RE: IF the rapture is scriptural,

RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (Full Version)

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chrystar -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/22/2008 12:59:55 PM)
Melanie Many of us have felt that way before, It is "normal" to feel that way, I agree with previous pster that the prodigal son is great source of hope when you feel this way, I would also recomend this verse from 2Tim 2:11-13, it one of my favorite verses and always gove me hope- 11Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; 12if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; 13if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.(NIV) verse 13 is the key, he remains faithful, and yes if we disown him he will claim no kinship to us, but no matter how unfaithful we are, he is always ready and waiting for us to love us when we come back. What a truly wonderful GOd we have that no matter what we do, he is waiting with open arms to love us when we come back. Coming back to him is what is important, not what you did when when you ran away.

JesKlu -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/22/2008 1:18:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 I bet you intended to ask...if a pretrib rapture is scriptural please give the verse. Bob: You are quite right. This question is about establishing a pre-tribulation rapture from Scripture. The first thing to understand is that the Tribulation that comes upon this world before the Second coming of Christ is a manifestation of the wrath of God against sin and wickedness. The Tribulation period (including the Great Tribulation) is a series of judgments on mankind. From Rev. 6-19, all we see is the Tribulation Period, and there is not a word about the Church receiving judgments through this period. This is God's wrath against sin, just as Noah's Flood was a worldwide judgment against sin and wickedness. Christians have been saved from wrath through the sacrifice of Christ (Jn. 3:36). Scripture teaches a pre-tribulation rapture without the shadow of a doubt. 1 Thess. 1:10 -- And to wait for His Son from Heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, WHICH DELIVERED US FROM THE WRATH TO COME. 1 Thess. 5:9 -- For God HATH NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. What is "the wrath to come"? See Rev. 6-19 for the answer. Because the coming of Christ for His saints is their "blessed hope" (Tit. 2:13), Paul says again and again in connection with the Rapture, "Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thess. 4:18), "Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, as also ye do" (1 Thess. 5:11), "And to you who are troubled, rest with us..." (2 Thess. 1:7), "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled,..." (2 Thess. 2:2), "Now our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and given us everlasting consolation, and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work" (2 Thess. 2:16,17). Tribulation does not give comfort. Therefore those who deny a pre-tribulation rapture understand neither the meanng of God's wrath, nor His grace and mercy to those who have believed on His Son. Christians, be comforted. We are not appointed to wrath. Hello Ezra! I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this subject. The pre-trib rapture was not even officially taught in the church until 1830. That should bring up some suspicion. Whenever a Christian encounters a doctrine that has not been taught by anyone in any branch of Christ’s church for over eighteen centuries, one should be very suspect of that teaching. This fact in and of itself does not prove that the new teaching is false. But, it should definitely raise one’s suspicions, for if something is taught in Scripture, it is not unreasonable to expect at least a few theologians and exegetes to have discovered it before. The teaching of a secret pretribulation rapture is a doctrine that never existed before 1830. Did the pretribulation rapture come into existence by a careful exegesis of Scripture? No. The first person to teach the doctrine was a young woman named Margaret Macdonald. Margaret was not a theologian or Bible expositor but was a prophetess in the Irvingite sect (the Catholic Apostolic Church). Christian journalist Dave MacPherson has written a book on the subject of the origin of the pre-tribulation rapture. He writes: “We have seen that a young Scottish lassie named Margaret Macdonald had a private revelation in Port Glasgow, Scotland, in the early part of 1830 that a select group of Christians would be caught up to meet Christ in the air before the days of Antichrist. http://www.reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/rapture.htm This doctrine came about by a young woman named Margaret Macdonald in 1830 who received a PRIVATE REVELATION. That alone should raise everybody's suspicions. Your sister in Christ Jesus, Jessica

LoyalGypsy -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/22/2008 6:54:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lapidoth This is where the Lord is going when we rise to "greet" Him in the air. The destination is NOT heaven, but Jerusalem at the Mount of Olives. Also, the location of the "Marriage of the Lamb." Greetings Hey Lap, But when does Jesus present us faultless before the Father?[:(] The destination at the Mount of Olives would suggest that He is going to present us faultless to the Father concluding quote: the Fathers wrath on the earth, .....Sounds like a bachelor party I wouldn’t want to attend! [:D] LG

