RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (Full Version)

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biblicalthought -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/29/2008 12:03:55 AM)

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What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. - Romans 9:14-18Here is a fine Commentary on Romans 9 which you will likely dislike as much as my other responses. But, I'm not running from anything, biblicalthought!


C'mon. Clarke? OK, I admit, I love much of Clarke's commentary. But even many Methodists consider him a heretic because of his distorted concept of the Trinity. i don't know about you, but I'm Trinitarian. If you're not, then Clarke shouldn't bug you too much. But if you are, then giant red flags go up when A. Clarke is mentioned. He denied the pre-existence of Christ, the pre-Incarnate Word, etc. That is some serious error to not back down from.

Besides, his commentary on 9:15 basically says nothing about the text. Do you have another option?



john_mark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/29/2008 3:48:50 PM)

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ORIGINAL: everstudy

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ORIGINAL: john_mark
i hope i understand you correctly to say that man's ability to make choices are limited by his nature, if not i apologize.


Yes, that is how I understand scripture (especially Romans 8).

Romans 8:6-8 says, "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able {to do so,} and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

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[I] was just curious if you thought that [A]dam had a nature inclined toward God and you seem to be taking the [A]dam had a nuetral nature position. if are choices are driven or limited by our nature, and [A]dam had a nuetral nature, what drove or limited his choices? because a neutral nature would seem to not choose anything.


I think Adam was created with a nature that allowed him to make a choice for God or against God. We don't have that luxury. We can't/won't choose God without God doing a work in us first. Adam didn't need that work done as he hadn't sinned yet.

I don't think his nature was neutral, where he wouldn't choose anything, because it's obvious that he did make a choice. Was his nature completely inclined toward God? I don't know. But what I do know, though, is that given the option to sin, he did.


i guess where i am going with this is this: if man's choices are limited by his nature do you understand that to mean that man cannot act against his nature? with adam you seem to be ruling out the idea of a nuetral nature, so that seems to leave either a nature inclined toward God, or a nature hostile to God.

If adam had a nature inclined toward God and man cannot act against his nature adam could not have sinned could he?

and if adam had a nature hostile to God then what is the effect of the fall of man?

i dont think we as humans fully understand the relationship our nature plays in our decisions. we can make infernces and apply human logic, but still we are left less than satisfied.

paul wrote in romans 7

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

whether you understand paul to be speaking as a saved man or a lost man in this passage, paul's basic argument is that he acts against his will or desire. he does the very thing he does not want to do. this passage for me muddies the idea that our choices are limited by our nature.



everstudy -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/29/2008 7:33:10 PM)

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ORIGINAL: john_mark
i guess where i am going with this is this: if man's choices are limited by his nature do you understand that to mean that man cannot act against his nature? with adam you seem to be ruling out the idea of a nuetral nature, so that seems to leave either a nature inclined toward God, or a nature hostile to God.


I'm not so sure it's just an either/or when it comes to the nature that Adam had. I'll address acting against our nature below.

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If adam had a nature inclined toward God and man cannot act against his nature adam could not have sinned could he?

and if adam had a nature hostile to God then what is the effect of the fall of man?


We assume that Adam didn't have a sin nature, therefore it follows that he wasn't predisposed to fight against God. I can only repeat my earlier post "I believe that Adam was created unfettered from the sin nature that has ensnared mankind since the fall. I think that Adam had a true free-will. He had the capicity to either choose God or rebel."

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i dont think we as humans fully understand the relationship our nature plays in our decisions. we can make infernces and apply human logic, but still we are left less than satisfied.


I agree. We can't know fully, but we can understand some of it. I know why I make certain plans on the weekends, it's my nature to be lazy and sit around the house, therefore I will make no plans for tomorrow. I am also quite the intravert, and it goes against my nature to be overly social with people I don't know, therefore I will spend time with people I am already comfortable with.

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...whether you understand paul to be speaking as a saved man or a lost man in this passage, paul's basic argument is that he acts against his will or desire. he does the very thing he does not want to do. this passage for me muddies the idea that our choices are limited by our nature.


I think this verse proves my original point. I may want to do something, but am unable because I am hindered by something. My original example was getting fast food. I may want a Big Mac, but there's no McDonalds around, so I can't have one. What I want is immaterial to what I can actually get. Paul here says that he is acting against his desire, not his nature.

