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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/28/2008 11:23:50 AM
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upNORTder
Posts: 218
Joined: 7/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
Greetings,
I beleive you may be mixing tribulation with the wrath of God.
39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.
It says the sought again to seize Him, meaning there was another witness or another time when they sought, but Jesus escaped being captured or killed
How did He escape through those crowds in plain day???
I don't quite understand what you are asking,Loyal. But I do know this. WE have not gone thru any tribulations.
I just refuse to believe that all these self-professing Chrisitians are going to Heaven. That means 90% of America?
Who have went thru nothing for their faith.
There's no winnowing out or seperating of the tares or tribulations or anything like that.
Are you saying that without the deed of going through the great tribulation, Christians have not earned their salvation?
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/28/2008 2:52:53 PM
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Coffee_Drinker
Posts: 109
Joined: 5/20/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
I don't quite understand what you are asking,Loyal. But I do know this. WE have not gone thru any tribulations.
I just refuse to believe that all these self-professing Chrisitians are going to Heaven. That means 90% of America?
Who have went thru nothing for their faith.
There's no winnowing out or seperating of the tares or tribulations or anything like that.
Those are good questions/statements tracydolls.
I have a question for you...
Do you go through tribulations in life itself? Have you ever been insulted or heard someone say they are agnostic or athiest and make insults to those that do believe in God?
I'm not going to say I had an easy or difficult life. I will say that if I have to go through the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl judgements in Revelation... I might just stand under the first Seal so I won't have to go through the second...
I wouldn't be too sure about that 90% figure either.
All professed Christians... raise your right hand!
_____________________________
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/28/2008 8:33:05 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2458
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Coffee_Drinker
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
I don't quite understand what you are asking,
Loyal.
But I do know this. WE have not gone thru any tribulations.
I just refuse to believe that all these self-professing Christians are going to Heaven. That means 90% of America?
Who have went thru nothing for their faith.
There's no winnowing out or separating of the tares or tribulations or anything like that.
Those are good questions/statements tracydolls.
I have a question for you...
Do you go through tribulations in life itself? Have you ever been insulted or heard someone say they are agnostic or atheist and make insults to those that do believe in God?
I'm not going to say I had an easy or difficult life. I will say that if I have to go through the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl judgments in Revelation... I might just stand under the first Seal so I won't have to go through the second...
I wouldn't be too sure about that 90% figure either.
All professed Christians... raise your right hand!
LOL!!
....I am a lefty, 
quote:
I might just stand under the first Seal so I won't have to go through the second...
Come on...now, no reason to lose you head,
tracydolls just refuses to believe that all these self-professing Christians are going to Heaven.
She has a point, how does one tell the difference; or where the heart was at the time of confession??
You know how one can tell when the rapture occurs?
…….Find a Church that makes it a point of concern to call you when your attendance has slacked off, and then put it to the test, take off a month and see if anyone calls,
So, when the rapture occurs....... no one will know you’re missing. 
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 5/28/2008 9:55:49 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/28/2008 10:14:15 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2458
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
Greetings,
I believe you may be mixing tribulation with the wrath of God.
39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.
It says the sought again to seize Him, meaning there was another witness or another time when they sought, but Jesus escaped being captured or killed
How did He escape through those crowds in plain day???
I don't quite understand what you are asking, Loyal.
But I do know this.
WE have not gone thru any tribulations.
Greetings,
quote:
WE have not gone thru any tribulations
We are using the singular tribulation, not tribulations!! The Root Word Etymology is different in the context in which it is being used)
The hour of testing mentioned in Revelation is not the same as the tribulation mentioned in Matt 24, which is in reference to Ro 2:5 - Show Context, and if we listen…. we see in verse 9 ……………….for 1 reason.
Testing is when God disappears from the scene; the pouring out His Spirit is to compromise being delivered up to tribulation (Matt 24) ...........and attributing God to doing that; “So as to test one by pouring out His Spirit”; ….is a major contradiction….
God does not pour out His Spirit to test!!!....and is a very carnal theology.
(To grasp that…take a peek at the book of Job)
Loyal Gypsy
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/29/2008 5:36:58 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
Are you saying that without the deed of going through the great tribulation, Christians have not earned their salvation?
Well for one, I don't think you can earn it. It's G-D's Grace. He decides. In His Word, He talks about the Great Tribulations. I don't think Christians will be raptured before they happen.
quote:
Do you go through tribulations in life itself? Have you ever been insulted or heard someone say they are agnostic or athiest and make insults to those that do believe in God?