LoyalGypsy -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/22/2008 8:16:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chrystar quote: ORIGINAL: x0846 quote: ORIGINAL: bettymackII please type the CLEAR verse that states the church is not here during the tribulation.Thanks “Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” (Rev 19) You can't have a wedding without the bride and since the saints are the bride and they are ready it's clear they aren't in the tribulation period. There's many more verses that tell us the church will not go through the tribulation period, do you need more or is this good enough? X0864- That is wrong and dosent't follow logic- you ASSUME that Jesus has taken his bride away before the tribulation, he could very easily be talken about thoose who have survied the tribulation you cant use the same argument as proof of itself, why do you ASSUME that the saints that are ready, are in heaven and not on earth? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Shalom, chrystar! Well done! Now, your next step is to also determine that Posttrib, as Posttribbers will present it, doesn't work, either. Then, if you pursue similar logic, you will find that Midtrib or Pre-Wrath doesn't work and neither does Partial Rapture! (And, with all due respect to Preterists, Preterism doesn't work, either, ESPECIALLY when one takes a literal viewpoint on the Scriptures +++++++++++++++++++++ I am not saying I disagree with you Retrobyter,( and thanks for the above) but Iam curious why you think the logic will lead to disproving post trib as well?, can you provide some moe insight? Thanks!!! Greetings, As Lapidoth mentioned… quote: What does this verse clearly say? 1. Let us be glad 2. Let us rejoice 3. Let us give Him glory 4. The marriage of the Lamb has come 5. His wife (Israel) had made herself ready The other "many more verses that tell us the church will not go through the tribulation period" are just as elusive. We have read into the verses the doctrine of rapture. That is wrong and doesn’t follow logic- you ASSUME that Jesus has taken his bride away before the tribulation, he could very easily be taken about those who have survived the tribulation you cant use the same argument as proof of itself, why do you ASSUME that the saints that are ready, are in heaven and not on earth? I am not saying I disagree with you Retrobyter,( and thanks for the above) but Iam curious why you think the logic will lead to disproving post trib as well?, can you provide some moe insight? why do you ASSUME that the saints that are ready, are in heaven and not on earth? ………can you provide some moe insight? The reference to verse 5 calling His wife Israel who has made herself ready according to the tradition is not a betrothal…. and according to tradition the prophecy says that the wedding (because Israel has made herself ready) = must now take place =is a fixed time, Meaning the wedding can not take place in less than 7 years, but must take place in 7 years. Remember when Jacob was outwitted by Laban after fulfilling 7 years for Rachel and received Leah who was the first born, whom born him many sons. And when that 7 was over Rachel’s jealousy caused her not to conceive Which Bride best describes Israel in that prophetic reference given in Daniels weeks?? 5. His wife (Israel) …Rachel) had made herself ready to conceive and the Rapture of the Church is synonymous followed by Israel’s conception in quick succession LG

Retrobyter -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/22/2008 10:53:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy quote: ORIGINAL: Lapidoth This is where the Lord is going when we rise to "greet" Him in the air. The destination is NOT heaven, but Jerusalem at the Mount of Olives. Also, the location of the "Marriage of the Lamb." Greetings Hey Lap, But when does Jesus present us faultless before the Father?[:(] The destination at the Mount of Olives would suggest that He is going to present us faultless to the Father concluding quote: the Fathers wrath on the earth, .....Sounds like a bachelor party I wouldn’t want to attend! [:D] LG Shalom, LoyalGypsy! To answer your question, "But when does Jesus present us faultless before the Father?[:(]" I will ask you one: When does the BRANCH finish the next Temple? Zech 6:12-13 12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: 13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both. KJV One does not normally present oneself before God by "going to Heaven." One has always traditionally presented oneself before God AT THE TEMPLE OF GOD! (Oh, and don't go using verses from Job; there's nothing in them to demand that haSatan is "going to Heaven" to present himself, either!) Now, to you and to others: Does Yeshua` have two "brides," Isra'el and the Church? I would submit to you that such a conclusion would be contradictory when Yeshua` Himself said, Matt 19:4-6 4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. KJV This is another reason why I do not see a distinction between Isra'el and the church, and if there is no distinction, then one must be a subset of the other! Some Christians have concluded then that "SAVED" Isra'el can be a part of the church, but I believe just the opposite! WE Goyim (Gentiles) who have come to believe in Isra'el's Messiah and have been adopted into the Commonwealth of Isra'el and have been grafted into the Olive Tree (the Kingdom of David which is the inheritance of the Messiah and which does not exit until the King Himself returns because He IS the embodiment of the Kingdom) have actually become a part of the Messiah's New Isra'el prematurely! "All Isra'el shall be saved!" And, to Lapidoth, I would also like to add, The Judgment Seat of Christ which is the Judgment Seat of the Messiah would ALSO make the best sense when the Messiah is reigning from His father David's throne! "David's throne" IS a judgment seat! What does a King do, anyway? Retrobyter

Sinner-Saint -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/23/2008 8:02:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Retrobyter To answer your question, "But when does Jesus present us faultless before the Father?[:(]" I will ask you one: When does the BRANCH finish the next Temple? Wrong question. Your question suggests Jesus will build the Millennium Temple when actually, He may only transform the third Temple which will be built. This is because the Millennium passages in Ezekiel describe a Temple with water coming out of its base, yet he also describes a Temple which John was told to measure and Ezekiel does write down what a man does measure in his heavenly vision of this future Temple. As the Temple will be built before the Midpoint of the one 'seven' and ostensibly during the first half when Israel enjoys some sense of peace, and the fact that man cannot have the type of water coming out of it which can heal the land as Ezekiel describes happening later - we're looking at two different types of Temples - but one which can have the same structure. However, when Jesus said that not only would the Herodian Temple be pulled down (which it was in A.D. 70) but that He would build it back up again in three days - Jesus was not describing a building of stone but speaking figuratively of Himself and we accordingly are as living stones which make up the structure of the Church - which is a body and also is not a building as the term has come to pass in our lexicon. So your quote of Zechariah 6:12-13 misses the mark in saying we have to go to a certain place to present ourselves to the Lord. But then again, there is much we disagree with at a fundamental level... so I don't expect to see this resolved either. I just want to add that there is a view which answers the question without asking a question which has no bearing. As such, my view does not oppose yours which suggests just a bipolar linear relationship; our views are askew: we don't even touch in three dimensional space.

