Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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Fritzpw_Admin -> Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 1:07:34 PM)

Homosexuality...

Are people born that way or if it is something that is learned?

Is it just the act that is sin or is the temptation a sin?

This is the One Stop thread for all discussion that revolves around the issue of homosexuality.

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Please do not use our Community to in any way promote or advocate the acceptability of same-sex unions/marriage, homosexual activity, or homosexual adoption rights.

For the sake of this discussion the following definitions will be used:

Homosexual ::
A person who engages in sexual relations with members of the same gender

SSA (Same Sex Attraction) ::
A person who struggles with being attracted to members of the same gender but abstains from engaging in sexual relations with them.

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Georgia-Peach -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 1:16:59 PM)

I do not believe that people are born an homosexual, I believe it is a choice. I do believe that homosexual tendencies/confusion of their sexuality can began to occure in children (ex: a boy wanting to dress and act like a girl at all times or vice versa) due to things that have occured in their enviroment. So I think it is a learned behavior whether intentionally taught or not. I believe like any other sin, this is something that can be overcome with prayer and God's help. I think homosexuality is a sin, but the temptation to me is not the sin. We are all tempted in one way or another and the sin is when we act on the temptation.



singinbeauty -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 3:08:01 PM)

I don't necessarily believe that homosexuality is a belief that is born into you but I don't think it is a choice either. I love my brother very much and have watched him grow into the man he is today. We had a life most people wouldn't want and I believe that the choices that others made affected the way my brother's life turned out just as it has affected mine.

My brother is gay. He came out of the closet about 4yrs ago but it was a long time coming. I don't know whether it is wrong or right and it's not for me to decide. This is something that is between God and him. Who my brother chooses to lay down with is his choosing. He has had a christian upbringing so he knows the teachings of the bible. I don't believe that my brother has conciously chosen this lifestyle but this is the natural progression in his life. It is not easy to just turn it off and forget it's there. It's not like you can just stay out of a bar so you don't drink or keep away from people with drugs so that you don't touch the stuff. This has to do with the heart because believe it or not these people's hearts choose people of the same gender.

You often read things in the bible and say that that ritual or that 'saying' is something that pertains to that time and place. What if (and I am just throwing this out there) that the things against homosexuality were written down by homo-phobes. *I know I am going to get flamed for that one*. I mean Paul obviously had something severely against marriage. He often said DON'T DO IT. Does that mean something is wrong with it? Maybe in HIS eyes but the bible often talks of love and spouses and the good that it brings.

I am one of those that believe that the bible has to be taken with a grain of salt. It was written by men and inspired by God with the Holy Spirit helping them along... How many times have you or someone you know believe that something you believe is from the Holy Spirit and therefore right only to find out later it was your own closed mind and not a correct interpretation?

Just my 2cents...



charityrose -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 3:14:01 PM)

I don't believe people are born gay. I believe homosexuality is a perverse spirit which can even be attached to children.



Sunnymom -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 3:21:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Georgia-Peach

I do not believe that people are born an homosexual, I believe it is a choice. I do believe that homosexual tendencies/confusion of their sexuality can began to occure in children (ex: a boy wanting to dress and act like a girl at all times or vice versa) due to things that have occured in their enviroment. So I think it is a learned behavior whether intentionally taught or not. I believe like any other sin, this is something that can be overcome with prayer and God's help. I think homosexuality is a sin, but the temptation to me is not the sin. We are all tempted in one way or another and the sin is when we act on the temptation.


I SO TOTALLY agree with you! [sm=thumbsup.gif]



Walker311 -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 3:32:32 PM)

I believe if you do not trust the word of God then you will not be able to make the big decisions like calling homosexuality both wrong and a sin. If homosexuals never hear or see that it is wrong, then they all will go to hell. Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. How will they know if they do not hear?



TheoJunkie -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 3:57:15 PM)

quote:

If homosexuals never hear or see that it is wrong, then they all will go to hell.


Not if they are Christian.

Homosexual behavior is not the unforgivable sin.

Further, there is a difference between "failing to conquer" and "denying the facts".

quote:

but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Your and my pet sins are also covered. Thanks be to the grace of God.



