Salvation Has To Be A Choice

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ImBornAgain -> Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/25/2008 6:38:09 PM)
Salvation Has To Be A Choice Because Love Has To Be A Choice Most of us have asked ourselves - why are we here, what is our purpose? This basic question is a question that has to be answered to have a full understanding of who we are and how God relates to us. We must know why we were created to be able to fulfill our full potential that God intended for us. The only reason for every man or woman's existence since the beginning of time is for each one of us to choose who/what will be the lord of our life and then glorify that lord we have chosen to follow and worship. The only reason God created man is to have a loving relationship with Him and for God to glorify Himself thru us. We are God's creation and with the Holy Spirits unrestricted working in our life, we have the full potential of glorifying God as He intended. But, we can also choose to have ourselves, things, or money be our lord. What ever we decide to be our lord, that lord is what we will worship. If we trust in anything other than the true God, we will not be able to have a joy filled life as God intended. All true love and joy can only come from God. We have to consider ourselves dead anytime we are separated from the Lord, since life is only in the Lord. If we don't have Christ in us, we don't have life. This is why a loving God can let people go to hell, since they are only empty shells with no life in them. The only value in us is Christ's life, which is from God alone. The good news is that He wants all to come and trust in His son Jesus to receive this life. Love has to be a choice, otherwise it is worthless. What makes love so valuable? It’s what makes the world go around. It is what makes a life worth living. God's word says, "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love , I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love , I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love , I gain nothing." (NIV 1 Cor 13:1-3). What makes the love of our spouse so special? It is the spouses choice to love us as we are and the sacrificing of his/her life for us. Why is it so special when our kids listen and do what we say? It is the love they are showing us by making the choice of respecting and being obedient to our wishes. Why is it so important to be obedient to God's word, His will, and the Holy Spirits leading? Our choice to be obedient shows our love for our Lord, no matter how much a sacrifice that obedience requires. The more sacrifice required, the more love is shown back to our Lord thru our obedience. What makes the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for our redemption so valuable? It is that He (God), made the choice to sacrifice Himself out of love for us, so we could once again have the choice to love God and others. From the very beginning of time, love had to be a choice. In the beginning, God had a loving and close relationship with His creation, Adam and Eve. The only instruction He commanded Adam that he could not do, was to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We all know what happened with the fall of man when Adam did eat of that tree. But why did God have that tree in the garden at all? Since God is in control of everything, it must of been serving a purpose for God. The requirement of love having to be a choice has everything to do with it. God wanted to feel true love coming from Adam, not some kind of forced love. If we could create a robot and program it to only love us, what value would that love from that robot have in our hearts. If we could make our children love us by placing a pre-programmed chip in them to make them love us, what value would that love have to us. It would have no value at all. God created us to have free will so we could make the choice to love Him and willingly be obedient to His commandments out of that love. Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve. (NIV Jos 24:15) With God's love and Spirit, I bring you this message. May God bless you!

cognitivemagic -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/25/2008 7:56:03 PM)
Great post. Remember, Adam and Eve departed from Life: God. But God was not settled that humanity should perish but went into radical action to help them: 1) He prevented Adam and Eve from eating of the "tree of life"; hence preventing them from entering eternity in a "fallen" condition (i.e. "hell") 2) He cursed the serpent, gave Adam/Eve instructions to serve, and promised the "Seed" Who would remedy their situation. 3) Adam and Eve obeyed God by cultivating the earth and bearing children. 4) By their obedience, mankind flourished and perished; although Noah and his family lived through the flood to carry on God's promise to Adam and Eve. 5) God specified even more about salvation by establishing His Kingdom through the Davidic line. Israel wasn't always faithful to her task of being a blessing to all nations, but God was. 6) St. Mary conceived a child by the Holy Spirit and gave birth to the "Seed": Jesus Christ. (Read the genealogy's of the Gospels of Matthew and Luke). 7) Jesus Christ, like all "seeds", was buried in the ground. But He rose as our "Tree of Life"....as our very Life. 8) Those that choose Him receive life....those that don't, don't. This is the reader's digest of the Gospel...but I hope it helps.

