RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (Full Version)

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Gloryandgrace -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/8/2008 10:55:01 AM)

HI Ezra:

You know me Ezra, you have probably read many many of my posts, you know that we have both defended the same bible and the same Jesus from numerous heretical detractors.

In reply to your responses over my post, you know I believe a man must chose, he must believe and accept, he must call out to God and he must repent. All of these things are as biblical as Jesus Christ being God in the Flesh. But what I focus on, is not the response of a man toward God, but the love of God to initiate a relationship with men or any man for that matter.

I view this from Gods perspective as best I can. I dont preach to men this form of message.
"Other men have willed to be saved so with your own will, obtain that same salvation".
I base the call of God upon Gods initiative he has already taken to save men.
"Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners". This is a declaration of Gods intent not mans, therefore I place emphasis upon what scripture prioritizes. I do not reverse the order of Gods intention and thereby steal Gods glory from him.

Salvation was fixed in the mind of God before men sinned, we know this from various verses.
Exo 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to show in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.
Deu 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
Deu 7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

I have not 'disbelieved scripture' I have affirmed it in that I do not put the cause of Christ's crucificion and resurrection after mans spiritually dead and sin-laden condition. I place it before.
God knew that sin entering the world would bring about these results and because of it, determined in ages past Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. God was the initiator, and therefore the choser of any man to obtain that salvation offered.
It was love that constrained God to express the mercies and lovingkindness that we experience together. I preach God chose first, and loved first and came to the aid of dead men, hateful men that were not seeking God, but God rather was seeking them and aiding them to see the wonderful grace and kindnesses in Jesus Christ.

John



Ezra -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/9/2008 5:35:27 PM)

John:

Strangely enough, I am in full agreement -- 100% -- with everything written in the above post. I too would never preach "Other men have willed to be saved etc". That is not the Gospel, but what is summed up in Jn. 3:16 is that God is the one who initiates and complete salvation.

At the same time you and I agree that sinners must believe and repent, but salvation is wholly of the Lord. Therefore I do not understand why there should be any differences.

God's sovereignty is in no way diminished because He commands faith and repentance. But salvation is less about sovereignty and more about the grace of God. The Lamb of God was indeed slain from before the foundation of the world, but unless the sinner believes on the Lord Jesus Christ and repents, that offering for sin will not benefit him. And notice that election is "according to foreknowledge".

Thus we can conclude:

1. All men (humans) are sinners.
2. Christ died for the sins of the world.
3. God commands all men everywhere to repent.
4. God saves all who call upon the name of the Lord.
5. Those who believe are elect according to God's foreknowledge.



john_mark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/10/2008 10:43:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy_S

For one to claim that salvation is choice is to highly esteem man and to think lowly of Holy God.

Do you believe scripture when it says that man is really spiritually dead?If you do,when was the last time you saw a dead person make a choice?Did lazurus have any say in his ressurection?Or did he willingly and joyfully awake because of the will and power of Christ?Did Lazurus have the power to deny the will of God in ressurecting him?No! And he arose gladly just like men who are awoken spiritually.

Genesis 6:5 says:Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Clearly,man's every thought and intent was continually evil!Do you see free-will in that verse?Man is totally depraved and imcapable of doing any good.Indeed his "righteousness is a filthy rag worthy to be stepped on by the worst sinner.



can you be more specific as to just what a person who is dead in their sins can and cannot do.

the reason i ask is because when i read scripture i find that those who are dead in their sins can

pray to God, ask for mercy and recieve mercy

genesis 4

13 Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is too great to bear! 14 "Behold, You have driven me this day from the face of the ground; and from Your face I will be hidden, and I will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me." 15 So the LORD said to him, "Therefore whoever kills Cain, vengeance will be taken on him sevenfold." And the LORD appointed a sign for Cain, so that no one finding him would slay him.

from romans 1 we read

19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

so we know that dead people know about God's invisible attributes, His eternal power, and divine nature


in romans 2 we read

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

here we find that lost gentiles can do instinctively the things of the Law, that the Law is written on their hearts, that their conscience bears witness to the Law showing their moral understanding of the Law

if we look at hebrews 6,

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame

if you hold to idea that the elect cannot loose thier salvation then in this passage we find dead people being enlightened, tasting of the heavanly gift, partakers of the Holy Spirit.

from 2 peter 2 we read

20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

again if you understand that the elect cannot loose their salvation then this is speaking of the dead who escape the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and they know the way of righteousness

from luke 9 we find lost people casting out demons, healing the sick, and proclaim the kingdom of God.