Can we act against our nature? To a point. Like I said earlier, I'm shy, so it's a battle to get out and meet people. But sometimes I have to for business or whatever, so I have to go against my nature and start shaking hands.

Bringing this to Paul's words, people have a moral compass and know what's right and wrong, but do they actually always do what's right? When it comes to choosing God, however, in our sinful nature we will not even want to chose the Truth. It doesn't come down to not being able to choose God if you wanted to because your sin nature won't let you, it's deeper than that. Our sin nature screams out in animosity toward God, without Christ we hold Him as an enemy worth our contempt. It takes a work of God in our hearts and minds that cause us to even have the desire to choose God. So when people reject God, they aren't acting against their will, their acting in tandam with it.

~ Everstudy



ImBornAgain -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (2/29/2008 10:20:32 PM)

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But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:12-13


Stephen,

The bold words in the quote above are talking about being born of God and who/what does the born again process. The born again process is not of blood, nor is it by the will of the flesh, nor is it by the will of man, but the born again process is done by God.

The words that aren't in bold in the quote above are about the decision to receive Him and His name and who every makes this decision God gives the right to become the children of God, but then God is the one that does the process of being born again.



biblicalthought -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/1/2008 4:10:03 AM)

What do you mean by "process?"



drmark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/1/2008 8:35:10 AM)

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The words that aren't in bold in the quote above are about the decision to receive Him and His name and who every makes this decision God gives the right to become the children of God, but then God is the one that does the process of being born again.
Exactly, ImBornAgain! The "process" of salvation involves justification, regeneration, and adoption, all of which occur essentially simultaneusly at the point of salvation. These gracious works derive solely from God's love and mercy, but are only obtained by those who seek the Lord through faith preceded by repentance.



Ezra -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/1/2008 10:06:26 AM)

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ORIGINAL: biblicalthought
Salvation has to Be a Choice! Yes it does. God's choice.


Salvation is God's choice in that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. If grace was irresistible (by compulsion), all would be saved.

Salvation is also man's choice in that only those who believe the Gospel and repent shall be saved.

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But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:12-13

It is not by the will of man.


What is not by the will of man?

Let's look at this passage very carefully and see where man's will comes in and where God's will come's in (using the KJV):

But as many as received Him -- this implies and confirms that some received Him as Savior while others did not. As a matter of fact, the preceding verse says "His own received Him not". Receiving Christ as Lord and Savior is an act of the will.

To them gave He power to become the sons of God -- this tells us that in order to become a child of God one must receive Christ. All human beings are not automatically children of God.

Even to them that believe on His name -- This is a corollary to receiving Christ. Before we receive Him we must believe that Jesus (Yeshua) of Nazareth is indeed the Son of God, the very Christ who died for our sins and rose again for our justification.

Which were born...[not of the will of man]...but of God -- this is speaking of the New Birth and how it comes about. It is supernatural, and man's will cannot bring it about. It is only by the power of the Holy Spirit that a sinner is born from above or born of God (Tit. 3:4-7). However this is a consequence of believing and receiving, therefore man's will is involved on one side, and God's will is involved on the other.

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So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.


This must be properly understood in the light of the fact that God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved. God has mercy on all who believe and repent, and "whosoever will" may come and take of the Water of Life freely.

But those who resist God's grace and mercy are indeed eventually hardened. A careful study of Pharoah's resistance to God's will proves that God gave Pharoah numerous opportunities to repent, but he rejected them all.



drmark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/1/2008 10:47:02 AM)

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But those who resist God's grace and mercy are indeed eventually hardened. A careful study of Pharoah's resistance to God's will proves that God gave Pharoah numerous opportunities to repent, but he rejected them all.
Good point, Ezra! It's also instructive to remember that Pharoah "hardened his own heart" on several occasions as described in Ex 3:19, 7:22, 8:15 and 9:34. There is no Scriptural support for irresistible grace!



Ezra -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/1/2008 5:40:09 PM)

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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But those who resist God's grace and mercy are indeed eventually hardened. A careful study of Pharoah's resistance to God's will proves that God gave Pharoah numerous opportunities to repent, but he rejected them all.
Good point, Ezra! It's also instructive to remember that Pharoah "hardened his own heart" on several occasions as described in Ex 3:19, 7:22, 8:15 and 9:34. There is no Scriptural support for irresistible grace!