drmark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/25/2008 11:10:21 PM)
How does a godless sinner living in a fallen world who is totally depraved choose to love God whom s/he despises?

frankman -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/26/2008 4:14:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark How does a godless sinner living in a fallen world who is totally depraved choose to love God whom s/he despises? Great post by the OP. Salvation and love are indeed a choice. However the sad part about a godless sinner who is totally depraved is he will never choose to love God. In fact they will constantly be on the run from God and does not want anything to do with God`s plan of salvation. How do I know this to be true? It`s true because that was me before I became a Christian. So the question is, how do we become believers? John 16:8 gives us the answer. "When HE comes, HE will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:" The pro-noun "HE" in this verse refers to the Holy Spirit. It becomes the Holy Spirit`s work to convict that running depraved sinner of their UNBELIEF. Unbelief in Jesus is such a big sin it will condemn a person to eternal hell forever. After a person is convicted of this condemning sin, the Holy Spirit will convict the person that only by RIGHTEOUSNESS may he be saved. [sm=icon_smile_question.gif] By who`s righteousness will we be saved? Not by our own righteousness, because our righteousness is like a filthy rag and will never appease a holy God. The answer is the sinner needs the righteousness of Jesus Christ, the perfect Lamb of God. This righteousness may only be appropiated by faith by believing in what Jesus did for us on the cross. This is the Spirit`s conviction of JUDGMENT. Jesus defeated Satan by judging him on the cross, thus defeating the old devil of his hold on us. We may now be rescued from our life of sin and darkness. However just hearing or knowing the above theology will not save anyone. We now have to CHOOSE to either receive by believing this message or reject it. When Paul presented this message to King Agrippa in Acts 26 the Spirit spoke to Agrippa and he replied to Paul in vs. 28 "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian." King Agrippa like many others in our world chose not to accept the Spirit`s message. [sm=angel.gif] However to those who hear and then choose to believe there`s good news according to Eph.1:13. "And you also were included in Christ when you HEARD the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having BELIEVED, you were marked in Him with a SEAL, the promised Holy Spirit." If we have experienced this seal how can we but not choose to love the Lord Jesus and choose to express that love for Him by living obediently according to His Word every day of our life?

drmark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/26/2008 7:11:09 PM)
That's a fine explanation, frankman. I would merely say "prevenient grace". [;)]

cognitivemagic -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/27/2008 11:00:06 PM)
quote: How does a godless sinner living in a fallen world who is totally depraved choose to love God whom s/he despises? That's like asking what the color blue tastes like or asking what's "north" of the north pole. People choose....but your rhetorical question has "stacked the deck" in your favor. To answer you is to play into your "determinist" hand. Let me ask you something: what makes you think that God hasn't begun a "false" work of grace in you and that you will fall away as assuredly as Judas or those mentioned in 1 John 2: quote: 18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[c] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. According to your Calvinism, since salvation is monergistic, "you" cannot answer this question of mine; only God can, since His election is in no way determined by the will of man or anything in man. Attempts to secure "reasons" as to why you will be "saved" in the end are premised on that very autonomy that you reject....or maybe you are a Prophet of God that's seen your name in the Book of Life when it's finally opened at the Final Judgment. quote: 11 "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books." (Revelation 20:11,12) And it is this very skepticism in Calvinism that led me down a near fatal path, like the poet William Cowper; but also helped me realize the greatness of God's love for me. There is no need to answer you because by your very asking of the question, you have unwittingly assumed your own autonomy and our own freedom to answer you; or not answer you. How do you answer your own question? What's your answer to your own question; and have you really asked anything at all? Or is this just God quibbling with Himself? When St. Paul says that "love...hopes all things, believes all things, endures all things. Love never fails" in 1 Cor. 13:7,8, to whom is he talking about there? God or man? Is "love" rational? Is love premised on physical causation or metaphysical necessity? If you say "yes", then I'd hate to be your wife or friend. Love is not "rational" or amenable to any scientific or logical analysis. It's mystical and metaphysical. You can't pour love in test tube and observe it. Love is not explained in terms of physics and chemistry. People who are "in love", are ofter said to act "irrationally" and "foolishly"; like when people scoff about lover's with phrases like "fools rush in" and "I don't see what she sees in that boy" and "they don't fit together". *It's precisely this non-determinate and irrational behavior that is the wonder and mystery of love; and of being "in love".*