1 And He called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all the demons and to heal diseases. 2 And He sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to perform healing.


remeber that judas was one of the 12 mention in luke 9

so i ask what is it exactly that dead people cannot do?



cognitivemagic -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/10/2008 6:30:28 PM)

quote:

God teaches us about our relationship with Him through the relationships that He has established in humanity. Love in marriage demands that we make the choice to love, even when we don't feel like it. Love in our relationships with our children begins with nurturing, then progresses to establishing expectations to be obeyed (discipline), and then progresses to a reciprocal relationship of where love, sharing, patience, sacrifice, honor, respect, should occur. (I'm sure I could add to that last list.)


Beautifully stated, Heavendweller.

quote:

Salvation has to Be a Choice! Yes it does. God's choice.


Ok, so what makes you think you're "chosen"? You aren't mentioned in the Bible. Are you a prophet of your own destiny? Can you really say that you aren't going to be one of those of whom St. Paul warns may be cut off the Olive tree in Romans 11?

quote:

It is only after a work of God in somone's heart and mind that someone can "chose" God, and this chosing is a direct result of the work of God.


But we still "choose"; that's what we do. Just because God enlightens us (John 1:9) doesn't mean we will automatically come into the light:

"That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.....He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God"
--John 1:9,11,12

First, we receive Him and then we receive the right to become children of God. Notice the ordo salutis in these verses. Nevertheless, we must decide.

This is determined neither wholly apart from the will of God nor solely by the will of God. Rather, it's a co-operation between the wills of God and man.

That's precisely St. Paul's point in Ephesians:

"For by grace (i.e. God's part) you have been saved through faith (i.e. man's part), and that not of yourselves (i.e. not Pelagian/human monergism)"

Why would St. Paul have bothered to make this distinction between "grace" and "faith" if they were both acts of God? It's almost as if the Calvinist makes "faith" some kind of force that works through the passive conduit of humanity, like a pipe. In that case, it would be fair to say that the only "will" in the universe is God's!!

That's why I've always felt that the supralapsarian/infralapsarian distinction was hollow and deceptive in it's attempt to sidestep the origin of evil. If man could freely choose before the fall, and in fact "chose" to sin, how is God's sovereignty vitiated by choice? If man did not "choose" to sin, then the origin of sin lies squarely on God's shoulders. This "distinction" eventually dissolves into contradiction or absurdity.

What does this verse in Leviticus 19:5 (NKJV) mean:

"And if you offer a sacrifice of a peace offering to the Lord, you shall offer it of your own free-will."

That's an odd thing to say if God sovereignly determines whatsoever comes to pass.

Or what about St. Paul's words in Philemon 12-14:

"I am sending him back. You therefore receive him, that is, my own heart, whom I wished to keep with me, that on your behalf he might minister to me in my chains for the gospel. But without your consent I wanted to do nothing, that your good deed might not be by compulsion, as it were, but voluntary.

Another odd verse....but not for the non-Calvinist.



Coach_mm -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (3/13/2008 2:03:44 AM)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHilc3rTC2U

Very good video on election and human choice by John MacArthur.



FreeGrace -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (4/1/2008 3:52:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: biblicalthought

Salvation has to Be a Choice! Yes it does. God's choice.

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:12-13

It is not by the will of man. This refutes the pagan philosophic scheme of free-will. God saves, man only receives.

No, it doesn't, bt. Please read John 1:12 more carefully the next time. God most surely saves, and who does He save? Those who believe. iow, man does not receive until he believes. For all practical purposes, they go together. Man receives the moment he believes.

So there is no "pagan philosophic scheme of free will", as you imagine.

When Scripture says "it is not by the will of man", it is referring to the fact that man cannot "will" himself saved. He must be saved God's way, which is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Another way to understand the phrase "it is not by the will of man" is that man cannot save himself. The phrase has zero to do with choosing or believing.

quote:

In an unimagineable demonstration of God's loving grace, he has chosen a people to save. Praise God, the Author and Finisher of our faith!

