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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 11:29:21 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I believe that the Church is the Body. Ephesians 5 is usually quoted as "proof" that the Church is the Bride. However, these verses proof that the Church is the Body.
So you accept one illustration as dogmatic, but say that another illustration is only an illustration? You seem to be picking and choosing here, Beanteaser.
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 12:01:36 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 277
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That is a fair point MrFribbles. The reason I "pick and chose" is Revelation 21 tells us exactly what the Bride is. If I conclude that the Church is the bride too, then I must accept either the Bible contradicts itself or that Jesus has or will have multiple wives. I can't accept either of those options.
I'll assume you are wondering why I don't believe the New Jerusalem is the same as the Church. There a few reasons. At the time of John's vision, there was nobody dwelling in the New Jerusalem yet it's still called the "Lamb's Wife". Notice all the "shalls" in Chapter 21 and 22? Revelation 19:8 proves that the saints adorn the wife which I think makes a subtle distinction between the two. Also Galatians 4:26 shows a not so subtle distinction.
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 12:02:22 PM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Knock it off with the insults, or this thread will disappear.
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 12:50:22 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
...If I conclude that the Church is the bride too, then I must accept either the Bible contradicts itself...
There is another alternative, that you misunderstand.
The Church is also presented as a building of living stones. It's also valid, wherther one understands that or not.
I know it disturbs a certain mindset, but God uses different analogies to present different aspects of complex concepts. Like the ancient parable of the 4 blind men that tried to describe an elephant (one feeling the trunk, another a leg, another the side, and one the tail). We, like they, are very limited while God is infinitely complex and beyond our ability to grasp without His help.
After all, look at all the titles and descriptions in scripture for God the Father and Jesus the Son. Which is right? Every one of them from the vantage point when given.
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 1:00:40 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 790
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Excellent post Jimbo like you new picture.
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 4:02:38 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1240
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Would I be safe in assuming you do not believe that the Church is the body of Christ?
Why? Scripture DOES teach that the church is His body:
1 Cor 12:27
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Eph 5:30
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
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<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 4:13:50 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 880
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quote:
So how old are you?
Easy now. Listen to Ps103. No more name calling. : )
------------------
quote:
Why? Scripture DOES teach that the church is His body:
As I explained to Beanteaser, it seems contradictory to me to accept the figurative language of the Church being the Body of Christ as literal, while taking the figurative language of the Church as the Bride of Christ as merely figurative.
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 4:17:17 PM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 277
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From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
So how old are you?
Easy now. Listen to Ps103. No more name calling. : )
I know, I couldn't help it.
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 4:22:15 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1240
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Why? Scripture DOES teach that the church is His body:
As I explained to Beanteaser, it seems contradictory to me to accept the figurative language of the Church being the Body of Christ as literal, while taking the figurative language of the Church as the Bride of Christ as merely figurative.
The problem is that Scripture teaches “the Church being the Body of Christ”, NOT “the Church as the Bride of Christ”, which is the whole point of this OP.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 4:42:24 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1240
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Yesterday I ran into a guy I know to be an “elder” in a local assembly. I asked him to read Revelation 21 to tell me who/what “the bride, the Lamb’s wife” is.
Right after reading verse 9 he closed his Bible. He didn’t read verse 10. Then he began to parrot much of what I have read in commentaries about this added doctrine.
On two more occasions I simply asked him to read verse 10. He refused, and here’s a guy who just finished a sermon a few minutes earlier.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 4:46:49 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 880
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quote:
The problem is that Scripture teaches “the Church being the Body of Christ”, NOT “the Church as the Bride of Christ”, which is the whole point of this OP.
You ignored my point and simply repeated your belief. We know your opinion on this. I want to know why you are willing to accept one figurative language as literal, but deny a literal interpretation of another figurative language.
quote:
Yesterday I ran into a guy I know to be an “elder” in a local assembly. I asked him to read Revelation 21 to tell me who/what “the bride, the Lamb’s wife” is.
Right after reading verse 9 he closed his Bible. He didn’t read verse 10. Then he began to parrot much of what I have read in commentaries about this added doctrine.
On two more occasions I simply asked him to read verse 10. He refused, and here’s a guy who just finished a sermon a few minutes earlier.
Jimbo and I have both read Revelation 21 in its entirely. I don't see why you're bothering to mention this.
