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RE: Beth Moore - 3/1/2008 8:59:21 PM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 2706
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
Put yourself in Beth's place. Once youve become popular you become the target for those who are so bored with their walk in the Lord that posting pot shots at popular speakers is as good as it gets.
If she has actually taught something improper, or has acted in a wicked or godless manner you could warn others of such behavior. But when the overall content of the complaints focus on emotion and gesture it could be nothing more than childishness. What is sin? Senseless fault finding or emotionally charged preaching? Is calm and serene godliness? I have seen the cults and gurus on TV act in such a way. Should I conclude that their behavior is godly because it fits a predisposition in your own mind?
If Beth forgives her fault finders for such petty complaints would your praise her virtue or find fault with her for being lax on sin?
John
Thank you, John!
That really needed to be said. I was so convicted yesterday for even reading the "pot-shots". It is so wrong and so grievous to the Lord.
_____________________________
~For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ~
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RE: Beth Moore - 3/1/2008 11:53:05 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3429
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Hey Cherished, I do admire her Face seeking the Lords continually. I wish I was more like her.
quote:
ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod
quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
Put yourself in Beth's place. Once youve become popular you become the target for those who are so bored with their walk in the Lord that posting pot shots at popular speakers is as good as it gets.
If she has actually taught something improper, or has acted in a wicked or godless manner you could warn others of such behavior. But when the overall content of the complaints focus on emotion and gesture it could be nothing more than childishness. What is sin? Senseless fault finding or emotionally charged preaching? Is calm and serene godliness? I have seen the cults and gurus on TV act in such a way. Should I conclude that their behavior is godly because it fits a predisposition in your own mind?
If Beth forgives her fault finders for such petty complaints would your praise her virtue or find fault with her for being lax on sin?
John
Thank you, John!
That really needed to be said. I was so convicted yesterday for even reading the "pot-shots". It is so wrong and so grievous to the Lord.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Beth Moore - 3/3/2008 8:02:25 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 477
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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My wife and I did a few of her studies together, but we stopped using her materials altogether. Even though we enjoyed the way she communicated, we could not tolerate the assumptions and the reaching. In one study she said that God throws our forgiven sins into the crystal sea which is so deep that the sins are forgotten forever (going on memory here, so I might be mistaken about what exactly gets thrown into the sea and why. However, one thing I'm sure of, no where does the Bible say anything about God tossing anything into the crystal sea). This type of exposition made a regular appearance in subsequent studies, so we just quit using them.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Beth Moore - 3/3/2008 10:55:56 PM
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manwe
Posts: 236
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I like Precept Ministries materials better, but that is me.
_____________________________
Zephaniah 3:17 reads, "The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing."
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RE: Beth Moore - 3/6/2008 10:17:41 AM
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SlinginDirt
Posts: 6
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quote:
ORIGINAL: p31woman
quote:
I'm almost wondering if the woman is Bipolar and hypomania is triggered when she's doing public speaking.
Since when is getting animated and passionate a sign of mental illness?  I think if a person is going to be that critical of someone's style, it might be best not to watch them.
Thank you, finally someone said something that made some sense. I hope Beth Moore doesn't read this forum, or better yet I am glad that I don't have to stand before the public to be judged so harshly. I understand everyone is intitled to their opinion, but I don't think it has to be shared in such a public manner. It seems a lot like gossip to me. I also feel if she or any others are willing to stand up or out to teach others about God then they deserve all the encouragement we as Christ followers can give them, especiallynconsidering the fact that there is a huge movement to remove God all together. After all she is just human.
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Heather Rhoades
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RE: Beth Moore - 3/6/2008 11:20:39 AM
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stateofgrace
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Since when is stating that someone's behavior might be indicative of Bipolar Disorder "judging them harshly"? I have heard on videos Beth Moore stating that she comes from an abusive past and that she has been to a lot of counseling. She's had past trauma and it is certainly possible that mental health problems run in the family.
