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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2005 6:19:32 PM
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Back_Again
Posts: 24
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PerfectPatience
If one can say that Homosexuality is a choice, then ask yourself this. Is being 'Straight' a choice?
You are asking this question under the assumption that homosexuality is a genetic phenomenom. There is, and never has been any proof to support this. However, with that being said, it is natural human behaviour to rebel against authority. Homosexuality is like any other sin, a blatant slap in God's face.
I might as well say, well heck, it is only natural for me to be attracted to the opposite sex so lusting after them must be natural too! It is a weak justification. The problem is that people try and justify and water down their sins so they don't feel as guilty.
On a side note, I find it rather funny that homosexuality is such a big topic for debate but no one ever jumps on things like gossip, commonlaw status, pornography, etc etc. Maybe it is because no one wants to look in the darker corner's of their own closets.
_____________________________
The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. -- Sir Richard Francis Burton (1821 - 1890)
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2005 6:23:02 PM
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happydays
Posts: 3238
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quote:
On a side note, I find it rather funny that homosexuality is such a big topic for debate but no one ever jumps on things like gossip, commonlaw status, pornography, etc etc. Maybe it is because no one wants to look in the darker corner's of their own closets.
People "jump on" them all the time, and there are threads here that are about those sins. This one happens to be about homosexuality, therefore the discussion.
< Message edited by happydays -- 7/22/2005 10:14:25 PM >
_____________________________
"When a successful figure becomes especially prominent and conspicuous, the majority give way to the idolization of success. They become blind to right and wrong, truth and untruth, fair play and foul play."
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, *Ethics*
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2005 6:28:46 PM
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Back_Again
Posts: 24
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quote:
ORIGINAL: happydays
People "jump on" them all the time, and there are threads here that are about those sins. This one happens to be about hoomosexuality, therefore the discussion.
the biggest thing I have noticed though, and the point I was trying to make, was that there seems to be an overwhelming attempt to make those sins seem lukewarm compared to others.
_____________________________
The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. -- Sir Richard Francis Burton (1821 - 1890)
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2005 10:13:56 PM
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Georgia-Peach
Posts: 1971
Joined: 6/2/2005
From: Georgia on my mind
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quote:
On a side note, I find it rather funny that homosexuality is such a big topic for debate but no one ever jumps on things like gossip, commonlaw status, pornography, etc etc. Maybe it is because no one wants to look in the darker corner's of their own closets.
That is so true  One sin is not greater then another, sin is sin!!!
_____________________________
Chelle
<------- My Heart <3
"Friends are like bras: close to the heart and there for support."
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 1:10:49 AM
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evanmay
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From: New Orleans, LA
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I would like to post something on this topic from this perspective: a person in the sin of homosexuality gets saved, and, knowing it is sin, puts that sin to death. There is actually a person in my church who was in this chategory, and it was such an amazing testimony of the captivating grace of God and its sanctifying power.
However, often when it comes to one of these categories of sin, the ones that so often dominate people's lives (homosexuality, alcoholism, sensuality/lust, drugs), we observe the weakness and difficulty involved in overcoming these sins and from that we draw our doctrine. Why are there Christians who think their sin of homosexuality is ok? Its not necessarily because they want to hold onto their sin, rather, it's just so difficult to get rid of it. And if the Bible is seemingly ambiguous about the topic (tho I believe it is quite clear), they re-define the issue rather than conforming to what the Bible says.
Human weakness is taught all over the Bible, but holiness and sanctification is taught much more. There is Romans 7, but it is preceded by Romans 6 and is placed within the context of..well..the Bible. There are some issues in our lives that bring such a struggle. But then the Bible comes along and says things like "how can we who died to sin still live in it?" (Romans 6:2). Here is our text:
Romans 13 11Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. 12The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy. 14But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.
