Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (Full Version)

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earthless -> Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/12/2008 1:03:07 PM)

Some dear friends of ours, people who in the past have done tons of ministry work with me have been getting heavily involved with Mosaic, pastored by Erwin McManus. Who is known world-wide for his talks, books, etc..

I do know that these friends of ours are in full time leadership positions in a church outside of Miami, FL that would be classified as an "emergent" church - a topic/category that I am still very ignorant to.

Any one familiar with this individual and or his books, ideals?



1love1God1way -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/12/2008 5:17:57 PM)

I have read two books of his.
Unfortunately, it was quite a while ago, so I do not recall much of what was said.

From what I remember, he is very theologically sound.

I love what he has done with the church...he went to where the people were, but did not stoop to their level. That is the heart of the true "emergent church."



mushhead -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/12/2008 5:43:49 PM)

quote:

From what I remember, he is very theologically sound.

earthless,
I have spent the last two years researching and writing about the emerging church (EC). In fact, I resigned my last pastorate to focus on this task full time. I have not had the time nor the inclination to read McManus so I cannot answer your question. However, I can tell you what I have heard. I have heard that McManus is sound, and I have heard that he is not sound. I have heard that he doesn't want to be associated with the EC, and I have heard that he is definitely emergent.

I do know that Mosaic was at one time affiliated with the SBC (and might still be). While that fact should guarantee McManus is orthodox on the essentials, unfortunately it doesn't guarantee anything because some factions in the SBC are increasingly embracing the EC. Rick Warren is a SBC pastor and his websight "Pastors.com" recently participated in the distribution of a DVD featuring Brian McLaren, Tony Jones, Doug Pagett, and other EC leaders. In any case, I am responding to 1love1God1way's post in order to say that I wouldn't necessarily trust that conclusion without substantiation. I will avoid hijacking your thread by responding to the "heart of the true emergent church" comment. I'll be reading the responses with interest.



1love1God1way -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/12/2008 7:41:53 PM)

I would agree mushead, that one should not just accept my statement. Like I said...it's just what I remember. I don't remember coming across anything that sounded iffy, but I could just be mistaken. I do remember enjoying his books and being challenged by them.

One should simply read his works before they decide.



Hayseed -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/13/2008 3:46:57 AM)

Erwin McManus would not be considered "emergent", nor would he call himself such. He is a SBC ordained pastor and Mosaic was/is what became of a dying SBC church he took over.

His books are among the cream of the crop out there. I recommend him highly and I've read and re-read all of his books. I couldn't even pick a favorite out of them because they're all good and inspired.



stateofgrace -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/13/2008 8:55:58 AM)

So, does that mean he's "emergent-in-style-but-solidly-evangelical-in-substance" along the lines of, say, Mark Driscoll?



mushhead -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/13/2008 11:48:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

I would agree mushead, that one should not just accept my statement. Like I said...it's just what I remember. I don't remember coming across anything that sounded iffy, but I could just be mistaken. I do remember enjoying his books and being challenged by them.

One should simply read his works before they decide.

1love...,
My previous post, as it relates to you, was not clear. I was not taking issue with your conclusion precisely because you were going on memory, and because when emergents (if that is what McManus is) teach heresy, it is not always obvious. Many times they use very orthodox sounding statements that have very unorthodox definitions. I am not claiming to be more discerning than anyone else, but as a resident of Salt Lake City (area), I am accumstomed to dealing with the Mormon church that does the same thing. Christians around here have learned to listen for clues to how the speaker/writer defines his terms. It becomes habitual...something we just do without even thinking about it. So, I have heard people say McManus is sound, but because I have also heard that he is emergent, I assume it is possible that he is using orthodox sounding terminology to teach an unorthodox doctrine, and that some people don't realize it. If he is sound, great. If he is not - yet has the appearance of a sound teacher - he is more dangerous than the guy that is teaching obvious heresy. Anyway, that is my long explanation why I advised earthless to withhold judgment.



doinkdom -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/13/2008 11:57:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stateofgrace

So, does that mean he's "emergent-in-style-but-solidly-evangelical-in-substance" along the lines of, say, Mark Driscoll?


That is what I would say, based on my reading.



Soxfan -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/13/2008 6:05:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

Some dear friends of ours, people who in the past have done tons of ministry work with me have been getting heavily involved with Mosaic, pastored by Erwin McManus. Who is known world-wide for his talks, books, etc..

I do know that these friends of ours are in full time leadership positions in a church outside of Miami, FL that would be classified as an "emergent" church - a topic/category that I am still very ignorant to.

Any one familiar with this individual and or his books, ideals?


For your reading pleasure:

http://www.apprising.org/archives/erwin_mcmanus/index.html



Hayseed -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/14/2008 12:03:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doinkdom

quote:

ORIGINAL: stateofgrace

So, does that mean he's "emergent-in-style-but-solidly-evangelical-in-substance" along the lines of, say, Mark Driscoll?


