RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Should Men Have Long Hair?


Yes it is wrong.
  8% (6)
No it is not wrong.
  31% (23)
It doesn't make a difference.
  59% (43)


Total Votes : 72
(last vote on : 11/5/2008 6:42:21 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )


Message

ae10u -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/7/2008 11:28:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sjd2008


First, you really didn't answer Kath's question.

Second, you are stuck on one verse, keep on quoting it without the context of the rest of the chapter. This is called "proof texting" that is taking verses and snippets of the Bible out of their context. Here's the problem with proof texting: The Bible as written in the original languages did not have chapter and verse. Therefore, when read by those that were receiving those letters from Paul, it would have been read as a solid paragraph.

If you believe that God is concerned with a man's hair length that's fine. However, if you are trying to convince the rest of us of this concern, please try to use more than one verse. Proof texting is a very poor way to study the Bible.


I did answer Kath's question. She can join the dots.

And I just read Paul again in context, and it still says the same.

So you tell me what I am supposed to make of Paul's statement regarding hair length. And please include a few verbs - things it is telling us to DO today.



AoibhinnGrainne -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/8/2008 1:31:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ae10u

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kath

ae10u,
You say Christianity is a culture. There are Christians in every part of the world. They all do not sport the 50s short hair look, the Greecian/Roman/so called Biblical hair style. It would not be in their culture to do so. Would you think they are sinning?


There are many definitions of sin in the Bible, for instance transgression of the law. But the basic definition of sin is to go against the will of God. And I believe the will of God for hair length is clearly expressed by Paul as ...
1 Corinthians 11:14 4 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

Thus I look at it as if God were asking that question.
I look at it as if God is saying it is a shame.
That tells me it opposes the will of God.

We can oppose the will of God knowingly and willfully.
Or we can oppose the will of God through ignorance.
The latter is the lesser sin.

I believe God gave us a culture - together with hair length, dress codes (modest), how soon we should release anger (sunset), how we should treat our neighbor, or our enemies ass when it falls down under its load - and there is no aspect of our lives which are not regulated.

We can deny our Christian culture.
Matthew 10:33-34 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

I have been in Genoa when they had a religious festival of sorts, during which they dragged their icons around the streets and back to their church, finishing with the biggest fireworks display I have ever seen.

Just because folks call something a Christian culture - does not make it a Biblical culture.

I say that wherever Christian men are not wearing short hair, they are at variance with Paul, and with God, and their Christian culture. In the Dark Ages they did not have Bibles - and had to rely on the priest. Today we read Paul, and have no excuse.


1. Scripture also states the "rules", if you will, for one taking a Nazirite vow...and not cutting the hair was one of them. Not cutting one's hair was also a sign of mourning. Scritpure also describes not cutting the corners of one's beard, too, but those prohibitions are all in the OT, so I guess to most folk here (judging, no, wait, discerning from what I've read) that makes it moot. Except the vow thing...Paul admonishes one to keep one's vows.

But I digress...

You wanna tell Jesus to cut His hair???

B. Denying Christ is NOT denying "Christian culture". Have you lived elsewhere besides the States? Christian culture is quite diverse and those things we take for granted here would hardly be considered Christian or acceptable in many other places (as stated above).

I've been to different religious festivals in Italy. At least the local government allows for such public displays of religious fervour. Unlike here where we argue about nativity scenes.

Huh.

iii. Have you met any Dark Ages guys and discussed hair length with them? Do you know what their hair length was? Or their music? Art? Personal hygiene (or lack thereof)? Heck! Is it Biblical, really, to be here on the Internet wasting time that could be spent on clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, praying, meditating, visiting the prisoners...I mean, I am assuming you are here subsequent to your doing these other Biblically commanded things...right???

And BTW, let's define the Dark Ages. And, yes, they did have Bibles as in hand-written and illuminated manuscripts. Not many. The Book of Kells comes to mind. Stunning. Though they weren't widely available. Pity, that. But that's what the so-called "icons" you rather disrespectfully referred to were for...as well as stained glass windows in churches and cathedrals. Although even if everyone had a Bible, most folk were still illiterate...which was the real problem (unlike the 1st C Church where many more Believers were able to read the scrolls or, at least (!) had the whole of the Torah memorised). Similar to today. Instead of illiterates we have anti-intellectuals...or ignoramuses.

