RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (Full Version)

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CherishedbyGod -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/16/2008 2:15:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

I apologize, CbG, but I have no intention of slandering anyone, especially someone I do not know. The point I was trying to make (obviously rather poorly) is that perhaps this godly lady did not wish to have as much mind-altering medication as her physicians encouraged her to take. If I'm "slandering" anyone, it would be my fellow professionals who often push aggressive analgesia without much consideration for patients' spiritual needs. I realize the doctors' intentions may be "noble", but this kind of decision rarely involves family, pastor, or ethicist.


It is alright. I apologize for over-reacting. She died in 1951 so I am not certain if this debate re: mind-altering medication was going on at the time.

She is one of my heroines and I have many of her books. I'll see if I can find a good quote of hers and post it for you[;)] Sorry moderator, I know, off-topic.



drmark -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/16/2008 2:25:08 PM)

Well, it may be considered on-topic if we look at the big picture here. Several are contrasting the physical with emotional with spiritual aspects of substance use in an attempt to delineate when use becomes abuse. Again, I find it overly simplistic to adhere to strict spiritual definitions of sin without awareness of the individual's underlying motives and intentions. And only God knows the heart!



zamdad -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/16/2008 3:41:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hammurabi

quote:

Addicts stop maturing emotionally somewhere along the way.


Just one question - does this necessarily relate to substance, object, or activity, one is addicted to? Do cigarettes cause less maturation damage than alcohol? Or is this construed as a relationship between the severity (ability to disguise emotional problems) of the substance, and the reason for use? It seems that some substances which cause addiction don't actually prevent one from emotionally maturing, but entirely depend upon the way in which they're used, even if one is addicted to them. And what would Christian psychology (is that even a discipline?) have to say in relationship to this...

Just an observation, but it seems as though - and only from my "church" experience - that Christians tend to categorize addictions as "sinful"/important and "other," and focus their attention primarily upon the "sin"-addictions, without addressing the "other." I've seen, at the last church I attended (which was 3 years ago at 16), intensive focus upon sex addicts, while some congregates would wander outside to light up post-sermon, without much besides a "dirty, pseudo-Christian" look from the more pious, less Christ-related, members of the church.


Sounds like more than one question. I think (and as I said, I'm not an expert) that it has more to do with the substance. Alcohol, marijuana, cocaine, LSD, mushrooms, meth, many pharmacueticals and a list of other chemicals are mood altering. Most of them have long lasting effect and, repeated over time, tend to arrest emotional development. Products like tobacco or caffiene, while they can be mood altering, are not of the same effect. They do not impair intellectual functioning in the manner that other drugs/chemicals do.



deliveredarling -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/16/2008 4:09:46 PM)

I need to reiterate this one key thing: People are born with this disease. If as a child you are introduced to drugs or alcohol and experiment, you have set the pattern of your life by that first "taste". Your usage will increase and it will become a crutch for you. It's in your make-up. If you start using at age 16, your emotional maturity stops progressing at that age. Should you get sober at age 50, you will have the emotional maturity of a 16 yr old. You can liken this to stunting your growth. You will eventually mature to the correct age, however it takes awhile. You basically have to relearn every coping skill you have or basically everyone that you lack having.

as far as the difference between the user and the abuser goes. The chronic alcoholic will, given enough time before intervention will rely on alcohol in the body to function. it does depend on what stage an alcoholic decides to get sober at. none the less the alcoholic has a harder time in withdrawal than the drug addict. The drug addict feels like they are dying, the alcoholic can die. It takes longer for the alcoholic to detox than the drug addict.

The mental addiction in the addict is so much stronger than in the addict because the alcoholics body needs the alcohol. The addicts body does not need the drug, their need is chasing the train of oblivion. They never catch after the first one again. That is why you hear about the overdoses. Enough is never enough. They believe the more they take the higher they will get, when in reality, they are just getting closer to death.