Amen! Had Pharoah repented he would would be been spared God's judgment. Had Sodom repented, it would have been saved. Nineveh -- which was equally wicked, if not more so -- repented, and ALL Nineveh was saved. God's grace is resistible, but it is also amazing grace! No mortal man can comprehend the grace of God through Jesus Christ our Lord.



john_mark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/3/2008 10:53:02 AM)

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ORIGINAL: everstudy

Our sin nature screams out in animosity toward God, without Christ we hold Him as an enemy worth our contempt. It takes a work of God in our hearts and minds that cause us to even have the desire to choose God. So when people reject God, they aren't acting against their will, their acting in tandam with it.

~ Everstudy

i am guessing you would agree that man can only have one nature. so when christians reject God by sinning, are they acting in accordance with their nature or against their nature?



drmark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/3/2008 3:53:15 PM)

john_mark, I think this is a very delicate yet perceptive question which gets right to the heart of salvation as a choice. If the unsaved all indeed have the freedom to accept God's grace to be saved or reject it to be damned, then surely we Believers do not magically give up our moral responsibility the moment we are saved, never to act again of our own free will. This makes no sense to me at all!



Coach_mm -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/5/2008 11:59:11 AM)

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ORIGINAL: ImBornAgain

Salvation Has To Be A Choice Because Love Has To Be A Choice



I'm struggling with the title here. When we get to Heaven are all of us going to love God? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say yes. Are we going to have a choice to not love Him? I'm going to go out on another limb and say we won't have a choice to not love God. Is that love that all in Heaven have for God going to be real love. I think so. I would agree we are going to chose to love God and it is really going to be a choice we make but we won't be capable of making any other choice but it won't mean we are robots. I'm sick of hearing people say if you believe God chose us in the way Calvinism is preached it means He created us to be robots. It doesn't follow that you have to have a choice to love something for it really to be love.

Was John the Baptist saved before he was born into the world???? I'm saying yes he jumped in His mother's womb. Luke 1:41 did John the Baptist have a choice to not be the forerunner for Christ? Luke 1:5-24 No He didn't or he would have made God out to be a liar. Did he truly love God? Did he really want to live for Him? No doubt about it.



drmark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/5/2008 3:42:43 PM)

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I'm struggling with the title here. When we get to Heaven are all of us going to love God? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say yes.
This doesn't seem like much of a limb to me, coach! 1 John 4:7-21 leaves no doubt that Christians must love God and others! The real question is how do we do that - through our own ability or through the gracious power of the Holy Spirit. I vote for the latter!



Coach_mm -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/5/2008 6:54:51 PM)

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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I'm struggling with the title here. When we get to Heaven are all of us going to love God? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say yes.
This doesn't seem like much of a limb to me, coach! 1 John 4:7-21 leaves no doubt that Christians must love God and others! The real question is how do we do that - through our own ability or through the gracious power of the Holy Spirit. I vote for the latter!


I agree that the Holy Spirit does the saving. It's funny to me that when we pray for a non-believer we pray as a Calvinist. Lord please change there heart...Lord save them from there sin.....Lord make them love and serve you. We pray that the Spirit causes one to turn to Christ yet many think it is man choosing God.

I'm sick of hearing that God didn't create a bunch of robots but He created man so they could to love because that is the only way for it to be true love.
This is the only argument I ever hear from someone who doesn't believe that God does the saving from start to finish. Heb. 12:2



Ezra -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/5/2008 10:05:11 PM)

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This is the only argument I ever hear from someone who doesn't believe that God does the saving from start to finish. Heb. 12:2


Of course God does the saving from start to finish. He also does the "drawing" to Christ, the convicting and the convincing. But man does the believing and repenting. Without that, there is no saving.

Why should it be considered strange that God expects men to respond to the Gospel? Isn't that the reason for it's preaching?

"How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And shall shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?... So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom. 10:14-17).



ImBornAgain -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/5/2008 10:20:04 PM)

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I agree that the Holy Spirit does the saving. It's funny to me that when we pray for a non-believer we pray as a Calvinist. Lord please change there heart...Lord save them from there sin.....Lord make them love and serve you. We pray that the Spirit causes one to turn to Christ yet many think it is man choosing God.

I'm sick of hearing that God didn't create a bunch of robots but He created man so they could to love because that is the only way for it to be true love.
This is the only argument I ever hear from someone who doesn't believe that God does the saving from start to finish. Heb. 12:2


Coach_mm,

Are you saying then that God makes us or reprograms us to love Him, so we don't have any choice but to love Him?