The "people" He has chosen to save are all believers. See John 6:40.



drmark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (4/2/2008 5:57:59 PM)

biblicalthought (poorly self-acclaimed name) hasn't posted in over a month, FreeGrace. I suspect he took his hyper-Calvinist marbles to some other playground. [8|]



restored08 -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (4/9/2008 1:33:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Where does it say we "must receive as an act of the will?" Or "we must believe as another act of the will?" Or anything whatsoever about having to "must accept the gift" at all?
I really don't have time to explain basic English to someone of your fluency, biblicalthought. The verse states that all who did receive Him were given the right to become His children. Thus, they must have received (an act of the will) in order to have been saved. The verse states that all who believed in His Name were given this right. Thus, they must have believed (an act of the will) in order to have been saved. Finally, those that received and believed (acts of the will) were given this right. Thus, they must have accepted their gift (an act of the will) in order to have been saved. Got it now?

drmark, everything is not a debate! An act of will is simply choosing. Don't you believed that God gave us all a freedom of choice? People that are JW's choose to be that. People that drink coffee instead of tea choose to do that. IT'S A CHOICE, AN ACT OF WILL. Or don't you believe in free will and that you have the right to choose what you believe, hear, recieve, how you live, what you say and how you govern your life. You have to because you have a free will and you choose to be so contrary to simple things.

quote:

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. - Romans 9:14-18
Here is a fine Commentary on Romans 9 which you will likely dislike as much as my other responses. But, I'm not running from anything, biblicalthought!

quote:

Still think they're a trustworthy source?
Still think they're pagans?


It's easy to see you are a very intellegent and educated by how eloquently you phrase words. You have a lot of knowledge and it will be received better if you humble yourself, so that we may percieve you as Christ like and not just a debator.
Titus 2:2



drmark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (4/9/2008 5:35:28 PM)

I'm really not interested in others' receptions or perceptions of me through an impersonal electronic discussion board, r08. My family and friends know my humility in Christ day-by-day. I am interested in sharing the truth which is often muddled beyond recognition on these forums. If others might receive knowledge from me then it should be for truth's sake, not for my style of presentation. Thank you for your constructive criticism - I have accepted it in the same spirit it was rendered.



restored08 -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (4/10/2008 9:30:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

I'm really not interested in others' receptions or perceptions of me through an impersonal electronic discussion board, r08. My family and friends know my humility in Christ day-by-day. I am interested in sharing the truth which is often muddled beyond recognition on these forums. If others might receive knowledge from me then it should be for truth's sake, not for my style of presentation. Thank you for your constructive criticism - I have accepted it in the same spirit it was rendered.



drmark, first let me ask your forgiveness, I have abviously offended you and that was not my intent. But people can intend read comments and feel the spirit which it is rendered. But I assure you, and please know, that I meant no disrespect by my comment. I do believe you are very intellegent. But also know that some people can't recieve (or rather I say won't recieve) things, even if it is the truth. I admire your intentions and again PLEASE forgive me. And I would also like to communicate with you more on spiritual issues. Is there a way swap email addresses?



drmark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (4/11/2008 5:20:51 AM)

Thank you for your apology but it is completely unnecessary since you in no way offended me with your post. Indeed, this clearly illustrates my point that we cannot remotely understand one another's feelings, intents, and attitudes solely through electronic discussion on an internet forum. I attempted to reassure you with my last statement "Thank you for your constructive criticism - I have accepted it in the same spirit it was rendered." - and you apparently mistook it for offense on my part. Similarly, many on these threads have apparently mistaken my zeal and bluntness in discussion style as a lack of humility when my primary purpose is to elevate truth, not myself.

So again, thanks for your concern, restored08, as you seem to be sincere in your desire to share spiritual issues in a Christ-like manner. I am humbled by your compliments and will consider better ways to dialogue in future threads. If you wish to send me a PM regarding further discussion, I will respond as the Spirit directs me. God bless!