Paul seems so "matter of fact" about this issue. Does Paul know what he's talking about? He says, "lets walk properly as in the daytime" and "lets cast off the works of darkness". The day and night illustration shows two things. First, it shows the urgency. Back in Biblical times, where there was no electricity, you couldn't waste any daylight. The sun would rise, and, with no time to loose, you better be out in the field, which is why he says, "you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep". Our lives are to be about the building and advancing of the Kingdom of God.
Second, you dress differently in daytime than you do at night. At night, you wear pajamas. In the day, you wear work clothes. He gives the illustration, "day is here, change your clothes. Cast off the works of darkness". Paul, how can you say this? Paul, you are talking about drunkeness, sexual immorality, and sensuality, such domninating categories of our lives! And you are saying to simply stop sinning as if we are changing out of our pajamas? How can you be so "matter of fact" about these issues?
Actually, Paul has quite the habit of being "matter of fact".
Ephesians 4 17Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds.
Ephesians 5 3But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
James 1 21Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
1 Peter 2 1So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander.
Titus 2 11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,
Colossians 3 5Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6On account of these the wrath of God is coming. 7In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. 8But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. 9Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.
Paul basically says, "you know those sins, sexual immorality, homosexuality, and drunkeness. You know those? Yeah those. Put those off. Just put them off".
You see, when we call sin what it is (sin), we receive keys to our locks. The Bible doesn't tell us how to deal with an eating disorder. It does, however, tell us how to deal with sinful, prideful desires that make us want to be physically beautiful. The Bible doesn't tell us how to deal with a genetic disorder. It does, however, tell us how to deal with sin.
All these sins can fall into an "addictive" category. Might that be that sin is addictive?
John 8 34Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.
2 Peter 2 19They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
Yet nothing is new under the sun. Sin hasn't changed with the invention of the internet. Put it off!
The good news is, God has a remedy.
THE 2 P's
Practicals: ..."make no provision for the flesh". If your eye causes you to stumble, cut it out. Is it too severe to merely get rid of the TV, get rid of the wrong friends? Do you really want to be free?
Passions ...find the pleasures of God
Psalm 16 11You make known to me the path of life;
in your presence there is fullness of joy;
at your right hand are pleasures forevermore.
_____________________________
********For I dare not stand on my righteousness, My very hope rests on what Christ has done, and I come by the blood********
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 4:18:04 AM
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Georgiagirl
Posts: 63
Joined: 6/28/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: joint heir
Everyone has a different bent to different sin...
One may lean to gossip or anger or jealousy...or pride...this will include those that are naturally drawn to sexual sins whether hetero or homosexual....
My personal theory is that sin bents are passed from one generation to another...just original sin is passed...that is why it appears to be genetic.....and maybe it is genetic....but it is still wrong....and we still are saved through Christ....and marked with the indwelling of the Spirit...
and we know walk in that Spirit and not in the flesh...
sin is sin...it is all deadly...homosexuality included...but I do think that Christians overreact to this one sin and underreact to others like adultery, divorce, pride, gossip etc
Now this'll preach!!!
_____________________________
Though my father and mother forsake me, the LORD will receive me.
Psalm 27:10
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 4:59:09 PM
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happydays
Posts: 3238
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quote:
I don't agree at all. We just don't have political and social movements to justify and excuse those sins. It seems we now have to prove that homosexuality is wrong. Seldom do I hear from people attempting to prove the others are not sinful.
Exactly. there are not
"Gossiper's Pride parades", or "adulter's for adoption" groups out there. Homosexuality is shoved in your face, and if you do not accept it as a lifestyle, not a sin, you are labeled a homophobe. Christians are being forced to either stand against it, or cave in to it.
_____________________________
"When a successful figure becomes especially prominent and conspicuous, the majority give way to the idolization of success. They become blind to right and wrong, truth and untruth, fair play and foul play."
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, *Ethics*
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 6:55:19 PM
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Back_Again
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Georgia-Peach
That is so true One sin is not greater then another, sin is sin!!!
That was my point.
