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RE: Homosexuality Article - 10/6/2008 5:25:36 PM
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solo_soprano22
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Well, there are people who are born with abnormalities. Whether or not there are more biological bases for SSA, we know humans have intrinsic defects other than that already. Are those mistakes? That's just part of living in a fallen world. Babies are born with chemical problems, genetic problems (like CF, Huntington's Disease, etc.)...some babies have no brains and die a few days after birth. Some are born missing a p53 gene and are destined to get cancer, but the question is when (has a name, but I can't remember it right now). There are some people with wrong chromosome numbers, giving rise to Down's....other genetic problems cause Kleinfelter's and Turner's Syndromes. Thare all all kinds of problems within people's bodies that they didn't cause themselves, but that affect, maim, alter, or kill them.
I'm using primary/secondary to mean intrinsic/extrinsic gender. I said it earlier in the thread, but that was probably pages ago. :) I forget in science it means something different so it's worth saying again.
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RE: Homosexuality Article - 10/6/2008 6:09:03 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
. Thare all all kinds of problems within people's bodies that they didn't cause themselves, but that affect, maim, alter, or kill them.
But none of those problems may be used as an excuse to sin.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Homosexuality Article - 10/6/2008 6:27:59 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
Well, there are people who are born with abnormalities. Whether or not there are more biological bases for SSA, we know humans have intrinsic defects other than that already. Are those mistakes? That's just part of living in a fallen world. Babies are born with chemical problems, genetic problems (like CF, Huntington's Disease, etc.)...some babies have no brains and die a few days after birth. Some are born missing a p53 gene and are destined to get cancer, but the question is when (has a name, but I can't remember it right now). There are some people with wrong chromosome numbers, giving rise to Down's....other genetic problems cause Kleinfelter's and Turner's Syndromes. Thare all all kinds of problems within people's bodies that they didn't cause themselves, but that affect, maim, alter, or kill them.
I'm using primary/secondary to mean intrinsic/extrinsic gender. I said it earlier in the thread, but that was probably pages ago. :) I forget in science it means something different so it's worth saying again.
So you're saying homosexuality is a genetic disorder? Akin to Down's Syndrome and CF?
Aaahhhh.....hmmmmm...interesting.
A genetic disorder that causes one to sin. Pedophilia, beastiality...same thing? Are those also caused by an "oops" in the gene pool?
Adultery? Alcoholism? Drug addiction? Porn addiction? Can these be explained the same way? Is anyone really responsible for their "special needs"?
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RE: Homosexuality Article - 10/6/2008 8:24:31 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
We are all born with a spiritual dna birth defect giving us a sin nature.
In other words, like criminals, we're all born with the capacity for wrong moral choices.
I totally agree with that.
And what's that called, I can't think of the word, where I child is murderous from the start? I think there are sins that...override any attempt at a moral choice?...from early childhood. I don't know why that is the case in some people and not in others.
So, are you wanting to resurrect the old born good or born bad debate? If some children are born murderous, is that going to be a significant number in the population? Not likely. If some children are born homosexual, wouldn't they be an equally small number? The gay rights lobby would have us believe that their numbers are higher. Even if there are sins that override moral choice, how many homosexuals have been raised in good homes, know what the Bible teaches about homosexuality, have an otherwise strong moral foundation, but engage in homosexual thoughts and behavior anyway?
quote:
Solosoprano: I think of it this way (from the scientific perspective, at least). Schizophrenics having an episode sometimes don't even remember it...they don't remember shooting or stabbing people when they were going through that. Biochemical problems cause all manner of bad things to happen to people's thoughts and subsequent actions. I just think there are different severities of brain disorders. A chemically-induced depression isn't on the same level as catatonic schizo or something like that (in my mind). I don't think things people do are always choices they made...I believe someone can be so out of whack (no fault of their own) that they're no longer the same person. They can't choose. I haven't seen many people like that, but I don't work in the field. I've seen a few.... one woman went into an episode and stabbed a girl; another shot up a bus...and then there are cases like that of Phineas Gage that tell us so very much. I don't think people always have a choice; it honestly depends on what's going on inside that person.