Tomb -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (4/28/2008 3:24:41 AM)

Hi,it is interesting to me the the N.T. uses the words "whosoever will". This is a good study for those who thinks God chooses individuals to be saved. God chose before the foundation of the world a certain (kind) of people,a certain (group) (Eph.3:3-11). He did not choose certain individuals to be saved and certain individuals to be lost. He will save the church (Eph.5:23). Many claim the church is not necessary for salvation. I would ask them to read (Eph.5:23) slowly and carefully.

(Eph.5:23) ... he is the saviour of the body.


(Eph.1:22,23) - ...gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body,


We learn from this verse that the church = the body.


God revealed a plan (Eph.3:3,4). Those who received the word and obeyed that plan were added to the church (Acts 2:36-47) (John 9:31) (Acts 10:34,35) (Heb.5:8,9). Those who rejected that plan judged themselves unworthy of everlasting life (Acts 13:46).

Here is a good lesson.


http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/WalkerD3.htm


**********************************************************


http://missionprinting.us/mp_newindex.html

Click on publications

I highly recommend the booklet entitled -

"A Reply To A Denominational Preacher"



in love tomb



FREELUTH -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (5/2/2008 2:27:48 PM)

It is clearly Biblical that man must choose to believe the Gospel. He must repent and confess and all that. The question is. Does unregenerate man have the ability to choose these things ? I say no. Man without the Holy Spirit working through God's word can not do these things. God must change his heart of stone into one of flesh. Then he can make the choice.



drmark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (5/2/2008 3:02:37 PM)

quote:

The question is. Does unregenerate man have the ability to choose these things ? I say no. Man without the Holy Spirit working through God's word can not do these things. God must change his heart of stone into one of flesh. Then he can make the choice.
So must God save the sinner before he has the ability to choose? What do you think happens theologically when God changes the sinner's "heart of stone into one of flesh"? Can it truly be a "choice" if God makes the sinner choose?



FREELUTH -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (5/2/2008 6:29:55 PM)

Hi Doc: God (Jesus) has paid the price so all sinners can be saved. Not sure what you mean by "thoelogicaly what happens". I believe when the heart is changed the sinner is justified. It is all the same process. The unsaved hears the law and the gospel and the Holy Spirit works faith in his heart and he believes, trusts and repents. He could reject it, some do. Others trust Jesus, repent, believe unto salvation.

I never said God makes the sinner choose. He gives them the will to want to and the ability to choose.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (5/3/2008 1:15:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FREELUTH

Hi Doc: God (Jesus) has paid the price so all sinners can be saved. Not sure what you mean by "thoelogicaly what happens". I believe when the heart is changed the sinner is justified. It is all the same process. The unsaved hears the law and the gospel and the Holy Spirit works faith in his heart and he believes, trusts and repents. He could reject it, some do. Others trust Jesus, repent, believe unto salvation.

I never said God makes the sinner choose. He gives them the will to want to and the ability to choose.


The above begs the $.64 cent question... What makes one man choose God and another not... What did the one thief on the cross have that the other didn't? How does this view not place man in the driver regarding salvation?

Further, isn't John the Baptist's situation unfair? I want the HS from the womb... What about infants and babies who most here would swear on a stack of bibles are automatically saved... How isn't that nothing less than pure predestined salvation? Why do some have to chose and others don't?


On another note.. The things of the Spirit are foolishness to those in the flesh and it says they cannot understand them... The above seems to point to a state of being that has man between being of the flesh and the in the Spirit... Is there any scripture for such a state of being? Or is that covered by the filthy idea that one isn't really sealed by the Holy Spirit but their own personal desire to stay the course and keep choosing God?

John
John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.



FREELUTH -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (5/3/2008 11:16:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

quote:

ORIGINAL: FREELUTH

Hi Doc: God (Jesus) has paid the price so all sinners can be saved. Not sure what you mean by "thoelogicaly what happens". I believe when the heart is changed the sinner is justified. It is all the same process. The unsaved hears the law and the gospel and the Holy Spirit works faith in his heart and he believes, trusts and repents. He could reject it, some do. Others trust Jesus, repent, believe unto salvation.

I never said God makes the sinner choose. He gives them the will to want to and the ability to choose.


The above begs the $.64 cent question... What makes one man choose God and another not... What did the one thief on the cross have that the other didn't? How does this view not place man in the driver regarding salvation?