biblicalthought -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/28/2008 12:20:27 AM)
Salvation has to Be a Choice! Yes it does. God's choice. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:12-13 It is not by the will of man. This refutes the pagan philosophic scheme of free-will. God saves, man only receives. One might object and accuse God of being unjust. But remember, in order for God to be God, nothing may be placed above Him to which He must adhere. The Apostle Paul put it this way: What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. In an unimagineable demonstration of God's loving grace, he has chosen a people to save. Praise God, the Author and Finisher of our faith!

Heavendweller -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/28/2008 2:08:31 PM)
Great post, OP. God teaches us about our relationship with Him through the relationships that He has established in humanity. Love in marriage demands that we make the choice to love, even when we don't feel like it. Love in our relationships with our children begins with nurturing, then progresses to establishing expectations to be obeyed (discipline), and then progresses to a reciprocal relationship of where love, sharing, patience, sacrifice, honor, respect, should occur. (I'm sure I could add to that last list.) The point is that in all relationships, whether husband and wife, parents and children, brothers and sisters, friends, etc. there is an element that is required for those relationships to blossom and grow. CHOICE Thus it is that when we choose to love and serve our Heavenly Father, He is pleased. He is not a Programmer in the sky, yanking the chains of those whom He predestined to be His children to obey Him. Rather, He looks for and desires obedience and love within us. God is glorified in His creation of humanity whom He created with a free will. This free will is not some mirage or fantasy, that we've been deceived into thinking it exists. Rather, in real life, on an everyday basis we are awakened to the reality that we have the freedom to do what we ought to do, not what we are forced to do. And we have the assurance from the Holy Spirit that we are enabled by Him to please God. Thanks for starting this thread. HD

everstudy -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/28/2008 2:15:53 PM)
I'm utterly speechless... I actually agree with drmark...

everstudy -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/28/2008 2:32:37 PM)
When looking at "choice", one must first define free-will and then try to discover just how free this "free-will" is. As in everything, our "free-will" is limited by several internal and external conditions. As an example: I am free to go to fast food for lunch today. My will is limited, though, by my resources, how far I can drive away from the office during my lunch hour and still enjoy my food and what I like to eat. So, while I may theorically go where ever I want, I can realistically only go to a limited number of places. Spiritually, the unbelieving may have the ability to chose God, but thier will is limited by thier sin nature, a desire to rebel against God, His Will and His Word. So theoretically they can "chose" God, realistically thier free-will is limited by sin. It is only after a work of God in somone's heart and mind that someone can "chose" God, and this chosing is a direct result of the work of God. ~Everstudy

drmark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/28/2008 3:35:07 PM)
quote: Salvation has to Be a Choice! Yes it does. God's choice Salvation has to Be a Choice! Yes it does. God's choice with man's cooperation. quote: But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:12-13 Why are you focused on "nor of the will of man", biblicalthought, when verse 12 clearly states we must receive (an act of the will), we must believe (another act of the will), and we must accept the gift (a third act of the will) before we have the right to become children of God? So, I guess I win 3 to 1? quote: It is not by the will of man. Correct, salvation is by the grace of God, through faith (Eph 2:8). quote: This refutes the pagan philosophic scheme of free-will. Actually, "free will" was the prevailing view of the Early Church Fathers until Augustine got bent out of shape by Pelagius. Are you calling all the ECFs "pagan", biblicalthought? quote: God saves, man only receives. Correct, salvation is only salvific if man receives, by grace through faith! quote: In an unimagineable demonstration of God's loving grace, he has chosen a people to save. In an unimagineable demonstration of God's loving grace, He has chosen to allow His people the ability to accept His saving grace for all eternity. Praise His Name! quote: Praise God, the Author and Finisher of our faith! It's interesting that you would slightly misquote Hebr 12:2, biblicalthought. The original text does not include the word "our" but only "faith", indicating that Jesus Christ is the predecessor to and perfect example of saving faith in general. God does not believe for us, no matter how much your doctrine would wish it so! quote: I'm utterly speechless... I actually agree with drmark... We agree on much more than you might think, everstudy!

