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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/12/2008 1:48:08 PM
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4ChristisLove
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Tony - I would love a review! I haven't read it, but have done a lot of research online, watched Oprah's show with Echart Tolle discussing it, and I also watched the 1st online study that was about an hour long.
I posted notes in a previous post above about that discussion and why I don't feel it contains the right teachings. Sure, a Non-Christian may love it or even someone who claim's to be a Christian, like Oprah, but obviously she has a huge misunderstanding about what a Christian believes and how we obtain eternal life.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/12/2008 10:09:20 PM
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relady
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quote:
obviously she has a huge misunderstanding about what a Christian believes and how we obtain eternal life. That may be very true, and could actually probably be interestingly debated....on a different forum. However, I don't think that is what this book & classes are about -- from what I can decipher from the little bit I've watched and read, it's about realizing your purpose more fully while you are here on earth and living your life to its fullest purpose. I think that is something far too few people spend time searching out, whether Christian or not.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/12/2008 11:47:41 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
obviously she has a huge misunderstanding about what a Christian believes and how we obtain eternal life. That may be very true, and could actually probably be interestingly debated....on a different forum. However, I don't think that is what this book & classes are about -- from what I can decipher from the little bit I've watched and read, it's about realizing your purpose more fully while you are here on earth and living your life to its fullest purpose. I think that is something far too few people spend time searching out, whether Christian or not.
but the book/class's finding puropose means your sinLESS self is ever evolving spiritually. and the cross was worthless.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/13/2008 4:13:40 PM
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rcorson
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I also watched the YouTube video and was creeped out, then saddened by what I saw. I thought that at one point she knew Christ as her savior but is now purpously denying him? Very, very sad. Not to get off topick, but I had wondered if what she was doing can be classified as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? After all, she had denied Christ to everyone. This is not an area I have studied extensively and am curious about the answer. I sure hope she repents before Christ returns or something happens to her or she won't like where she is headed.
Rachel
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/13/2008 4:51:44 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
obviously she has a huge misunderstanding about what a Christian believes and how we obtain eternal life. That may be very true, and could actually probably be interestingly debated....on a different forum. However, I don't think that is what this book & classes are about -- from what I can decipher from the little bit I've watched and read, it's about realizing your purpose more fully while you are here on earth and living your life to its fullest purpose. I think that is something far too few people spend time searching out, whether Christian or not.
The author and the book's message is clearly anti-Christian and its principles are an affront to the cross, to Jesus.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/13/2008 5:01:46 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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the new age path/destination is enlightenment, one's higher quality spiritual life. the christians path is to....God. right relationship to God.
new age doesn't need the cross or Jesus because they are not trying to get to God. they are trying to evolve spiritually with the force of the universe.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/13/2008 6:36:29 PM
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4ChristisLove
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
obviously she has a huge misunderstanding about what a Christian believes and how we obtain eternal life. That may be very true, and could actually probably be interestingly debated....on a different forum. However, I don't think that is what this book & classes are about -- from what I can decipher from the little bit I've watched and read, it's about realizing your purpose more fully while you are here on earth and living your life to its fullest purpose. I think that is something far too few people spend time searching out, whether Christian or not.
but read this (troublesome for those that are not thinking "eternity")..........
From Oprah's website: During the Chapter 4 class, Eckhart explained why he does not fear death. "The ego has dissolved, and so only the ego fears death," he said. "I know there is no death. Usually when people talk about immortality, they use certain arguments, perhaps from physics. They say the energy never gets destroyed. Energy can only become transformed. So the vital energy that is your life, because energy cannot be destroyed, must survive in some form. That is often the argument for the survival of that life—there is no death. Only the form dissolves."