Yes, I have went thru some tribulations. Nothing like what I read in the Bible. Of course at the time, they were the worst thing anybody in the world has ever went thru. The atheists on here so far have been respectful. So can't really use that. Sometimes it's the Christians...........
Loyal,
I hear ya dude. I do believe that G-D tests like he did Abraham with Isaac.
I will reread Job again.
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 5/29/2008 5:44:28 AM >
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/29/2008 6:12:04 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1175
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quote:
ORIGINAL: searcher1
There is two schools of thought on this....
One “school of thought” is truth straight from Scripture, and the other is false teaching.
Jesus lets us know exactly where His elect will be during the tribulation:
Matt 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Matt 24:27-31
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Please note:
• Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken...
• then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
• And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/29/2008 9:36:53 PM
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DarleneSchreiber
Posts: 169
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Please forgive me if this has already been covered but there's something that confuses me. During the tribulation, one must take the mark of the beast in order to buy, sell or trade (Rev. 13:15-17). If one refuses, he or she will be put to death. If the Christians (or the Church, if you like) are on earth during that time peroid, then who will be left to rapture?
Please explain...with references.
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/29/2008 9:53:52 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 500
Joined: 10/5/2006
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Your reference is in the post above yours from Jesus' Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24.
We won't be immediately eliminated en masse. Some of us will be prepared.
Jesus said this time is shortened so that all the Elect will not be eliminated (killed by martyrdom or starvation/exposure).
So some of the Elect will be left to see Jesus come on the clouds to Rapture them. In fact, according to Paul, the Great Tribulation is exactly why he says just that - that they are still alive and are left - in 1Th 4:17.
But you don't have to "make it" to the end to "make it." The Dead in Christ are raised first. In fact, that is why Paul says those who see Jesus coming on the clouds, see Him coming with the Holy (ones): the Saints, i.e. Elect in 1Th 3:13.
Furthermore, if you are martyred during the Great Tribulation (or even before) you have a greater reward awaiting you in addition to eternal life: a crown.
< Message edited by Sinner-Saint -- 5/29/2008 10:01:10 PM >
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/30/2008 4:38:29 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 59
Joined: 12/9/2007
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It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number.
The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.
The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.
Revelation 9:14-21
The third of mankind not killed by the 200 million refuse to repent and turn from their evil ways. So tell me...where is the church - the body of Christ - mentioned in the last two verses of this passage?
Aside from the "elect" (the 144,000 sanctified by the mark of the Lord), there are only two other groups mentioned during this period of The Great Tribulation: the dead and the unrepentant. No mention of the body of Christ at all here.
Looking back, there is mention of the saints taken out of the "great tribulation" (chapter 7) but these are taken out before the 7th seal is opened. After the 7th seal, there are 7 trumpet judgments (5, 6, and 7 of which are prefaced by the angel saying "Woe, woe, woe" to the inhabitants of the earth) then the 7 bowl judgments.
So while the "great tribulation" is mentioned in concert with the first 6 seals, the great multitude who washed their robes are in heaven at the "sealing" of the 144,000 and before the 7th seal is opened. The remainder of the judgments (7th seal, 7 trumpets and 7 bowls) are reserved for those remaining on the earth after the saints are taken up.
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 5/30/2008 4:59:52 AM >
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/30/2008 9:28:17 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1974
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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quote:
So while the "great tribulation" is mentioned in concert with the first 6 seals, the great multitude who washed their robes are in heaven at the "sealing" of the 144,000 and before the 7th seal is opened. The remainder of the judgments (7th seal, 7 trumpets and 7 bowls) are reserved for those remaining on the earth after the saints are taken up.
Amen Stromcrow...you got that part right, now please tell us when the 7th seal occurs. 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/30/2008 11:34:20 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 59
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quote:
Amen Stromcrow...you got that part right, now please tell us when the 7th seal occurs.
I believe we're living during the time of the 5th seal now, which is why I believe the Lord could return at any time. Open up one Bible to Matthew 24 and read from verse 3 through verse 44. Open a second Bible to Revelation 6 and compare what Jesus says in Matthew 24 are "the beginning of birth pains" with the first 5 seals.
I believe "the beginning of birth pains" is happening right before our eyes: war, famine, pestilence, persecution and the wanton slaughter of both Jew and Christian are already happening right now, such as "the world has never seen before" because of our ability to broadcast news from anywhere on the globe.