But, again, I digress...

AoibhinnGrainne.

PS: Don't forget to raise holy hands whilst praying and to greet one another with a holy kiss (1Timothy 2:8; 2Corinthians 13:12).



ae10u -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/8/2008 4:48:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne


1. Scripture also states the "rules", if you will, for one taking a Nazirite vow...and not cutting the hair was one of them. Not cutting one's hair was also a sign of mourning. Scritpure also describes not cutting the corners of one's beard, too, but those prohibitions are all in the OT, so I guess to most folk here (judging, no, wait, discerning from what I've read) that makes it moot. Except the vow thing...Paul admonishes one to keep one's vows.


Vows are now forbidden in Christian culture, so the Nazarite growing their hair thing, need not have even been addressed in this thread.

Matthew 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

And by "Christian culture" I refer to "the faith once delivered" as defined by the New Testament. (Jude 1:3)

quote:


But I digress...

You wanna tell Jesus to cut His hair???


ALL scripture is given by inspiration - of whom - Christ. Thus Christ told Paul to tell us to cut our hair. Was He being a hypocrite? No. Christ had short hair.

quote:


B. Denying Christ is NOT denying "Christian culture". Have you lived elsewhere besides the States? Christian culture is quite diverse and those things we take for granted here would hardly be considered Christian or acceptable in many other places (as stated above).

I've been to different religious festivals in Italy. At least the local government allows for such public displays of religious fervour. Unlike here where we argue about nativity scenes.

Huh.


The further Christianity strays from the faith once delivered, the less acceptable it becomes. Just because we accept something (say like long hair) does not mean God has to accept it.

Jude 1:3 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

And that faith once delivered to the saints commanded short hair.

quote:


iii. Have you met any Dark Ages guys and discussed hair length with them? Do you know what their hair length was? Or their music? Art? Personal hygiene (or lack thereof)? Heck!


Likewise, how any age kept Christianity, does not define what is right or wrong. Scripture does. Hence, there is only one worthwhile Christian culture to compare ourselves against - the faith once delivered.

quote:


Is it Biblical, really, to be here on the Internet wasting time that could be spent on clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, praying, meditating, visiting the prisoners...I mean, I am assuming you are here subsequent to your doing these other Biblically commanded things...right???


Yes, doing all these things as and when we are able, is part of the faith once delivered. Glad you brought that up.

quote:


PS: Don't forget to raise holy hands whilst praying and to greet one another with a holy kiss (1Timothy 2:8; 2Corinthians 13:12).


I don't have a problem with these either - nor with taking up my cross, or going the extra mile.



krazyxsinner -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/8/2008 8:56:35 AM)

quote:

So you tell me what I am supposed to make of Paul's statement regarding hair length. And please include a few verbs - things it is telling us to DO today.



One last time because my head is bloody from your brick wall. "what I am supposed to make of Paul's statement regarding hair length", all we ask is you show us Paul's definition. Where on a ruler is the standard? Paul must have established a guideline. Is it a buzz cut, is 1/2 inch over the ears, is it just touching the ears? Where is the line that would be crossed from being correct to just too long?



sjd2008 -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/8/2008 9:49:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: krazyxsinner

quote:

So you tell me what I am supposed to make of Paul's statement regarding hair length. And please include a few verbs - things it is telling us to DO today.



One last time because my head is bloody from you brick wall. "what I am supposed to make of Paul's statement regarding hair length", all we ask is you show us Paul's definition. Where on a ruler is the standard? Paul must have established a guideline. Is it a buzz cut, is 1/2 inch over the ears, is it just touching the ears? Where is the line that would be crossed from being correct to just too long?


Truth is that aeIOu cannot adequately answer this question. The answer is/was subjective. It's like the Supreme Court decision on pornography, they know it when they see it.

Here's the problem, when God wants something done to partticular specifications He has no problem communicating those specs. My examples are Noah's Ark and the Tent of Meeting. Both times He could be very specific about size, shape and colors.

