls: one I attended for a few months, one I returned to once to see if they really were that bad, one I didn't stay in for the whole service (!!), and the one I am in, that I love. We are Messianics. I am not sure if there is a difference between "Messianics" and "Messianic Christians," but I think there is. I could be So Wrong, but I think Messianic Christians follow a belief common called among Messianics "Two Law Doctrine." Now, I am sure that there are many who grasp the "two-law doctrine," but I can see why it could lead to denial of our L-rd. In fact, the leader I mentioned earlier started off as a "two law-er" and ended up denying Him.

Regarding structure, my shul strictly follows what the Bible says, as I would prefer. in fact, if they brought in any additional "rules," adding to what the Bible says, and said we had to follow them, the one speaking would be talked right out the back door. In my shul, when the speaker says something from the pulpit, they had better have complete scriptural backup for what is said, because throughout the teachings, we have a roving mike that is expected to be used, and that speaker would be immediately questioned until they could produce scriptural proof. In fact, if this happens, some people do not wait for the mic. [:D] No teacher or leader gets by with anything there! [:D] The questions and answers are weekly, without fail, and if someone is too shy to ask then, they are invited to ask after lunch in our class in the library.

quote:

Some of these people have indeed ended up renouncing Christ. Not all of them but some. I think one reason some of them renounce Christ is that the law of Christ cannot be put in a box. It is not something that is as defined as the Mosasic law, since it's written on the heart and not tablets of stone. And if it's not in a box, then it is not something that can be controlled. I do get a little tickled when I have discussed Gal 5 with Messianic Christians especially when we get to verse 18.
I am wondering, my friend Bzirk (for I see you as a friend), from your final paragraph here, who Christians believe authored what they call the "Mosaic law"? I wonder, too, who they believe initiated the new covenant and who they believe participated in it (participates in it / will participate in it)? I wonder, too, if everyone here has read Galations 5:18 in context, in Greek, with emphasis on the word law?


I hope you know I surely don't see you as an enemy. BTW, you might be right about "Messianic Christians" being something different from Messianism. I am certainly no authority on all of this, but what you are talking about is familiar.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/23/2005 11:58:02 PM)

quote:

I hope you know I surely don't see you as an enemy.
[sm=icon_smile.gif] I know. [sm=wave.gif]



bzirk -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/24/2005 12:00:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk

Continuing on with my thought about control, I think this is the impetus that kept the Pharisees and other Hebrews (who did not come to the Lord) embracing the law of Moses (or more accurately something tangible and therefore controlled), and they clung to this so much that they could not let go of it to cling to the law of Christ.

It is evident this was the case when one reads Stephen's sermon in Acts. POWERFUL! I usually get choked when I read that passage. The Jews didn't get it. It was about the heart being circumcised not the privates. They never got that, because it is something that is not controlled by man. It is strictly God's territory. It always was. The Jews just never got that. That's why God said, "They shall never enter my rest." They were too busy doing their stuff to enter God's finished work, which btw, is the true sabbath and not the observance of the 7th day which is a mere picture of the eternal rest.
I would ask you to change your words in your post to read something like "the Pharisees and other Hebrews who did not believe" and "The Jews who did not get it." [:)] I would ask you, once again, who authored the the Torah? Was He in error? And has anyone here looked into the chapter on the "rest"? I mean really looked into it, in Greek?


Yes, I've examined the passage in the Greek. I'm not a Greek scholar by any means, but I have studied it, so that I'm not a novice in it.

There is no question that God authored the Torah, but it was not His final words to us. He did go on to make a New Covenant with us after the Torah was complete and as a result the old passed away.

I'm satisfied with what I believe to be true about the law. I in no way believe that we have no law as believers. I just believe it's not the Mosaic law. It closely resembles the Mosaic law in many respects, but it's not exactly the same, hence the New Covenant.

As to my words in the previous post, "who did not come to the Lord" was my way of saying those who did not believe.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/24/2005 12:06:13 AM)

quote:

As to my words in the previous post, "who did not come to the Lord" was my way of saying those who did not believe.
I thought so, but i wanted to be sure. [;)]



Mattumanu -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/24/2005 12:08:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk

There is no question that God authored the Torah, but it was not His final words to us. He did go on to make a New Covenant with us after the Torah was complete and as a result the old passed away.


The "final word"... of John 1:1. The "word" made flesh.

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son".



bobservations -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/24/2005 2:13:02 AM)

Covaan said: And Bob, the last I knew, you were SDA. What happened?

Time flies when you are retired and my mind sometimes won't allow me to recall some things. I believe though that I turned my resignation to the church clerk in 1996 or there about. If I have posted anything that made it sound like I am still SDA I apologize. Most SDA's are great people and are serving our Lord. They do have some doctrines that cannot be explained by scripture. I also take issue with the prophet.

Without repeating what has already been said, I would just say that what Bzerk and Matt have so elequently already explained in there posts, I also hold as my beliefs.

I do not worship on Sabbath. To those of you who do, my hat goes off to you. When you meet surely isn't a Christian problem. Our Biblical instruction is that we do not forsake assembling ouselves together. I could meet on Wednesday or any day. The problem for me is when we try to "keep" a day with Old Covenant laws that were nailed to the Cross.

