|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/29/2008 10:02:43 PM
|
|
|
isaacsmom
Posts: 2057
Joined: 12/2/2005
Status: offline
|
Church differences -- if it's a denominational difference (music, eschatology to a certain degree, like Ryanne stated) and not something essential to the doctrine of salvation, then we could most likely agree to disagree. If it were a major doctrinal issue, than we wouldn't join. We might attend, but not join. We had this come up a couple of years ago when we were searching for a church, we found one we really enjoyed but there was a doctinal issue -- hubby and I would've had to have been "re-baptized" into the denomination. We did not believe in the principle of being re-baptized in this particular case, so we did not join.
< Message edited by isaacsmom -- 6/29/2008 11:15:20 PM >
_____________________________
<<< My littlest punkin'
*~*~*Rachel*~*~*
pirtlefarm.blogspot.com
Beware of posing as a profound person -- God became a baby. ~Oswald Chambers
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/29/2008 10:07:31 PM
|
|
|
PrincessDonna
Posts: 10187
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Cow country, Upstate NY
Status: online
|
I might attend a church I did not completely agree with doctrinally, depending on the issue. I would not join though.
_____________________________
He fulfills the desires of those who fear Him;
He hears their cry and saves them.
The Lord watches over all who love him,
but all the wicked He will destroy.
~Psalm 145:19-20~
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/29/2008 10:27:55 PM
|
|
|
Sideways
Posts: 3934
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: isaacsmom
we found one we really enjoyed but there was a doctinal issue -- hubby and I would've had to have been "re-baptized" into the denomination. We did not believe in the principle of being re-baptized in this particular case, so we did not join.
That would bother me, too, unless the individual felt a personal call from God to do so. I've asked others in my area (Baptist country) how they would feel about someone like my son, baptized at 2 weeks old, and most reasonable, intelligent people say that they believe in one baptism, and leave it up to the individual to decide if they feel compelled by God to baptize again.
My husband was raised Lutheran, and he actually had a Baptist group nearby that put serious time and money into evangelizing to non-baptist Christians, like him. I had reassure him that most Baptists are not that arrogant as to believe that Lutherans are just as lost as a non-Christian.
Actually, I would not join a church where I felt uncomfortable worshiping. While I respect that people take certain things like speaking in tongues and being slain in the spirit very seriously, it would make me personally incredibly uncomfortable to be in such a worship atmosphere.
dH's church is kinda dead sometimes, so someday I hope to find a happy medium.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/30/2008 12:21:02 AM
|
|
|
VisitorinWaiting
Posts: 656
Status: offline
|
I haven't caught up on the conversation...will do that tomorrow...but just wanted to quickly give an answer to the question that had been posted here, or so I read...
I would not join or even regularly attend a church that's beliefs were different from mine. Case in point: A friend of mine told me that his pastor had given he and his wife such and such direction, but they were going to do something else. It was along the lines of roles in the home. My thought was, "Why do you continue to go there, sit under this man as your shepherd, but do not follow as he leads?" If I disagreed, on an issue even as "non-monumental" as this, I wouldn't continue to stay there. Another case in point: A friend visited my church recently, listened the message, and then came to me and said, "Do you believe that too?" as in a doctrinal point my pastor was giving. I said, "Uh, yeah." If I didn't, I would go somewhere where I did believe what the pastor was saying. I just couldn't imagine sitting in the pew week after week listening to someone that I disagreed with more than I agreed with.... I understand for those trying to find a church, but for those that have chosen a church--either member or regular attendee--I just don't understand why you'd sit and listen to what you'd consider "wrong" on an ongoing basis...
_____________________________
Hebrews 11:13,16 "...They said they were like visitors and strangers on earth...they were waiting for a better country, a heavenly country." (NCV)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/30/2008 4:23:55 AM
|
|
|
manda59
Posts: 6162
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
That would bother me, too, unless the individual felt a personal call from God to do so. I've asked others in my area (Baptist country) how they would feel about someone like my son, baptized at 2 weeks old, and most reasonable, intelligent people say that they believe in one baptism, and leave it up to the individual to decide if they feel compelled by God to baptize again.