Now we still have Paul's comments on hair. First, it is one verse that makes specific reference to hair in the New Testament. Second, we know that much of the two letters to the Corinthians were responses to either their questions or Paul's admonitions about their conduct.

Conclusion: Paul was not writing a commandment from God. If anything he was trying to communicate a standard of behavior to an unruly church. Short and long are relative terms meaning that they are open to interpretation. I'm confident that if God had a particular hair length in mind that He would have had Paul write that requirement down. So, since the Bible is silent on the specifications we must assume that they are a matter of conscience and open to an amount of personal interpretation. I think that we really miss what the Bible is trying to say to us when we get to this level of discussion. The Pharisees argued endlessly about minor points in the Law while missing the flavor and hidden meaning of the Law. In other words they were stuck on the minor points while ignoring the major points of the Law.

Each much decide for themselves what hairstyle/length is honoring to God. Each must decide for themselves how they should live out their life before God.



ae10u -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/8/2008 9:54:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: krazyxsinner

quote:

So you tell me what I am supposed to make of Paul's statement regarding hair length. And please include a few verbs - things it is telling us to DO today.



One last time because my head is bloody from you brick wall. "what I am supposed to make of Paul's statement regarding hair length", all we ask is you show us Paul's definition. Where on a ruler is the standard? Paul must have established a guideline. Is it a buzz cut, is 1/2 inch over the ears, is it just touching the ears? Where is the line that would be crossed from being correct to just too long?


Crazyxsinner

What I was hoping to get out of y'all, was what you get from Paul.

I know what I get out of 1 Cor 11:14. You may not like what I get out of it.

My question was - what do you think it is telling you to do today? From you answer, it sounded like - scratch your head [:)]



utilityfielder -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/8/2008 10:11:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sjd2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: krazyxsinner

quote:

So you tell me what I am supposed to make of Paul's statement regarding hair length. And please include a few verbs - things it is telling us to DO today.



One last time because my head is bloody from you brick wall. "what I am supposed to make of Paul's statement regarding hair length", all we ask is you show us Paul's definition. Where on a ruler is the standard? Paul must have established a guideline. Is it a buzz cut, is 1/2 inch over the ears, is it just touching the ears? Where is the line that would be crossed from being correct to just too long?


Truth is that aeIOu cannot adequately answer this question. The answer is/was subjective. It's like the Supreme Court decision on pornography, they know it when they see it.

Here's the problem, when God wants something done to partticular specifications He has no problem communicating those specs. My examples are Noah's Ark and the Tent of Meeting. Both times He could be very specific about size, shape and colors.

Now we still have Paul's comments on hair. First, it is one verse that makes specific reference to hair in the New Testament. Second, we know that much of the two letters to the Corinthians were responses to either their questions or Paul's admonitions about their conduct.

Conclusion: Paul was not writing a commandment from God. If anything he was trying to communicate a standard of behavior to an unruly church. Short and long are relative terms meaning that they are open to interpretation. I'm confident that if God had a particular hair length in mind that He would have had Paul write that requirement down. So, since the Bible is silent on the specifications we must assume that they are a matter of conscience and open to an amount of personal interpretation. I think that we really miss what the Bible is trying to say to us when we get to this level of discussion. The Pharisees argued endlessly about minor points in the Law while missing the flavor and hidden meaning of the Law. In other words they were stuck on the minor points while ignoring the major points of the Law.

Each much decide for themselves what hairstyle/length is honoring to God. Each must decide for themselves how they should live out their life before God.



Excellent post. We create problems when we impose our specifics on Biblical generalities.



GroupW -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/8/2008 10:13:39 AM)

In fairness to Vowel Man, 2-3" seems to be his general standard. He arrives at that length primarily using 19-20th century standards and appears to assume that this standard has been more or less constant through time and across cultures. No specific biblical reference is given as justification for the specific length, since no direct reference exists. He seems to base his assumption of a relatively constant understanding of "long" hair through the ages on Paul's appeal to "nature", assuming that people have a more or less inborn sense of appropriate male hair length.

I don't think the exact standard of "what is long" is the issue.