Look now at Matthew 24:29: 29-30:
"Immediately after the distress of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
And compare this passage with the following from Revelation 6:12-17:
I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"
Now look at Matthew 24:31:
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
And compare with Revelation 7:1-3:
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God."
Revelation 4-8 discusses the sealing with the mark of God the 144,000 "elect" from the 12 tribes of Israel. Then, in verse 9 we see the last mention of the church - the Body of Christ - until much later in Revelation:
Revelation 7:9-17
After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: "Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!"
Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"
I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
Only after all this happens: the beginning of birth pains, the sealing of the 144,000 and the taking up of those who have "washed their robes in the blood of the lamb" (those who accepted Christ's death as a covering for their sins), then will the 7th seal be opened. Everything up to this point - including the taking up or "rapture" of the saints, occurs in the first six seals.
Revelation 8 begins with the opening of the 7th seal and the "silence in heaven for about half an hour" and then the wrath of God is unleashed on a sinful and unbelieving world.
In conclusion, then, I believe we are living in the time of the 5th seal: the time just before Christ returns to call out His church at a time when the world is seeing wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, famine, pestilence (plague) and at a time when the gospel is being preached to all nations and when Christians the world over are facing persecution and death. This is also a time of a "great falling away" as Jesus had predicted, in Matthew 24.
The next prophetic event to occur is the 6th seal: the great earthquake, the darkening of the heavens (sun moon and stars), the return of the Lord on the clouds, the calling out of the saints from God's wrath and the sealing of the 144,000 (which I believe will happen concurrently) then the 7th seal - the pouring out of God's wrath - will occur. The wrath of God is indicated by the 7 trumpet judgments and the 7 bowl judgments during which the church - the body of Christ on earth - is never mentioned once.
As Jesus said in Matthew 24, we don't know when He will return so we must be ready.
Well, there you have it. Call it what you want: pre-trib or mid-trib, doesn't matter to me. I prefer to call the rapture "pre-wrath." I just believe the church is not destined for God's wrath, but for salvation.
Just my $.02.
P.S. Compare Joel 2 with Matthew 24 and Revelation 6.
That's all for now.
< Message edited by Stormcrow -- 5/30/2008 12:36:01 PM >
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/30/2008 12:15:48 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 59
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I realize my last post was a little long, so let me try to lay out - in summary - the timetable of events as I see them based on Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 & 7:
Specifically, I believe we're in the time of the 5th seal now, what Christ referred to as "the beginning of birth pains." The opening of the 6th seal will cause the sun, moon and stars to be darkened and a great earthquake (Joel 2, Matthew 24, Revelation 6). At this point, several things will happen in rapid succession (if not concurrently):
1. The darkening of the sun, moon and stars and the great earthquake will occur.
2. The Lord will return on the clouds in power and great glory to summon his church to Him in the air to be with Him, as men's hearts hearts will begin to fail them for fear of the coming wrath.
3. To summon the elect (the 144,000) from the ends of the earth and return them to Israel.
Then the 7th seal will be opened and heaven is silent for a short time (half an hour as John writes) before the 7 trumpet and 7 bowl judgments begin.
The church is never mentioned as being on earth at any time during this time of the wrath of God (the "wrath judgments.")
Hope that summarizes my view a little better.
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/30/2008 1:07:05 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1974
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From: Kansas
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Well Stromcrow, we know from 2 Th 2 that the 7th seal cannot be opened until the Antichrist sets in the Temple. Since this event cannot happen until the middle of the last week and since we don’t have a Temple yet, I guess it is not going to happen tomorrow.
Regarding the first five seals, I can make an argument either way but in my heart I don’t think they have occurred yet. When they do they could happen pretty fast, such as a major war in the Middle East…something other than just Hezbollah and Israel that would allow a consolidation of power. A situation that would allow world government or the Antichrist to emerge..
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/30/2008 1:33:08 PM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 59
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"For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."
II Thes. 2:7-8
The one taken out of the way? Personally speaking, I believe this is the church raptured at the opening of the 6th seal. Others have interpreted this to be the Holy Spirit. In any event, the peace treaty that the Anti-Christ ushers in with Israel will probably lead to the rebuilding of the Temple, only for him to be seated in it.
The period of the 5 seals - I believe - corresponds to the 69 weeks in Daniel. The 70th week is the one I don't believe Christians will be here to see, including the revelation of the AC.