Her body language and level of emotions when speaking MAY indicate something - just as it's possible that Jim Carey and Robin Williams MIGHT be Bipolar. When you are well acquainted with people who have been manic or hypomanic, over time you do begin to notice potential signs in other people.
There are several people w/Bipolar Disorder in my family. There is certainly a need for folks in the Christian subculture to be educated about people with this and other conditions and not demonize them.
< Message edited by stateofgrace -- 3/6/2008 11:28:19 AM >
_____________________________
less junk, more Jesus
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RE: Beth Moore - 3/6/2008 11:45:03 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4157
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I've only examined a couple of her books, after a friend asked me to. I found her emotionalism translated into a different kind of Bible study--I say "different" to be kind. I plan on going to the book store this weekend and I'll try to find examples of what I had noticed.
I think over-emotionalism has an impact on the quality of the study and the thinking involved.
I don't think we do anyone any favors by bringing such high emotionalism to our Christian walk. Eventually the emotions go away and change.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
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RE: Beth Moore - 3/6/2008 12:49:45 PM
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Jeffo
Posts: 147
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
Since when is stating that someone's behavior might be indicative of Bipolar Disorder "judging them harshly"? I have heard on videos Beth Moore stating that she comes from an abusive past and that she has been to a lot of counseling. She's had past trauma and it is certainly possible that mental health problems run in the family.
Her body language and level of emotions when speaking MAY indicate something - just as it's possible that Jim Carey and Robin Williams MIGHT be Bipolar. When you are well acquainted with people who have been manic or hypomanic, over time you do begin to notice potential signs in other people.
There are several people w/Bipolar Disorder in my family. There is certainly a need for folks in the Christian subculture to be educated about people with this and other conditions and not demonize them.
But how would Robin Williams, Jim Carey and Beth Moore manage to get hypomanic or manic during the time they are interviewed or perform and always manage to be in that state when seen publicly?
That whole thing is just speculation and if she is Bipolar it really has no bearing on her ability to minister.
_____________________________
http://www.scripturezealot.com
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RE: Beth Moore - 3/6/2008 1:29:59 PM
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tafkam
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I've never been a Beth Moore fan due to the almost cult-like following she has. Sometimes it's almost like people worship the messenger more than the One the message is about....
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"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Beth Moore - 3/6/2008 1:49:54 PM
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SlinginDirt
Posts: 6
Joined: 3/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
Since when is stating that someone's behavior might be indicative of Bipolar Disorder "judging them harshly"? I have heard on videos Beth Moore stating that she comes from an abusive past and that she has been to a lot of counseling. She's had past trauma and it is certainly possible that mental health problems run in the family.
Her body language and level of emotions when speaking MAY indicate something - just as it's possible that Jim Carey and Robin Williams MIGHT be Bipolar. When you are well acquainted with people who have been manic or hypomanic, over time you do begin to notice potential signs in other people.
There are several people w/Bipolar Disorder in my family. There is certainly a need for folks in the Christian subculture to be educated about people with this and other conditions and not demonize them.
Since when is pronouncing someone might have a disorder not be judgemental? It is clear that you have some knowledge of this disease through your family experiences, and for that I am truly sorry. My point is unless you know Beth personally, I don't think it is very fair to make assumptions about something so personal. You wouldn't want someone to make that kind of assumption about you without knowing you personally would you? I am a Christian, and I don't need to be schooled on Bipolar Diease to know that I would never demonize anyone for a disorder I would pray for them.
God Bless you and thank you for your input.
< Message edited by SlinginDirt -- 3/6/2008 4:46:49 PM >
_____________________________
Heather Rhoades
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RE: Beth Moore - 3/8/2008 1:19:49 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 494
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quote:
I have found nothing wrong in her teaching or her materials. However, her exuberant, over-the-top style puts me off, so I don't like watching/listening to her. That's my prerogative, and I'm not taking a "pot shot" at her, nor is it because I'm bored with my walk or that I think she is sinning. You make a lot of assumptions that are unwarranted. The way she presents herself is just not everyone's cup of tea...that's all!