If our choice is taken out of the salvation formula, it would then be all God’s choice and we would have no part in the process.

So if you think this way, wouldn't you be saying then that God wants to keep us sinning since most believers still sin out of selfishness?

If we have no choice in this process of salvation, wouldn't God just zap every sinful desire right out of every believer?

God is all powerful. Why would He send us through this agonizing sanctification? If God does everything and we have no part in our salvation decisions, wouldn't God just totally cleanse all our sins from us from the start so we don't have the consequences of those sins any longer, or does God somehow enjoy watching us struggle in our sins?

God's Word says that he wants all people to be saved. If God is the only one that decides who gets saved and who doesn't, wouldn't He save everybody since His Word says He would like everybody saved?



Coach_mm -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/6/2008 2:48:29 AM)

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ORIGINAL: ImBornAgain

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I agree that the Holy Spirit does the saving. It's funny to me that when we pray for a non-believer we pray as a Calvinist. Lord please change there heart...Lord save them from there sin.....Lord make them love and serve you. We pray that the Spirit causes one to turn to Christ yet many think it is man choosing God.

I'm sick of hearing that God didn't create a bunch of robots but He created man so they could to love because that is the only way for it to be true love.
This is the only argument I ever hear from someone who doesn't believe that God does the saving from start to finish. Heb. 12:2


Coach_mm,

Are you saying then that God makes us or reprograms us to love Him, so we don't have any choice but to love Him? Sure... God created us to love Him and I believe that some have no choice but to love Him. I gave the Example of John the Baptist earlier he jumped in his mothers womb when Mary came to see Elizabeth. Don't tell me you think John the Baptist made a choice in the womb to love HIs Savior. This was God given and planned by God.

If our choice is taken out of the salvation formula, it would then be all God’s choice and we would have no part in the process. John 6:44-45 is clear that no can come to the Father unless He draws them toward HIm and all He does draw come to Him.

So if you think this way, wouldn't you be saying then that God wants to keep us sinning since most believers still sin out of selfishness? I don't know how you got this conclusion. I think God hates sin and I could give you verses if you need them but I think we agree that God doesn't desire for man to sin.

If we have no choice in this process of salvation, wouldn't God just zap every sinful desire right out of every believer? I think God is going to do that when He returns for His elect.

God is all powerful. Why would He send us through this agonizing sanctification? If God does everything and we have no part in our salvation decisions, wouldn't God just totally cleanse all our sins from us from the start so we don't have the consequences of those sins any longer, or does God somehow enjoy watching us struggle in our sins?God is all powerful and I'm unable to get into His mind. In Ephesians He does explain some of this. Eph. 1:3-12 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both[a] which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

God's Word says that he wants all people to be saved. If God is the only one that decides who gets saved and who doesn't, wouldn't He save everybody since His Word says He would like everybody saved? God does desire all to be saved. When He created Adam He made man without a sin nature. Man freely sinned and by doing so brought judgement upon himself. All we'll be judged on judgement day but not all well be saved. Why God doesn't save everyone is beyond me but if you read Romans 9:14-24 it does give some insight.





drmark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/6/2008 6:40:58 PM)

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It's funny to me that when we pray for a non-believer we pray as a Calvinist. Lord please change there heart...Lord save them from there sin.....Lord make them love and serve you. We pray that the Spirit causes one to turn to Christ yet many think it is man choosing God.
Sorry, coach, I pray for lots of unbelievers, but never as a Calvinist! In fact, why should a Calvinist pray for the lost anyway, if only a limited number of "elect" are unable to resist God's saving grace and noboby but Him knows who they are? I pray for God's prevenient grace to soften the sinner's heart, His saving grace to provide the faith needed for one to believe, and His sanctifying grace for all of us to love and obey the Lord for a lifetime. That's praying as a Wesleyan/Arminian!



Coach_mm -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/7/2008 11:54:44 AM)

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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It's funny to me that when we pray for a non-believer we pray as a Calvinist. Lord please change there heart...Lord save them from there sin.....Lord make them love and serve you. We pray that the Spirit causes one to turn to Christ yet many think it is man choosing God.
Sorry, coach, I pray for lots of unbelievers, but never as a Calvinist! In fact, why should a Calvinist pray for the lost anyway, if only a limited number of "elect" are unable to resist God's saving grace and noboby but Him knows who they are? I pray for God's prevenient grace to soften the sinner's heart, His saving grace to provide the faith needed for one to believe, and His sanctifying grace for all of us to love and obey the Lord for a lifetime. That's praying as a Wesleyan/Arminian!