Coffee_Drinker -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/23/2008 9:01:24 AM)
Without turning this into a contest of wits (I have no wits) or becoming an argument over a matter of opinions and interpretations - I have a few questions... It appears a majority of people here believe that the "saved" will have to go through the first three and a half years of tribulation before the rapture hits. That's cool! You can believe that. I don't really care. Why is it important whether Jesus comes before, just before or after 3 1/2 years? If Jesus comes before - that's wonderful! Then all those that have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their savior won't have to go through any tribulation. The same goes for "just before" too. We get to miss all that pain, suffering and all that bad stuff that is going to happen. Then, even at 3 1/2 years into the tribulation. That's cool too! We only get to suffer for three and a half years while we faithfully wait for our Lord and Savior to come for "his Church." That would be okay... I guess. I'll try to wait 3 1/2 years. But, I'm only a man. A man with human feelings and emotions. I really don't know if I could handle waiting 3 1/2 years of tribulation and maybe, just maybe, with all those Seal and Trumpet judgements happening all around me and maybe, just maybe, burying my wife, my kids or even some or all of my grandkids because my Lord, whom I openly confess, and whom I place all my trust in that he will give me the strength to bear this great burden. I might just have to ask him "why?" someday. I don't know. I'm only a man.

B1inhim -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/23/2008 9:50:01 AM)
I love y'all very much and for me to not at least show you what I was shown is a sin for me. If there are proofs for the PRE-TRIBULATION rapture, show them...So that I may believe as well. Otherwise, let us go and grow in the unity of faith in Christ Jesus. If we do stay here till the sixth seal is opened up, there will be ALOT of unprepared Children... Look around you, the signs of the times are more so than ever before, that the in the sky return of Lord Jesus is upon us at any given moment. There is a rapture of the Body of Christ. Rev. 4:11 (KJV) Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created. It is my goal in this time and life to bring pleasure to GOD in all things. My past is a wreck, with no good thing to speak of. Yet in His will (GOD in heaven’s) I am still here to testify of what was shown to me. That thing is not for this servants benefit only, but for the benefit of entire body of Christ. Getting ready for the next phase of the prophecy of God’s will be done here on earth as it is in heaven is not a small thing. It is a time of great expectation and faith on our parts. Many of us know the basics of what to do and what not to do, in maintaining our salvation. Romans 12:1 (KJV) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. Romans 12:1 (NLT) And so, dear brothers and sisters, I plead with you to give your bodies to God. Let them be a living and holy sacrifice—the kind he will accept. When you think of what he has done for you, is this too much to ask? 2Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will know what God wants you to do, and you will know how good and pleasing and perfect his will really is. Philip. 2:12 (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Shine Brightly for Chris Philip. 2:12 (NLT) Dearest friends, you were always so careful to follow my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away you must be even more careful to put into action God’s saving work in your lives, obeying God with deep reverence and fear. 13For God is working in you, giving you the desire to obey him and the power to do what pleases him. 14In everything you do, stay away from complaining and arguing, 15so that no one can speak a word of blame against you. You are to live clean, innocent lives as children of God in a dark world full of crooked and perverse people. Let your lives shine brightly before them. These are expected and we do this because it is pleasing in God’s sight. So is the telling of something that is given for the edification, exhortation and admonishment of the Body of Christ. For this reason here am I and to God be all the glory. There is absolutely, positively no evidence of the Body of Christ as a group being in the presence of God until Revelation 7. The supposition (something that is supposed: HYPOTHESIS) of the Body of Christ being in front of GOD and singing Rev. 5:9 (KJV) …Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; “ is just plain wrong. The Apostle John was given the honor and DIRECT responsibility of reporting exactly what he saw. (Rev. 1:19 (KJV) Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;) He did NOT leave out the Raptured peoples as a point of reference in his account of the Revelation…He mentioned every single solitary being present before the Throne of GOD in Revelation chapters 4,5,6,7 and so on. To add to the Revelation or subtract from it has grave consequences. Thus I am warning anyone who is inserting things into any part of the Revelation, Not to do so. Rev. 22:18-19 (KJV) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: [19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. So when does the Harpazo, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of Greek 138 (haireomai); to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force). Of the Body of Christ take place? The only biblical evidence of a multitude of peoples, kindreds, nation’s and tongues happening is after the 120,000 end day servants are marked. During the beginning of the wrath of GOD, we are plucked, pulled and taken by force out of this planet... The proof is not in supposition or theory... it is in BLACK and WHITE. Rev. 6:11 (KJV) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Love, Brother Jerry

Coffee_Drinker -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/23/2008 10:00:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: B1inhim The only biblical evidence of a multitude of peoples, kindreds, nation’s and tongues happening is after the 120,000 end day servants are marked. During the beginning of the wrath of GOD, we are plucked, pulled and taken by force out of this planet... The proof is not in supposition or theory... it is in BLACK and WHITE. Love, Brother Jerry That's... real nice... Brother Jerry. Q - 120,000 servants marked? I thought it was 144,000?

B1inhim -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/23/2008 11:41:39 AM)
you are correct... my typo thank you Brother Jerry

Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/23/2008 12:26:59 PM)
quote: One does not normally present oneself before God by "going to Heaven." One has always traditionally presented oneself before God AT THE TEMPLE OF GOD! (Oh, and don't go using verses from Job; there's nothing in them to demand that haSatan is "going to Heaven" to present himself, either!) forgive me, I haven't read the posts after Retro. Just wanted to thank Retro for bringing that to my attention. I went back and looked it up. How often we have "read into" the book of Job that Satan was coming before God's throne in heaven. He is still the accuser of the brethren. I pride myself on seeing the Scriptures "as they are written," yet at the same time know I will always have little endoctrinations coming to the surface as I study. So.........there's another for the delete button. LoL, thanks. And thanks for the Bema in Jerusalem. I did know that. lol.

Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/23/2008 12:51:10 PM)
Here's an interesting link. I haven't read it all so take it for what it's worth. Glean from it if you can. http://www.tnnonline.net/tribnews/eschatology/answering-pretrib/index.html

Retrobyter -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/24/2008 12:54:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lapidoth Here's an interesting link. I haven't read it all so take it for what it's worth. Glean from it if you can. http://www.tnnonline.net/tribnews/eschatology/answering-pretrib/index.html Shabbat shalom, Lapidoth! Thanks for the link. Looks pretty good so far. I hope I can find a way to communicate with the editor! Looks like we'd have fun talking! Retrobyter

Retrobyter -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/24/2008 3:03:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint quote: ORIGINAL: Retrobyter To answer your question, "But when does Jesus present us faultless before the Father?[:(]" I will ask you one: When does the BRANCH finish the next Temple? Wrong question. Your question suggests Jesus will build the Millennium Temple when actually, He may only transform the third Temple which will be built. This is because the Millennium passages in Ezekiel describe a Temple with water coming out of its base, yet he also describes a Temple which John was told to measure and Ezekiel does write down what a man does measure in his heavenly vision of this future Temple. As the Temple will be built before the Midpoint of the one 'seven' and ostensibly during the first half when Israel enjoys some sense of peace, and the fact that man cannot have the type of water coming out of it which can heal the land as Ezekiel describes happening later - we're looking at two different types of Temples - but one which can have the same structure. However, when Jesus said that not only would the Herodian Temple be pulled down (which it was in A.D. 70) but that He would build it back up again in three days - Jesus was not describing a building of stone but speaking figuratively of Himself and we accordingly are as living stones which make up the structure of the Church - which is a body and also is not a building as the term has come to pass in our lexicon. So your quote of Zechariah 6:12-13 misses the mark in saying we have to go to a certain place to present ourselves to the Lord. But then again, there is much we disagree with at a fundamental level... so I don't expect to see this resolved either. I just want to add that there is a view which answers the question without asking a question which has no bearing. As such, my view does not oppose yours which suggests just a bipolar linear relationship; our views are askew: we don't even touch in three dimensional space. Shabbat shalom, Sinner-Saint! YOU say, "Wrong question." However, I see them as intimately linked! You see, before the Temple, before the Tabernacle, men came to present themselves before the LORD at the altars they set up to Him. That changed, first to the Tabernacle in the wilderness, and then to the Temple that Shlomo built, as both were prescribed by God Himself. This is something that every Israeli was able to do and commanded to do before the Temple was destroyed. When the Temple was rebuilt after the captivity to Bavel and to Persia, they again followed the requirements of Torah and presented themselves as required by God. When Yeshua` said those words about rebuilding the Temple in three days, you MUST take a very close look at His words IN CONTEXT: John 2:19-22 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. KJV His words were purely a word choice that made an analogy to a building. The Greek word here is naon talking about the shrine itself; it's not the word hieron which speaks to the whole sacred enclosure. The word hieron comes from hieros which means "sacred" while "naos" refers merely to the structure. Since we are talking about Yeshua` a Jew who was talking to other Jews in Jerusalem, they were probably NOT talking in Greek. More likely than not, they were speaking in Hebrew or at least in Aramaic (the Syrian language so close to Hebrew but influenced by their closer proximity to Mesopotamia). The difference in Hebrew would be in the choice of the word "beit" (meaning "house") as opposed to "hagag" (meaning "sacred"). The bottom line is that Yeshua` was NOT re-defining "temple" to be His body! What He was saying was that His body was merely a "house!" Notice: He did not even grace them with an answer! THEY were so far off-base, that He didn't think it even worth a rebuttal! Furthermore, to say that this was leading up to the concept of "speaking figuratively of Himself and we accordingly are as living stones which make up the structure of the Church - which is a body and also is not a building" is quite a leap! It's almost as bad as the Jews' leap of assuming He was talking about the Herodian Temple! I didn't NEED to ask the question; I could have just focused on the origin of the phrase! Jude 24-25 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. KJV This short, general epistle, written by Y'hudah (transliterated into English as Judah, Judas, or Jude) brother of Ya`acov (transliterated into English as Jacob or James) is written this way in Greek: 24 Too de dunamenoo fulaxai autous aptaistous, kai steesai katenoopion tees doxees autou amoomous en agalliasei, 25 mono sofoo Theoo sooteeri heemoon, doxa kai megaloosunee, kratos kai exousia, kai nun kai eis pantas tous aioonas. Ameen. Breaking it down,... Too = To-the-[one-who] de = but dunamenoo = is-able fulaxai = to-guard autous = you aptaistous = not-stumbling kai = and steesai = to-stand katenoopion = down-in-sight tees = of-the doxees = glory; brightness; apparency autou = of-him; his amoomous = without-blemish en = in agalliasei = much-jumping-for-joy mono = to-only sofoo = wise Theoo = God sooteeri = Savior heemoon = of-us; our doxa = glory; brightness; apparency kai = and megaloosunee = greatness kratos = might; strength kai = and exousia = authority; privilege kai = and nun = now kai = and eis = into pantas = all tous = the aioonas = ages Ameen = Truth (a Hebrew word, by the way) Thus, to put it into perspective using the same wording... 24 But to the one who is able to guard you not stumbling and to stand [you] down in front of the brightness of him without blemish in much jumping for joy, 25 to [the] only wise God our Savior - brightness and greatness, strength and privilege and now and into all of the ages. Truth! This is not a present event; it's a FUTURE event! ... and it's LITERAL! Retrobyter