Kat: I feel the same way about some teachers as well. I dont seem to learn from them because of style or presentation.
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Beth Moore - 3/8/2008 1:26:25 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 494
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I like what Mushhead had to say. Paraphrasing, "I read something that sent up red-flags and decided not to use the studies any longer". Thats ok, and thats exactly what I mean. I believe Beth has done a good service toward Jesus Christ. Im not a beth moore listener, my wife likes her but cant do the workbooks very well herself. I just think that she deserves some respect for her works sake as the scripture teach us.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Beth Moore - 3/12/2008 11:15:32 PM
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sherronefaith
Posts: 120
Joined: 4/15/2005
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Beth Moore is a great teacher who laughs at her mistakes and lack of perfection as we all should whom Christ has begun a good work in and has not completed. She is so funny and refreshing and is used by the Holy Spirit to challenge us to be real and honest. The ministry God has given me is filled with humor, the cross, the blood of Jesus.
_____________________________
'The person who attempts nothing, is at the mercy of ignorance.' s faye
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RE: Beth Moore - 3/29/2008 12:08:44 PM
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LaurainAL
Posts: 1416
Joined: 8/13/2005
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I like Beth Moore, but prefer Kay Arthur's studies.
For those of you who dislike her because of her emotionalism, Does it bother you for any pastor/teacher to become emotional or animated? If so, y'all probably wouldn't like our church.
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RE: Beth Moore - 3/29/2008 1:59:24 PM
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pezdispenser
Posts: 70
Joined: 9/6/2007
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I know very little of Beth Moore and nothing about her studies; however, when the OP stated that she uses 20 references per study it made me wary. I have never forgotten my homiletics professor telling us to be limited in our scripture references as EACH one has to be studied in its context: examine the verses preceding and after the ones you are speaking on, who was author writing to, etc...
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RE: Beth Moore - 3/29/2008 3:15:15 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1144
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
Since when is stating that someone's behavior might be indicative of Bipolar Disorder "judging them harshly"? I have heard on videos Beth Moore stating that she comes from an abusive past and that she has been to a lot of counseling. She's had past trauma and it is certainly possible that mental health problems run in the family.
Her body language and level of emotions when speaking MAY indicate something - just as it's possible that Jim Carey and Robin Williams MIGHT be Bipolar. When you are well acquainted with people who have been manic or hypomanic, over time you do begin to notice potential signs in other people.
There are several people w/Bipolar Disorder in my family. There is certainly a need for folks in the Christian subculture to be educated about people with this and other conditions and not demonize them.
her energy and animation would also be consistent with:
energetic personality type...
and public speaking training. ie vary your tone and volume of voice, rate of speech, move on platform, stand still on platform, all of these variations are to to be used as a help to keep your audience's ability to KEEP listening as the human mind so easily wanders off.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Beth Moore - 3/29/2008 3:22:17 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1144
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
My wife and I did a few of her studies together, but we stopped using her materials altogether. Even though we enjoyed the way she communicated, we could not tolerate the assumptions and the reaching. In one study she said that God throws our forgiven sins into the crystal sea which is so deep that the sins are forgotten forever (going on memory here, so I might be mistaken about what exactly gets thrown into the sea and why. However, one thing I'm sure of, no where does the Bible say anything about God tossing anything into the crystal sea). This type of exposition made a regular appearance in subsequent studies, so we just quit using them.
that concept could be from this:
Re 4:6
and before the throne there was something like a sea of glass, like crystal; and in the center and around the throne, four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind.