I was "baptised" as an infant, but personally decided, when I became a Christian, that that actually wasn't a baptism, as I'd had no say in the matter. So for me, my baptism happened when I was 23 - and for me it's the first and only time I've been baptised.
quote:
My husband was raised Lutheran, and he actually had a Baptist group nearby that put serious time and money into evangelizing to non-baptist Christians, like him. I had reassure him that most Baptists are not that arrogant as to believe that Lutherans are just as lost as a non-Christian.
I've never even heard of that in the UK.
quote:
Actually, I would not join a church where I felt uncomfortable worshiping. While I respect that people take certain things like speaking in tongues and being slain in the spirit very seriously, it would make me personally incredibly uncomfortable to be in such a worship atmosphere.
You actually appear to be generalising about what it's like to be in a church where those things happen. Our church has lively but orderly worship - on average someone speaks in tongues perhaps once a month, and it's on their own and there is then an interpretation. We sometimes have people come forward for prayer after the service, and sometimes they go out in the Spirit, so someone stands behind them to catch them just in case. Probably out of 20 people getting prayed for, just one or two go out in the Spirit. It's not a highly emotionally charged atmosphere, but very ordered and "natural".
_____________________________
"Manda is right"
mvic, January 2009
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/30/2008 8:30:40 AM
|
|
|
lexie
Posts: 2959
Joined: 6/27/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline
|
I joined Dh's church shortly before we were married. There were some doctrine things in his church that I didn't know or believe from the church I was in before, but once he was able to explain it to me biblically, I was able to follow it.
There are still small things in the church that I don't agree with, but it doesn't get in the way of worship for me. I have yet to actually sit in a church where I agree with everything.
As for feeling that you may be uncomfortable in certain worship atmospheres, I'd be careful to truly decide on it before in that situation. I thought I would be uncomfortable with things like tongues and slain in the spirit, and I was the first time I was in it, but as time went on, and I understood why it was being done, my discomfort went away.
_____________________________
I want to be more than an ordinary servant.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/30/2008 9:05:59 AM
|
|
|
Sideways
Posts: 3934
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
I was "baptised" as an infant, but personally decided, when I became a Christian, that that actually wasn't a baptism, as I'd had no say in the matter. So for me, my baptism happened when I was 23 - and for me it's the first and only time I've been baptised.
Certainly for you then I would say it was quite right and proper for you to choose a believer's baptism at 23. I have no problems with that. I would have a problem with any church telling my son that in order for him to be a part of their membership he had to be baptized again because his first one "wasn't real". I would strongly discourage him from joining such an arrogant church.
And as far as speaking in tongues and being slain in the spirit, I've never actually attended a service like what you described. Most of the ones I was thinking of were rather out of control, and there was substantial peer pressure to speak in tongues or fall over in the spirit.
But I wasn't bashing those things, because you seemed to be getting quite defensive about it. I respect those things as an important part of many Christians' walk. I just have almost no experience with it (except for visiting a church or seeing a service like that of TV), and because it's not what I'm used to, it would make me very uncomfortable.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/30/2008 9:36:12 AM
|
|
|
manda59
Posts: 6162
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
I have no problems with that. I would have a problem with any church telling my son that in order for him to be a part of their membership he had to be baptized again because his first one "wasn't real". I would strongly discourage him from joining such an arrogant church.
I personally cannot see it as arrogant IMO for a church to want its members to have believed before they were baptised, as opposed to believing "by proxy".
quote:
But I wasn't bashing those things, because you seemed to be getting quite defensive about it. I respect those things as an important part of many Christians' walk. I just have almost no experience with it (except for visiting a church or seeing a service like that of TV), and because it's not what I'm used to, it would make me very uncomfortable.
Not defensive, it just seemed that you were perhaps throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I was *very* uncomfortable the first time I went to a meeting like that. It was a Charismatic Renewal service held in an Anglican Church, and I chose to sit in the seat right next to an ancient stone wall and pressed myself against it, arms firmly pinned to my sides, throughout the whole service.