As someone who works in the criminal justice system and has dealt with the worst of the worst, heard nearly every excuse in the book, I find that far too often when people claim not to have memory of something they did, they're lying. While working with sex offenders, numerous offenders claimed they had no recollection of what happened. But, the polygraph being a component of treatment eventually reveals they not only remember, they planned events to set up the offense.
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I do understand why some think everything is as simple as choosing. I believe that there are other parts to the equation though...either you believe it or you don't. I don't care to argue it anymore because it doesn't get anywhere. I just want for people to think through everything before they make a judgement.
Likewise, I would also like for people to think everything through. I really don't have anything against studying the biology of the matter. My concern, as someone who works with people in the system, is that attorney's get hold of research findings and use them to justify the actions of their client.
My experience from having lived a promiscuous lifestyle and from working with offenders is that there is a lot of thought that goes into the act of sex. It begins in the mind. It begins with fantasy and then progresses toward setting up fantasy to meet reality. The phisiolgical response, when a sex act is completed, seems to override moral judgment and, all too often people will pursue the pleasure of the flesh despite knowing what they're doing is morally wrong.
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And I do not believe that all things humans do are conscious choices made by that real person.
If you ever get to be an expert witness, defense attorneys are going to love you and pay you big bucks.
Smasiero, welcome to the forums and thank you for your input.
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RE: Homosexuality Article - 10/6/2008 9:01:31 PM
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stellaluna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
We are all born with a spiritual dna birth defect giving us a sin nature.
In other words, like criminals, we're all born with the capacity for wrong moral choices.
I totally agree with that.
And what's that called, I can't think of the word, where I child is murderous from the start? I think there are sins that...override any attempt at a moral choice?...from early childhood. I don't know why that is the case in some people and not in others.
So, are you wanting to resurrect the old born good or born bad debate? If some children are born murderous, is that going to be a significant number in the population? Not likely. If some children are born homosexual, wouldn't they be an equally small number? The gay rights lobby would have us believe that their numbers are higher. Even if there are sins that override moral choice, how many homosexuals have been raised in good homes, know what the Bible teaches about homosexuality, have an otherwise strong moral foundation, but engage in homosexual thoughts and behavior anyway?
Totally, totally!!! I've never bought into the idea that every homosexual is born that way and I've never bought into the high percentages handed out by pro-gay groups. But if we can talk about 40 chimeras, then I think we can talk about a thousand people who were possibly born gay. (I just grabbed that number out of the air.)
quote:
quote:
I do understand why some think everything is as simple as choosing. I believe that there are other parts to the equation though...either you believe it or you don't. I don't care to argue it anymore because it doesn't get anywhere. I just want for people to think through everything before they make a judgement.
Likewise, I would also like for people to think everything through. I really don't have anything against studying the biology of the matter. My concern, as someone who works with people in the system, is that attorney's get hold of research findings and use them to justify the actions of their client.
Yes, that is a definite danger and misrepresentation of the truth.
quote:
My experience from having lived a promiscuous lifestyle and from working with offenders is that there is a lot of thought that goes into the act of sex. It begins in the mind. It begins with fantasy and then progresses toward setting up fantasy to meet reality. The phisiolgical response, when a sex act is completed, seems to override moral judgment and, all too often people will pursue the pleasure of the flesh despite knowing what they're doing is morally wrong.
I agree with you there as well.
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RE: Homosexuality Article - 10/6/2008 9:19:42 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2478
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
Well, there are people who are born with abnormalities. Whether or not there are more biological bases for SSA, we know humans have intrinsic defects other than that already. Are those mistakes? That's just part of living in a fallen world. Babies are born with chemical problems, genetic problems (like CF, Huntington's Disease, etc.)...some babies have no brains and die a few days after birth. Some are born missing a p53 gene and are destined to get cancer, but the question is when (has a name, but I can't remember it right now). There are some people with wrong chromosome numbers, giving rise to Down's....other genetic problems cause Kleinfelter's and Turner's Syndromes. Thare all all kinds of problems within people's bodies that they didn't cause themselves, but that affect, maim, alter, or kill them.