from Jamieson, Fausset, Brown commentary on Rev 4
Compare Job 37:18, "the sky . . . as a molten looking-glass." Thus, primarily, the pure ether which separates God's throne from John, and from all things before it, may be meant, symbolizing the "purity, calmness, and majesty of God's rule" [ALFORD]. But see the analogue in the temple, the molten sea before the sanctuary in this sea depth and transparency, but not the fluidity and instability of the natural sea (compare Revelation 21:1). It stands solid, calm, and clear, God's judgments are called "a great deep" (Psalms 36:6). In Revelation 15:2 it is a "sea of glass mingled with fire." Thus there is symbolized here the purificatory baptism of water and the Spirit of all who are made "kings and priests unto God." In Revelation 15:2 the baptism with the fire of trial is meant. Through both all the king-priests have to pass in coming to God: His judgments, which overwhelm the ungodly, they stand firmly upon, as on a solid sea of glass; able like Christ to walk on the sea, as though it were solid.
from Micah 7:
7:18
Who is a God like You, who pardons iniquity And passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession ? He does not retain His anger forever, Because He delights in unchanging love .
7:19
He will again have compassion on us; He will tread our iniquities under foot. Yes, You will cast all their sins Into the depths of the sea.
7:20
Jeremiah 31
31:34
"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
< Message edited by mrsdash -- 3/29/2008 3:28:20 PM >
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Beth Moore - 3/30/2008 8:11:47 PM
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elliemaejune
Posts: 115
Joined: 9/16/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manwe
I like Precept Ministries materials better, but that is me.
I, too, prefer Precept Bible studies over anything else I have ever done. I appreciate the fact that we study *the Bible* first and foremost; leaders (I am one) are instructed that if we don't have two hours, we don't do the video (which may or may not be Kay Arthur; there are several men who do the lectures, as well), because it is the Bible study that is the most important.
Twelve weeks on Philippians, 4 weeks on Titus, 5 weeks on Jude, 15 weeks on James...these are truly *in depth.*
I'll stick with Precept Bible studies :-)
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RE: Beth Moore - 3/31/2008 6:45:10 PM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 1933
Joined: 4/12/2005
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I may look into the Precept Ministries materials myself. I really have decided that I don't need Moore's overwrought style at this point in my life. I'm not saying that the study topic and materials are of no benefit- I'm saying that I'm tired of women's bible studies leaning so heavily on emotionalism. And I do think I could benefit from the topic of this study, it's just that I want the Lord's peace not to set myself on choppy waters.
_____________________________
less junk, more Jesus
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RE: Beth Moore - 4/4/2008 6:05:29 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 477
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
My wife and I did a few of her studies together, but we stopped using her materials altogether. Even though we enjoyed the way she communicated, we could not tolerate the assumptions and the reaching. In one study she said that God throws our forgiven sins into the crystal sea which is so deep that the sins are forgotten forever (going on memory here, so I might be mistaken about what exactly gets thrown into the sea and why. However, one thing I'm sure of, no where does the Bible say anything about God tossing anything into the crystal sea). This type of exposition made a regular appearance in subsequent studies, so we just quit using them.
that concept could be from this:
Re 4:6
and before the throne there was something like a sea of glass, like crystal; and in the center and around the throne, four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind.
from Jamieson, Fausset, Brown commentary on Rev 4
Compare Job 37:18, "the sky . . . as a molten looking-glass." Thus, primarily, the pure ether which separates God's throne from John, and from all things before it, may be meant, symbolizing the "purity, calmness, and majesty of God's rule" [ALFORD]. But see the analogue in the temple, the molten sea before the sanctuary in this sea depth and transparency, but not the fluidity and instability of the natural sea (compare Revelation 21:1). It stands solid, calm, and clear, God's judgments are called "a great deep" (Psalms 36:6). In Revelation 15:2 it is a "sea of glass mingled with fire." Thus there is symbolized here the purificatory baptism of water and the Spirit of all who are made "kings and priests unto God." In Revelation 15:2 the baptism with the fire of trial is meant. Through both all the king-priests have to pass in coming to God: His judgments, which overwhelm the ungodly, they stand firmly upon, as on a solid sea of glass; able like Christ to walk on the sea, as though it were solid.
from Micah 7:
7:18
Who is a God like You, who pardons iniquity And passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession ? He does not retain His anger forever, Because He delights in unchanging love .