Sunnymom -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 4:01:38 PM)

I had a pet sin once- it got run over by a garbage truck.[8D]

I wonder why we call them 'pet sins'. Could make a good thread topic.



Walker311 -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 4:06:34 PM)

TheoJunkie,

quote:

Not if they are Christian


So you are saying that the gay lifestyle is ok if you are a Christian?

My post was mostly directed toward singingbeauty's disagreement with the bible and the attempt to waterdown what it says such as the insinuations that some of the writers of GOD'S word were homo-phobes.



happydays -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 4:31:58 PM)

It is a sin to have gay sexual relations. That's that.

I may have a deep desire to shoot the dummy at the McDonald's drive thru, that always gets my order wrong, but as a Christian, I make the decision to ignore temptaion and keep my gun under the seat. I will not murder, even though tempted.



happydays -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 5:31:18 PM)

Siginbeauty,
Your error is confusing judging sin with judging people. Different thing altogether.

It is not judging a person to say that homosexuality is sin. Maybe your real issue is the authority of the Bible.



joint heir -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 5:47:33 PM)

Everyone has a different bent to different sin...

One may lean to gossip or anger or jealousy...or pride...this will include those that are naturally drawn to sexual sins whether hetero or homosexual....

My personal theory is that sin bents are passed from one generation to another...just original sin is passed...that is why it appears to be genetic.....and maybe it is genetic....but it is still wrong....and we still are saved through Christ....and marked with the indwelling of the Spirit...

and we know walk in that Spirit and not in the flesh...

sin is sin...it is all deadly...homosexuality included...but I do think that Christians overreact to this one sin and underreact to others like adultery, divorce, pride, gossip etc



TheoJunkie -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 6:09:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Walker311

TheoJunkie,

quote:

Not if they are Christian


So you are saying that the gay lifestyle is ok if you are a Christian?


No sin is ok for a Christian, or anyone else on the planet for that matter.

It is inaccurate and potentially damaging to say that uncorrected homosexual behavior always results in hell. Unforgiven homosexual behavior always results in hell, as does unforgiven lying, unforgiven gossiping, unforgiven failure to tithe, unforgiven anger... and on and on.

Let me put it this way: The Christian has repented of Sin (the Christian lothes the concept of sin in general in his life). All Christians will eventually agree that Behavior X in their lives is a sin-- and hate it in themselves-- if indeed it is a sin and it has been demonstrated to them biblically. This is because the Holy Spirit guides and counsels all Christians to the Truth. The conviction of the Holy Spirit immediately results in the Christian struggling against Behavior X. However, the Christian's internal rejection of Behavor X does not necessarily translate immediately into a complete cessation of Behavior X. This is because the Holy Spirit works as He will, according to his good purpose and timing in each person's life.

However, as you I know agree, all Christians will remain sinful to some degree up until they die. Every Christian has a Behavior X that has not gone away as their brain waves for the last time. While they will certainly agree it is a sin and they will certainly wish it were not there-- i.e., they struggle with it-- the simple fact that it is still there does not mean they are unforgiven.



TheoJunkie -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 6:16:05 PM)

quote:

I will not murder, even though tempted


You don't struggle with murder.

It may be more helpful to use sin analogies such as alcoholism, gambling, gossiping, anger, smoking, and other addictions-- particularly addictions that seem to only harm the practicer of the behavior (or seem even to have no outward harmful effects at all).

quote:

sin bents are passed from one generation to another...just original sin is passed...that is why it appears to be genetic.....and maybe it is genetic


I don't agree that PARTICULAR sins activities are passed from one generation to another. However, I do agree that Sin (the effects of the Fall) are passed from one generation to another.

All sin is "genetic" in this regard-- in that all sin stems from the Fall.

In fact, that's why I don't care if they do prove homosexual behavior is "genetic" or "congenital". ALL sin is "genetic"/"congenital".

Snapping at my daughter when she was bugging me while I was trying to concentrate on something is passed on to me from Adam. I'm still guilty of it.

Humans are fallen. They all are bent. It doesn't excuse a one of us.