x0846 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/24/2008 7:20:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lapidoth quote: ORIGINAL: x0846 quote: ORIGINAL: bettymackII please type the CLEAR verse that states the church is not here during the tribulation.Thanks “Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” (Rev 19) You can't have a wedding without the bride and since the saints are the bride and they are ready it's clear they aren't in the tribulation period. There's many more verses that tell us the church will not go through the tribulation period, do you need more or is this good enough? Only the truth of Scripture can stand alone. The truth can and does stand alone. If there is a CLEARness in this one verse that the church is not here during the tribulation, I don't see it. There is a point and time that [the marriage of the Lamb] will truly come. This has nothing to do with the "rapture" as proof. We can read "INTO" the verse, but the verse does not declare it. exegesis = Scripture telling us what it means. isegesis = Us reading into the Scripture. Then please explain how Jesus can take His bride, the saints, in marraige while the saints are still on earth in the tribulation.

x0846 -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/24/2008 8:20:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy quote: ORIGINAL: chrystar quote: ORIGINAL: x0846 quote: ORIGINAL: bettymackII please type the CLEAR verse that states the church is not here during the tribulation.Thanks “Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” (Rev 19) You can't have a wedding without the bride and since the saints are the bride and they are ready it's clear they aren't in the tribulation period. There's many more verses that tell us the church will not go through the tribulation period, do you need more or is this good enough? X0864- That is wrong and dosent't follow logic- you ASSUME that Jesus has taken his bride away before the tribulation, he could very easily be talken about thoose who have survied the tribulation you cant use the same argument as proof of itself, why do you ASSUME that the saints that are ready, are in heaven and not on earth? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Well considering the fact that the marriage is taking place in heaven while at the same time the tribulation is taking place on earth should tell you that the saints couldn't possibly be on earth in the tribulation. That's logical. He isn't talking about those who were beheaded because they didn't worship the beast because they haven't been painted into the picture yet. First comes the marriage then comes Jesus with his saints/bride/army and everyone who is left on the earth is killed. Now comes the return of Christ with the souls of the one's who didn't take the mark and worship the beast and they will reign with Christ for a thousand years. Those souls are not part of the church/saints/bride. The saints when their body dies remain alive, the souls who didn't become saints before Jesus caught up His saints, before the tribulation, are dead and He brings them back to life to to reign with Him. Perhaps if you read Rev 19 & 20 you will understand it.