john_mark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/28/2008 4:20:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: everstudy When looking at "choice", one must first define free-will and then try to discover just how free this "free-will" is. As in everything, our "free-will" is limited by several internal and external conditions. As an example: I am free to go to fast food for lunch today. My will is limited, though, by my resources, how far I can drive away from the office during my lunch hour and still enjoy my food and what I like to eat. So, while I may theorically go where ever I want, I can realistically only go to a limited number of places. Spiritually, the unbelieving may have the ability to chose God, but thier will is limited by thier sin nature, a desire to rebel against God, His Will and His Word. So theoretically they can "chose" God, realistically thier free-will is limited by sin. It is only after a work of God in somone's heart and mind that someone can "chose" God, and this chosing is a direct result of the work of God. ~Everstudy so did adam have a nature that was inclined towards sin, a nature inclined toward God, or a nuetral nature?

drmark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/28/2008 4:36:46 PM)
Adam was created "very good", so what do you think, john_mark?

john_mark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/28/2008 4:47:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: drmark Adam was created "very good", so what do you think, john_mark? i believe that adam was created with a nature inclined towards God and that he acted aginst that nature when he sinned. those who argue that a person cannot act contrary to their nature seem to either argue that adam was created by God to sin (see calvin's commentary on genesis 3), or that adam had a nuetral will. i was curious which postion everstudy took since his post indicates that he believes that man's choices are limited by his nature. scripture as you point out indicates that adam created very good

everstudy -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/28/2008 5:23:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: john_mark those who argue that a person cannot act contrary to their nature seem to either argue that adam was created by God to sin (see calvin's commentary on genesis 3), or that adam had a nuetral will. I believe that Adam was created unfettered from the sin nature that has ensnared mankind since the fall. I think that Adam had a true free-will. He had the capicity to either choose God or rebel. Unfortunately for us all, he chose to rebel. quote: his post indicates that he believes that man's choices are limited by his nature. Not sure if you misspoke here, but I don't think our choices are limited, but that the ability to make a choice is limited.

john_mark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/28/2008 5:36:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: everstudy quote: ORIGINAL: john_mark those who argue that a person cannot act contrary to their nature seem to either argue that adam was created by God to sin (see calvin's commentary on genesis 3), or that adam had a nuetral will. I believe that Adam was created unfettered from the sin nature that has ensnared mankind since the fall. I think that Adam had a true free-will. He had the capicity to either choose God or rebel. Unfortunately for us all, he chose to rebel. quote: his post indicates that he believes that man's choices are limited by his nature. Not sure if you misspoke here, but I don't think our choices are limited, but that the ability to make a choice is limited. i hope i understand you correctly to say that man's ability to make choices are limited by his nature, if not i apologize. i was just curious if you thought that adam had a nature inclined toward God and you seem to be taking the adam had a nuetral nature position. if are choices are driven or limited by our nature, and adam had a nuetral nature, what drove or limited his choices? because a neutral nature would seem to not choose anything.

everstudy -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/28/2008 7:25:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: john_mark i hope i understand you correctly to say that man's ability to make choices are limited by his nature, if not i apologize. Yes, that is how I understand scripture (especially Romans 8). Romans 8:6-8 says, "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able {to do so,} and those who are in the flesh cannot please God." quote: [I] was just curious if you thought that [A]dam had a nature inclined toward God and you seem to be taking the [A]dam had a nuetral nature position. if are choices are driven or limited by our nature, and [A]dam had a nuetral nature, what drove or limited his choices? because a neutral nature would seem to not choose anything. I think Adam was created with a nature that allowed him to make a choice for God or against God. We don't have that luxury. We can't/won't choose God without God doing a work in us first. Adam didn't need that work done as he hadn't sinned yet. I don't think his nature was neutral, where he wouldn't choose anything, because it's obvious that he did make a choice. Was his nature completely inclined toward God? I don't know. But what I do know, though, is that given the option to sin, he did.