7:19
He will again have compassion on us; He will tread our iniquities under foot. Yes, You will cast all their sins Into the depths of the sea.
7:20
Jeremiah 31
31:34
"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
mrsdash,
I don't remember what she cited for her reasoning. It seems - from my best effort at remembering - that in a discussion about the forgiveness of sin, she just said it, without making any effort at proof texting. My problem isn't just that she stretched biblical teaching; many teachers do that at some point. My problem is that even though she is a gifted teacher, she continued the practice in subsequent studies. Too many Christians are too easily led astray by bad teaching, which makes it even more critical that good teachers avoid the kind of hermenuetical practices that Moore has drifted into. Instead, gifted teachers like Moore need to teach - in word and practice - good hermenuetics so that more people will be equipped to identify false teachings, and fewer people will be swayed by the waves of bad doctrine that are much too prevelant and accessible in today's world.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Beth Moore - 4/4/2008 6:43:41 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1144
Status: offline
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so she may be handling the Word correctly but she's not proving it, and that bothers you?
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Beth Moore - 4/5/2008 12:11:38 AM
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mushhead
Posts: 477
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
so she may be handling the Word correctly but she's not proving it, and that bothers you?
No. My point is that she is NOT handling the word correclty. No matter what God says about forgiving and forgetting sin; no matter what God says about the depth of His wisdom; no matter which metaphor that includes water, seas, or any other body of water that God uses to describe Himself, humanity, sin, forgiveness, redemption, judgment, or anything else...one thing is absolutely certain - God is not talking about the "Crystal Sea."
There is nothing anywhere in all the Scripture to support Moore's contention that God cast our sins into the Crystal Sea. Therefore, she made up that scenerio; probably to help her make the truth - that when God forgives our sins they are gone forever - seem more real. The problem is that by making this up, she has fallen into the trap of going beyond the word of God, which many false teachers do. False teachers use this method of adding their own scenerios to Biblical truth in order to convince people of all kinds of things that are not true, i.e. God will give them a hundred times whatever amount of money they sow as a seed of faith.
Moore has a great opportunityt to teach many, many people good biblical hermenuetics. Instead, she is teaching them that bad hermenuetics is a valid form of Biblical interpretation. this might not cause harm for most of her students, but all it takes is one ruined life...
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Beth Moore - 4/5/2008 1:16:24 AM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1144
Status: offline
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so is it the "crystal" included in that that bugs you, cuz sins being burried in the sea is not out of scriptural realm.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Beth Moore - 4/5/2008 3:59:53 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 477
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
so is it the "crystal" included in that that bugs you, cuz sins being burried in the sea is not out of scriptural realm.
No, what bugs me is not the inclusion of the word "crystal." My problem is that she took a metaphor about the finality of the forgiveness of our sins (casting sin into the depth of the sea) and turned it into something literal. The Crystal Sea is a literal sea before the throne of God. Therefore, "crystal" is not just a word; it is not just an adjective; it is part of a title that describes something real. So while you are absolutely correct that throwing our sins in the sea is in the realm of Scripture (I believe you quoted the verse in a previous post), it is not in the realm of Scripture to say that those sins were cast into the sea that lays before the throne of God - the Crystal Sea.
My problem, therefore, is that she identifies a metaphorical sea as the literal Crystal Sea. It is not. Again, the reference to sea in the OT is a metaphor; plus, even if the sea were a literal sea somewhere, there is nothing in Scripture that says it is the Crystal Sea. So, Moore has taught falsely. She has conjured up a scenerio in her imagination and presented it as actual Biblical revelation. She has put words in God's mouth. She has added to the word of God. She has, at best, intentionally misrepresented God's word; and at worst, she intentionally lied and mislead people.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 4/5/2008 5:20:04 PM >
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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