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/13/2008 7:50:01 PM
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relady
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quote:
I also watched the YouTube video and was creeped out, then saddened by what I saw. I thought that at one point she knew Christ as her savior but is now purpously denying him? Very, very sad. Not to get off topick, but I had wondered if what she was doing can be classified as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? After all, she had denied Christ to everyone. This is not an area I have studied extensively and am curious about the answer. I sure hope she repents before Christ returns or something happens to her or she won't like where she is headed. I saw the U Tube video, too, and it is a lot of clips of the show, most of them taken quite out of context to make Oprah look her worst. Which is not surprising considering the vitriol in the fundamentalist community over this. LOL. There are plenty of Christians (myself among them) who are open to the possibility that God may have more than one way to find him. It's for sure there's more than one way to find Jesus. He will come to you wherever you are.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/13/2008 9:52:40 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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new age is not about finding God or Jesus. it's about building your own good and evolving into a better person by yourself. it's about being on some spiritual wave length, not about God as a supreme being that has a personality. new age is about being sinless and therefore not needing the cross or a savior.
new age taking God "out of the box" means not viewing Him as He defined Himself. if you listen to all they say about God you will find they don't see Him as a person at all. God is just a universal energy that we can all be a successful part of.
use the force luke. it's within you, and all throughout the universe. darth has the same force, but he is less evolved and he uses the force for evil. yep, same force though.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/14/2008 1:26:49 AM
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bufo
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I read "A New Earth" some time ago. I am not an expert on "new age" thought. However, I didn't really feel that "A New Earth" was particularly new agey. I am more familar with buddhist thought and I was struck by how Tolle's book seemed very consistent with a buddhist approach, though he does not use buddhist language. Similarly, someone else mentioned Deepak Chopra as being a "new ager". Again, I am no expert, but I think Chopra comes pretty squarely out of a hindu context. In discussed Tolle (and Chopra), I think it is helpful to realize that they both appear to come out of or at least o be very similar to long standing, well-established spiritual traditions, buddhism and hinduism respectively. It might be useful to consider this and thus avoid characterizing them as johnny come lately 'new agers ' who are making stuff up. .
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/14/2008 1:51:57 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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tolle elaborates on...religion or beliefs systems are low forms of spirituality, and some people are STUCK at that low level. p.17 etc
God is simply the Divine energy, Source in all things. yes things not just people or nature.
"Each thing has Beingness. A temporary form that has its origin within the formeless one Life, the source of all things, all bodies all forms. In most ancient cultures, people believed that everything even so-called inanimate objects, had indwelling spirit, and in this respect, they were closer to the truth than we are today." p.37
_____________________________
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/14/2008 5:12:10 PM
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bufo
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Re Mrs. Dash comments: Though I don't have the context before me, I suspect what tolle was getting at in his critique of "religion or belief systems" is the emphasis that many religions place on belief or the content of belief. This tends to emphasize conceptual thinking. This emphasis can tend to entangle one into disputes about precise meanings and beliefs and intepretations, rules etc, When focusing on ideas in an intellectual, verbal way, the practices of compassion, putting aside self and judgements is sometimes lost. Tolle and perhaps buddhism and probably many historical Christian practioners (such as Christian mystics}, while using and honoring conceptual thinking also tend to emphasize the practice side of the equation as opposed to belief. In other words, they tend to emphasize the "not knowing" side of experience, the mystery, the inability to and danger is grasping God fully as a concept or idea. Instead, they emphasize practices such as giving, tranquility, non judging, seeing through the ego etc. in an attempt to realize love and peace in a broader experiential and relational way.