Personally, I think the real issue is a basic philosophical difference on what language is and how we use it. Personally, I think language is intimately entangled in its culture. Let's say I write something to a church today, and people 1,000 years from today read it. In my way of thinking (let's call it grammatico-historical interpretation) someone who wants to know what I meant in my letter first has to understand what issues I was dealing with in the church in my day and what cultural assumptions would have been common between me and my audience. From that understanding, one can ascertain the principles that I was trying to get across and can make some accurate assessments on how that principle can be realized today. The wise person also looks to other things I may have written to other churches for verification that he's correctly assessed my intention.

Legalists and certain denominations tend to take a much more simplistic approach and assume that language is a constant (or at least, language as reflected in the bible.) If language is a constant, then I can interpret the bible with my 20th century assumptions intact with no need to do any further work. I can take the bible at its literal face value and do no further inquiry.

In my opinion, that's a lazy way to study the bible. Lazy might be a bit strong a word. For some, that's the best they have the time or energy to do. I get that. For others, we have the time and resources to do more, and thus we should. Having the time and resources, we should also do our best to educate those around us who are unable to do the legwork. (This would also be why we have seminaries and professional clergy. It isn't easy!)

I usually am in the minority on most issues on this thread, but on this one I'm going with the majority vote, which at last count stood at 48 to 3 in favor of either "no" or "doesn't matter." (Yes, I know God's kindom is not a democracy, and popular wisdom is an oxymoron. That's still my position and I'm sticking to it.)

Given that we have a basic philosophical difference on how language is used, I really am not seeing that this thread has the slightest hope of a positive resolution.



phosadaud -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/8/2008 10:31:32 AM)

What's interesting about Paul's statement is that he doesn't command men to cut their hair. He simply says long hair is a shame. Why is it a shame? We see throughout the Bible where men have long hair and it is to God's glory so apparently it's not a "natural", God-given shame because they are sinning by having long hair. This is what leads to the conclusion that the shame has something to do with a particular time and a particular culture and not a hard rule for everyone, in every culture, at every time.

The fact is, this verse comes from a personal letter written to a specific church at a specific time in a specific culture. Does that negate what Paul says? Absolutely not! What it does is require us to read deeper to determine what is a concern for a specific church in a specific time in a specific culture vs. what is a Biblical command for all time (ie - don't murder, don't steal, etc). It's like the issue of eating meat sacrificed to idols. Eating it was not a sin. Eating it in the company of folks whose faith was weak and would be harmed by this act, was. The same can be said of long hair. Long hair is not the sin (as we see by examples in the OT and new). The sin is in doing something that would give others the wrong conclusion and hurt their faith.



sjd2008 -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/8/2008 10:42:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ae10u


What I was hoping to get out of y'all, was what you get from Paul.

I know what I get out of 1 Cor 11:14. You may not like what I get out of it.

My question was - what do you think it is telling you to do today? From you answer, it sounded like - scratch your head [:)]



Then you should have plainly asked the question that you wanted answered.

When I read ALL of the Corinthian books I am reminded how unruly the church was in that city. Think about it, Paul had to remind them about hair length? That's pretty pitiful in light of some of his other admonitions (like not accepting someone into fellowship who was sleeping with his own mother)[sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]. To me this speaks to a deteriorating corporate structure and worship. This should act as a warning to all church members that there are certain behavior standards and that they should be kept.

As I said the fact that Paul had to tell them (in essence) how to dress is an indication of corporate faiure not necessarily individual failure.



WhiteRoseBlessings -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/8/2008 10:45:32 AM)

Excellence posts, GroupW and Kristin!

THIS:
quote:

What's interesting about Paul's statement is that he doesn't command men to cut their hair. He simply says long hair is a shame. Why is it a shame? We see throughout the Bible where men have long hair and it is to God's glory so apparently it's not a "natural", God-given shame because they are sinning by having long hair. This is what leads to the conclusion that the shame has something to do with a particular time and a particular culture and not a hard rule for everyone, in every culture, at every time.
. . . was right on the money!


I have a pondering question, though, about the "stumbling block" theory. However, it would take this thread off-topic.
I think I'll start a new thread.