LoyalGypsy -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/24/2008 9:02:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Retrobyter quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint quote: ORIGINAL: Retrobyter To answer your question, "But when does Jesus present us faultless before the Father?[:(]" I will ask you one: When does the BRANCH finish the next Temple? Wrong question. Your question suggests Jesus will build the Millennium Temple when actually, He may only transform the third Temple which will be built. This is because the Millennium passages in Ezekiel describe a Temple with water coming out of its base, yet he also describes a Temple which John was told to measure and Ezekiel does write down what a man does measure in his heavenly vision of this future Temple. As the Temple will be built before the Midpoint of the one 'seven' and ostensibly during the first half when Israel enjoys some sense of peace, and the fact that man cannot have the type of water coming out of it which can heal the land as Ezekiel describes happening later - we're looking at two different types of Temples - but one which can have the same structure. However, when Jesus said that not only would the Herodian Temple be pulled down (which it was in A.D. 70) but that He would build it back up again in three days - Jesus was not describing a building of stone but speaking figuratively of Himself and we accordingly are as living stones which make up the structure of the Church - which is a body and also is not a building as the term has come to pass in our lexicon. So your quote of Zechariah 6:12-13 misses the mark in saying we have to go to a certain place to present ourselves to the Lord. But then again, there is much we disagree with at a fundamental level... so I don't expect to see this resolved either. I just want to add that there is a view which answers the question without asking a question which has no bearing. As such, my view does not oppose yours which suggests just a bipolar linear relationship; our views are askew: we don't even touch in three dimensional space. Shabbat shalom, Sinner-Saint! YOU say, "Wrong question." However, I see them as intimately linked! You see, before the Temple, before the Tabernacle, men came to present themselves before the LORD at the altars they set up to Him. That changed, first to the Tabernacle in the wilderness, and then to the Temple that Shlomo built, as both were prescribed by God Himself. This is something that every Israeli was able to do and commanded to do before the Temple was destroyed. When the Temple was rebuilt after the captivity to Bavel and to Persia, they again followed the requirements of Torah and presented themselves as required by God. When Yeshua` said those words about rebuilding the Temple in three days, you MUST take a very close look at His words IN CONTEXT: John 2:19-22 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. KJV His words were purely a word choice that made an analogy to a building. The Greek word here is naon talking about the shrine itself; it's not the word hieron which speaks to the whole sacred enclosure. The word hieron comes from hieros which means "sacred" while "naos" refers merely to the structure. Since we are talking about Yeshua` a Jew who was talking to other Jews in Jerusalem, they were probably NOT talking in Greek. More likely than not, they were speaking in Hebrew or at least in Aramaic (the Syrian language so close to Hebrew but influenced by their closer proximity to Mesopotamia). The difference in Hebrew would be in the choice of the word "beit" (meaning "house") as opposed to "hagag" (meaning "sacred"). The bottom line is that Yeshua` was NOT re-defining "temple" to be His body! What He was saying was that His body was merely a "house!" Notice: He did not even grace them with an answer! THEY were so far off-base, that He didn't think it even worth a rebuttal! Furthermore, to say that this was leading up to the concept of "speaking figuratively of Himself and we accordingly are as living stones which make up the structure of the Church - which is a body and also is not a building" is quite a leap! It's almost as bad as the Jews' leap of assuming He was talking about the Herodian Temple! I didn't NEED to ask the question; I could have just focused on the origin of the phrase! Jude 24-25 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. KJV This short, general epistle, written by Y'hudah (transliterated into English as Judah, Judas, or Jude) brother of Ya`acov (transliterated into English as Jacob or James) is written this way in Greek: 24 Too de dunamenoo fulaxai autous aptaistous, kai steesai katenoopion tees doxees autou amoomous en agalliasei, 25 mono sofoo Theoo sooteeri heemoon, doxa kai megaloosunee, kratos kai exousia, kai nun kai eis pantas tous aioonas. Ameen. Breaking it down,... Too = To-the-[one-who] de = but dunamenoo = is-able fulaxai = to-guard autous = you aptaistous = not-stumbling kai = and steesai = to-stand katenoopion = down-in-sight tees = of-the doxees = glory; brightness; apparency autou = of-him; his amoomous = without-blemish en = in agalliasei = much-jumping-for-joy mono = to-only sofoo = wise Theoo = God sooteeri = Savior heemoon = of-us; our doxa = glory; brightness; apparency kai = and megaloosunee = greatness kratos = might; strength kai = and exousia = authority; privilege kai = and nun = now kai = and eis = into pantas = all tous = the aioonas = ages Ameen = Truth (a Hebrew word, by the way) Thus, to put it into perspective using the same wording... 24 But to the one who is able to guard you not stumbling and to stand [you] down in front of the brightness of him without blemish in much jumping for joy, 25 to [the] only wise God our Savior - brightness and greatness, strength and privilege and now and into all of the ages. Truth! This is not a present event; it's a FUTURE event! ... and it's LITERAL! Retrobyter Greetings, How is it that it is not a current event?? I mean the transfiguration of Jesus and the request to build 3 tabernacles by the Apostles for Him (Jesus), Moses and Elijah In the vision on the mount of transfiguration..... is where Jesus reiterated to the disciples not to tell anyone of the vision, until He was raised form the dead, But was because they did not know what that meant at the time. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; 1…..and they believed the scripture, 2…..and the word which Jesus had said. quote: The bottom line is that Yeshua` was NOT re-defining "temple" to be His body! What He was saying was that His body was merely a "house!" Notice: He did not even grace them with an answer! THEY were so far off-base, that He didn't think it even worth a rebuttal! But you haven’t explained the scripture that they believed in verse 22 and in addition to the scripture they believed you haven’t explained the word which Jesus had said??? 1…..and they believed the scripture, 2…..and the word which Jesus had said. The occurrence in the context of the mount of transfiguration is that remembrance or revelation mentioned in verse 22 LG

tracydolls -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/26/2008 12:07:58 AM)
Deu 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; I believe we are going thru the tribulations. I'm not sure how much. Maybe this is putting it too simple, but here's my 2 cents. Most people I read in the Bible got "tested", went thru some things. I don't see where we can say we have really went thru anything, yet. Especially here in US. How? Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. We going thru the Tribulations. We gotta be "refined" in the fire. I'm praying for the strength to make it thru in patience.

LoyalGypsy -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/26/2008 7:01:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tracydolls Deu 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; I believe we are going thru the tribulations. I'm not sure how much. Maybe this is putting it too simple, but here's my 2 cents. Most people I read in the Bible got "tested", went thru some things. I don't see where we can say we have really went thru anything, yet. Especially here in US. How? Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. We going thru the Tribulations. We gotta be "refined" in the fire. I'm praying for the strength to make it thru in patience. Greetings, I beleive you may be mixing tribulation with the wrath of God. 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand. It says the sought again to seize Him, meaning there was another witness or another time when they sought, but Jesus escaped being captured or killed How did He escape through those crowds in plain day??? LG