That is what I would say, based on my reading.


I guess you could say that.



earthless -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/14/2008 8:15:22 AM)

Thank you guys for your responses. I hope this thread generates a few more responses and insight.



P31W -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/14/2008 8:23:50 AM)

quote:

While that fact should guarantee McManus is orthodox on the essentials, unfortunately it doesn't guarantee anything because some factions in the SBC are increasingly embracing the EC. Rick Warren is a SBC pastor and his websight "Pastors.com" recently participated in the distribution of a DVD featuring Brian McLaren, Tony Jones, Doug Pagett, and other EC leaders.


Mushhead,

I have always taken a stand against the EC both here on the forum and in my real life. When "my" Baptist Record that is sent to every SB member in our state sang the praises of the EC my phone began to ring off the hook. People wanted to know what I believed about the article. Mark Driscoll was the "featured" pastor they wanted to discuss mainly in the article. I told people if you want to know that the most "popular" EC preachers teach go pick up a copy of McLaren or Pagett. The article was completely onesided and did't go into enough detail over the "problems" that are "controlling" that movement.

Talk about concern. I am concered.



stateofgrace -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/14/2008 9:25:52 AM)

Driscoll was only identified with the emerging church movement in the beginning (and the primary thing that his church has in common with some ec's is style, not substance). He's made it pretty clear that he's not part of the ec movement.

anyhow, I've subscribed to McManus' podcast so I'm looking forward to sampling his sermons. I like Driscoll overall although he gets rather, um, crass, at times.



P31W -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/14/2008 11:33:53 AM)

quote:

Driscoll was only identified with the emerging church movement in the beginning (and the primary thing that his church has in common with some ec's is style, not substance). He's made it pretty clear that he's not part of the ec movement.


When did this happen? The article was published only a few months ago. The last time I checked Mark did still consider himself part of the movement and was calling for a divide in it. At that time only 'he" seemed to be standing up calling for a divide or reform.



stateofgrace -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/14/2008 12:14:55 PM)

quote:

When did this happen? The article was published only a few months ago. The last time I checked Mark did still consider himself part of the movement and was calling for a divide in it. At that time only 'he" seemed to be standing up calling for a divide or reform.


I think this will explain where he stands.

In the mid-1990s I was part of what is now known as the Emerging Church and spent some time traveling the country to speak on the emerging church in the emerging culture on a team put together by Leadership Network called the Young Leader Network. But, I eventually had to distance myself from the Emergent stream of the network because friends like Brian McLaren and Doug Pagitt began pushing a theological agenda that greatly troubled me. Examples include referring to God as a chick, questioning God's sovereignty over and knowledge of the future, denial of the substitutionary atonement at the cross, a low view of Scripture, and denial of hell which is one hell of a mistake.

There is also an article on Christianity Today that explains more of his position.



Gloryandgrace -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/14/2008 12:16:56 PM)

posting some links directly related to the thread

http://erwinmcmanus.com/bio

http://www.stevekmccoy.com/reformissionary/2006/01/erwin_mcmanus_a.html

http://strivetoenter.com/emergentchurch/?cat=21

The last link on the emergent church seems to be very fair and helpful.


John



Gloryandgrace -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/14/2008 12:31:07 PM)

http://www.relevantmagazine.com/god_article.php?id=6989

As I read the interview, I got the feel for Mcmanus, I tell you he feels like the new way to express Christian thought to the new generation. But I cant help wonder that its just Christianity light gone lighter? I dont know, I am making no judgments now on Mcmanus.

Some troubling remarks red-flag my heresy sensors and cause me some concern over his take on scripture. But thats just me.

John



earthless -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/14/2008 12:44:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stateofgrace

quote:

When did this happen? The article was published only a few months ago. The last time I checked Mark did still consider himself part of the movement and was calling for a divide in it. At that time only 'he" seemed to be standing up calling for a divide or reform.


I think this will explain where he stands.

In the mid-1990s I was part of what is now known as the Emerging Church and spent some time traveling the country to speak on the emerging church in the emerging culture on a team put together by Leadership Network called the Young Leader Network. But, I eventually had to distance myself from the Emergent stream of the network because friends like Brian McLaren and Doug Pagitt began pushing a theological agenda that greatly troubled me. Examples include referring to God as a chick, questioning God's sovereignty over and knowledge of the future, denial of the substitutionary atonement at the cross, a low view of Scripture, and denial of hell which is one hell of a mistake.

There is also an article on Christianity Today that explains more of his position.


Very interesting...



YvonneW -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/14/2008 6:17:28 PM)

quote:

Erwin McManus would not be considered "emergent", nor would he call himself such. He is a SBC ordained pastor and Mosaic was/is what became of a dying SBC church he took over.


Hello everyone!

I'm new here but I felt I had to respond to Hayseed's comment above.