GroupW -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/8/2008 10:46:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sjd2008
When I read ALL of the Corinthian books I am reminded how unruly the church was in that city. Think about it, Paul had to remind them about hair length? That's pretty pitiful in light of some of his other admonitions (like not accepting someone into fellowship who was sleeping with his own mother)[sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]. To me this speaks to a deteriorating corporate structure and worship. This should act as a warning to all church members that there are certain behavior standards and that they should be kept.

As I said the fact that Paul had to tell them (in essence) how to dress is an indication of corporate faiure not necessarily individual failure.


You get the context prize.



krazyxsinner -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/8/2008 11:04:41 AM)

quote:

When I read ALL of the Corinthian books I am reminded how unruly the church was in that city. Think about it, Paul had to remind them about hair length? That's pretty pitiful in light of some of his other admonitions (like not accepting someone into fellowship who was sleeping with his own mother)


He would not have done that if he had short hair.



WhiteRoseBlessings -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/8/2008 11:18:17 AM)

OFF-TOPIC REQUEST.


I've created a thread on "stumbling blocks". Please CLICK HERE.



ae10u -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/8/2008 1:36:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW

Given that we have a basic philosophical difference on how language is used, I really am not seeing that this thread has the slightest hope of a positive resolution.


Given the poll, and how many disagree with my viewpoint - I want to say that I think all of you have been remarkably patient with my "intransigence". I appreciate the spirit in which we have been able to express our differences - and this is one of the reasons I so like the Christian culture and the Christian community.



GroupW -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/8/2008 1:52:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ae10u

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW

Given that we have a basic philosophical difference on how language is used, I really am not seeing that this thread has the slightest hope of a positive resolution.


Given the poll, and how many disagree with my viewpoint - I want to say that I think all of you have been remarkably patient with my "intransigence". I appreciate the spirit in which we have been able to express our differences - and this is one of the reasons I so like the Christian culture and the Christian community.


Hey, we've had fun beating up on you! Thanks for taking the abuse with some good spirit. If it's true that iron sharpens iron, then we're all maybe a bit sharper for the experience.



AoibhinnGrainne -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/8/2008 2:05:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ae10u

quote:

ORIGINAL: AoibhinnGrainne


1. Scripture also states the "rules", if you will, for one taking a Nazirite vow...and not cutting the hair was one of them. Not cutting one's hair was also a sign of mourning. Scritpure also describes not cutting the corners of one's beard, too, but those prohibitions are all in the OT, so I guess to most folk here (judging, no, wait, discerning from what I've read) that makes it moot. Except the vow thing...Paul admonishes one to keep one's vows.


Vows are now forbidden in Christian culture, so the Nazarite growing their hair thing, need not have even been addressed in this thread.

Matthew 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

And by "Christian culture" I refer to "the faith once delivered" as defined by the New Testament. (Jude 1:3)

quote:


But I digress...

You wanna tell Jesus to cut His hair???


ALL scripture is given by inspiration - of whom - Christ. Thus Christ told Paul to tell us to cut our hair. Was He being a hypocrite? No. Christ had short hair.

quote:


B. Denying Christ is NOT denying "Christian culture". Have you lived elsewhere besides the States? Christian culture is quite diverse and those things we take for granted here would hardly be considered Christian or acceptable in many other places (as stated above).

I've been to different religious festivals in Italy. At least the local government allows for such public displays of religious fervour. Unlike here where we argue about nativity scenes.

Huh.


The further Christianity strays from the faith once delivered, the less acceptable it becomes. Just because we accept something (say like long hair) does not mean God has to accept it.

Jude 1:3 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

And that faith once delivered to the saints commanded short hair.

quote:


iii. Have you met any Dark Ages guys and discussed hair length with them? Do you know what their hair length was? Or their music? Art? Personal hygiene (or lack thereof)? Heck!


Likewise, how any age kept Christianity, does not define what is right or wrong. Scripture does. Hence, there is only one worthwhile Christian culture to compare ourselves against - the faith once delivered.

quote:


Is it Biblical, really, to be here on the Internet wasting time that could be spent on clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, praying, meditating, visiting the prisoners...I mean, I am assuming you are here subsequent to your doing these other Biblically commanded things...right???