Retrobyter -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/27/2008 12:24:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy quote: ORIGINAL: Retrobyter Shabbat shalom, Sinner-Saint! YOU say, "Wrong question." However, I see them as intimately linked! You see, before the Temple, before the Tabernacle, men came to present themselves before the LORD at the altars they set up to Him. That changed, first to the Tabernacle in the wilderness, and then to the Temple that Shlomo built, as both were prescribed by God Himself. This is something that every Israeli was able to do and commanded to do before the Temple was destroyed. When the Temple was rebuilt after the captivity to Bavel and to Persia, they again followed the requirements of Torah and presented themselves as required by God. When Yeshua` said those words about rebuilding the Temple in three days, you MUST take a very close look at His words IN CONTEXT: John 2:19-22 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. KJV His words were purely a word choice that made an analogy to a building. The Greek word here is naon talking about the shrine itself; it's not the word hieron which speaks to the whole sacred enclosure. The word hieron comes from hieros which means "sacred" while "naos" refers merely to the structure. Since we are talking about Yeshua` a Jew who was talking to other Jews in Jerusalem, they were probably NOT talking in Greek. More likely than not, they were speaking in Hebrew or at least in Aramaic (the Syrian language so close to Hebrew but influenced by their closer proximity to Mesopotamia). The difference in Hebrew would be in the choice of the word "beit" (meaning "house") as opposed to "hagag" (meaning "sacred"). The bottom line is that Yeshua` was NOT re-defining "temple" to be His body! What He was saying was that His body was merely a "house!" Notice: He did not even grace them with an answer! THEY were so far off-base, that He didn't think it even worth a rebuttal! Furthermore, to say that this was leading up to the concept of "speaking figuratively of Himself and we accordingly are as living stones which make up the structure of the Church - which is a body and also is not a building" is quite a leap! It's almost as bad as the Jews' leap of assuming He was talking about the Herodian Temple! I didn't NEED to ask the question; I could have just focused on the origin of the phrase! Jude 24-25 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. KJV This short, general epistle, written by Y'hudah (transliterated into English as Judah, Judas, or Jude) brother of Ya`acov (transliterated into English as Jacob or James) is written this way in Greek: 24 Too de dunamenoo fulaxai autous aptaistous, kai steesai katenoopion tees doxees autou amoomous en agalliasei, 25 mono sofoo Theoo sooteeri heemoon, doxa kai megaloosunee, kratos kai exousia, kai nun kai eis pantas tous aioonas. Ameen. Breaking it down,... Too = To-the-[one-who] de = but dunamenoo = is-able fulaxai = to-guard autous = you aptaistous = not-stumbling kai = and steesai = to-stand katenoopion = down-in-sight tees = of-the doxees = glory; brightness; apparency autou = of-him; his amoomous = without-blemish en = in agalliasei = much-jumping-for-joy mono = to-only sofoo = wise Theoo = God sooteeri = Savior heemoon = of-us; our doxa = glory; brightness; apparency kai = and megaloosunee = greatness kratos = might; strength kai = and exousia = authority; privilege kai = and nun = now kai = and eis = into pantas = all tous = the aioonas = ages Ameen = Truth (a Hebrew word, by the way) Thus, to put it into perspective using the same wording... 24 But to the one who is able to guard you not stumbling and to stand [you] down in front of the brightness of him without blemish in much jumping for joy, 25 to [the] only wise God our Savior - brightness and greatness, strength and privilege and now and into all of the ages. Truth! This is not a present event; it's a FUTURE event! ... and it's LITERAL! Retrobyter Greetings, How is it that it is not a current event?? I mean the transfiguration of Jesus and the request to build 3 tabernacles by the Apostles for Him (Jesus), Moses and Elijah In the vision on the mount of transfiguration..... is where Jesus reiterated to the disciples not to tell anyone of the vision, until He was raised from the dead, But was because they did not know what that meant at the time. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; 1…..and they believed the scripture, 2…..and the word which Jesus had said. quote: The bottom line is that Yeshua` was NOT re-defining "temple" to be His body! What He was saying was that His body was merely a "house!" Notice: He did not even grace them with an answer! THEY were so far off-base, that He didn't think it even worth a rebuttal! But you haven’t explained the scripture that they believed in verse 22 and in addition to the scripture they believed you haven’t explained the word which Jesus had said??? 1…..and they believed the scripture, 2…..and the word which Jesus had said. The occurrence in the context of the mount of transfiguration is that remembrance or revelation mentioned in verse 22 LG Shalom, LG. The reason I have for why this passage and that of the transfiguration were not then current events is not hard to follow: Have YOU been stood before the brightness of God? Did the transfiguration permanently transfigure Yeshua`? Did Moshe and Eliyahu remain? Did abodes get built for them? NO to all of these. Yeshua`s transfiguration was a FORETASTE of what was to come! It was NOT His actual second coming! As such, it was a VISION, a glimpse into what the future holds! When Yeshua` left, He took His LITERAL offer of the Kingdom WITH HIM! No King, no Kingdom! Isra'el rejected Him (except for the relatively few who were His talmidim); so, He rejected them...temporarily! Matt 23:37-39 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. KJV And, they WILL say it! When they do, Yeshua` WILL return. And, when He returns, He WILL reign in Yerushalayim, Isra'el! Now, when you were talking about "verse 22," the word which Yeshua` said TO THEM (the Jews) was that He would rise again after three days! The Scripture that He used to tell them this is the sign of Yonah found in Yonah (Jonah) 1:17: Jonah 1:17 17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. KJV Matt 12:38-41 38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. KJV It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that. Don't try to get so "hyperspiritual" that you miss the simple truths! Retrobyter

Lapidoth -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/27/2008 3:34:32 PM)
quote: considering the fact that the marriage is taking place in heaven while at the same time the tribulation is taking place on earth Got any scriptures to verify "the fact"? This is an "assumption" preached from many pulpits. Which in turn causes those in the pews to repeat an assumption as fact. Vine's Dictionary says the complete opposite. And we can find mountains of writings to agree with any stance we take, but what do the Scriptures really say? That's what we have to go by.