Next time I went though, it got a little easier because it dawned on me that the problem lay within me, in my judging of other believers. The minute I stopped watching them, and focussed on God, the discomfort went.
There are still times when I am in church and things are said/done which I don't feel are of God. There was one Renewal meeting that I was at, when a whole family stood up to each give their testimonies. The minute they did, I felt shivery and sick, and my legs stood me up and took me outside. That was the first time I remember God telling me He wanted to give me the gift of discernment. I wouldn't tolerate being in a church where everyone was speaking in tongues at the same time (singing in tongues ie singing in the Spirit, yes, but not speaking); as for the falling down, it would depend on who was leading and how I felt about it at the time.
_____________________________
"Manda is right"
mvic, January 2009
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/30/2008 10:38:01 AM
|
|
|
Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 4871
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2
quote:
I would have a problem with any church telling my son that in order for him to be a part of their membership he had to be baptized again because his first one "wasn't real". I would strongly discourage him from joining such an arrogant church.
but if you see infant baptism as more of a "baby dedication" then why would it be bad/wrong of a church to "require" a believers baptism of their members, including your son who technically never was baptized, just dedicated. Seems like a slight double standard there. Either it is a baptism or it isn't...if it is just a dedication with water thrown in then to me he would still need to choose on his own about his own beliefs with submersion baptism later in life when he was old enough to choose for himself.
I agree. I don't understand how being baptized as an infant could possibly count as a believers baptism. It's an outward proclamation of the decision to walk with the Lord, a *choice* that you have made. I really doubt that any 2 month old baby is making a conscious decision to be a Christian. But I have issues with infant baptism anyway. Does someone have scriptural references that back it up? Because everything I have seen on baptism relates to an adult making that decision.
I do not think it is a matter of salvation though, or that you should have to be baptized within the denomination for it to "count". I do understand a denomination wanting a voting member to have been baptized and I would agree with them requiring it as an adult.
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/30/2008 12:02:47 PM
|
|
|
VisitorinWaiting
Posts: 656
Status: offline
|
quote:
I agree. I don't understand how being baptized as an infant could possibly count as a believers baptism.
I was just about to ask this question. How can it be considered baptism if being baptized is an outward symbol of what has happened on the inside? Infants do not know about what can happen inside, and do not understand what baptism means...so I just wonder how it can be considered a baptism.
I had some friends who used to argue this with me giving me Bible verses that said "be baptized and be saved" in that order, so they understood it to mean that you had to be baptized before you were saved, so they did infant baptisms to lead the children to be saved at an early age...??? 
_____________________________
Hebrews 11:13,16 "...They said they were like visitors and strangers on earth...they were waiting for a better country, a heavenly country." (NCV)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/30/2008 12:08:01 PM
|
|
|
Sideways
Posts: 3934
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2
but if you see infant baptism as more of a "baby dedication" then why would it be bad/wrong of a church to "require" a believers baptism of their members, including your son who technically never was baptized, just dedicated. Seems like a slight double standard there. Either it is a baptism or it isn't...if it is just a dedication with water thrown in then to me he would still need to choose on his own about his own beliefs with submersion baptism later in life when he was old enough to choose for himself.
For me, it holds the same meaning and power as a baby dedication. If my son, by faith, lays claim to the baptism of his youth, then that is all he needs and will ever need.
When he chooses to make confirmation, then he will stand before the church and in his own words proclaim his faith, proclaim his beliefs and lay claim to his baptism. That to me, holds to the same power and meaning as a believer's baptism.
I don't necessarily see that an infant baptism is the same as a believer's baptism, and I would not choose the path of infant baptism/confirmation. But I understand why they believe what they believe; I've taken the time to hold many conversations with learned Lutheran men. And I respect their path, even if I do not necessarily follow it myself.
If a denomination only holds respect for their way of doing things, and asks my son to turn his back on the church of his father, when he does not feel called to do so himself, then that is not the church for him.