I'm using primary/secondary to mean intrinsic/extrinsic gender. I said it earlier in the thread, but that was probably pages ago. :) I forget in science it means something different so it's worth saying again.
So you're saying homosexuality is a genetic disorder? Akin to Down's Syndrome and CF?
Aaahhhh.....hmmmmm...interesting.
A genetic disorder that causes one to sin. Pedophilia, beastiality...same thing? Are those also caused by an "oops" in the gene pool?
Adultery? Alcoholism? Drug addiction? Porn addiction? Can these be explained the same way? Is anyone really responsible for their "special needs"?
I'm talking mostly about SSA, and I feel that if someone is intrinsically the opposite sex of their genitals, they're being their true selves by going with what they're made of intrinsically. If we look on the outside and try to dictate what they are just by that, we may be wrong.
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RE: Homosexuality Article - 10/7/2008 8:08:03 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
I'm talking mostly about SSA, and I feel that if someone is intrinsically the opposite sex of their genitals, they're being their true selves by going with what they're made of intrinsically. If we look on the outside and try to dictate what they are just by that, we may be wrong.
From a morality and etinics standpoint; if I was conflicted about which gender to have sex with (for whatever reason) and knew that one choice would be a sin, not did not know which choice was the sin; I would remain celebate.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Homosexuality Article - 10/7/2008 11:20:52 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentricquote:
those who have the opinion that such a thing cannot happen is operating out of a non-biblical world view. Or non-Charismatic/Pentecostal worldview... Your so-called non charismatic/pentecostal worldview that does not include actions of spiritual entities is not in line with biblical truth.
Just because one is born again does not mean they have the right world view.
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RE: Homosexuality Article - 10/7/2008 1:11:58 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
[
Yes the range of chosen sin is wike and far-reaching.
I do not know why some choose to be homosexuals, and others choose to be gossipers; I only know that all choose some sin that separates them form God, and Jesus is the only answer to fix that separation.
Thanks
RC
RC that is exactly how i feel abou the matter. Everyone is born with something that will make them desire sin. Because we all were born depraved and with a sin nature that will act out in one way or another.
heterosexual people have to keep themselves pure as do homosexual people, the only difference i see is that one chooses attraction with same sex, the other chooses the opposite sex.. Each must remain celibate until they are married. the homosexual person will say they cant legally get married. Well then, they have to do what all single and divorced persons have to do - stay celibate.
if its God's will to remain celibate for 1 week or 1 lifetime, or 20 years, He will give that person the gift of singleness.
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RE: Homosexuality Article - 10/7/2008 1:46:22 PM
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backrowbaptist
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On the whole "born gay" question, my thinking has always been that there has to be something in the brain chemistry, maybe genetic or psychological, or both, that would give someone, especially a male, the predisposition to engage in homosexuality.
I don't have a problem with that Biblically because of Romans 9, where Paul lays out a whole rationale for God creating someone with a propensity towards sin and yet condemning them. quote:
Rom. 9;19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use
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RE: Homosexuality Article - 10/7/2008 2:02:37 PM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentricquote:
those who have the opinion that such a thing cannot happen is operating out of a non-biblical world view. Or non-Charismatic/Pentecostal worldview... Your so-called non charismatic/pentecostal worldview that does not include actions of spiritual entities is not in line with biblical truth.
Just because one is born again does not mean they have the right world view.
Oh, I believe spiritual entities are very active in the world, but I don't see a demon in every bush.
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RE: Homosexuality Article - 10/7/2008 3:26:31 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Oh, I believe spiritual entities are very active in the world, but I don't see a demon in every bush. Neither do I, but he really makes me wonder sometimes (Bush, that is)
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RE: Homosexuality Article - 10/7/2008 3:32:00 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Oh, I believe spiritual entities are very active in the world, but I don't see a demon in every bush. Neither do I, but he really makes me wonder sometimes (Bush, that is)
Ooooooo...booooo....hisssssss
Bad, bad, ugly, rude, unChristian pun! 
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RE: Homosexuality Article - 10/7/2008 7:51:17 PM
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Marcus.