Yes, doing all these things as and when we are able, is part of the faith once delivered. Glad you brought that up.

quote:


PS: Don't forget to raise holy hands whilst praying and to greet one another with a holy kiss (1Timothy 2:8; 2Corinthians 13:12).


I don't have a problem with these either - nor with taking up my cross, or going the extra mile.


If vows are now forbidden in Christian Culture, then, tell me, how does one effect a viable Marriage before the Lord? Vow or Covenant?

2Thessalonians 2:15 ~ Therefore, brothers, stand firm; and hold to the traditions you were taught by us, whether we spoke them or wrote them in a letter.

So, I am assuming, then, that the exact parameters for Biblical short hair was a verbal teaching that somehow didn't make it into the canon of the New Testament? Seeing as how Orthodox Christian men, especially the clergy, do not cut their hair, I guess the Oral Tradition of the RC Church would then have this information...since you seem unable to disseminate it to us?

As to Christ having short hair: Yes, He did, in context with the culture at the time in which no woman except prostitutes ever cut their hair. Luke, the original iconographer, drew Him from Life. So we have a written record of what Christ looked like, according to Byzantine histiography and art. You can accept the historic record or not, my friend. And, indeed, Christ had shorter hair.

But LtCol Oliver North He was not.

<whew>

If you are going to play the "culture" card it helps to know something about Christian Culture as it has developed over the centuries.

Quod ubique, quod semper, quod ab omnibus...That which has been held everywhere, always, by all...Vincent Lerins.

AoibhinnGrainne.

PS: I might add that context is everything. Seeing as how you have cut and pasted my posts, out of context, gives me an insight as to how you contend with Scripture: cut and paste out of context there as well. It is meant to be treated all-of-a-piece. Try again.



bigboytenor -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/8/2008 10:15:52 PM)

Wow, I got tired of reading all of the drivel and skipped about 10 pages. This conversation just proves that ignorance is bliss.

You can't take one verse of scripture, jerk it out of context and build a doctrine on it. I would find it difficult to breathe with my head placed where some folks have their's.[:D]

As has been stated repeatedly, the culture to which Paul was writing had a custom. That custom was that male homosexual prostitutes in the pagan temples grew their hair long as a means of identifying them as homosexual temple prostitutes. That was and, for that matter, is shameful. That clearly is the point to which Paul was referring. Not to mention the word used is "shame" not "sin." UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH! ! !

Women in the 1st century Corinthian culture who cut their hair short did so to signify that they were female prostitutes in the pagan temples. There are great resources about the history and customs of the bible that give historical references to such things. Maybe one should study those before jumping on the Pharisee wagon.



PaleHawkWoman -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/8/2008 11:27:30 PM)

Christianity was never meant to be a culture of its own, or a religion full of the traditions of men. It is meant to be a faith, a one-on-one relationship with the Living God which transcends all cultures. We are not all supposed to look alike, speak the same language, or even do church the same way(btw DO check out Pagan Christianity: The Pagan Origins of the Church... it is an eye-opener).

If God had wanted me to be white, He would have made me so, and no- He did not make a mistake when He made me Native. He gave my people our culture and established the relationship He wanted to have with us, the relationship with Creation He wanted us to have. It is nothing at all like Euro-American culture, and has its own unique gifts to share with the Church. Selfishness and ambition in which success comes at the expense of others is considered immoral to the Cherokee. Having been on the receiving end of genocide, oppression, and injustice for centuries gives us a heart for others who suffer the same, and a heck of a witness vehicle. People in other parts of the world admire Native Americans and will give us quarter they wouldn't even consider giving to "Americans". Richard Twiss, a Lakota man, preached the Gospel in the open air in Pakistan and was not attacked or arrested by the religious police; do you think Billy Graham could have done that? Several Native believers went to Tibet and Mongolia courtesy of the Chinese gov't for a cultural exchange program. They were able to smuggle in Bibles in Tibetan and the main Mongolian language, as well as a solar-powered laptop to show the Jesus video in with their regalia. The Chinese custom officials never even checked the trunks after being told that the reglia had been blessed and were items with religious significance-which they are. They've been invited back, by the way. This happened because these believers are walking their faith in their own cultures... as God intended for them to.