Sinner-Saint -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/27/2008 8:47:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: x0846 You can't have a wedding without the bride and since the saints are the bride and they are ready it's clear they aren't in the tribulation period. There's many more verses that tell us the church will not go through the tribulation period, do you need more or is this good enough? Then please explain how Jesus can take His bride, the saints, in marraige while the saints are still on earth in the tribulation. They came out of the Great Tribulation, and the Day of the Lord effectively ends it too. This happens during the one 'seven' which I think you're mistakenly calling the Tribulation Period. Once they are out, then the wedding can proceed. However, when the Great Multitude show up in Heaven before God's Wrath goes forth upon the earth, buring the tares in the field, the wedding must be put on hold until the martyred Saints are brought out from beneath the Altar (the second level of Heaven). So that Saints aren't on the earth when the wedding takes place in Heaven. But they did go through the Great Tribulation which occurs at the midpoint of the one 'seven' and goes on for some nebulous time until Jesus returns to rescue (steal) them.

Retrobyter -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/28/2008 12:33:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint quote: ORIGINAL: x0846 You can't have a wedding without the bride and since the saints are the bride and they are ready it's clear they aren't in the tribulation period. There's many more verses that tell us the church will not go through the tribulation period, do you need more or is this good enough? Then please explain how Jesus can take His bride, the saints, in marraige while the saints are still on earth in the tribulation. They came out of the Great Tribulation, and the Day of the Lord effectively ends it too. This happens during the one 'seven' which I think you're mistakenly calling the Tribulation Period. Once they are out, then the wedding can proceed. However, when the Great Multitude show up in Heaven before God's Wrath goes forth upon the earth, buring the tares in the field, the wedding must be put on hold until the martyred Saints are brought out from beneath the Altar (the second level of Heaven). So that Saints aren't on the earth when the wedding takes place in Heaven. But they did go through the Great Tribulation which occurs at the midpoint of the one 'seven' and goes on for some nebulous time until Jesus returns to rescue (steal) them. Shalom, Sinner-Saint. Oscar Meyer has a way with B-O-L-O-G-N-A! And, that's bologna, too! Your biggest problem with this interpretation is this weird concept of "heaven" you have! "The Altar [is] (the second level of Heaven)?" What's your proof for THAT garbage? How many levels does "Heaven" have, anyway? AND, what proof do you have for that? What ARE the various levels? You know, Milton was not inspired! Nor was Bosch or Dante! Be VERY careful what source(s) you are taking for your theological belief system! KISS (Keep It Simple, Saint!) is good advice. Theology should REFLECT the Scriptures, not force them into a mold! You really should get a good handle on what "heaven" is before forming theology around your concept. What are the Hebrew words and the Greek words that were translated "heaven?" What did they mean? Are there any Scripture references that we should look at when determining our definition and understanding of the term? I've said this before in another thread, but it bears repeating: When I first started to look into the definitions of "heaven," I felt that I should find three Greek words that corresponded to the three heavens that C. I. Scofield talks about in his notes on p. 1238 as an explanation of II Corinthians 12:1-2. He states flatly (and without a Bible reference) that the first heaven is “of clouds,” the second heaven is “of stars,” and the third heaven is “God’s abode.” That's NOT what I found! There are four main words in Greek that were translated as "heaven," heavens," "heavenlies," and "heavenly" These words are "ouranos," "ouranios," "mesouraneema," and "epouranios." "Ouranios" is the genitive form of "ouranos." "Mesouraneema" is a combination of "meso" meaning "middle" and "ouranos." "Epouranios" is a genitive form of the combination of "epi" meaning "above" or "upon" and "ouranos." I searched EVERY verse that contained one of these four, and NONE of these verses showed Scofield's idea of three heavens! (More to come....) Retrobyter

Sinner-Saint -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/28/2008 9:34:37 AM)
Shalom yourself - hmmph. Just because you look at something one way and can't see another doesn't mean it can't be seen in another fashion. You and I have gone over this before nicely, but now you're just being rude. Again, I have no problem with seeing "heaven" as sky, space, God's Realm. 3. However, in Scripture Paul says the he knew a man who had gone to the third Heaven of the presence of the Father. 2. The Martyred Saints are right beneath that presence below the Altar. In having the floor become like glass, they are visible. From their perspective, they have the original glass ceiling. 1. Jesus gathers the Elect from the ends of Heaven to be with Him in the presence of the Father. Since these Christians and other Saints (OT) are not with Him immediately upon death but must await the Resurrection of the Dead (John 5:25) and they were not martyred and so are not part of the 2nd level of Heaven, there is a first level of Heaven where the Dead in Christ go which as Jesus said on the Cross was Paradise: the place where Lazarus the beggar was. So just because you can't grasp what I'm saying doesn't mean it's not a valid point. However, it is all too common on this particular board for Christians to be dismissive of one another. I do not think that's how we should treat each other. We're not opposite each other: we're completely askew in our eschatotogies. I have no problem with that and for the most part I leave you alone. I do not come in to your conversations and say what you're posting is complete hogwash. I would appreciate it if you would do me the same favor.

tracydolls -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/28/2008 9:55:56 AM)
quote: Greetings, I beleive you may be mixing tribulation with the wrath of God. 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand. It says the sought again to seize Him, meaning there was another witness or another time when they sought, but Jesus escaped being captured or killed How did He escape through those crowds in plain day??? I don't quite understand what you are asking,Loyal. But I do know this. WE have not gone thru any tribulations. I just refuse to believe that all these self-professing Chrisitians are going to Heaven. That means 90% of America? Who have went thru nothing for their faith. There's no winnowing out or seperating of the tares or tribulations or anything like that.

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