People who abuse drugs don't always become addicts. people who drink occasionally don't always become alcoholics. Some of us are just born special[:D]

It is the same issue in alcoholism and addiction- the obsession. It doesn't matter which one we seek, they both help the individual escape from reality. It is a disease of the soul. All the book knowledge in the world does not help anyone who is addicted. You can know the facts and the consequences-it does not stop the desire to have it. There is only One Way to overcome it and it is through Jesus Christ. However one may get to Him is insignificant . What matters is that they get to Him.



drmark -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/16/2008 4:28:01 PM)

quote:

People are born with this disease.
This is a major oversimplification, birdseye. There is increasing evidence that certain genes are more common in alcoholics but that in no way means that a particular newborn is doomed to addiction. Here is an exerpt from a recent STUDY MAPPING GENES:
quote:

Because someone has a genetic tendency to develop a disease, it does not guarantee they will have the disease, only that they are at higher risk for doing so than the average person.


quote:

none the less the alcoholic has a harder time in withdrawal than the drug addict. The drug addict feels like they are dying, the alcoholic can die. It takes longer for the alcoholic to detox than the drug addict.
Again, this is way too over-generalized. Each psychoacive agent has different effects on unique individuals.

quote:

It is the same issue in alcoholism and addiction- the obsession. It doesn't matter which one we seek, they both help the individual escape from reality. It is a disease of the soul.
Now this I fully agree with, remembering that physical and psychoemotional factors also play important roles. We are all beings of body, mind, and spirit and it is unwise to focus only on one aspect of personhood when managing substance abuse.



CherishedbyGod -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/16/2008 7:40:16 PM)

Whether addiction/alcoholism is a disease or sin, I do not know. One thing I do know is that, in general, the treatment success rate for, at least alcoholism, is dismal.

I think a hugh factor is the underestimating of how the enemy uses his powerful weapon of shame to keep the alcoholic bound. And yet, I do not, for the most part see this aspect being addressed. Could it be the enemy wants to keep it under wrap?

I have heard it called the "demon power of shame". And yet, I do not see it being addressed for the hugh, destructive power it is.

For example...I see people, in all sincerity, present their loved ones by name to prayer groups to be prayed for for deliverance from alcohol. It seems innocent and even a Godly thing to do.

However, if it becomes known to the alcoholic, it only increasestheir shame because they know that many more people know about their sin/weakness or whatever you want to call it.

While confidentiality is stressed at an AA meeting or Celebrate Recovery or the Doctor's office or Counselor, yet that same person's family might be piling up shame upon the addict by sharing with family members who are in no position to help or can, indeed make matters tremendously worse.

"Shaming" addicts for their use and using behavior is counter productive, creates barriers to recovery, and greatly complicates the recovery process once begun. Addicts medicate shame, fear, anger and pain. Chemically dependent people feel enormous shame as it is - adding to this shame is not only cruel, but may spur greater use. Increasing the burden of shame may lead to overdose and / or suicide"

For the remainder of this article please click here:

http://www.recovery-man.com/addiction.htm



krazyxsinner -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/16/2008 7:48:27 PM)

quote:

I need to reiterate this one key thing: People are born with this disease.



We are all born with a sin nature thanks to Adam..



deliveredarling -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/17/2008 7:08:15 AM)

Cherished
Very good point. It is shame that binds one from the love of God. In recovery it is one of the major humps to battle. Those horrible tapes replaying every bad action taken during addiction, is almost more than one can take. Hence the need to develop a faith greater than ourselves. In our addiction we did not rely on others to supply the need, we did that however and whenever we could. Coming to the point of realizing that faith can not be accomplished alone is frightening. The enemy does use this to keep us away from God. However, when we get to the point of belief, we know that the enemy has already been defeated. A very long process for some and time can't be discounted.

Krazy sinner,
Yes we are all born with the disease of soul sickness-human depravity. The cure is Jesus Christ.
Scripture tells us that He will not tempt us beyond what we are capable of handling, but He will provide a way for our escape. (completely generalized and paraphrased) He did through His Son.



drmark -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/17/2008 8:41:26 AM)

quote:

Scripture tells us that He will not tempt us beyond what we are capable of handling, but He will provide a way for our escape. (completely generalized and paraphrased) He did through His Son.
That's a very accurate and relevant paraphrase, birdseye, except that God does not tempt us. The original text in 1 Cor 10:13 says: No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man (and woman!). God is faithful to provide our way of escape, if we trust Him. The addict must come to understand that her/his trust must be placed in Christ, not the drug, or the social system, or the counselor.



deliveredarling -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/17/2008 10:38:19 AM)

Very much agreed DrMark! I know this firsthand![:D]



designed -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/19/2008 4:23:15 PM)

quote:

The addict must come to understand that her/his trust must be placed in Christ, not the drug, or the social system, or the counselor.

