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Retrobyter -> RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, (5/31/2008 12:36:21 AM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Timing timing timing...it's all about timing.
Here is where we disagree because I see the Church being here for the tribulation but not the wrath of God which is what occurs at the opening of the 7th seal. I see the 7th seal occurring late in the last week
My comments here are more that I generally present anymore because any discussion ends up in a draw and will until we can look back and see how things played out. [8|]
Bob
Shalom, Bob.
If I may be so bold as to "butt into another's conversation" as I've been accused of doing lately, timing is only part of the problem. Definitions of words and their usage in Scripture as well as the translation of those words from Greek (or Hebrew or Aramaic) into English (possibly through a great deal of other languages and time periods) are also to blame for innocent misconceptions and erroneous beliefs.
Now what I write to you, I write to others as well:
A simple Greek word like "ouranos" can be a BIG block in understanding for some people!
In Bible college, I'd been instructed that "context determines one's definiton of Greek words." Well, I'm not so sure about that. I have found NUMEROUS times when the definition of Greek words determines the understanding of the context! I have come to the conclusion that both are necessary parts to understanding what the author of a particular book was trying to convey, but I now believe that the definitions of the Greek words (for the NT) are more important than the contexts, provided that the definitions are based upon the etymologies of the words in light of the addition of prefixes and suffixes from other Greek words. The same is true for the Hebrew words as well. In both languages, context plays a role but etymology and families of words (i.e. a group of words based upon a common root word) are MUCH more important to the understanding of the word in question and the contextual passage in question.
What happens all to often, IMO, is that certain words are given carte blanche definitions that the contexts must stretch to support! There are several Greek words, for instance, that fall into this category: words like "ouranos," "aggelos," "harpazoo," and "ekkleesia," to name a few.
As I was saying, when I first started to look into the definitions of "heaven," for instance, I felt that I should find three Greek words that corresponded to the three heavens that C. I. Scofield talks about in his notes on p. 1238 of the Old Scofield Reference Bible as an explanation of II Corinthians 12:1-2. He states flatly (and without a Bible reference) that the first heaven is “of clouds,” the second heaven is “of stars,” and the third heaven is “God’s abode.” That's NOT what I found!
Using a Strong's Concordance, I looked up the word "heaven"--Y'know, for "third heaven" for 2 Cor. 12:1-2?-- as well as its family of words, including "heavens" and "heavenly" and "heavenlies," I found something amazing!
There are five main words in Greek that were translated as "heaven," heavens," "heavenlies," and/or "heavenly." These words are "ouranos," "ouranios," "ouranothen," "mesouraneema," and "epouranios." "Ouranios" is the genitive form of "ouranos." "Ouranothen" is the aorist, passive, participle form of "ouranos" meaning "from ouranos." "Mesouraneema" is a combination of "meso" meaning "middle" and "ouranos." "Epouranios" is a genitive form of the combination of "epi" meaning "above" or "upon" and "ouranos."
I searched EVERY verse that contained one of these five, and NONE of these verses showed Scofield's idea of three heavens! Assuming (as I did as a youngster) that the three heavens might correspond as "ouranos" = first heaven, "mesouranos" ("middle of ouranos") = second heaven, and "epouranos" ("above ouranos") = third heaven, I found these verses instead:
Rev 8:13
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
KJV
Rev 14:6
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
KJV
Rev 19:17
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
KJV
These are the only three verses in all of the Greek NT that use the word "mesouraneema." That's it! Now, one might assume that an angel can fly where Scofield said it was "of stars," but birds???!!! Looking up the definition in Strong's Concordance for the word "mesouraneema," he said it means "mid-sky," and this does sound more like where birds can fly--mid-atmosphere.
Using Englishman's Concordance for the Greek word "epouranios" (usually translated "heavenly" but sometimes translated "celestial" or "heavenly things" or "of things in heaven") you will only find 20 places where the word was used: (Matt. 18:35; John 3:12; I Cor. 15:40 [2x], 48 [2x], 49; Eph. 1:3, 20; 2:6; 3:10; 6:12; Phil. 2:10; 2 Tim. 4:18; Heb. 3:1; 6:4; 8:5; 9:23; 11:16; and 12:22) Among these, I Cor. 15:40 talks about "celestial bodies" just before talking about the sun, moon, and stars!
1 Cor 15:40-41
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
KJV
Thus, "epouranios," "above ouranos," must AT LEAST refer to Scofield's "second heaven = of stars."
In my study, God (and it HAD to be Him, IMO) led me to 2 Peter 3!
2 Peter 3:3-7
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
KJV
...
2 Peter 3:13
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV
In all three cases, the Greek word is "ouranoi," the plural of "ouranos." Now, number them historically or chronologically, and what do you get? You get this: the heavens and earth before the Flood were the first heavens and earth; the heavens and earth since the Flood up to the present and until the Fire sometime in the future are the second heavens and earth; and the heavens and earth which will be after the Fire, the new heavens and earth, will be the third heavens and earth!
In all of these verses, both of the 2 for "ouranothen," all 3 for "mesouraneema," all 6 for "ouranios," all 20 for "epouranios," and all 284 for "ouranos," I found NOTHING that demanded that "ouranos" be translated as anything other than "sky."
So, I came to the conclusion that Peter was a much better authority on Paul's "third heaven" than Scofield, and I scrapped Scofield's division!
It's not 1-2-3 "heavens" spatially; it's 1-2-3 "skies" CHRONOLOGICALLY!!! Thus, when Paul said he "knew a man" who had been "snatched away" to the "third heaven," he was not saying that "man" was taken way up beyond the stars; he was saying that "man" was taken away to the FUTURE! He was describing a VISION OF THE FUTURE NEW SKIES AND NEW EARTH!
This is in sync with the facts that (1) the New Jerusalem is described with all of the words that are commonly attributed to "heaven," and (2) that the New Jerusalem descends to the New Earth (Rev. 21:1,2)
So many verses come into a much clearer focus when you simply replace the word "heaven" with "sky," and where some confusion still exists, you will probably find that "heaven" was translated from one of the other four Greek words. Therefore, substitute one of the other phrases, and it will also fall into place.
Thus, the "rapture," also being one of these words and being translated from "harpazoo" ("snatch away" [not up, btw]), IS scriptural, BUT rather than asking WHEN it will occur, ask WHY will it occur!
Retrobyter
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