Further, isn't John the Baptist's situation unfair? I want the HS from the womb... What about infants and babies who most here would swear on a stack of bibles are automatically saved... How isn't that nothing less than pure predestined salvation? Why do some have to chose and others don't?


On another note.. The things of the Spirit are foolishness to those in the flesh and it says they cannot understand them... The above seems to point to a state of being that has man between being of the flesh and the in the Spirit... Is there any scripture for such a state of being? Or is that covered by the filthy idea that one isn't really sealed by the Holy Spirit but their own personal desire to stay the course and keep choosing God?

John
John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.


Hi John here is my .02 answer to a .64 question. It is a gift from God. God gave him the gift to believe. I do not see man in the drivers seat at all. God changes the heart and then it is only natural to trust, believe and repent. The one who does not believe is still doing what comes natural, rejecting or not believing. I do not think scripture teaches a "state of being". Either a person has the gift of faith or he doesn't.

Sorry. I wish I was better with words so I could explain my position better.



drmark -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (5/3/2008 11:43:24 AM)

quote:

I believe when the heart is changed the sinner is justified. It is all the same process. The unsaved hears the law and the gospel and the Holy Spirit works faith in his heart and he believes, trusts and repents. He could reject it, some do. Others trust Jesus, repent, believe unto salvation.

I never said God makes the sinner choose. He gives them the will to want to and the ability to choose.
I'm missing something in the translation, FL. You say God must first change the sinner's heart so he can make the right choice to be saved. But you call this justification and claim "it is all the same process". So God apparently makes the sinner choose salvation when He changes his heart during justification. Is that what you're describing?

quote:

Hi John here is my .02 answer to a .64 question. It is a gift from God. God gave him the gift to believe. I do not see man in the drivers seat at all. God changes the heart and then it is only natural to trust, believe and repent. The one who does not believe is still doing what comes natural, rejecting or not believing. I do not think scripture teaches a "state of being". Either a person has the gift of faith or he doesn't.
FL, this is a wonderful description of prevenient grace in the Wesleyan tradition! Are you sure you're not a FREEMETH? [:)]



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (5/3/2008 1:56:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FREELUTH

Hi John here is my .02 answer to a .64 question. It is a gift from God. God gave him the gift to believe. I do not see man in the drivers seat at all.


God changes the heart


Ok...

Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


quote:


and then it is only natural to trust, believe and repent. The one who does not believe is still doing what comes natural, rejecting or not believing.


So God doesn't change the hearts of those wo don't believe?


quote:


I do not think scripture teaches a "state of being". Either a person has the gift of faith or he doesn't.


To be truer to your words wouldn't it be the man who makes a choice to use the gift or not... You have man doing and not doing and the outcome is determined by the actions one way or another.... How is man not in the driver seat?

John



FREELUTH -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (5/5/2008 9:41:29 AM)

OK let me start all over. DOC I have some nieghbors who would love freemeth. Then they would not have to cook it down the river from me.[;)]

The issue is. Salvation has to be a choice. Yes the beliver makes a choice, but only after the Holy Spirit has changed the will. Before the change the will is in bondage to sin, the world , and the devil. After the change the believer is doing what in natural. Trusting Christ , repenting, praying. Or using the free gift of faith he has been given.

I was not trying imply that some have there heart changed and then reject !!!!!
Sorry if I gave that impression.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (5/5/2008 10:13:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FREELUTH

OK let me start all over. DOC I have some nieghbors who would love freemeth. Then they would not have to cook it down the river from me.[;)]

The issue is. Salvation has to be a choice. Yes the beliver makes a choice, but only after the Holy Spirit has changed the will. Before the change the will is in bondage to sin, the world , and the devil. After the change the believer is doing what in natural. Trusting Christ , repenting, praying. Or using the free gift of faith he has been given.

I was not trying imply that some have there heart changed and then reject !!!!!
Sorry if I gave that impression.


Are you saying that the Holy Spirit changes the will of everybody and that is where the choice is made to choose God or not?

John



FreeGrace -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (5/5/2008 12:30:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FREELUTH

OK let me start all over. DOC I have some nieghbors who would love freemeth. Then they would not have to cook it down the river from me.[;)]

The issue is. Salvation has to be a choice. Yes the beliver makes a choice, but only after the Holy Spirit has changed the will.