While I believe that only Christ can lead to Heaven and God the Father, I do not believe it is the right of any Christian denomination to turn against another denomination by creating unnecessary stumbling blocks. Since a denomination believes that only they are correct, and hold themselves above all other Christians, then that is arrogance, and not a church I would counsel my son to give his loyalty to.
And yes, they do have scriptural basis for infant baptism. I have studied them, but I disagree with the Lutheran interpretation of those verses.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/30/2008 12:24:08 PM
|
|
|
manda59
Posts: 6162
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
If a denomination only holds respect for their way of doing things, and asks my son to turn his back on the church of his father, when he does not feel called to do so himself, then that is not the church for him.
Actually it isn't just a single denomination's way of doing things - it's Baptist, Free Evangelical, Pentecostal, Non-Denominational, AOG ........... Every one of those is going to want someone to have been baptised as an adult if they wanted to become a member. There may be more (Reformed?) - those were the only ones I could think of right away.
quote:
While I believe that only Christ can lead to Heaven and God the Father, I do not believe it is the right of any Christian denomination to turn against another denomination by creating unnecessary stumbling blocks. Since a denomination believes that only they are correct, and hold themselves above all other Christians, then that is arrogance, and not a church I would counsel my son to give his loyalty to.
If I, as one baptised by immersion as an adult, wanted to join the Lutheran church, would my adult baptism be enough for me to enter into membership?
_____________________________
"Manda is right"
mvic, January 2009
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/30/2008 12:29:35 PM
|
|
|
Sideways
Posts: 3934
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
If I, as one baptised by immersion as an adult, wanted to join the Lutheran church, would my adult baptism be enough for me to enter into membership?
Absolutely! Adults are baptized in the Lutheran church all the time. And if you were baptized in a different denomination, then that would be fine, too.
All adults attend a membership class where the Pastor talks about Lutheran doctrine, but that's just so you know what you're getting into.
Like I said, if a church required my son to be "re-baptized" as an adult, when he did not feel called to do so, then obviously, that is not the church for him. And I would strongly advise him against being pressured into such a false act.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/30/2008 12:41:00 PM
|
|
|
PrincessDonna
Posts: 10187
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Cow country, Upstate NY
Status: online
|
quote:
Like I said, if a church required my son to be "re-baptized" as an adult, when he did not feel called to do so, then obviously, that is not the church for him. And I would strongly advise him against being pressured into such a false act.
I can agree with this, and I do not believe in infant baptism. Any church that would put pressure on someone to be baptized instead of letting the Holy Spirit do His job is not one I would want to be involved with. Baptism is not a salvation issue, IMO. I do think any church can hold that as a standard required for membership though, and have no problem with that, so long as it is not required for fellowship, which is far more Biblical than membership anyway...but that's another story.
Brian went 3 years (I think...) between being saved and being baptized. He just isn't an "in the spotlight" person, and it took him a while to work up to it. I am glad no one in our church (including me!) pressured him and he chose it in his time. We became members of the church another 2-3 years after that.
_____________________________
He fulfills the desires of those who fear Him;
He hears their cry and saves them.
The Lord watches over all who love him,
but all the wicked He will destroy.
~Psalm 145:19-20~
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/30/2008 1:03:43 PM
|
|
|
manda59
Posts: 6162
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
Absolutely! Adults are baptized in the Lutheran church all the time. And if you were baptized in a different denomination, then that would be fine, too.
Would I need to be confirmed in the Lutheran church or would my baptism in another church cover that too?
_____________________________
"Manda is right"
mvic, January 2009
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/30/2008 1:12:46 PM
|
|
|
Sideways
Posts: 3934
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
Absolutely! Adults are baptized in the Lutheran church all the time. And if you were baptized in a different denomination, then that would be fine, too.
Would I need to be confirmed in the Lutheran church or would my baptism in another church cover that too?
No you would not need to be confirmed as well. An adult baptism in another denomination would cover that, too.
My MIL and her mother were Jewish, but converted to Christianity. They were baptized as adults into the Lutheran church, and that pretty much covers it.
ETA: I'd like to clarify this post, as I was unhappy with my phrasing. An adult baptism is treated like a combination of baptism/confirmation, as you are naturally old enough to "confirm" what you are doing.