IMHO.
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/30/2008 1:42:13 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1974
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Timing timing timing...it's all about timing.
Here is where we disagree because I see the Church being here for the tribulation but not the wrath of God which is what occurs at the opening of the 7th seal. I see the 7th seal occurring late in the last week
My comments here are more that I generally present anymore because any discussion ends up in a draw and will until we can look back and see how things played out. 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/30/2008 3:03:11 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3614
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Timing timing timing...it's all about timing.
Here is where we disagree because I see the Church being here for the tribulation but not the wrath of God which is what occurs at the opening of the 7th seal. I see the 7th seal occurring late in the last week
My comments here are more that I generally present anymore because any discussion ends up in a draw and will until we can look back and see how things played out.
Bob
LOL. Ain't that the truth?
I was guessing you had come to the same conclusion I did on these boards. lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/30/2008 4:39:10 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3614
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Coffee_Drinker
Well... ya'll can look at it his way too...
We are going to find out the sequence of events in "end-time prophecy" eventually anyway. As for now, keep on discussing the issue and differences of opinion... I enjoy all this free entertainment.
LOL.
I have some set views, but not in stone.
I think we are going to find out we're all wrong if we see it happen.
I'm still simmering some things so may have a more detailed view later.
How much later? Don't know that as I'm going through the entire Bible
again right now. Finished most the OT, still a couple three books to go. lol.
Then we'll tackle the NT again with fresher insights and maybe come up with
something on the Revelations.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/30/2008 8:10:34 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1974
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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quote:
I was guessing you had come to the same conclusion I did on these boards.
Yep Lap...I want to learn, not beat dead horses.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Retrobyter - 5/30/2008 10:44:38 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 407
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: savedforgod
Retrobyter,
I take it you agree with my response here,
http://forums.christianity.com/m_3460524/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#3460524
Amen.
Shalom, savedforgod.
As I believed I answered in detail, for the most part, YES!
Retrobyter
_____________________________
God will never abolish His Torah; He merely sent His Son to COMPLETE it so we aren't FORCED to keep it! (It's still a good idea, however.)
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/31/2008 12:36:21 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 407
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Timing timing timing...it's all about timing.
Here is where we disagree because I see the Church being here for the tribulation but not the wrath of God which is what occurs at the opening of the 7th seal. I see the 7th seal occurring late in the last week
My comments here are more that I generally present anymore because any discussion ends up in a draw and will until we can look back and see how things played out.
Bob
Shalom, Bob.
If I may be so bold as to "butt into another's conversation" as I've been accused of doing lately, timing is only part of the problem. Definitions of words and their usage in Scripture as well as the translation of those words from Greek (or Hebrew or Aramaic) into English (possibly through a great deal of other languages and time periods) are also to blame for innocent misconceptions and erroneous beliefs.
Now what I write to you, I write to others as well:
A simple Greek word like "ouranos" can be a BIG block in understanding for some people!
In Bible college, I'd been instructed that "context determines one's definiton of Greek words." Well, I'm not so sure about that. I have found NUMEROUS times when the definition of Greek words determines the understanding of the context! I have come to the conclusion that both are necessary parts to understanding what the author of a particular book was trying to convey, but I now believe that the definitions of the Greek words (for the NT) are more important than the contexts, provided that the definitions are based upon the etymologies of the words in light of the addition of prefixes and suffixes from other Greek words. The same is true for the Hebrew words as well. In both languages, context plays a role but etymology and families of words (i.e. a group of words based upon a common root word) are MUCH more important to the understanding of the word in question and the contextual passage in question.
What happens all to often, IMO, is that certain words are given carte blanche definitions that the contexts must stretch to support! There are several Greek words, for instance, that fall into this category: words like "ouranos," "aggelos," "harpazoo," and "ekkleesia," to name a few.
As I was saying, when I first started to look into the definitions of "heaven," for instance, I felt that I should find three Greek words that corresponded to the three heavens that C. I. Scofield talks about in his notes on p. 1238 of the Old Scofield Reference Bible as an explanation of II Corinthians 12:1-2. He states flatly (and without a Bible reference) that the first heaven is “of clouds,” the second heaven is “of stars,” and the third heaven is “God’s abode.” That's NOT what I found!
Using a Strong's Concordance, I looked up the word "heaven"--Y'know, for "third heaven" for 2 Cor. 12:1-2?-- as well as its family of words, including "heavens" and "heavenly" and "heavenlies," I found something amazing!
