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cybrjewls -> RE: America In Prophecy (4/30/2008 7:51:51 PM)
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So many words.....so little truth. And some Muslims even got the Doctrine about the anti al-Mahdi correct, what happened to you?
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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
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ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
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ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
So, if America were Babylon, would you feel like you were doing something wrong by living here when God says "come out of her (Babylon) My people"?
I think your symbolic interpretations aren't necessary as to the chip and the horsemen. Nor do I think Islam has any bearing to the King of the North other than that the present Secular First World versus Terrorism defines the final conflict of North versus South as per Daniel 11:32-45.
In 722-24 BC, Assyria (directly to the North of Israel) came down directly from the North and took over the northern 10 tribes, then led them away captive and dispersed them into the rest of the world, never to be heard from again. I'd say the king of the North is very likely from Syria. And since I don't buy into an antichrist, I'd never say the king of the North is him. I think the original beast was the 1st Jihad, and the image of the beast is the second Jihad. And the two horned beast that looks like a lamb but speaks like a dragon is the Western Christian nations that existed back in 688 AD to 1967 AD. We're told what horns are in prophecy. They're empires or nations that rule. What we find is that twice from 688 to 1967 while the Muslims ruled the temple mount, Western Christian nations ruled in the Holy Land as well by coming in and taking over Jerusalem for a short time: once during the Crusades, and once during the British Mandate of WWI. Notice how it says this two horned beast rules IN THE PRESENCE of the beast? They coexisted... twice. And this two horned beast is "looks like a lamb," which is always a reference to Christ, and so these are nations under the guise of Christianity, because they "speak like a dragon" which the dragon is always Satan in prophecy. We see in Revelation how a lamb comes up to the thrown and it's clearly Christ, and we see how the dragon is always Satan in Revelation as well. So, these nations apparently are using religion as part of their reasoning for going down and taking control of the Holy Land, but they have alterior motives. If you look into the reason why the Crusades actually occured, you'll find out that it was not about religion. The Catholic church was telling people that if they fought in the Crusades, their sins would be forgiven. But what was actually going on is that the king wanted the land in the Middle East because of the oil and other resources he had heard were abundant there. It was a power play, and they used religion as a means to get people to fight in that war. I don't know enough about the British Mandate to speak of it, though.
It is also said that this two horned beast causes fire to come down from heaven "in the presence" of the beast (the Leopard-Bear-Lion beast if what we're talking about, which is Assyria, Iraq and Iran). And if the Western Christian nations are the two horned beast, and they give this beast life and then cause fire to come down out of heaven as well, it makes a lot of sense. The first Jihad was dead 152 years after it started. The great wound was in 732 AD when a 300,000 man Muslim army was defeated in France by a 15,000 man Christian army that only lost 1,500 men. If that battle had not been won, Muslims would rule today and we would all be speaking Arabic right now and praying to Allah. That's how important that battle was. In the 1600's, another attempt was made to take over Europe in an attack on Vienna where another huge Muslim army was defeated by a Christian army of very few men in comparison. So the beast was wounded greatly, and then in the 1900's, with the invent of the automobile and airplanes and the uses for oil, suddenly, the Western nations are buying oil from the Middle Eastern nations (the beast) again. That money is what caused them to be able to build their current empires and start their Jihad up all over again. So we've supplied their new Jihad with money through oil purchases, and then we end up attacking them in the first Gulf War, and now this Iraq war. If you saw the "Shock and Awe" campaign on TV, you'll know what "fire reigning down from heaven" really means. That's how the two horned beast caused fire to come down out of heaven "in the presence of the beast."
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As to America in prophecy, I think we are the First Beast of Daniel 7:4. There are certainly parallels between the beasts and the Kingdoms of Nebuchadnezzar's statue, but they are not the same.
I believed for many years that the lion with eagles wings was Great Britian and the United States separating from it when the wings were plucked. The UK has the national symbol of the Lion, and the United States has the symbol of the Eagle. That I understand. But I don't buy it anymore, because I've seen how those prophecies line up perfectly with Greece, Babylon and Medo-Persia. Babylon's symbol was the lion and eagles wings represent great power, which was plucked from them during the end of their reign of the world at large. Greece had the national symbol of the leopard, and Medo-Persia had the national symbol of the bear. I may have two of those backwards. I think I may have mixed these up in my explanation before and said Assyria instead of Greece. If I did, I apologize. Anyway, the fact that the lion, bear and leopard are in exactly the same order as they ruled in the holy land, and then are followed by the fourth beast with ten horns, which is Rome, then it makes far more sense. Rome was broken into pieces which is the European nations now, which is exactly what happens to the ten horned beast. Also, we see John write this:
Rev 17:10-11 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and
one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh,
he must continue a short space.