My father, Pastor Robert Martinez, was ordained by Pastor Thomas A. Wolf of the Church on Brady. This was the church that eventually became Mosaic under Erwin McManus.

My dad worked under both "Bro. Tom" and Erwin McManus for a total ministry career of more than 25 years until he retired in January of 2007. My dad once held the title of Executive Pastor for Mosaic and was listed as the Agent for Service of Process for Mosaic, L.A., until that position was transferred to Mosaic's current Executive Pastor, Eric Bryant.

It seems to be a common misperception that the Church on Brady was a "dying" congregation when Erwin took over. This is absolutely not true. The Church on Brady had close to 700 members when Bro. Tom and the elders (of whom my father was one) called Erwin McManus to consider becoming the new lead pastor. The Church on Brady had been experiencing steady growth and had already undertaken one major rebuilding project to expand the sanctuary before Erwin came on as lead pastor.

The growth trend continued until once again the church became too cramped and there weren't enough parking spaces for everyone. If I remember correctly, we were starting to have trouble staying within the code restrictions too because there were just too many people. We needed to move because there just wasn't any more land available to us for more expansions.

In 1997, the "Believe the Impossible" capital fundrasing banquet was held at Union Station in downtown Los Angeles to raise money towards the purchase of a new building. Since we knew we were moving from Brady Avenue in East Los Angeles, it was obvious we would need a new name.

This is how "Mosaic" was born.

Mosaic is still an SBC church, or at least it's still listed at the SBC website as a member church.


Yvonne W.



earthless -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/14/2008 6:33:55 PM)

Yvonne,

Firstly, welcome to the boards and thank you for adding your input to this thread. Input that comes from personal involvement with this pastor and the church we're discussing.



SD456 -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/14/2008 11:26:09 PM)

I read his book, The Barbarian Way, and truly enjoyed it. In the book, it shares some of his testimony and how he got where he is. He says that he always went against the grain of the established church and felt that church was meant to be something much more different than we see today.

I love him also because he's relationally connected to the church in Belfast that puts out the "revival in belfast" worship CDs. He regularly does conferences there and that, too, is a wonderful church.

Their whole concept of church and how they choose staff and leadership is very refreshing. Mosaic doesn't choose it's leadership based on if someone has a Theology degree or not. They make people start from the ground up and people are chosen for staff only after they've been in a volunteer leadership position and humbly served for quite a while. They are chosen based solely on their love, humility and service that they've shown themselves to be faithful in and on their character. I'm sure they must have bible knowledge, too, but character plays a very big part for them.



Hayseed -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/15/2008 12:34:09 AM)

Sorry, Yvonne, probably shouldn't have used the word "dying" (I was even trying to think of a better word when I wrote that post). Anyway, I was trying to describe what I read in "An Unstoppable Force." And in that book Erwin was not, nor did he come across as putting down the people of the church that he took over. In fact, he praised them for having the guts to do it differently.



jazzact13 -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/15/2008 11:30:12 AM)

quote:

So, does that mean he's "emergent-in-style-but-solidly-evangelical-in-substance" along the lines of, say, Mark Driscoll?


In the talk at a conference last year where Driscoll came out against some in the EC such a McLaren, Pagitt, and Bell, he mentioned McManus and Kimball in positive ways--I think he referred to them as 'relevants' who tried to make the Gospel relevant without changing the message.



YvonneW -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/15/2008 12:09:59 PM)

No problem Hayseed.

Last year I started to look into the specific things Erwin has said and written about the Church on Brady. I've also looked into what other authors have written about the Church on Brady that appears to have been based on direct input from Erwin McManus, for example; Rick Warren's foreword to "An Unstoppable Force." I've been rather dismayed and concerned about what I've found.

Erwin has written, said, or allowed others to write some pretty harsh things about the Church on Brady, Bro. Tom and other ex-Mosaic leaders. I don't know why this is but I do know it's a fact.

Since I'm new here I'm not sure what the rules are about posting links but I'd be happy to answer any further questions on this subject.

Yvonne W.



jacobwdowning -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (2/25/2008 11:49:49 PM)

I hope that I am not to late to join this conversation. I had not heard of Erwin or the EC before I attend the Willow Creek worship and Arts conference this past year. After hearing most most of the speakers there and not agreeing with any of them, Erwin closed out the conference and seemed to contridict everything the other speakers said. Since then I have read the Barbarian Way which I thought was an incredible book and have listen to the Mosaic podcast on a regular basis. I have heard a few things that he has said in the podcast that seemed a little off but most of it is solid. The thing that concerns me is that little bit that he is off. Am I missing things. I have read articles online from that Apprissing sight but they seem to think everyone is wrong but them. I am not emerging in the least bit, at least from what I know of it. I would really like to hear more about this topic. If the guy from UT could give me some places to look or some info, that would be great.



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