TheoJunkie -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 6:23:30 PM)

The reason why I push this issue so much is because one's position on homosexual behavior must logically (and biblically) be translated to ALL sins.

Why? 1) Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the single unforgivable sin. 2) Homosexual behavior is not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Therefore 3) Homosexual behavior is right up there with stealing candy from your little sister, as far as whether it was too heavy for the Cross to bear.



TheoJunkie -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 6:26:33 PM)

1 Cor 6:

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Paul was talking to justified believers. He would not waste his breath exhorting them on this, if they had already ceased the behavior.

1 Cor 1:

2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:

3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.



PerfectPatience -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 7:11:35 PM)

If one can say that Homosexuality is a choice, then ask yourself this. Is being 'Straight' a choice? Could you wake up one day and say " Well I am fed up with being attracted to the opposite sex, I think I am going to go and change." Is this possible? Some tend to look on just one side of a topic, something you can not help is not your fault.
If ones ambitions are to change and cant do you think God would turn His back?
In the book of Proverbs it says that there isnt any partiality in God. We all know lust is wrong and sex out of marriage is wrong, in which Homosexuals can fit into both catagorys, but if one substaind from these actions, would it be a sin to be who you are?



happydays -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 7:36:17 PM)

quote:

We all know lust is wrong and sex out of marriage is wrong, in which Homosexuals can fit into both catagorys, but if one substaind from these actions, would it be a sin to be who you are?


That is a question I don't think is clearly answered, only that participating in homosexual acts is sin, therefore, we are to abstain from doing so. To commit homosexual acts is a sin.



TheoJunkie -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 8:17:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PerfectPatience

If one can say that Homosexuality is a choice, then ask yourself this. Is being 'Straight' a choice? Could you wake up one day and say " Well I am fed up with being attracted to the opposite sex, I think I am going to go and change." Is this possible?


If God has said that being heterosexual was sinful and was not his intent for human behavior, then it would be possible to change from being heterosexual. Remember, God created human beings. Remember also, that the whole story of creation from Adam until now, is about God through his grace restoring the creation to himself. If "restoring the creation to himself" included getting people to repent from heterosexual behavior, then that would be the direction he would be pushing us.

quote:

something you can not help is not your fault.


There are two facts of the matter here:

1) No person can stop any sin without the help of God. (All sin is something that "we cannot help").
2) All sin is our fault.

quote:

If ones ambitions are to change and cant do you think God would turn His back?
In the book of Proverbs it says that there isnt any partiality in God. We all know lust is wrong and sex out of marriage is wrong, in which Homosexuals can fit into both catagorys, but if one substaind from these actions, would it be a sin to be who you are?


First, the bible only speaks of homosexual behavior as sinful. It doesn't mention homosexual temptation. Lust is lust, regardless of what the object of lust is-- and this is covered separately.

Second, the bible states that temptation is not a sin-- only that succumbing to temptation is. (Proof: Christ was tempted "but was without sin").

Therefore, abstaining from homosexual actions and not lusting, is all that the Bible calls us to do (on this particular subject).

HOWEVER: YES. It would be a sin to "be who you are" if "what you do with who you are" is to commit sin acts wantonly. As believers, we are being transformed from "who we were" into people who are Christ-like. We aren't there yet, therefore, "who we are" isn't going to cut it.



WizzyPigabeth -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 8:34:15 PM)

We had this question come up a bit last night at Bible Study. Our pastor said "What if two homosexuals walk through the door on Sunday. What will we do?"

I said "We'll welcome them and rejoice that they are coming to hear the Word of God."

We also will not tell them they better change right then and there and become straight, or they'll go to hell. What they may hear is that Jesus died to forgive their Sin - that Sin that is present in all of us and that we can be forgiven for our sins, past present and future.

Conviction comes to a sincere heart from the Holy Spirit as the new creation inside begins to grow. Sanctification is not an instant thing. They will not hear that their lifestyle is okay, but they're not going to be told they're going to hell because of being homosexual - people go to hell for dying in their SIN NATURE in an unforgiven state.