Tolle may be pointing to this experience of "not knowing" intellectually, which emphasizes an opening up and receptivilty to existence and others and respect to people and things. One can look at Jesus's teachings and construct the same type of split. ie. Was Jesus really interested in telling you what to precisely believe about him and God as ideas or was he more interested in advocating and demonstating practices such as loving, generosity, putting aside self, non attachment to judgments, non-violence, and compassion to bring one into awareness and relationship of peace and love? In this way, Jesus didn't really seem to be about intellectual, rules and meanings, but more about broader experience and love. In his own way, I think Tolle, is simply arguing and talking from love/practice side of the this split, rather than the law/rule/concept side (in much the same way that Jesus could be said to do when viewed in contrast to the pharisees.) Tolle of course is not a christian, but he may be arguing for a love/practice oriented view that is well within the Christian tradition. Thus, when tolle talks of the "beingness" ,"formlessness as the source" versus the world of transistory forms, he is not really talking about things as having spirits, but is again emphasizing the ungraspable mystery life which can not be reached by words or ideas, but only experienced. In this way, his language is very similar to that of much of buddhist thought and practice, as well as jewish and christian thought and practice when viewed from certain perspectives. If one looks at Tolle from a christian doctrinal view, Tolle will always look like a demon, because he is not a christian. However, if one looks at tolle as someone who is talking about "practices" of selfless giving, love, tranquility, non-attachment to judgement etc, humility, then one might see some common ground between tolle and christian practice.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/14/2008 5:18:47 PM
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D3kkerfan
Posts: 64
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
I also watched the YouTube video and was creeped out, then saddened by what I saw. I thought that at one point she knew Christ as her savior but is now purpously denying him? Very, very sad. Not to get off topick, but I had wondered if what she was doing can be classified as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? After all, she had denied Christ to everyone. This is not an area I have studied extensively and am curious about the answer. I sure hope she repents before Christ returns or something happens to her or she won't like where she is headed. I saw the U Tube video, too, and it is a lot of clips of the show, most of them taken quite out of context to make Oprah look her worst. Which is not surprising considering the vitriol in the fundamentalist community over this. LOL. There are plenty of Christians (myself among them) who are open to the possibility that God may have more than one way to find him. It's for sure there's more than one way to find Jesus. He will come to you wherever you are.
"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. NO MAN comes to the Father, except through Me."
More than one way? A flat-out rejection of Scripture on your part.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/14/2008 5:20:16 PM
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D3kkerfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
tolle elaborates on...religion or beliefs systems are low forms of spirituality, and some people are STUCK at that low level. p.17 etc
God is simply the Divine energy, Source in all things. yes things not just people or nature.
"Each thing has Beingness. A temporary form that has its origin within the formeless one Life, the source of all things, all bodies all forms. In most ancient cultures, people believed that everything even so-called inanimate objects, had indwelling spirit, and in this respect, they were closer to the truth than we are today." p.37
This is the same level of hokum as promulgated by Scientology, Hinduism, et. al. Only those who follow Eckhart and Oprah, naturally *SARCASM* have attained such spiritual evolution. 
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/14/2008 5:21:36 PM
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D3kkerfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bufo
Re Mrs. Dash comments: Though I don't have the context before me, I suspect what tolle was getting at in his critique of "religion or belief systems" is the emphasis that many religions place on belief or the content of belief. This tends to emphasize conceptual thinking. This emphasis can tend to entangle one into disputes about precise meanings and beliefs and intepretations, rules etc, When focusing on ideas in an intellectual, verbal way, the practices of compassion, putting aside self and judgements is sometimes lost. Tolle and perhaps buddhism and probably many historical Christian practioners (such as Christian mystics}, while using and honoring conceptual thinking also tend to emphasize the practice side of the equation as opposed to belief. In other words, they tend to emphasize the "not knowing" side of experience, the mystery, the inability to and danger is grasping God fully as a concept or idea. Instead, they emphasize practices such as giving, tranquility, non judging, seeing through the ego etc. in an attempt to realize love and peace in a broader experiential and relational way.
Tolle may be pointing to this experience of "not knowing" intellectually, which emphasizes an opening up and receptivilty to existence and others and respect to people and things. One can look at Jesus's teachings and construct the same type of split. ie. Was Jesus really interested in telling you what to precisely believe about him and God as ideas or was he more interested in advocating and demonstating practices such as loving, generosity, putting aside self, non attachment to judgments, non-violence, and compassion to bring one into awareness and relationship of peace and love? In this way, Jesus didn't really seem to be about intellectual, rules and meanings, but more about broader experience and love. In his own way, I think Tolle, is simply arguing and talking from love/practice side of the this split, rather than the law/rule/concept side (in much the same way that Jesus could be said to do when viewed in contrast to the pharisees.) Tolle of course is not a christian, but he may be arguing for a love/practice oriented view that is well within the Christian tradition. Thus, when tolle talks of the "beingness" ,"formlessness as the source" versus the world of transistory forms, he is not really talking about things as having spirits, but is again emphasizing the ungraspable mystery life which can not be reached by words or ideas, but only experienced. In this way, his language is very similar to that of much of buddhist thought and practice, as well as jewish and christian thought and practice when viewed from certain perspectives. If one looks at Tolle from a christian doctrinal view, Tolle will always look like a demon, because he is not a christian. However, if one looks at tolle as someone who is talking about "practices" of selfless giving, love, tranquility, non-attachment to judgement etc, humility, then one might see some common ground between tolle and christian practice.
