RE: Kicka, part 3 (Full Version)

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manda59 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (7/28/2008 2:19:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sideways
One judge can often make crazy decisions. I too am curious of the long term consequences of the one judge's decision that Ryanne posted.



It's not a decision, it's an opinion.



Sideways -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (7/28/2008 2:20:31 PM)

It did seem a little strange. From the original wording, I'd thought that this was some sort of actual court case. Thanks for clearing that up.

I'd be mighty shocked if this judge's opinion ever became law.



manda59 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (7/28/2008 2:30:57 PM)

Sideways

Did you read the Daily Mail article I linked to in my response to Ryanne?



Mrs.Wifey -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (7/28/2008 5:41:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: manda59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
No, but judging by certain things that have been allowed to pass then it wouldn't surprise me at all.


"Allowed to pass"? The article you posted represents Lord Chief Justice Lord Philips' opinion. Like the rest of us he is allowed to have opinions!

Also, try looking at a more comprehensive article HERE

You said "things" - what else were you thinking of?


I meant "things" as in the multiple laws under Sharia.

He isn't the only one who has endorsed Sharia laws, and the fact that any official is endorsing them is not something I would be approving of...
quote:


I'd be mighty shocked if this judge's opinion ever became law.


I wouldn't, not when there is more then one person supporting it, and when a good number of muslims would be supportive. They polled some university students and over a third of the Muslim's would approve. When leaders aren't taking a strong stand against something, then anything could happen.

quote:

A third of Muslim students back killings
Radicalism and support for sharia is strong in British universities
July 27, 2008
Abul Taher


ALMOST a third of British Muslim students believe killing in the name of Islam can be justified, according to a poll.

The study also found that two in five Muslims at university support the incorporation of Islamic sharia codes into British law.

The YouGov poll for the Centre for Social Cohesion (CSC) will raise concerns about the extent of campus radicalism. “Significant numbers appear to hold beliefs which contravene democratic values,” said Han-nah Stuart, one of the report’s authors. “These results are deeply embarrassing for those who have said there is no extremism in British universities.”

The report was criticised by the country’s largest Muslim student body, Fosis, but Anthony Glees, professor of security and intelligence studies at Buckingham University, said: “The finding that a large number of students think it is okay to kill in the name of religion is alarming.



ThursdaysChild -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (7/29/2008 5:00:20 AM)

Sharia law is harsh and is very inhumane. It would be a shame if it were allowed. However...if you allow any religious courts to have legal status, then you should allow any to. Therefore, if the Church of England's court has legal status and their decisions are binding (as mentioned in the article that Manda linked to), and if the Jewish community is allowed to have their own court to decide things according to Jewish law, then Muslims should be allowed the same right. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

That being said, we need to remember what was mentioned in both Rianne's and Manda's articles...Sharia Law (and the Jewish law as well) is only allowed where it doesn't contridict British law. If something is allowed in Sharia but not in British law, British law trumps it. There needs to be oversight for sure.

It's not surprising that a third of British Muslms believe killing in the name of Islam can be justified. It's taught in the Qur'an. While most don't have the stomach to do such a thing themselves, they certainly don't have difficulty supporting it. Case in point, one of my friends from work was raised in Canada. Very western, open-minded, believes in tolerance, etc. Very western mind-set. However, when another colleague was talking about what a horrible history Turkey has, about the horrible things it did while invading other countries to establish the Ottoman Empire, my first friend replied with, "Of course, they were spreading Islam". [8|]

The Qur'an teaches (could be the Hadith, but somewhere in writing) that there are 3 levels of converting others to Islam. The first is with argument. Discussing the religion and persuading people to convert. When that doesn't work there are economic sanctions. Special taxes, etc. After that, if those two don't work, you kill them. While most wouldn't have the stomach to actually do it themselves, you'd be hard-pressed to find those who would be opposed to it.





solo_soprano22 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (7/29/2008 8:12:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lexie

How does Medicare work? Is it just like another insurance company?


I'm not the best to explain everything about Medicare, but I know many doctors try to limit or not take any Medicare patients. One doctor I read of in the Chicago area actually took on just about all Medicare patients (no one else around wanted to take them and they really needed care...most had no transportation available, even local buses), and he barely took home a paycheck after all was said and done. (The only reason I was reading about him anyway is that Medicare is one of those medical ethics things that we have to discuss.) Anyway, an insurance company (like BC/BS for example) might pay a doctor $20 for an x-ray that cost around that price, but Medicare pays $5 (those aren't accurate numbers, but just to get the point across). There are some things that Medicare barely pays anything for, whereas an insurance company will usually pay a better rate to the doctor for the services/procedures/radiography.



lexie -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (7/29/2008 8:13:55 AM)

quote:

The Qur'an teaches (could be the Hadith, but somewhere in writing) that there are 3 levels of converting others to Islam. The first is with argument. Discussing the religion and persuading people to convert. When that doesn't work there are economic sanctions. Special taxes, etc. After that, if those two don't work, you kill them. While most wouldn't have the stomach to actually do it themselves, you'd be hard-pressed to find those who would be opposed to it.