You are still asking God to impose His will on the unbeliever. You can't say we have free will and then say it is logical to pray that God change a sinners heart. God would then be imposing His will upon the sinner and the sinner wouldn't be making a decision based on His own free will but rather he would be making the decision based on God softening the heart and giving the grace. If we truly believe in "free will" we would have to pray that God allow the sinner to make the decion based on his own free will and that God stay out of it. The Calvinist prays for lost souls for a few reasons. First we are called to pray for the unsaved. Second and not near as important as the first we have no clue who the elect are only God knows those He predestined. If someone says they are a Calvinist and then says I don't need to spread the Gospel because God is going to save His elect then he's got a wacked out theology. The Bible is clear we are to make disciples of all nations.

On a side note if Armanism is true I couldn't live with myself any time an unsaved human who I have had conversations about salvation with passed away. I would feel I didn't present the Gospel the right way, I should have done this, I blew it and now someone is spending eternity in hell because I failed as an evangelist.

Matt



Coach_mm -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/7/2008 11:58:56 AM)

Can someone please show me where John the Baptist used his free will to jump in his mother's womb? And could he have chosen to not be the forerunner for Christ?



Gloryandgrace -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/7/2008 11:38:14 PM)

Its interesting that no matter what happens in most posts, it all boils down to how one understands the sovereignty of God. When you are calvinistic, reformed or biblical you choose God's perspective and form your doctrines from it.
When you are arminian or free-will you form your doctrines from mans responsibility toward God.

Salvation is a choice, Gods choice. Its Gods choice because its God offering the salvation.
Man is not the one initiating the necessity for salvation or calling for Christ to come and be crucified. God has from the beginning made the choice to save some men. This is so blatantly biblically obvious its moronic to debate it.

If you pose the question "is salvation a choice because love is a choice?" you are getting ready to set up your responders for the answer you want to hear. But Im sure you wanted to hear that man chooses. In truth man does chose but only because God has initiated the necessity of the choice. God initiated the call to salvation the election of some individuals, the willingness to send His own Son to sacrifice Himself in order to satisfy the Holiness of Gods law.

Should you be praised for making a decision to believe when you must have read that your belief is given to you by way of Gods own Word planted in your heart? Should you take credit for a choice that has only one other option and that is eternal punishment within the lake of fire? Is that option going to make you look 'smart' because you chose what will in the end bring you endless joy and the thrill of knowing God himself? Most would say thats a no brainer, in fact its really not a choice at all once you see the optional 'warmer living conditions'.

Oh I know someone is going to talk up free will. But what part of free will emerges from the spiritually dead, rebellious, God hating, carnal enmity within the unregenerate that will latch on to Jesus Christ in order to obey the gospel? Im told mans free will reaches beyond its own God-hating and will accept Christ. But I dont see that in the bible, I see where God himself must plant the seed of his Word in a good heart. That God himself must convict of sin, righteousness and judgment in order for a man to know enough to respond to a gospel call.

Again, talk up choice, the choice of men and you will find man taking credit for responding to Gods loving initiatives. I believe God loves so He chose, God loves so He sent His Son, God loves so He prepared a way, revealed the truth, and bestowes eternal life. Just what part of a mans will should a christian glory in? What part of chosing do we praise ourselves for and create dogmas in which that will is sanctified to the point of stealing the glory of Gods intention to save some of us?

John



jfaye -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/7/2008 11:39:39 PM)

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ImBornAgain

God created us to have free will so we could make the choice to love Him and willingly be obedient to His commandments out of that love.


So true and with obedience we often have to make some very difficult decisions![sm=sadquestion.gif]

And, sometimes ultimately doing the right thing costs us, but, it is still better to suffer
for doing what's right, than.....'[&o]

Even if the consequences are not what I expected, btw![sm=eek.gif][sm=unsure.gif]



Coach_mm -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/8/2008 2:50:35 AM)

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ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace

Its interesting that no matter what happens in most posts, it all boils down to how one understands the sovereignty of God. When you are calvinistic, reformed or biblical you choose God's perspective and form your doctrines from it.
When you are arminian or free-will you form your doctrines from mans responsibility toward God.