Amen. Christ is where the healing is truly at. Forgiveness, hope, restoration and consecration all begin and end in Christ.



JimboFletch -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/19/2008 4:32:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

That's a wonderful testimony, krazyxsinner! It's also not the only way God chooses to heal his children. Sometimes, the ongoing process of daily consecration and submission is God's plan for sustained deliverance. I think we need to be careful not to restrict His loving grace to only one mechanism.

That deserves repeating. It's similar to the WOF people who claim that God wants everyone to always be healthy, rich, and be without body odor. Sometimes, more often than we might like to admit, God chooses to allow us to endure illness, have limited finances, and smell when we sweat - all to His glory.



designed -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/19/2008 5:27:06 PM)

I’m confused Jimbo. Are you saying that to say God does not want us to be enslaved in an addiction is similar to WOF ‘blab it grab it’ teachings? I fully agree with what drmark said here…
quote:

Sometimes, the ongoing process of daily consecration and submission is God's plan for sustained deliverance. I think we need to be careful not to restrict His loving grace to only one mechanism.

Whether deliverance from addiction happens in an instant or it takes much longer, God can and will use it for His glory. I’m just not sure how saying that it is God’s will that one should be delivered from addiction is similar to WOF teachings. If that is what you meant??



drmark -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/19/2008 5:46:35 PM)

I'm almost certain that Jimbo meant we should not always expect God to "instantly heal addiction upon salvation" as described by the personal experience of crazyxsinner's husband in her post #39. The "blab it and grab it" crowd often misunderstands and even denigrates the grace of God to work at His pace and timing in our lives, rather than their preconceived timetable of "strong faith = instant results". Perserverance is a much ignored virtue in some circles!



1love1God1way -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/19/2008 5:46:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: designed

quote:

The addict must come to understand that her/his trust must be placed in Christ, not the drug, or the social system, or the counselor.

Amen. Christ is where the healing is truly at. Forgiveness, hope, restoration and consecration all begin and end in Christ.


Can a non-Christian addict become a non-addict?



drmark -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/19/2008 5:51:53 PM)

Well, I guess it depends on terminology, 1l1G1w. Some experts feel there's no such thing as a former addict or non-addict, only a recovering addict. I suspect your question is really too complex to answer definitively in every case. As I've posted before, addiction is an interplay of physical, emotional, and spiritual issues all working in various proportions in each person. Certainly the physical and emotional aspects could be completely healed in a non-Christian, at least from the secular viewpoint. Obviously, the spiritual aspect remains severely diseased in the unbeliever!



JimboFletch -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/19/2008 5:53:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

I'm almost certain that Jimbo meant we should not always expect God to "instantly heal addiction upon salvation" as described by the personal experience of crazyxsinner's husband in her post #39. The "blab it and grab it" crowd often misunderstands and even denigrates the grace of God to work at His pace and timing in our lives, rather than their preconceived timetable of "strong faith = instant results". Perserverance is a much ignored virtue in some circles!

Yes, that's what I was affirming. I think you nailed this one on the head.
[sm=thumbsup.gif]



JimboFletch -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/19/2008 5:56:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

quote:

ORIGINAL: designed

quote:

The addict must come to understand that her/his trust must be placed in Christ, not the drug, or the social system, or the counselor.

Amen. Christ is where the healing is truly at. Forgiveness, hope, restoration and consecration all begin and end in Christ.


Can a non-Christian addict become a non-addict?

I wish I could remember his name, but there was a Charismatic teacher back in the 70s that I thoroughly enjoyed his teaching. He had been an alcoholic and God delivered him. Several years later the man thought he was cured so he joined a friend in a drink - which led to a full-blown binge.