There are five main words in Greek that were translated as "heaven," heavens," "heavenlies," and/or "heavenly." These words are "ouranos," "ouranios," "ouranothen," "mesouraneema," and "epouranios." "Ouranios" is the genitive form of "ouranos." "Ouranothen" is the aorist, passive, participle form of "ouranos" meaning "from ouranos." "Mesouraneema" is a combination of "meso" meaning "middle" and "ouranos." "Epouranios" is a genitive form of the combination of "epi" meaning "above" or "upon" and "ouranos."
I searched EVERY verse that contained one of these five, and NONE of these verses showed Scofield's idea of three heavens! Assuming (as I did as a youngster) that the three heavens might correspond as "ouranos" = first heaven, "mesouranos" ("middle of ouranos") = second heaven, and "epouranos" ("above ouranos") = third heaven, I found these verses instead:
Rev 8:13
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
KJV
Rev 14:6
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
KJV
Rev 19:17
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
KJV
These are the only three verses in all of the Greek NT that use the word "mesouraneema." That's it! Now, one might assume that an angel can fly where Scofield said it was "of stars," but birds???!!! Looking up the definition in Strong's Concordance for the word "mesouraneema," he said it means "mid-sky," and this does sound more like where birds can fly--mid-atmosphere.
Using Englishman's Concordance for the Greek word "epouranios" (usually translated "heavenly" but sometimes translated "celestial" or "heavenly things" or "of things in heaven") you will only find 20 places where the word was used: (Matt. 18:35; John 3:12; I Cor. 15:40 [2x], 48 [2x], 49; Eph. 1:3, 20; 2:6; 3:10; 6:12; Phil. 2:10; 2 Tim. 4:18; Heb. 3:1; 6:4; 8:5; 9:23; 11:16; and 12:22) Among these, I Cor. 15:40 talks about "celestial bodies" just before talking about the sun, moon, and stars!
1 Cor 15:40-41
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
KJV
Thus, "epouranios," "above ouranos," must AT LEAST refer to Scofield's "second heaven = of stars."
In my study, God (and it HAD to be Him, IMO) led me to 2 Peter 3!
2 Peter 3:3-7
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
KJV
...
2 Peter 3:13
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV
In all three cases, the Greek word is "ouranoi," the plural of "ouranos." Now, number them historically or chronologically, and what do you get? You get this: the heavens and earth before the Flood were the first heavens and earth; the heavens and earth since the Flood up to the present and until the Fire sometime in the future are the second heavens and earth; and the heavens and earth which will be after the Fire, the new heavens and earth, will be the third heavens and earth!
In all of these verses, both of the 2 for "ouranothen," all 3 for "mesouraneema," all 6 for "ouranios," all 20 for "epouranios," and all 284 for "ouranos," I found NOTHING that demanded that "ouranos" be translated as anything other than "sky."
So, I came to the conclusion that Peter was a much better authority on Paul's "third heaven" than Scofield, and I scrapped Scofield's division!
It's not 1-2-3 "heavens" spatially; it's 1-2-3 "skies" CHRONOLOGICALLY!!! Thus, when Paul said he "knew a man" who had been "snatched away" to the "third heaven," he was not saying that "man" was taken way up beyond the stars; he was saying that "man" was taken away to the FUTURE! He was describing a VISION OF THE FUTURE NEW SKIES AND NEW EARTH!
This is in sync with the facts that (1) the New Jerusalem is described with all of the words that are commonly attributed to "heaven," and (2) that the New Jerusalem descends to the New Earth (Rev. 21:1,2)
So many verses come into a much clearer focus when you simply replace the word "heaven" with "sky," and where some confusion still exists, you will probably find that "heaven" was translated from one of the other four Greek words. Therefore, substitute one of the other phrases, and it will also fall into place.
Thus, the "rapture," also being one of these words and being translated from "harpazoo" ("snatch away" [not up, btw]), IS scriptural, BUT rather than asking WHEN it will occur, ask WHY will it occur!
Retrobyter
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God will never abolish His Torah; He merely sent His Son to COMPLETE it so we aren't FORCED to keep it! (It's still a good idea, however.)
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/31/2008 12:53:29 AM
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Stormcrow
Posts: 59
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline
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I'm not dogmatic about this, mind you. I don't know how it's all going to shake out, but I do know who wins.
Thanks for the feedback.
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