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 4:50:54 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1240
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
The problem is that Scripture teaches “the Church being the Body of Christ”, NOT “the Church as the Bride of Christ”, which is the whole point of this OP.
You ignored my point and simply repeated your belief. We know your opinion on this. I want to know why you are willing to accept one figurative language as literal, but deny a literal interpretation of another figurative language.
Not at all.
SCRIPTURE teaches that the church is Christ’s body, never His bride.
Again, the only mention EVER of “the bride, the Lamb’s wife” is in Revelation 21.
Christ never taught bridal theology, and neither did His apostles.
The Roman church “fathers” however did teach this from as early as the 4th century.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 5:12:29 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 880
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Not at all.
SCRIPTURE teaches that the church is Christ’s body, never His bride.
Again, the only mention EVER of “the bride, the Lamb’s wife” is in Revelation 21.
Christ never taught bridal theology, and neither did His apostles.
The Roman church “fathers” however did teach this from as early as the 4th century.
Explain why God calls Israel His bride in the OT, then.
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 5:24:52 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1240
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Not at all.
SCRIPTURE teaches that the church is Christ’s body, never His bride.
Again, the only mention EVER of “the bride, the Lamb’s wife” is in Revelation 21.
Christ never taught bridal theology, and neither did His apostles.
The Roman church “fathers” however did teach this from as early as the 4th century.
Explain why God calls Israel His bride in the OT, then.
Please provide the Scripture so we can discuss it.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 5:49:06 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 880
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Please provide the Scripture so we can discuss it.
Jeremiah 3.
Ezekiel 16.
Jeremiah 2.
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 5:54:16 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1240
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Please provide the Scripture so we can discuss it.
Jeremiah 3.
Ezekiel 16.
Jeremiah 2.
Please provide the exact references....
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 5:56:13 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 880
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Please provide the exact references....
Nope. Otherwise you'll read them out of context.
If I can read Revelation 21, you can read a few chapters in Jeremiah and Ezekiel.
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 6:09:23 PM
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Ps103
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Add Hosea to that.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 6:11:44 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 880
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Add Hosea to that.
Thank you! I was trying to remember which prophet that was, and it was escaping my memory. Good call. : )
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 6:27:24 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1240
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Not at all.
SCRIPTURE teaches that the church is Christ’s body, never His bride.
Again, the only mention EVER of “the bride, the Lamb’s wife” is in Revelation 21.
Christ never taught bridal theology, and neither did His apostles.
The Roman church “fathers” however did teach this from as early as the 4th century.
Explain why God calls Israel His bride in the OT, then.
Jer 3:14
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
(KJV)
Ezek 16:8-15
8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.
9 Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.
10 I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk.
11 I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.
12 And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.
13 Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.
14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.
15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
(KJV)
Above are some references.
It is true that Israel is quite often spoken of as an unfaithful wife, but what has that to do with the church?
Are you a replacement theologist?
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 7:37:31 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 880
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
It is true that Israel is quite often spoken of as an unfaithful wife, but what has that to do with the church?
Are you a replacement theologist?
I'm still pondering the question of replacement theology.
You don't think God has 2 wives, do you?
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: The Church IS the bride of Christ!!! - 6/30/2008 7:45:01 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1118
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Not at all.
SCRIPTURE teaches that the church is Christ’s body, never His bride.
Again, the only mention EVER of “the bride, the Lamb’s wife” is in Revelation 21.
Christ never taught bridal theology, and neither did His apostles.
The Roman church “fathers” however did teach this from as early as the 4th century.
Explain why God calls Israel His bride in the OT, then.
Jer 3:14
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
(KJV)
Ezek 16:8-15
8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.
9 Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.
10 I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk.
11 I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.
12 And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.
13 Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.
14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.
15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
(KJV)
Above are some references.
It is true that Israel is quite often spoken of as an unfaithful wife, but what has that to do with the church?
Are you a replacement theologist?
Replacement? No...But neither separatist!
Paul in Romans 11:16-21 tells us that the believing church is grafted onto the existing tree. We do not replace it, but neither are we seperate from the tree. We are one. As such, some promises given to the tree apply to us as well. Yet there are also differences when talking about different parts of the tree.
Some of God's promises to Israel also apply to us. Not because we replaced Israel, but because we are now one with them.
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