< Message edited by Sideways -- 6/30/2008 1:24:54 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/30/2008 1:22:30 PM
|
|
|
manda59
Posts: 6162
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
No you would not need to be confirmed as well. An adult baptism in another denomination would cover that, too.
My MIL and her mother were Jewish, but converted to Christianity. They were baptized as adults into the Lutheran church, and that pretty much covers it.
ETA: I'd like to clarify this post, as I was unhappy with my phrasing. An adult baptism is treated like a combination of baptism/confirmation, as you are naturally old enough to "confirm" what you are doing.
Thanks for the clarification. It does however confuse me a bit, because if an adult baptism elsewhere is the equivalent of baptism/confirmation in the Lutheran church, then why doesn't the Lutheran church just baptise adults too?!
_____________________________
"Manda is right"
mvic, January 2009
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/30/2008 1:49:58 PM
|
|
|
Ps103
Posts: 11744
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
Absolutely! Adults are baptized in the Lutheran church all the time. And if you were baptized in a different denomination, then that would be fine, too.
Would I need to be confirmed in the Lutheran church or would my baptism in another church cover that too?
No you would not need to be confirmed as well. An adult baptism in another denomination would cover that, too.
My MIL and her mother were Jewish, but converted to Christianity. They were baptized as adults into the Lutheran church, and that pretty much covers it.
ETA: I'd like to clarify this post, as I was unhappy with my phrasing. An adult baptism is treated like a combination of baptism/confirmation, as you are naturally old enough to "confirm" what you are doing.
Not to argue, but that is not quite correct.
When I joined a Lutheran church, I had been Baptized (immersed at age 12). As long as you are Baptized properly (in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit) most churches that I am aware of accept that. (Well, as long as they go by the Creeds, which state "one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins.)
But, when I joined the Lutheran church, I was Confirmed when I joined. It i the ame for Anglicans and Catholics. I am pretty sure it is the same for Methodists, since they branched off from Anglicans, but I honestly do not know.
But the Confirmation was there--she just did not rcognize it for what it was. 
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/30/2008 2:35:23 PM
|
|
|
Sideways
Posts: 3934
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
So, you're saying it was part of the induction ceremony? I know we were asked to state our beliefs as part of the ceremony, and I did say before that everybody goes through a new member class. But it was a lot shorter then any confirmation ceremony or class I've ever seen. (Confirmation is generally a 1 year process, joining a church is much shorter, and required for even confirmed Lutherans.)
But maybe different churches do things differently.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/30/2008 2:57:44 PM
|
|
|
danas_mom
Posts: 528
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
As long as you are Baptized properly (in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit) most churches that I am aware of accept that.
I've asked about that very thing in more than one Baptist church, and the answer is always the same - they do not recognize ANY baptism outside of the Baptist denomination as correct and will require a "re-baptism" for membership. I think it's baloney, but that's what I was told.
I would attend a church that I had minor disagreements with, but you can bet I would not be shy about explaining my viewpoints about why I disagreed. Would I join the church? I don't know, probably not but I would never say never because I don't always know what God will call me to do. Major theological disagreements, I wouldn't even attend.
quote:
If I disagreed, on an issue even as "non-monumental" as this, I wouldn't continue to stay there.
Not everybody has a choice. We live in the Bible Belt, so you can toss a rock in any given direction and hit at least one or two churches, but I'm well aware not everywhere has options like that.
_____________________________
I will not sacrifice to the LORD my God burnt offerings that cost me nothing. ~ 2 Samuel 24:24
Spirit of Ashes Creations
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Kicka, part 3 - 6/30/2008 3:03:03 PM
|
|
|
manda59
Posts: 6162
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: danas_mom
I've asked about that very thing in more than one Baptist church, and the answer is always the same - they do not recognize ANY baptism outside of the Baptist denomination as correct and will require a "re-baptism" for membership.
I don't know about American Baptist churches, but that is *most definitely NOT* the case here in the UK.
_____________________________
"Manda is right"
mvic, January 2009
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