Is this really a "choice", if only after the HS has changed the will. iow, after the HS changes the will, is there really a free choice not to believe, or, as the reformists insist, when the will is changed, they VILL believe.

quote:

Before the change the will is in bondage to sin, the world , and the devil. After the change the believer is doing what in natural. Trusting Christ , repenting, praying. Or using the free gift of faith he has been given.

Hold on. You speak of one believing only after the will is changed, and not you suggest that after the will is changed, one IS a believer. So then, the change creates a believer?

quote:

I was not trying imply that some have there heart changed and then reject !!!!!
Sorry if I gave that impression.

So, there really isn't a choice, then, is there. Why did you say there was?



FREELUTH -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (5/5/2008 2:14:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

quote:

ORIGINAL: FREELUTH

OK let me start all over. DOC I have some nieghbors who would love freemeth. Then they would not have to cook it down the river from me.[;)]

The issue is. Salvation has to be a choice. Yes the beliver makes a choice, but only after the Holy Spirit has changed the will. Before the change the will is in bondage to sin, the world , and the devil. After the change the believer is doing what in natural. Trusting Christ , repenting, praying. Or using the free gift of faith he has been given.

I was not trying imply that some have there heart changed and then reject !!!!!
Sorry if I gave that impression.


Are you saying that the Holy Spirit changes the will of everybody and that is where the choice is made to choose God or not?

John

No the HS does not change the will of everyone.



FREELUTH -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (5/5/2008 2:56:37 PM)

Ok fellas insted of my feeeebel atempts at this try this article.
Maybe it is the cold Meds. I have been on [&:]

http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutherantheology.whysome.html

Here is a part of it.

Of course, if I want to enjoy my election contained in the doctrine of the special decree, I must step in through the door of God’s gracious will towards all mankind. We do not want to set aside God’s general decree. The expression, that the general decree is the basis of the special, is acceptable when rightly understood, but I do not accept that expression when used to signify that the special and the general decree are one and the same. Scripture speaks, besides the general will of God, of the predestination of individuals in nineteen passages. But God does the same work on the lost that He does on the elect; He makes no difference. Between the general and the special will there is no chasm. (Adolph Hoenecke, comments made at the Milwaukee Free Conference in 1903; quoted in J. L. Neve, A History of Lutheranism in America, edited by John M. Drickamer and C. George Fry [Fort Wayne, Indiana: Concordia Theological Seminary Press, 1979], p. 152)



cognitivemagic -> RE: Salvation Has To Be A Choice (5/5/2008 5:09:13 PM)

quote:

Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


So, according to a Calvinist/Reformed reading of this verse (i.e. that God changes the person by rewiring the "will"), a Christian obeys God's will to the uttermost. Right?

If we are "dead to sin", then why the persistence of personal, sinful actions by Reformed Christians? And not merely the "outward" actions of sin, but also the inward corruption that is the root of sin.

How "reformed" does Calvinism really make someone?

Does the God of the Calvinists really abhor sin? Why does he make his elect to sin at all?

I think that the Euthyphro dilemma most keenly affects the Calvinist on this point.

The non-Calvinist easily circumvents this dilemma altogether because God works with, and not in spite of, the will of man. God came to redeem the will of man, not to replace it.

Consider the Ephesians 2:8,9 verse:

"For by grace you have been saved" (God's work)

"Through faith" (man's work/anti-monergism)

"And this not of yourselves" (anti-Pelagian)

This "synergy" is consistent with the rest of St. Paul's soteriology, especially in verses in Romans and Galatians (respectively) where he says that God:

"Will render to each man according to what he has done"

and

"Do not be deceived. God cannot be mocked. What you sow, that you shall also reap. He who sows to please sinful flesh, from that flesh will reap corruption."

God indeed bestows grace but not without some expectation of personal responsibility. Consider the parable of the talents. Each person was given his due and expected to make some profit. When the employer returned to receive his profit, he rewarded them all accordingly. One made tenfold and in turn received an additional tenfold. And likewise with the one who made 5. But the one who buried his talent made excuse, but was nevertheless held to account. And it didn't bode well for him.

But what sense would this Gospel story make if God was entirely behind the wheel of all men's decisions?



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