How Islam was spread through Africa.

quote:

He isn't the only one who has endorsed Sharia laws, and the fact that any official is endorsing them is not something I would be approving of...


I'm sure you can find some officials in the US who would support Sharia laws...the country just isn't at that point of discussion. If you give it a few years, I'm sure a few people will come out in support of it.

When they tried to get it pass here, the way it was reported in the media was that so many people were in support of it, and in the end it was shot down by a lot.



Sideways -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (7/29/2008 8:21:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
He isn't the only one who has endorsed Sharia laws, and the fact that any official is endorsing them is not something I would be approving of...


There are a lot of officials in America who have some scary opinions on a lot of topics, some are liberal, some are very, very conservative, some are more moderate. If it's not Sharia laws, it's something else that would keep me up at night, if I ever thought their opinions had any chance of making into law.

Give the people of England a little more credit then that, ok?



manda59 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (7/29/2008 8:31:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
I meant "things" as in the multiple laws under Sharia.


Did you read the article I posted btw?

quote:


He isn't the only one who has endorsed Sharia laws, and the fact that any official is endorsing them is not something I would be approving of...


Who said anyone's approving? LOL We're used to old judges ranting here.

quote:


When leaders aren't taking a strong stand against something, then anything could happen.


Don't expect a lot from Gordon Brown - see what happens with the next one. (yes, I believe we will have a change of government!!)

Re the other article you posted - it's no surprise to me that we have some Muslim extremists here. It's a rather biased article though that makes a generalised statement about Muslim students in British universities based on what is essentially a rather small sample who were polled.



manda59 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (7/29/2008 8:36:04 AM)

Personally, I regard the number of Muslims in this country as a wonderful opportunity to spread the Gospel in a way that might not be possible if they were all in their homeland. We have some Turkish Muslims in our town, and at the moment, we just chat and exchange pleasanteries - but at home here I have some New Testaments in Turkish ready to give to any of them if they start to show any interest in what we believe.

In Southampton, a city about an hour away, lives a former Imam who has converted to Christianity - just imagine what a witness that man is! Of course, his life could easily be in danger, but it does not stop him sharing his faith.



lexie -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (7/29/2008 9:17:56 AM)

quote:

Personally, I regard the number of Muslims in this country as a wonderful opportunity to spread the Gospel in a way that might not be possible if they were all in their homeland.


I've had the opportunity to talk with a lot of Muslim women here in my neighbourhood about Christianity, it has been such a wonderful opportunity. A lot of Muslims have misconceptions about Christianity and it's been so nice to be able to clear them up. Christmas is a wonderful time for it. It's funny because we don't actually celebrate Christmas, but people are always asking me if we're excited for Christmas, and they ask Akeelah about Santa Claus. So it gives me an opportunity to explain some things to them.

There was also a wonderful ministry here this past Christmas, everyone in our neighbourhood was given a Jesus dvd that comes in almost all of the languages Muslim people speak along with a gift certificate for the local grocery store.



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (7/29/2008 11:58:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22

quote:

ORIGINAL: lexie

How does Medicare work? Is it just like another insurance company?


I'm not the best to explain everything about Medicare, but I know many doctors try to limit or not take any Medicare patients. One doctor I read of in the Chicago area actually took on just about all Medicare patients (no one else around wanted to take them and they really needed care...most had no transportation available, even local buses), and he barely took home a paycheck after all was said and done. (The only reason I was reading about him anyway is that Medicare is one of those medical ethics things that we have to discuss.) Anyway, an insurance company (like BC/BS for example) might pay a doctor $20 for an x-ray that cost around that price, but Medicare pays $5 (those aren't accurate numbers, but just to get the point across). There are some things that Medicare barely pays anything for, whereas an insurance company will usually pay a better rate to the doctor for the services/procedures/radiography.

that sounds pretty accurate to what my mom says....she works at a home health care agency, so they have to deal with Medicare/Medicaid all the time. Basically they have their own price for things that they will pay, and that's what they pay...period...no matter how much it actually costs for that procedure. So a lot of places don't want to have to deal with them, so they don't accept them. There are a lot of places that won't take our military insurance (Tricare) because of the same complaints.



Sideways -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (7/29/2008 1:09:38 PM)

Great posts, Manda! I did read the article you linked to, and there was nothing there that really concerned me. Even the "crazy old judge" explicitly stated that Sharia law should never be allowed to conflict with the law of the land. Besides that, he was just sounding off.