During John's lifetime, Rome was in power, so Rome was
empire number six, the empire that IS. The five fallen would
then have to be five empires that controlled the Holy Land before
John's time. Four of those empires can easily be documented as
Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. The identity of the first
king is less certain; it could be Egypt, but it is more probably the
Canaanites.
A 7th empire would follow Rome and continue a little while.
After Rome fell in 476AD, the next major empire to rule in the
Holy Land was the Leopard-Bear-Lion, and in God’s eternal eyes,
the Moslems did remain a little while. 1260 years is a “short
space” for an eternal God.
--Excerpt from The False Prophet, pg 57-58 in pdf format, by Ellis H. Skolfield
http://www.ellisskolfield.com/pdf/TFPChapters10-17.pdf
It fits far too well to go randomly throwing America into being the first beast. Doesn't make sense...
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As to Revelation 18 and the WTC, there certainly are valid comparisons, but the deciding factor against 9-11 fulfilling that passage is that neither music, nor work, nor light, nor laughter will be found in the New Babylon afterward. Think of 9-11 done with nuclear weapons versus aircraft. God can use terrorists to fulfill His Plans. 9-11 does show something along the lines of prophecy though in that Capitalism does trade in the lives and souls of men and we ought not be too proud of our economic system.
You believe this is God's plan and He's making it play out? I never viewed it that way, because God says in Genesis 1:26 that He gives mankind dominion/sovereign rule over the earth and everything on it (including ourselves). For Him to interfere without our asking Him to do so is against our free will. What God was doing by giving us prophecy was showing us what the WORLD would do from Old Testament days to the return of Jesus Christ. He was not showing what HE wanted to do. God does not go around exacting punishment on everyone around the world. Satan does that. The way I look at this is like so: Jesus said the world would hate us on account of Him. And the disciples went on missions and Paul and others were brutally attacked for their belief in Christ. Missionaries today are still attacked for their belief in Christ. America is the only nation that built it's costitution heavily depending on the law of the Old Testament and Judeo-Christian values. I'm reading a book called The 5,000 Year Leap that takes you through everything that happened when our founders built our constitution and how they came to their decisions and why they did it the way they did it. And you would not believe how much God is discussed and implimented in the structure. They talk about how they believe in Nature's Laws and the Laws of the God of Nature, the Creator. Because we are a Christian nation, and because we protect Israel and we are the only thing standing in the way of the Muslims destroying Israel, they attacked us. It is required by the Koran to kill the infidels if they will not convert, and the Jews and Christians are specifically talked about there. We were attacked for exactly the reason missionaries are attacked and killed in other countries, especially Muslim countries: because of our belief on Christ. Nothing more.
If your theory were true that a nation who is in obedience to God would not be judged by God by way of attack from a Muslim nation, then we'd have to apply that to Christians as well and say that a Christian who is in obedience to God could not have a Muslim come and kill him for preaching the Gospel on the missions field. Since when did we get this idea that if we're "good little Christians," nothing bad will happen to us? And how did that extend to a national level? I never understood that. The US is hated by the rest of the world. Gee, I wonder why? I think that's clear fulfillment of what Jesus said about the world hating us for loving Him. That's just my opinion, though. Everyone's free to interpret 9/11 however they like.
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As to your quoting Rev 18:4, might not you consider the audience may be intended for others (i.e. Jews). We must come out of the world, but I don't think our physical locality has any impact upon Jesus' ability to pick us up on the Day of the Lord. However, with the Jews, they must be in Israel for any chance to escape and join the Remnant which will survive the one 'seven.'
If you are correct and God is telling the Jews to come out of "her" in Revelation 18:4, then God is like the worst strategist ever. LOL Because why would God have all of the Old Testament to tell that to the Jews, and then blind them to Jesus so they'll reject the New Testament, then warn the Jews in the New Testmant, fully knowing the Jews aren't going to read or believe in it? LOL
No, the Old Testament prophecies were written by Jews, about the Jews, and for the Jews. The New Testament prophecies were written by Christians, about the Christians, and for the Christians. And that's the best strategy I can think of if you're God and you want to inform your people. You inform them in the book you know they'll be reading. lol Make sense?
And since I don't buy into the 70th week being a single seven years in the future, I won't comment on the "one seven." I don't quite know what you're implying there anyway, exactly, so I can't really comment on it.
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