biblicalthought -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/28/2008 7:57:02 PM)
quote: quote: Salvation has to Be a Choice! Yes it does. God's choice Salvation has to Be a Choice! Yes it does. God's choice with man's cooperation. Question: Does God make decisions that depend on man’s cooperation? If God made a decision, can man’s lack of cooperation prevent God’s decision? quote: quote: But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:12-13 Why are you focused on "nor of the will of man", biblicalthought, when verse 12 clearly states we must receive (an act of the will), we must believe (another act of the will), and we must accept the gift (a third act of the will) before we have the right to become children of God? So, I guess I win 3 to 1? The text doesn’t say that. It says “to all that did receive him,” not “we must receive as an act of the will.” It also says “and who believed in his name,” not “we must believe as another act of the will.” Nor does it say “we must accept the gift as a third act of the will” anywhere in verse 12 or 13. If it did, and in the same sentence say that it is “not of the will,” it would be self-refuting. What it does say is that it is not at all credited to the will of the flesh nor the will of man, but of God (v.13). So, drop the 3 to 1 argument, since it is 1 to 0: Scripture – 1, you – 0. quote: quote: It is not by the will of man. Correct, salvation is by the grace of God, through faith (Eph 2:8). Amen. quote: quote: This refutes the pagan philosophic scheme of free-will. Actually, "free will" was the prevailing view of the Early Church Fathers until Augustine got bent out of shape by Pelagius. Are you calling all the ECFs "pagan", biblicalthought? Yes. Many of them were. I shall provide you with irrefutable documentation to support this claim, should you request it. Quick question: was Plato saved, in Christ, etc.? quote: quote: God saves, man only receives. Correct, salvation is only salvific if man receives, by grace through faith! Amen. Very Calvinistic. quote: quote: In an unimagineable demonstration of God's loving grace, he has chosen a people to save. In an unimagineable demonstration of God's loving grace, He has chosen to allow His people the ability to accept His saving grace for all eternity. Praise His Name! Amen again brother! “He has chosen” and “His people” and “His saving grace” are like music to my Reformed ears! Preach it! quote: quote: Praise God, the Author and Finisher of our faith! It's interesting that you would slightly misquote Hebr 12:2, biblicalthought. The original text does not include the word "our" but only "faith", indicating that Jesus Christ is the predecessor to and perfect example of saving faith in general. God does not believe for us, no matter how much your doctrine would wish it so! This is a non-issue. The quoted phrase was a doxology; a spontaneous outburst of praise, not a quote from Hebrews 12. Regardless, “faith” or “our faith” does not imply that God believes for us, nor does “my doctrine” wish it so. This is an ugly straw-man erected for the sole purpose of knocking it down and claiming victory.

drmark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/28/2008 10:20:48 PM)
quote: Does God make decisions that depend on man’s cooperation? If God made a decision, can man’s lack of cooperation prevent God’s decision? God makes some decisions that allow man’s cooperation. If God made a decision (past tense), it may or may not have involved man's cooperation. quote: The text doesn’t say that. It most certainly does. I'm sorry your presuppositions deny you ability to understand. quote: Quick question: was Plato saved, in Christ, etc.? Plato was not an ECF! [8\|] quote: Very Calvinistic. Remember, biblicalthought, Arminius was a good Calvinist before he was an Arminian. quote: Amen again brother! See above, please. quote: This is an ugly straw-man erected for the sole purpose of knocking it down and claiming victory. Yes, I have noticed you're quite familiar with "ugly straw men"! I am not in a contest, biblicalthought, I am upholding the Truth of God's Word.

biblicalthought -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/28/2008 10:40:23 PM)
quote: quote: Quick question: was Plato saved, in Christ, etc.?Plato was not an ECF! Yes, I know that. Was he saved though?

drmark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/28/2008 10:44:56 PM)
I don't know, do you?