_____________________________
The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. -- Sir Richard Francis Burton (1821 - 1890)
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 7:03:09 PM
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Back_Again
Posts: 24
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quote:
ORIGINAL: happydays
Homosexuality is shoved in your face
So is Christianity.
quote:
you are labeled a homophobe.
There is no such word as "homophobe". Homo means one or the same and phobia means to have a fear of.
quote:
Christians are being forced to either stand against it, or cave in to it.
No, we could just choose to accept that this world is sinful by nature and that it is in natural progression of a fallen world. How does someone's homosexual lifestyle affect you on a daily basis? How is it any of your buisness? We aren't being forced into anything at all. I don't see any church being driven by law to marry gay couples. I don't see homosexual marriages being forced to be accpeted in our Christian community. The problem is that Christianity on a whole has missed the boat on Christ's commands (in my opinion anyway). We are so worried about political and social agendas that we forget to work on our won agenda, and that is to love people. That is all we are here for, to love those who are lost and show that, through us, that Christ loves them.
_____________________________
The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. -- Sir Richard Francis Burton (1821 - 1890)
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 7:31:04 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2132
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Back_Again
quote:
ORIGINAL: happydays
Homosexuality is shoved in your face
So is Christianity.
Methinks you're being defensive.
quote:
quote:
you are labeled a homophobe.
There is no such word as "homophobe". Homo means one or the same and phobia means to have a fear of.
It is a word that has wide currency whether there is such thing or not. Typically, it is either homophobic or homophobia. The "homo" term is
quote:
quote:
Christians are being forced to either stand against it, or cave in to it.
No, we could just choose to accept that this world is sinful by nature and that it is in natural progression of a fallen world. How does someone's homosexual lifestyle affect you on a daily basis? How is it any of your buisness? We aren't being forced into anything at all. I don't see any church being driven by law to marry gay couples. I don't see homosexual marriages being forced to be accpeted in our Christian community. The problem is that Christianity on a whole has missed the boat on Christ's commands (in my opinion anyway). We are so worried about political and social agendas that we forget to work on our won agenda, and that is to love people. That is all we are here for, to love those who are lost and show that, through us, that Christ loves them.
Have you checked with Canada?
There have already been churches or at least parachurch organizations who are being pressured to not discriminate against gays in hiring. There has already been law passed regarding churches in Canada. It has already been passed or will be passed that churches will lose their tax-exempt status unless they accept this.
Elementary age children are being taught in some states that homosexuality is "just another life style."
Our agenda is to preach Christ. Yes, there is the matter of love. But, the Bible is very clear that "love" should never compel us to accept Christians' who insist on keeping their sin.
"I wrote you not to associate with any so-called brother if he should be an immoral person...not even to eat with such a one." (I Cor 5:11)
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 7:44:10 PM
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Back_Again
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Methinks you're being defensive.
Youthinks whatever you want. Truth of the matter is that a lot of people can't stand us because we are "pushy" and "in your face".
quote:
Have you checked with Canada?
Well considering that I live there, yes I have checked it.
quote:
There have already been churches or at least parachurch organizations who are being pressured to not discriminate against gays in hiring. There has already been law passed regarding churches in Canada. It has already been passed or will be passed that churches will lose their tax-exempt status unless they accept this.
Well I can say that this isn't true at all. There is a small group of homosexual activists here that have a major grudge against the church (and rightly so to some extent because "we" handled ourselves ver poorly in the fight against bill C-250). This group has suggested and has tried to get a bill rallied that falls along similar lines that you have suggested. I have serious doubts that it will be passed.
quote:
Elementary age children are being taught in some states that homosexuality is "just another life style."
Thats funny because IT IS ANOTHER LIFESTYLE!
quote:
Our agenda is to preach Christ. Yes, there is the matter of love. But, the Bible is very clear that "love" should never compel us to accept Christians' who insist on keeping their sin.
Christ is love, He was and is the very definition of it so like I said, we are here to love. As far as the "matter of love", it is the only thing that we are too do, hence it isn't really a "matter" but our primary madate. As far as "accepting Christians" who keep sinning... all of us might as well not talk to each other as we all sin on a daily basis.