He humbly admitted that God delivered him but did not change his body's tendency to abuse alcohol one the first drink was consumed.

Make of that what you will.



designed -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/19/2008 6:58:21 PM)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

I'm almost certain that Jimbo meant we should not always expect God to "instantly heal addiction upon salvation" as described by the personal experience of crazyxsinner's husband in her post #39. The "blab it and grab it" crowd often misunderstands and even denigrates the grace of God to work at His pace and timing in our lives, rather than their preconceived timetable of "strong faith = instant results". Perserverance is a much ignored virtue in some circles!

quote:

jimbo-
Yes, that's what I was affirming. I think you nailed this one on the head.
Thanks for clarifying.
quote:

1love1God1way-
Can a non-Christian addict become a non-addict?

drmark rapped the answer to that one up in a nut shell, once again[;)]
But I will add..Can a non-Christian become forgiven, restored and consecrated while seeking to rid themselves of their addiciton? They may be able to stop the behaviour that got them hooked(and address certain aspects of the addictive cycle) but my hope would be that they might be saved and sanctified in the process. IMO, that's the only way to address the spiritual components of addiction.
quote:

jimbo-
He had been an alcoholic and God delivered him. Several years later the man thought he was cured so he joined a friend in a drink - which led to a full-blown binge.

Sounds like he stuck his hand right back in the original fire that had burned him before. Playing with fire. I have never thought it a wise idea to do that, though some recovered alcoholics claim to have no problem doing so.



krazyxsinner -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/19/2008 7:36:56 PM)

quote:

Playing with fire. I have never thought it a wise idea to do that, though some recovered alcoholics claim to have no problem doing so.


Hubby here. I enjoy fine beers and mixed drinks with no problems anymore.



designed -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/19/2008 8:36:09 PM)

quote:

I would like to know if any of you, aside from Birdseye, have battled against addiction/alcoholism?

Please don't just give me your medical head knowledge...please give me your personal

I was an addict/alcoholic for over a decade. I have experienced the pain and torment, physical and mental cravings, depression, suicidal thoughts/attempts, lies and secrecy, guilt and shame, the confusion, anguish and desperation. I watched my loved ones suffer through all of this with me. I made choices and mistakes that I will never be able to take back and will possibly affect my life(and others) in some way as long as I walk this earth. When I first became a Christian, God began to restore and heal me from all the enemy had taken from my life but I started to turn my back on God and began a dangerous backslide into old habits. By the mercy, love and grace of God, I know that through Christ, complete victory over addiction is possible and I thank Him for restoring me. I don't call myself a recovered addict/alcoholic, I am simply a child of God. He who began a good work in me will finish it and I can do all things through Christ. Thank you Jesus! If God can use me in any way to be a light of hope in another addicts life, all glory to Him.



krazyxsinner -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/19/2008 9:04:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod

I would like to know if any of you, aside from Birdseye, have battled against addiction/alcoholism?

Please don't just give me your medical head knowledge...please give me your personal experience....




Hubby here. I have.



ruthyrich -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/19/2008 10:21:39 PM)

That would explain why years ago when I was mad at God I actually tried to become an alchoholic. (Yes, the can't beat'em, join'em technique).

I tried and tried built up a tolerance, but never came to the point of waking up and realizing I was a drunk. After about 6 months of drinking every day all day, except for the 40 hrs a week I was at work, I finally gave up trying to destroy myself this way.

I have always just thought it was because God had other plans for me and my life. I still think that I was right. He has shown me other plans and I am sure much happier hooked on God, than what I would have been hooked on alchohol or drugs.



FoxInSox -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/19/2008 11:47:19 PM)

I have experience with codependency and compulsive behaviors. I'm willing to share, but I understand the question may be more specific to chemical dependency.

~M



designed -> RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? (2/20/2008 12:29:22 AM)

Foxinsox, I am interested in your experience. From what I understand, there does seem to be similaritys/relevance between the conditions you described and addictions. Even though I have lived and experienced addiction, I in no way claim to completely understand all the ins and outs of addictive behaviours. It is obviously a very complex issue. I think there can be much to benefit in regards to listening to what others have learned and from personal experiences.



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