biblicalthought -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/28/2008 10:50:30 PM)
quote: quote: quote: But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:12-13 Why are you focused on "nor of the will of man", biblicalthought, when verse 12 clearly states we must receive (an act of the will), we must believe (another act of the will), and we must accept the gift (a third act of the will) before we have the right to become children of God? So, I guess I win 3 to 1? The text doesn’t say that. It says “to all that did receive him,” not “we must receive as an act of the will.” It also says “and who believed in his name,” not “we must believe as another act of the will.” Nor does it say “we must accept the gift as a third act of the will” anywhere in verse 12 or 13. If it did, and in the same sentence say that it is “not of the will,” it would be self-refuting. What it does say is that it is not at all credited to the will of the flesh nor the will of man, but of God (v.13). So, drop the 3 to 1 argument, since it is 1 to 0: Scripture – 1, you – 0. I said, "the text does not say that," and all you said was: quote: It most certainly does. I'm sorry your presuppositions deny you ability to understand. Where does it say we "must receive as an act of the will?" Or "we must believe as another act of the will?" Or anything whatsoever about having to "must accept the gift" at all? It doesn't! What it does say is: NOT - OF- THE - WILL - OF - MAN So, what am I presupposing that is denying my ability to understand, that words have meanings? All you have to do is read it! But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:12-13 What about this one? What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. - Romans 9:14-18 Your hit-n-run method doesn't help. It just makes you look like you're running from the Scriptures. Read them again!

biblicalthought -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/28/2008 11:21:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: biblicalthought quote: quote: Quick question: was Plato saved, in Christ, etc.?Plato was not an ECF! Yes, I know that. Was he saved though? quote: quote: quote: Quick question: was Plato saved, in Christ, etc.?Plato was not an ECF! Yes, I know that. Was he saved though? You answered: quote: I don't know, do you? My answer would be no. Based on his writings that reveal his concepts and ideas, he never came to even the slightest knowledge of the God of the Bible. But I bring this up because of this: quote: quote: quote: This refutes the pagan philosophic scheme of free-will. Actually, "free will" was the prevailing view of the Early Church Fathers until Augustine got bent out of shape by Pelagius. Are you calling all the ECFs "pagan", biblicalthought? Yes. Many of them were. I shall provide you with irrefutable documentation to support this claim, should you request it. Quick question: was Plato saved, in Christ, etc.? According to the ECF, Plato was saved. Appealing to the ECF isn't always the safest thing to do, drmark. Here's a quote from Justin Martyr: “Those who lived according to reason are Christians, even though they were accounted atheists. Such among the Greeks were Socrates and Heracleitos, and those who resembled them.” Still think they're a trustworthy source?

drmark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/28/2008 11:43:15 PM)
quote: Where does it say we "must receive as an act of the will?" Or "we must believe as another act of the will?" Or anything whatsoever about having to "must accept the gift" at all? I really don't have time to explain basic English to someone of your fluency, biblicalthought. The verse states that all who did receive Him were given the right to become His children. Thus, they must have received (an act of the will) in order to have been saved. The verse states that all who believed in His Name were given this right. Thus, they must have believed (an act of the will) in order to have been saved. Finally, those that received and believed (acts of the will) were given this right. Thus, they must have accepted their gift (an act of the will) in order to have been saved. Got it now? quote: What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. - Romans 9:14-18 Here is a fine Commentary on Romans 9 which you will likely dislike as much as my other responses. But, I'm not running from anything, biblicalthought! quote: Still think they're a trustworthy source? Still think they're pagans?

biblicalthought -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/28/2008 11:52:55 PM)
quote: quote: Where does it say we "must receive as an act of the will?" Or "we must believe as another act of the will?" Or anything whatsoever about having to "must accept the gift" at all?I really don't have time to explain basic English to someone of your fluency, biblicalthought. The verse states that all who did receive Him were given the right to become His children. Thus, they must have received (an act of the will) in order to have been saved. The verse states that all who believed in His Name were given this right. Thus, they must have believed (an act of the will) in order to have been saved. Finally, those that received and believed (acts of the will) were given this right. Thus, they must have accepted their gift (an act of the will) in order to have been saved. Got it now? Do you care to comment on what is said only a few words later? "not of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." The Bible says it's not of the will of man, yet you say it is of the will of man. Given the free will option to choose, you say choose drmark? You asked: "Still think they're pagans?" Which ones? Some - big time.

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