|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: The Church as the so-called "bride" of Ch... - 6/24/2008 3:41:51 PM
|
|
|
notmycity
Posts: 1175
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
I never mentioned “a literal stone city” as His bride, and neither does Scripture.
Then what are you suggesting His bride is, if not a literal stone city?
Again, read Rev 21.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/24/2008 3:46:30 PM
|
|
|
notmycity
Posts: 1175
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I don't think you have an idea what the bride of Christ is or else I do not think you know how to interpret scripture because you say what the Bride isn't but cannot say in your own words what the bride is. If you cannot articulate the meaning of a passage, then you don't understand it.
Again.....“the bride, the Lamb’s wife” is “the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God”, just like the Scripture says.
I never said I understood it. I simply believe it.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/24/2008 3:48:30 PM
|
|
|
MrFribbles
Posts: 1743
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
|
quote:
Again, read Rev 21.
I have. And from what I understand, you are trying to teach that it is a literal city of stone! If this is not what you are trying to teach, please explain your position with more clarity!
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/24/2008 3:58:10 PM
|
|
|
notmycity
Posts: 1175
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Again, read Rev 21.
I have. And from what I understand, you are trying to teach that it is a literal city of stone! If this is not what you are trying to teach, please explain your position with more clarity!
Scripture says it’s a literal city, made of materials, but not stone. Please read it again.
I’m simply quoting the passage, so it isn’t my words you are raging against.
Rev 21:9-21
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
It says the city “was pure gold”, not stone.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/24/2008 4:09:43 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
...so it isn’t my words you are raging against.
You're so precious. Nobody is raging against the scripture only your declarations about it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/24/2008 4:25:09 PM
|
|
|
notmycity
Posts: 1175
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
...so it isn’t my words you are raging against.
You're so precious. Nobody is raging against the scripture only your declarations about it.
I declare it to mean what it says. NOTHING MORE.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/24/2008 4:29:05 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
From Isaiah:
For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
Anyone with teeny bit of scriptural understanding can see in context that Ephesians describes Christ as husband and the Church as His wife - His Bride:
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
The Church IS the bride of Christ!
There is no good reason this isn't obvious to a believer with a small amount of biblical understanding.
|
|
|
|
|
The church as the so-called bride of Christ - 6/24/2008 4:42:34 PM
|
|
|
notmycity
Posts: 1175
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
From Isaiah:
For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. For thy Maker is thine husband
Isaiah is speaking of Israel and Jerusalem. I’ve already address Ephesians 5.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/24/2008 4:58:12 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
From Isaiah:
For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. For thy Maker is thine husband
Isaiah is speaking of Israel and Jerusalem. I’ve already address Ephesians 5.
Then you simply do not know how to rightly divide the word.
Regarding Israel in Isaiah, dust off your Bible and read Romans 5 and discover what "grafted" means in relation to the Church.
Oh, and it seems to have gone right over your head about the connection between Isaiah's mention of Jerusalem the Bride and the NEW Jerusalem of Revelation. HINT here: Scripture interprets scripture. You might even take a moment to ponder 2 Peter 1:20, "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."
Nothing said in this thread changes that Ephesians is God's message to the redeemed of Christ that we, the corporate Church, is His Bride. If it escapes you, that isn't my fault.
< Message edited by JimboFletch -- 6/24/2008 5:04:29 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/24/2008 5:21:20 PM
|
|
|
notmycity
Posts: 1175
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
You might even take a moment to ponder 2 Peter 1:20, "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."
Amen!
I don’t need to interpret it. Rev 21 says what it means. No interpretation needed. It’s not in Latin.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/24/2008 5:25:26 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
You might even take a moment to ponder 2 Peter 1:20, "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."
Amen!
I don’t need to interpret it. Rev 21 says what it means. No interpretation needed. It’s not in Latin.
But it does not stand alone, which is the meaning of 2 Pter 1:20. All scripture requires interpretation. All. From English to the spiritual BY the Holy Spirit. It very revealing when someone admits they don't know that. Very.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/24/2008 6:08:02 PM
|
|
|
notmycity
Posts: 1175
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
You might even take a moment to ponder 2 Peter 1:20, "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."
Amen!
I don’t need to interpret it. Rev 21 says what it means. No interpretation needed. It’s not in Latin.
But it does not stand alone, which is the meaning of 2 Pter 1:20. All scripture requires interpretation. All. From English to the spiritual BY the Holy Spirit. It very revealing when someone admits they don't know that. Very.
Actually, I was thinking the sarcastic tone of your posts to be revealing.
Are you now saying that all of God’s people (OT and NT) are the bride?
If so, please share, who “are [invited] unto the marriage supper of the Lamb”?
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/24/2008 8:46:47 PM
|
|
|
MrFribbles
Posts: 1743
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
|
quote:
If so, please share, who “are [invited] unto the marriage supper of the Lamb”?
Does the bride attend a marriage supper?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/25/2008 8:20:38 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
Actually, I was thinking the sarcastic tone of your posts to be revealing.