Not buying this "common ground" argument. "What concord hath Christ with Belial? What agreement is there between Jesus and Satan?"
Apostle Paul, for the win!!!!
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/14/2008 5:23:58 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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tolle doesn't say that everything has a spirit in it but that that is close to true. true (accordint to tolle) is that there is one spiritual energy source running through and the source of everything. there is no God as a person in tolle or new age teaching.
you describe Jesus' purpose much like tolle does. Jesus didn't come to show us a better way to live. the law (ten commandments sacrifice system etc) showed us that and also by God's design showed us that we can only fail God's standards. fail to the point of death. permanant separation from God. Jesus came to reconcile sinners to right relationship to God.
righteousness, good behavior that is spiritually fruitful, is an outcome of right relationship to God. outside of a right relationship to God, good works are worthless.
tolle teaches a path to destruction. a path where we don't need a savior, just enlightenment.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/14/2008 5:36:27 PM
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D3kkerfan
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Jesus = Narrow Path
Oprah & Eckhart = Wide Path that leads to destruction.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/14/2008 5:42:14 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bufo
Was Jesus really interested in telling you what to precisely believe about him and God as ideas or was he more interested in advocating and demonstating practices such as loving, generosity, putting aside self, non attachment to judgments, non-violence, and compassion to bring one into awareness and relationship of peace and love?
you might want to grab a red letter edition of a bible and review Jesus' words. (red letter making it very easy to see where Jesus' words are)
He did infact make BIG statements about who He was and what we are to believe about Him, and....that believing those things about Him and believing in His ability to reconcile us to the Father was THE crucial message.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/14/2008 5:46:48 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bufo
Was Jesus really interested in telling you what to precisely believe about him and God as ideas
Jesus was very interested in absolutes about who He was and who do you say He is. When Jesus came to Caesarea Philippi, He asked his disciples the mother of all questions, "Who do you say that I am?" (Matthew 16:15, Mark 8:29, Luke 9:20).
Mormons answer this question by saying that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer; Jehovah Witnesses answer by saying that Jesus is the archangel Michael; New Agers say Jesus is an avatar or enlightened messenger.
Jesus, however, answered by claiming that He was God.
First, Jesus claimed to be the unique Son of God. As a result, the Jewish leaders tried to kill Him because in "calling God His own Father, Jesus was making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).
In John 8:58 Jesus went so far as to use the very words by which God revealed Himself to Moses from the burning bush (Exodus 3:14). To the Jews this was the epitome of blasphemy for they knew that in doing so Jesus was clearly claiming to be God.
On yet another occasion, Jesus explicitly told the Jews: "I and the Father are one.' Again the Jews picked up stones to stone Him, but Jesus said to them "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me? We are not stoning you for any of these, ' replied the Jews, 'but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God (John 10:30-33).
Furthermore, Jesus made an unmistakable claim to deity before the Chief Priests and the whole Sanhedrin. Caiaphas the High Priest asked him: "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One? 'I am,' said Jesus. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven" (Mark 14:61-62).
A biblically illiterate person might well have missed the import of Jesus' words.
Caiaphas and the Council, however, did not. They knew that in saying he was "the Son of Man" who would come "on the clouds of heaven" he was making a overt reference to the Son of Man in Daniel's prophecy (Daniel 7:13-14).
And in doing so, He was not only claiming to be the preexistent Sovereign of the Universe but prophesying that He would vindicate His claim by judging the very court that was now condemning Him.
Moreover, by combining Daniel's prophecy with David's proclamation in Psalm 110, Jesus was claiming that He would sit upon the throne of Israel's God and share God's very glory.
To students of the Old Testament this was the height of "blasphemy," thus "they all condemned Him as worthy of death" (Mark 14:64).