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When in my fallen state I wish God wouldn't have declared something evil or sin, I remember I am influenced by sin and can't see it His way. I trust the only One Who can be trusted on right and wrong, and pray to ignore the corruption that seeks to influence me.
It's the same old temptation from the Garden. Did God really say...... Jesus' answer was yes 2000 years ago. There is no better testimony still.
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RE: Homosexuality Article - 10/24/2008 7:33:15 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Oh, I believe spiritual entities are very active in the world, but I don't see a demon in every bush. Neither do I, but he really makes me wonder sometimes (Bush, that is)
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Perspectives/Default.aspx?id=297506
But there is another questionable character associated with Obama, and there's no denying the relationship this time. This questionable character is Kevin Jennings. Jennings is the founder of GLSEN -- the Gay, Lesbian, and Straight Education Network. Jennings is now a fundraising co-chair for the Obama campaign.
It's Kevin Jennings you have to thank for the fact that "gay" clubs exist in many schools across the country today. Also thanks to Jennings, GLSEN sponsors the so-called "Day of Silence" in thousands of schools across America, when students are encouraged to take a vow of silence to show solidarity with their LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgendered) classmates. And courtesy of GLSEN's website, you can get a list of recommended books for every age group, starting with kindergarten, to introduce children to the subject of homosexuality.
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Election2008/Default.aspx?id=294520
LG
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RE: Homosexuality Article - 10/30/2008 4:22:57 PM
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drussell52
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
When in my fallen state I wish God wouldn't have declared something evil or sin, I remember I am influenced by sin and can't see it His way. I trust the only One Who can be trusted on right and wrong, and pray to ignore the corruption that seeks to influence me.
It's the same old temptation from the Garden. Did God really say...... Jesus' answer was yes 2000 years ago. There is no better testimony still.
Marcus, you hit the nail on the head, the inability to see something as a sin, something separating one from God, can be an action or even an attitude. My wife and I have been reading the book of Proverbs together and did chapter 8 today. Ideally want to be in sync with the Master as things are depicted there, but sometimes get the I want my way, and sync with the Master later on. I was drawn to this thread by the person who posted on General Faith, wanting help with same sex attraction and being a believer, never found the post or responses, but read one from 2005 by someone who encouraged loving the sinner, encouraging them to come to faith, and let the Spirit work in that/those individuals. She pointed out there's a fine line between condoning and condemning this or any sin. What happened to they will no we are Christians by our love? We are so quick to examine to the enth degree, that it almost seems to work against us. Jesus won sinners by lovingly correcting them and does us too. Like Jars of Clay sing, When sins and fears prevailing rise, and fainting hope almost expires, Jesus to thee I lift mine eyes." For some acting on SSA may be due to lack of direction from some period of their life, brain chemistry, will, or as stated in the very beginning, inability to internally see what's better for that person. The AA folk often proclaim, "Accept for the grace of God, go I." "Only a power greater than ourself can restore us to sanity." Praise God his mercy is limitless at this point in time.. Help us all with our besetting sin dear Savior, we have one, two, or several..
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RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/3/2008 3:49:18 PM
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Marcus.
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From the News thread. Moving the discussion here.
quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
What does consent have to do with morality?
Our assent or lack of it doesn't change good and evil as God defines it.
As far as the government is concerned, a marriage is a contract between two consenting adults. Having married people (and been married), I can tell you that the government is more concerned about whether the witnesses' ZIP code is entered in the correct box on the form than any notions of morality. As long as they have the form filled out correctly, it's a marriage.
However, in order to enter into such a contract, you have to be a consenting adult. Children can't get married (at least not without parental permission). Animals can't get married. Any suggestion that gay marriage is a slippery slope toward pederasty and bestiality is just silly.
I thought the discussion was over homosexuality. Marriage is God's creation BTW, not the state's. Marriage predates any governments. I wouldn't think that equating homosexuality to pedophilia or beastiality to be silly. God does equate homosexual activity to other sexual perversions of His Will, you should know that. Besides there are pedophile groups within the homosexual political groups, NAMBLA for one.