_____________________________
The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. -- Sir Richard Francis Burton (1821 - 1890)
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 7:46:08 PM
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Back_Again
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: karen_wizzabeth
Not yet, but the dominoes are being put in place for such a thing.
Perhaps some people have missed something. These so called "dominoes" are all called sinful progression. Those blocks are all being set up for one last brawl anyway so why even try to fight it. Just live ad love the way Christ told us and don't worry what others are doing or not doing.
_____________________________
The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. -- Sir Richard Francis Burton (1821 - 1890)
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 7:57:26 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2132
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Back_Again
quote:
Elementary age children are being taught in some states that homosexuality is "just another life style."
Thats funny because IT IS ANOTHER LIFESTYLE!
It is an unnatural lifestyle.
God condemns it. Nature condemns it.
And without being too graphic, it ought to be obvious that gay people are not physically complementary.
quote:
quote:
Our agenda is to preach Christ. Yes, there is the matter of love. But, the Bible is very clear that "love" should never compel us to accept Christians' who insist on keeping their sin.
Christ is love, He was and is the very definition of it so like I said, we are here to love. As far as the "matter of love", it is the only thing that we are too do, hence it isn't really a "matter" but our primary madate. As far as "accepting Christians" who keep sinning... all of us might as well not talk to each other as we all sin on a daily basis.
Sorry, but it is not biblical to love sin nor to condone sin.
I don't think you are familiar with the gospel or at the very least you don't seem to understand the biblical description of it. You are confusing the mandate to love people with the core meaning of the gospel. And loving people does not compel us to accept their lifestyle as biblical. It does compel us to warn them that all people are under God's judgment without Jesus Christ.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 8:02:16 PM
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TexasPatriot
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Joined: 7/7/2005
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I don't know how homosexuals come to believe they are homosexual. To me it is irrelevant. The sin is in the behavior. A celibate "homosexual" is not sinning. The acting out of the desire is the problem.
What causes me greater concern, socially, is the bleeding of this issue to other areas. For example, part of the psychiatric community now believes a person is whatever sex they believe themselves to be. For example, if a woman takes testosterone and lives her life as a man, the courts are allowing expert medical testimony supporting the notion that "she" is now a "he," and should be considered so legally. Major surgery is not required, just taking hormones and living the life as a man.
I think this is absolutely preposterous! To say that this woman is legally a man is a step that leaves reason behind. Why? Because if one checks the DNA, the person is X/Y, thus is biologically female. And, all that has to happen to change "him" back to "her" is stopping popping the hormones and to re-enter a female lifestyle.
Human beings cannot change gender on a whim. Not even in a well-thought out, long drawn out plan. "Tolerance" has crossed over to a place where it calls biology and nature incorrect if a human"wants" it that way.
_____________________________
"For things, good Lord, that we pray for, give us the grace to labor for."
Thomas More, 16th century
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 8:06:28 PM
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happydays
Posts: 3238
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Scripture calls it a reprobate mind.
_____________________________
"When a successful figure becomes especially prominent and conspicuous, the majority give way to the idolization of success. They become blind to right and wrong, truth and untruth, fair play and foul play."
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, *Ethics*
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 8:17:57 PM
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Back_Again
Posts: 24
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
It is an unnatural lifestyle.
God condemns it. Nature condemns it.
Sin isn't natural, so what is your point.
quote:
Sorry, but it is not biblical to love sin nor to condone sin.
I don't think you are familiar with the gospel or at the very least you don't seem to understand the biblical description of it. You are confusing the mandate to love people with the core meaning of the gospel. And loving people does not compel us to accept their lifestyle as biblical. It does compel us to warn them that all people are under God's judgment without Jesus Christ.
Well, I may not be a theologian but, yes I understand the gospel just fine thankyou. I am not condoning homosexuality, it just irks me when "christians" are militant about crusading against some things and leave others grey.