Every culture is redeemable, and by redeemable I do not mean that the Blood of Christ erases every aspect of a culture which is not like yours or mine. Every culture has gifts for the Body, gitfs the Body needs to be whole. God designed each culture to be a reflection of a particular aspect of His personality, something unique and different from any other. The Lord gave us the Faith to unite us in Spirit, not make us clones of each other. That's the beauty of the Faith, that we can all be different in cultural practice and traditions and yet still share the same salvation, the same joy, the same Lord.

Letterman, your approach IS legalistic- you judge others as acceptable/inacceptable to God based upon your interpretation of Scripture based upon your cultural practices, and seem to reject your brothers and sisters in the Faith who do not meet your standards. If you met my sons, would you dismiss their faith as invalid because they don't look like you think they ought to? Or would you be able to look past your own biases and see them thru Jesus' eyes?

How about my friend Reggie King from Australia? He's an Aborigine, and elder in his tribe, and has travelled the world to share his witness for the Gospel of Jesus Christ with other indigernous and non-indigenous peoples. He has come full regalia- body paint, breechcloth, barefooted, and playing the didgedaroo- and witnessed his faith as an Aboriginal man who walks in his traditional culture. He is most certainly a man after God's own heart, a committed follower of Christ. His wooly hair is shoulder-length and often held in place with a headband. Would you criticize and reject him for that?

What about Sami believers? Maori and Polynesian believers? African believers? Mongolian believers? Arab believers? None of them are going to be like you in looks, culture, or expression of their faith in worship. Will you deny that they are part of the Body of Christ and reject their witness?

None of us has the right or the credentials to define God, or define who in the Body physically does or does not reflect the real image of christianity. We're not supposed to. We are to seek His beauty in each other, and love one another as we each are... like He loves us.



GroupW -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/8/2008 11:35:55 PM)

Nice perspective. I'm a bit envious of your heritage. Being a generic WASP is a bit like vanilla ice cream minus the vanilla.



Kath -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/8/2008 11:39:11 PM)

quote:

The Lord gave us the Faith to unite us in Spirit, not make us clones of each other. That's the beauty of the Faith, that we can all be different in cultural practice and traditions and yet still share the same salvation, the same joy, the same Lord.


What a beautiful way to put it.



jbow -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/11/2008 6:52:04 PM)

I used to have hair way down my back: long, thick, and curly... and red eyes . Now I have short hair.

IMO, long hair may be a problem if it is your symbol of rebellion, like it was in the 60s and early 70s. Back then I thought I would never have short hair. These days I think long hair looks good on a guy who is still in high school, once in college I think it begins to look inappropriate.

Just my opinion though.

BTW aren't answer 2 and 3 the same thing?

Julien



J_Michael80 -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/13/2008 5:15:24 AM)

quote:

original: FearoftheLord

No one is really answering the question. Just arguing how long is too long. When the bible said that it is a shame for a man to have long hair, do you agree with the bible?


Yes, I agree.



Bluethread -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/13/2008 6:05:44 PM)

To get back to context, Paul seems to be talking comparatively. In other words, it could be seen as a clearification of the command against transvestitism. This is not the place to discuss women's hair length, so I would just say that the only thing close to an objective standard is that. That is, in general, men's hair should be shorter than women's for the purposes of differentiation.



9drtr -> RE: Should Men Have Long Hair? (3/13/2008 6:42:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GroupW

quote:

ORIGINAL: sjd2008
When I read ALL of the Corinthian books I am reminded how unruly the church was in that city. Think about it, Paul had to remind them about hair length? That's pretty pitiful in light of some of his other admonitions (like not accepting someone into fellowship who was sleeping with his own mother)[sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]. To me this speaks to a deteriorating corporate structure and worship. This should act as a warning to all church members that there are certain behavior standards and that they should be kept.

As I said the fact that Paul had to tell them (in essence) how to dress is an indication of corporate faiure not necessarily individual failure.


You get the context prize.


No, I do.

When Clement of Rome wrote to the Corinthians, he had to admonish them to get back to reading their letters from Paul.



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