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RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/3/2008 4:17:29 PM
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TheosCentric
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God also equates homosexuality with murder and lying.
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RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/3/2008 5:00:58 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1064
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
From the News thread. Moving the discussion here.
quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
What does consent have to do with morality?
Our assent or lack of it doesn't change good and evil as God defines it.
As far as the government is concerned, a marriage is a contract between two consenting adults. Having married people (and been married), I can tell you that the government is more concerned about whether the witnesses' ZIP code is entered in the correct box on the form than any notions of morality. As long as they have the form filled out correctly, it's a marriage.
However, in order to enter into such a contract, you have to be a consenting adult. Children can't get married (at least not without parental permission). Animals can't get married. Any suggestion that gay marriage is a slippery slope toward pederasty and bestiality is just silly.
I thought the discussion was over homosexuality. Marriage is God's creation BTW, not the state's. Marriage predates any governments.
If so, God can take care of marriage, then. But the law deals with the government and its relationship to its citizens. With or without government laws regarding marriage, churches would do whatever they liked and good for them. Some of them marry same-sex couples, some don't. But inasmuch as there are laws relating to marriage, then the government has to get involved. Not that long ago, wives couldn't own property and were not even legal individuals. Blackstone (1765) describes it thus:
quote:
By marriage, the husband and wife are one person in law: that is, the very being or legal existence of the woman is suspended during the marriage, or at least is incorporated and consolidated into that of the husband; under whose wing, protection, and cover, she performs every thing.
As society changed, we changed the laws regarding marriage. I'm sure there were conservatives who bemoaned the fact that these newfangled laws were changing traditional marriage, and that God had commanded that man be the head of his wife. But these laws didn't change any bibles or change any religions. They just changed the laws of society in order to better reflect the shared values of that society. In the future, society will continue to change laws in that fashion.
quote:
God does equate homosexual activity to other sexual perversions of His Will, you should know that.
I know there are Bible verses along those lines, but that is irrelevant to me. Of course, it is highly relevant for many users of this forum. Nevertheless, I wish more people here could divorce (heh) the idea of marriage as a religious institution from the idea of marriage as a civil institution.
quote:
Besides there are pedophile groups within the homosexual political groups, NAMBLA for one.
NAMBLA is condemned by GLAAD and other gay rights organizations. Regardless, gay marriage still requires adults to sign the marriage license (or minors with their parents' approval). Gay marriage has nothing to do with pedophilia.
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RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/3/2008 5:23:21 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
I know there are Bible verses along those lines, but that is irrelevant to me.
Why is your position not a suprise to me?
quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
Gay marriage has nothing to do with pedophilia.
Gay marriage is a demonic perversion, and there is no terminus with involvement with he divil; so yes it does all fit into the same piknik basket.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/3/2008 6:06:08 PM
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Marcus.
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quote:
I know there are Bible verses along those lines, but that is irrelevant to me. Of course, it is highly relevant for many users of this forum.
I didn't realize that you don't believe the Christ.
quote:
Nevertheless, I wish more people here could divorce (heh) the idea of marriage as a religious institution from the idea of marriage as a civil institution.
As long as I am a believer that won't be possible. I cannot approve of something God calls evil.
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RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/3/2008 6:29:29 PM
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zamdad
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However, in order to enter into such a contract, you have to be a consenting adult. Children can't get married (at least not without parental permission). Animals can't get married. Any suggestion that gay marriage is a slippery slope toward pederasty and bestiality is just silly.
It's funny how the slippery slope argument always gets called silly. We're so far down the slope now that too many people have forgotten what was at the top of the slope. We have "normalized" one form of sexual perversion. There are swingers and B&D folks and others who have their preferred erotic interests. As a society, we have developed a "whatever floats your boat" mentality. We know it goes against what we believe in, but who are we to say it's wrong? And, for the most part we justify this by saying it doesn't affect me. But, sooner or later it hits home. We are not islands unto ourselves. One persons behavior has a far reaching impact on many people around them. Ultimately, homosexuality, like other forms of deviant sexuality, is about self. It's about satisfying a momentary selfish desire via the use of another person.
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