_____________________________
The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. -- Sir Richard Francis Burton (1821 - 1890)
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 8:53:21 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2132
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Back_Again
Sin isn't natural, so what is your point.
When you said it was just another life-style, there was the implication that it wasn't wrong. If you didn't mean that, then I misunderstood you.
quote:
Well, I may not be a theologian but, yes I understand the gospel just fine thankyou. I am not condoning homosexuality, it just irks me when "christians" are militant about crusading against some things and leave others grey.
I volunteer in a christian telephone ministry and I don't think I've ever attempted to "gray out" anything that the Bible clearly condemns. There are areas that are gray, areas which in which the Bible is not clear. During the last week, I have had communication with two people struggling with the issue of homosexuality. I didn't threaten them and I did explain that God loves them in spite of the difficulties with which they struggle. They never once told me that I sounded hateful or mean-spirited.
I don't attend political rallies and never have. I have never signed a petition against homosexuality. I have bisexual living next door to me. We've never once had a cross word that I remember. The only thing lately that I've done to offend her is to mow her lawn when she didn't want me to.
I have probably no less than 2-3 gay couples living on my block.
But, the central issue of the gospel is that Christ died and rose again to pay for our sins. Mine and yours and everyone else's. Sometimes, to get the message of the gospel across, it is important to address that all of us are under judgment without Christ. He will not let people off because he loves them. He will let them off if they accept Christ.
And, living for God does involve repentance from known sin. The Bible is very clear on that too. I cannot candy-coat that.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 8:54:30 PM
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threeandme
Posts: 9
Joined: 7/18/2005
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quote:
I am not condoning homosexuality, it just irks me when "christians" are militant about crusading against some things and leave others grey.
Hi all! I am new to the forum.
I can understand your point Back_Again, but have you considered that God made all his children different, and with different interests and passions, so that we could "crusade" for his Kingdom as our convictions lead us? I mean, I may have a heart for children's issues, another Christian may care deeply for the elderly, another may be led to sacrifice mightily to spread the gospel in third-word nations, etc. I don't think that just because a Christian (or several for that matter) are outspoken about homosexuality but are silent about, say, gossiping, means that they are somehow being hypocritical.
I, too, am sometimes struck by how much "press," this sin has garnered, but look at what we're dealing with! Gay activists (and I want to make a distinction here between your "average" gay person and a gay activist), want to convince us of their "rights" while at the same time deny Christians our right--namely the right to speak out about the truths of our faith. Despite the talk of "tolerance," these activists are NOT tolerant of God's truth as presented by Christians and now even dare to invade God's church with their lies! What would you have Christians do? Live and let live doesn't seem like a good answer.
You wondered why Christians should even care. Well, I care because I live on this planet. At the risk of sounding like an alarmist, you mark my words. If "gay marriage" becomes legal in the US there will be NO going back. Without God's word as the standard to fall back on, we've got nothing. Polygamy, "marriage" between children and adults, "marriage" between close relatives, whatever, it will all be fair game.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 9:14:07 PM
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WizzyPigabeth
Posts: 1475
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: CTU Los Angeles
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Sin is too "natural." We are born with a sin nature.
In the bible, the reference "natural man" is the carnal or sinful man.
_____________________________
ZuZu's Petals
Read My Blog
"You do NOT want to try me...." -Jack
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 10:02:11 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2132
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: karen_wizzabeth
Sin is too "natural." We are born with a sin nature.
In the bible, the reference "natural man" is the carnal or sinful man.
I phrase it this way. It is typical for people to sin but sin isn't natural in the sense of being normal. I think the use of the term "natural" in the Bible as "natural man" doesn't mean natural in the sense of man in their natural God-given condition.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2005 10:12:32 PM
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WizzyPigabeth
Posts: 1475
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: CTU Los Angeles
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I disagree. Since the fall, the "normal" state of man is a sinful one; hense the need for a redeemer. If it were "normal" for us not to sin, then we could be able to conquer it ourselves, like it is "normal" to eat or behave in a certain way.
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