I firmly believe the power of the Holy Spirit will work on a sincere heart. Do we tell them their lifestyle is sinful? Of course - but we also must realize that conviction and change comes from the Holy Spirit. Our job is to exhort (build up and instruct), to love, and to bear the fruits of the spirit.

Which one of the fruits of the spirit does condemnation fall under? Is it our job to condemn, or our job to exhort? There is a difference.

That said - I do believe that some people are born with personality traits prone to certain personality bents. BUT we are not to be slaves to these desires when they tempt us to sin. I'm half Irish, and I have a terrible temper. It's NATURAL for me to explode when angry. But it's not RIGHT.

It's NATURAL for us to want to have sex - PERIOD, whether we're homosexually oriented or heterosexual - but it's SIN to have it outside of the boundaries that God has set up.

It's NATURAL for us to want to do any number of sins, because we have a SIN NATURE. Just because it's THERE doesn't mean we are justified in acting on it.

We all have our weaknesses that need to be overcome by the power of the Holy Spirit. For some it's gossip, for some it's envy, for some it's illicit sexual desire - be it for open sexual relationships outside of marriage, or orgies, for uncontrolled sex, for sex with children and animals, or for members of our own sex....we all need to take these sinful thought captive and allow the Holy Spirit to transform our minds thru the reading of the word and the instruction of our elders in the faith.

We need to be discerning. Obviously Fred Phelps is not a wise choice in an elder. He does not display the fruits of the Spirit very well. But just because some have gone over the edge to the point of being sinful and arrogant themselves doesn't mean WE have to go the other way and say "It's okay, it's just a part of who you are...."

There's nothing wrong with saying "I love you, welcome to our family, and let's pray that the Holy Spirit fills and empowers you in such a way that you'll find victory over your sins - Christ called us to be Holy and we need His help to achieve that...."

There's a middle line between condoning and condemnation - it's called realizing that we're all fallen, we all screw up, and no one sin is worse than the other. Jesus would say "You who are without sin cast the first stone." Rather let's work to building each other up and encouraging a strong desire for a living relationship with our Redeemer.



WizzyPigabeth -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 8:40:10 PM)

And another thing - some people think that because victory over a sin doesn't come within a certain timeframe, then they're destined to that forever - that's wrong. God's timing is NOT our timing. The refiner's fire is not something pleasant to go thru - it's not like being in some golden place getting finishing touches put on. It's a hot furnace meant to purge us of our imperfections. For some of us, we need years of refining.

My husband had a relatively dramatic change over his sinful self - he stopped having the desire to drink, do drugs, and sleep around relatively quickly with a few struggles here and there...but me? Sometimes I think I'm no further ahead now than I was 17 years ago.



WizzyPigabeth -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 8:59:27 PM)

And furthermore....who among you is going to tell the deacon's daughter and her teen age boyfriend that they're going to hell cause they're pregnant out of wedlock?

I was in a church that actually applauded after an announcement was made re: to teens from the group - "They got married on Saturday and on Monday the baby was born!" And people CHEERED. I was appalled that it was even announced in church at all...but then when half the congregation erupted in thunderous applause, I was sick. Do we condemn them? Of course not. Be we should not applaud sinful behavior either!



happydays -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 9:05:40 PM)

quote:

Do we condemn them? Of course not. Be we should not applaud sinful behavior either!


I think this is the crux of the matter. You can't get angry that Christians say that engaging in homosexual actions is sin. It is. Making excuses for the behavior is wrong. We can state that the action is wrong, without hating those who perform it. the sin is not in the temptation, it is in giving in to it, and pretending it is not sin, or , as some have reasoned, not a sin at all.



WizzyPigabeth -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 9:14:33 PM)

Exactly. there is nothing wrong with saying homosexuality is a sin. Telling people they're going to hell simply because they're homosexual is innaccurate - EVERYONE who hasn't accepted Christ is going to hell, no matter who they are or what they do.

Once we are saved from our SIN(NATURE), then we can let the Holy Spirit do the sanctifying work on our sins(actions), if that makes sense.



Fritzpw_Admin -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/22/2005 8:34:57 AM)

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singinbeauty,

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