The "tone" you perceive might be from your admission that you don't understand coupled with a refusal to even entertain the notion you misunderstand your reading of the written word. If you're not teachable (meek) or willing to accept any instruction (humble) then you are likely to perceive or receive correction as sarcastic or reviling. That's how someone sets themselves up as thinking they are a martyr and persecuted by other believers. Generally, to feel like one is persecuted by the majority of believers is not a badge of honor but red flag that one has drifted into error or has a serious lack of a servant's heart with no person as his elder. It's a strange thing to behold a man that is his own mentor.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church is not the bride of Christ... - 6/25/2008 10:05:08 AM
|
|
|
notmycity
Posts: 1175
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
If so, please share, who “are [invited] unto the marriage supper of the Lamb”?
Does the bride attend a marriage supper?
Isn't that a given? Is the bride included among the guests, or separate?
< Message edited by notmycity -- 6/25/2008 10:52:01 AM >
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church is not the bride of Christ... - 6/25/2008 11:15:51 AM
|
|
|
MrFribbles
Posts: 1743
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
|
quote:
Isn't that a given?
Well there ya' go. We're invited to the marriage supper as participants in the marriage.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/25/2008 11:24:06 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
If so, please share, who “are [invited] unto the marriage supper of the Lamb”?
Does the bride attend a marriage supper?
Isn't that a given? Is the bride included among the guests, or separate?
You say you only give the scripture because it doesn't need explanation and here I find you reasoning on something not specifically given. Isn't your reasoning adding to scripture?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church is not the bride of Christ... - 6/25/2008 11:24:25 AM
|
|
|
notmycity
Posts: 1175
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Isn't that a given?
Well there ya' go. We're invited to the marriage supper as participants in the marriage.
Indulging the circular reasoning for the moment please...
Are the maid of honor and bridesmaids the bride?
Are the best man and ushers the bride?
Are “children of the bride chamber” the bride?
Thanks again.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/25/2008 11:26:34 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Isn't that a given?
Well there ya' go. We're invited to the marriage supper as participants in the marriage.
Indulging the circular reasoning for the moment please...
Are the maid of honor and bridesmaids the bride?
Are the best man and ushers the bride?
Are “children of the bride chamber” the bride?
Thanks again.
Yet more of your reasoning on something not specifically given in scripture. Isn't your reasoning adding to scripture and why is that different than the truth we've tried to share with you?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/25/2008 11:54:32 AM
|
|
|
notmycity
Posts: 1175
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Isn't that a given?
Well there ya' go. We're invited to the marriage supper as participants in the marriage.
Indulging the circular reasoning for the moment please...
Are the maid of honor and bridesmaids the bride?
Are the best man and ushers the bride?
Are “children of the bride chamber” the bride?
Thanks again.
Yet more of your reasoning on something not specifically given in scripture. Isn't your reasoning adding to scripture and why is that different than the truth we've tried to share with you?
I agree. Do you see the problems inherent with not simply believing what is WRITTEN?
I indulged the circular reasoning with this single purpose, to prove that to do so does not rightly divide the Word of truth.
Again, I have said all along that I simply believe the account of Revelation 21. I also believe that “they that are called” to the marriage supper are all believers from Abel to the last NT believer. The called ones aren’t the bride, as we see the bride revealed later in Revelation.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/25/2008 12:36:40 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
Again, I have said all along that I simply believe the account of Revelation 21. I also believe that “they that are called” to the marriage supper are all believers from Abel to the last NT believer. The called ones aren’t the bride, as we see the bride revealed later in Revelation.
But that isn't what Revelation states. You are the one that made a jump in logic. It doesn't say that New Jerusalem is the Bride of Christ except by your reasoning. This entire thread has been based on your reasoning.
There is no verse that states, The New Jerusalem is the Bride of Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/25/2008 12:45:52 PM
|
|
|
notmycity
Posts: 1175
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
There is no verse that states, The New Jerusalem is the Bride of Christ.
You’re absolutely right.
Again, here’s what it does say:
Rev 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God...
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/25/2008 12:48:24 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
There is no verse that states, The New Jerusalem is the Bride of Christ.
You’re absolutely right.
Again, here’s what it does say:
Rev 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God...
You are right. There is no direct connection between verse 9 and verse 10, except by reasoning.
|
|
|
|
|
The Church is not the bride of Christ... - 6/25/2008 1:04:36 PM
|
|
|
notmycity
Posts: 1175
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
There is no verse that states, The New Jerusalem is the Bride of Christ.
You’re absolutely right.
Again, here’s what it does say:
Rev 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God...
You are right. There is no direct connection between verse 9 and verse 10, except by reasoning.
Or by simple observation. We can agree to disagree of course.
Would you also say that Rev 21:2 is not “connected”?
Rev 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
< Message edited by notmycity -- 6/25/2008 1:50:30 PM >
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ! - 6/25/2008 2:25:53 PM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
Would you also say that Rev 21:2 is not “connected”?
Rev 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
I've already addressed that, but I will again: "prepared as" is not a literal expression, it is a comparison. It means it is beautiful and wonderful like a bride dressed for her groom.
In Hosea 6:3:
Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
That doesn't mean that the rising sun is God or that God is rain or that God is the spring or fall rain. It is a comparison that following on to now God is invigorating and refreshing and produces much fruit.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