Finally, Jesus claimed to possess the very attributes of God.
For example, He claimed omniscience by telling Peter, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times" (Matthew 26:34); declared omnipotence by not only resurrecting Lazarus (John 11:43) but by raising Himself from the dead (see John 2:1(); and professed omnipresence by promising He would be with his disciples "to the very end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).
Not only so, but Jesus said to the paralytic in Luke 5:20, "Friend, your sins are forgiven." In doing so, he claimed a prerogative reserved for God alone. In addition, when Thomas worshiped Jesus saying, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:20), Jesus responded with commendation rather than condemnation.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/15/2008 1:34:46 AM
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bufo
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Earthless, Mrs. Dash,and D3kkerfan:
Thank you for your comments. I am not a Christian and not particularly steeped in Christian doctrine. However, I am familiar enough with Christian scripture and doctrine to have been previously aware of the points you have raised, and how they are regarded by many Christians, and actually considered those points as the background for my prior comments. My intent was more to point out what I see as a potential common ground between some Christian practices and practices from other traditions, particularly some forms of buddhism. My intent was also to suggest that tolle's approach seems to have many similarities to some buddhist approaches, though from what I can see he doesn't use the same language or acknowledge a link with buddhism directly. Thus, I tend to see him as possibly related to a specific set of religious traditions and practices that span at least the last 2500 years. I realize that to some, to make such observations is heretical, to others such observations might simply be interesting and broaden their understanding of their own faith and practice and that of others. That's all. I suspect that we all tend to filter new information through the lens of your prior experience and beliefs. That in part, is what I find interesting about Tolle, his emphasis on the ungraspability of reality through conceptual thinking. The emphasis on practice and faith in practice to surrender selfish concerns and to embody certain qualities in one's life, rather than the emphasis on conceptual belief and verbal formulations and armoring a rationalizing ego with further self-justifying defenses. People can hash out concepts and verbal formulations forever splitting hairs and showing up others , but actualizing love and relationship with God (or reality or unconstructedness in stillness or some other verbal expression of the inexpressible) in one's heart and life are intimate personal and experiential.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/15/2008 2:28:43 AM
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OLEEguacamole
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tolle does mention buddhism, other eastern religions/philosphy, and Jesus. Jesus is mentioned in every chapter. bible is quoted in every chapter.
but tolle says that God is not a person. God is an energy found in everything, living or not. there is no need to reconcile with a perfect holy God because there is no such person.
in order to see new age thought (largely eastern religious philosphy) as similar to christianity one must IGNORE the LARGEST claims and statements made by Christ, and/or must reinterpret them and say that Jesus was talking about something different. tolle does this in every chapter. espousing new age thought and then saying this was what Jesus was talking about.
the new age path is to "consciousness" and the love peace etc that is claimed as a result of this.
the christian path is to God. the person God, whom we have failed but can find redemption in Jesus and thus be reunited with the perfect holy PERSON, the God of the universe. IF....we choose to follow Jesus.
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there's life in a pit.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/15/2008 9:23:02 AM
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stampinlady
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What does the book say about the Holy Spirit?
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Deb
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/15/2008 8:35:39 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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there's no God how can there be a Holy Spirit?
according to tolle (and other new age) the spiritual energy is in all it's a divine energy not a person. tolle says when Jesus said I AM he was referring to the I AMness of all of us. not His exclusive Godship. we are all I Am part of the divine energy. tolle capitizies the A in Am.
tolle quotes Jesus in EVERY chapter and explains how his statements were explaining various new age thought.
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there's life in a pit.
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RE: A New Earth -- Oprah and Eckart Tolle - 4/16/2008 12:52:14 AM
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bufo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: D3kkerfan
One thing you can always count on with New Ageism: religious syncretism. That is, it's a virtual hodgepodge of Hinduism, Buddhism, feel-goodism (I made that one up  ), with just a little "Jesus" thrown in for good measure (IMO, to salve their consciences and to lure in undiscerning Christians).
Do you really think tolle or buddhists etc try to make these connections about similarities in spiritual practices to "salve their consciences and to lure in undiscerning Christians"?
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