Salvation is a choice, Gods choice. Its Gods choice because its God offering the salvation.
Man is not the one initiating the necessity for salvation or calling for Christ to come and be crucified. God has from the beginning made the choice to save some men. This is so blatantly biblically obvious its moronic to debate it.

If you pose the question "is salvation a choice because love is a choice?" you are getting ready to set up your responders for the answer you want to hear. But Im sure you wanted to hear that man chooses. In truth man does chose but only because God has initiated the necessity of the choice. God initiated the call to salvation the election of some individuals, the willingness to send His own Son to sacrifice Himself in order to satisfy the Holiness of Gods law.

Should you be praised for making a decision to believe when you must have read that your belief is given to you by way of Gods own Word planted in your heart? Should you take credit for a choice that has only one other option and that is eternal punishment within the lake of fire? Is that option going to make you look 'smart' because you chose what will in the end bring you endless joy and the thrill of knowing God himself? Most would say thats a no brainer, in fact its really not a choice at all once you see the optional 'warmer living conditions'.

Oh I know someone is going to talk up free will. But what part of free will emerges from the spiritually dead, rebellious, God hating, carnal enmity within the unregenerate that will latch on to Jesus Christ in order to obey the gospel? Im told mans free will reaches beyond its own God-hating and will accept Christ. But I dont see that in the bible, I see where God himself must plant the seed of his Word in a good heart. That God himself must convict of sin, righteousness and judgment in order for a man to know enough to respond to a gospel call.

Again, talk up choice, the choice of men and you will find man taking credit for responding to Gods loving initiatives. I believe God loves so He chose, God loves so He sent His Son, God loves so He prepared a way, revealed the truth, and bestowes eternal life. Just what part of a mans will should a christian glory in? What part of chosing do we praise ourselves for and create dogmas in which that will is sanctified to the point of stealing the glory of Gods intention to save some of us?

John


Great post!



Sammy_S -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/8/2008 3:27:10 AM)

For one to claim that salvation is choice is to highly esteem man and to think lowly of Holy God.

Do you believe scripture when it says that man is really spiritually dead?If you do,when was the last time you saw a dead person make a choice?Did lazurus have any say in his ressurection?Or did he willingly and joyfully awake because of the will and power of Christ?Did Lazurus have the power to deny the will of God in ressurecting him?No! And he arose gladly just like men who are awoken spiritually.

Genesis 6:5 says:Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Clearly,man's every thought and intent was continually evil!Do you see free-will in that verse?Man is totally depraved and imcapable of doing any good.Indeed his "righteousness is a filthy rag worthy to be stepped on by the worst sinner.

So clearly,a man as wicked as that cannot and will not accept the Gospel or choose God with that exceedingly wicked heart of his unless the Lord in his undeserved mercy steps in.

Ezekiel 36:24-27 says...

quote:

For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them


He says that he will remove the heart of stone(the wicked and one that cannot feel anything/stimuli) with a new heart of flesh(that will respond to stimuli).

He also says "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Does that sound like "free-will' to you?

We Love him because he Loved us first!This act of mercy is defined as an as one making like like robots but it is not true it is the same as the Lord having 100% authority in our natural birth.And it is perfectly just because the Lord is Just.It is even a scandal that we wretcted beings are justified and dare call upon his name,yet we try to take away his glory in the greatest miracle man has ever seen?Weshould be ashamed.

Man does and must believe,respond and so forth but it is only because he has been enabled by the Lord,our faith is not from ourselves but of God.

Acts 13:48 says:Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed(arranged/predetermined) to eternal life believed.



Ezra -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/8/2008 7:24:05 AM)

quote:

it all boils down to how one understands the sovereignty of God.


The Gospel focuses on God's grace, and the grace of God "bringeth salvation to ALL men". Thus the sovereignty of God nullifies the idea that God's saving grace is limited to only some sinners.

quote:

Salvation is a choice, Gods choice. Its Gods choice because its God offering the salvation.


And how often must it be stated that this is only one side of the equation?

If salvation were by fiat, ALL human beings would be saved regardless of whether they believe the Gospel, since God is "not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance".

Since salvation is not by fiat, but a gift offered to those who believe and repent, there must be a choice on the sinner's part: "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve".

Why is it so difficult for some to actually believe Scripture, rather than the doctrines of men?



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