Yes, the one who gave the covenant to the Israelites did appear in the flesh and kept it to the letter. He then gave all mankind a New and better covenant. He told us that we can't put new wine in old wine skins. The New wine is the New Covenant and we dare not mix the New with the Old. The better covenant is for our behalf. I accepted it freely and now His Grace fills my heart. The Old Testament is there to give us the history of God working in the lives of His people. It has many great words of wisdom. I marvel at God's love and His instruction for the betterment of His chosen ones. And then I am so thankful that I was born on this side of the Cross. I am thankful for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to guide me in this world filled with sin. Peace, boB



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/24/2005 2:39:07 AM)

I had just read your posts here and there over the years, hadn't seen you in a long time, and was surprised. No big deal. You just always seemed to write so adamently re your SDA beliefs.



a-lily -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/24/2005 9:39:07 AM)

These are some of my thoughts on the Torah...


I personally believe that Jesus wrote the Torah/Law, (John 1), everything He taught is in the Torah/Law, and He walked a Torah lifestyle. I believe this because of His own testimony in Matt 5:17-20. Another reason that I believe that Yeshua/Jesus kept the Torah/Law is because He was sinless… sin is transgression of the Torah/Law, He could not have broken the Torah/Law. So my conclusion is if He wrote it, lived it and testified to it then I have to assume that the Torah/Law is for me because I want to live by His example.

I also really have a problem with the idea that our just God, full of mercy and compassion, would require His chosen people, His treasured possession to follow to follow the Torah/Law, and then send Himself in flesh, to confirm that the Law/Torah is not done way with (Matt 5 : 17-20), die as the /Torah Law requires and then tell everyone through another servant…Paul…that it is a sin to participate in the Torah/Law anymore. ????? (For the record, I do NOT think Paul’s teaching contradicted Yeshua or the Law.) What was Yeshua/Jesus telling the folks to repent (turn-back) to before He had revealed Himself as God or before He died on the cross? In addition the Torah/Law states that anyone that comes teaching against the Torah/Law is to be considered a false prophet and should not be listened too.

I also do not hold the option that the Torah/Law is a curse. I really have trouble with the notion that God spoke a law that was a curse. I believe that we have been set free from the part of the Torah/Law that brings death. Death is the curse.

Sin is transgression of the Torah/Law. The wages of sin is death so transgression of the Torah/Law is death. All have sinned or transgressed the Torah/Law. All have sinned and been condemned by the Torah/Law. Torah/Law is God’s standard of righteousness. God gave the Torah/Law. God and Yeshua are the same, Yeshua cannot contradict the Father… that would be the same as contradicting Himself. To keep the Torah is to be like God/Yeshua or equal too Him. No one has done this, no one can. The Torah/Law shows us the Glory of God/Yeshua, it teaches us what is right and how we fall short of it. But Yeshua came and fully kept the Torah/Law. He met its standards proving to us that He was the Glory of God. He then took our place and died for our sins as the Torah/Law required.

I can now walk in Torah/Law, but am no longer bound to the penalty of transgressing the Torah/Law because Yeshua/Jesus paid for it. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those of us in Yeshua/Jesus.

Now those that choose to follow Torah/Law without Yeshua/Jesus are placing themselves back under the curse of the Torah/Law. They are now taking upon themselves the yoke of paying for their own sins. They are relying on their own works to earn them their pardon, but the Torah/Law does not require the works of man for redemption it requires the shedding of blood/death.


Judaizers taught you could only be saved if you were circumcised. They were wrong not because circumcision was done away with, but were wrong because it had never “worked” to gain salvation. Abraham believed in God and it was credited to him as righteousness and THEN he was circumcised, as a sign. It is the same as saying, you must be baptized to be saved. You must pay tithes to be saved. You must feed the poor and take care of the widows to be saved. All of these things are good works and should be done by believers however none of it will save you.

Shalom [sm=icon_smile.gif]
Joy



ferdgoodfellow -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/24/2005 10:02:05 AM)

Hey all,

Just jumping in w/o the benefit of having read your posts.

My take on the OP is this:

Paul makes it quite clear in Rom 3:28 that we are justified apart from "works of Torah." In his mind, the Torah was a united whole, not broken up into components (ceremonial, moral, etc.). IOW, we don't git saved by doing works of Torah. What the heck does that mean? When someone does something (get circumcised for example) because it is prescribed in Torah, then that person is doing works of Torah. It is the intent behind the act that matter here. If I am trying to get saved via the Mosaic system, then I am doing just what Paul says not to do. But note that the Torah tells to do a lot of good stuff (love God, love neighbor, etc.) Does that mean we don't have to do that anymore? Nope. When Paul says that the Torah as a whole is not necessary for salvation, he does not mean that all its elements are unecessary. To assert this is to commit the fallacy of division (i.e. the whole has certain properties (nonnecessity in this case), so all the parts are unnecessary as well). A dietician might tell us that drinking Diet Coke is not necessary for good health, but we would not at all be permitted to infer that its basic indgredient, water, is unnecessary.

This is my quick summary of James Akin's chapter 8 in his book The Salvation Controversy. Makes sense to me.

cordially

ferd



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