If you take a small enough sample of just the right people, you could get a survey that says 30% of this group in America thinks all Public Schools should be disbanded and all schooling done privately at the expense of the parents or by charity. So I don't take any one printed poll to seriously.



ncgrlnhisgrip -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (7/29/2008 10:20:58 PM)

Beth-

In your experience, do most of the people agree with the 3 methods of religious conversion you mentioned? Or is their a bit of an unspoken way of doing things- you know, "if method A doesn't work, try a little harder..." Do they believe a TRUE conversion can be achieved by force? Or is a forced conversion a little "lower on the totem pole," so to speak? That was very interesting to me- I've never heard that.

Also, with the Medicare thing- some docs charge their usual fees for patients w/Medicare/caid and then bill the patient the remainder when the co-insurances don't pay. That seems silly to me- the reason people have Medicaid in the first place is because they can't afford healthcare- what good does billing it to them do when they KNOW its going to a collection agency? If they're going to accept MM patients, why don't they charge what they know that MM pays? (just my opinion there of course- I am sure there's a golf-deprived doctor somewhere out there that thinks he can improve his stats by charging a disabled MM patient those few extra $$ haha)



lexie -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (7/30/2008 8:23:25 AM)

quote:

In your experience, do most of the people agree with the 3 methods of religious conversion you mentioned? Or is their a bit of an unspoken way of doing things- you know, "if method A doesn't work, try a little harder..." Do they believe a TRUE conversion can be achieved by force? Or is a forced conversion a little "lower on the totem pole," so to speak? That was very interesting to me- I've never heard that.


My experience with Western Muslims is that they don't really care if we convert. They think it's great if we do, but they don't care. I've had quite a few close friends who are Muslims, not to mention the number of people I'm friends or acquaintances with in my neighbourhood and no one has ever tried to even talk to me about it. Mostly they ask me about Christianity.

I heard somewhere once that the focus here is on supporting and strengthening the people who already are Muslim, rather than converting those who aren't.

I remember once asking a friend of mine if they believed that I could go to heaven even if I wasn't a Muslim. She said it's possible if I live a good life that God would approve of. It was an interesting perspective from someone in the religion considering what you typically hear about it.



ncgrlnhisgrip -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (7/30/2008 10:35:47 AM)

Lexie- yes, that has been my experience as well with people in general of other religions, not just Muslims. I think that sometimes the extermist ideals of the militant few people of another religion are greatly exaggerated.



spitzu -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (7/31/2008 12:11:57 AM)

But then again, what do you consider "extremist"? If a Muslim believed that people not following the Islamic religion had no way of entering heaven, would that be extreme?

I think true Christianity is pretty extreme. Maybe not militant, but definitely extreme.



ThursdaysChild -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (7/31/2008 5:52:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncgrlnhisgrip

Beth-

In your experience, do most of the people agree with the 3 methods of religious conversion you mentioned? Or is their a bit of an unspoken way of doing things- you know, "if method A doesn't work, try a little harder..." Do they believe a TRUE conversion can be achieved by force? Or is a forced conversion a little "lower on the totem pole," so to speak? That was very interesting to me- I've never heard that.


I think looking at it from a historical perspective is different than looking at it in the present. For example my friend had no problem with what the Turks did because they were spreading Islam. However, I'm sure it would send her little tolerant heart into palpitations if someone were to go out and do that now. She's as bothered by terrorism as anyone.

Also, my TA, while NOT my favorite person, is worth mentioning in her reaction to acts of terror. They just scared her half to death. She couldn't believe that people would do that. She's Muslim, they're Muslim, but they scare her.

quote:

But then again, what do you consider "extremist"? If a Muslim believed that people not following the Islamic religion had no way of entering heaven, would that be extreme?

I think true Christianity is pretty extreme. Maybe not militant, but definitely extreme.



Exactly. If a Muslim told me s/he believed I'd go to heaven, even though I'm not Muslim, I'd have to ask if they were really Muslim or had been listening to much to Oprah Winfrey.

A young woman who's parents go to our church in Kuwait gave the message one morning. She had been to a conference in Doha (I think) for dialogue with Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Whenever a Christian would try to sound tolerant and open-minded and basically wishy-washy on non-negotiables, the Jews and Muslims would shake their heads. They don't have much respect for people who don't seem to know what they should be believing as Christians. Even they know that if you're a Christian you believe this and this and this.



lexie -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (7/31/2008 9:21:34 AM)

quote:

They don't have much respect for people who don't seem to know what they should be believing as Christians. Even they know that if you're a Christian you believe this and this and this.


I remember talking to a Muslim friend of mine whose husband meets with a Christian man in the neighbourhood who is living here like a missionary (he wanted to minister to Pakistani's, and thought this neighbourhood would be a good opportunity.) She said the husband would ask questions of him and he couldn't answer them, and they can't understand how a Christian doesn't know about his own religion.

My issue is this. Muslims know what they believe because they are told what to believe. They are told when to pray and what to pray. Christians believe what they believe because they have a personal relationship with God. We pray when we want about what we want. So I told her that while I am very strong in my faith in God, I can't answer all of their questions because I am still pretty new in my faith. I would have to take the time to search the Bible to give them a complete answer. Yes there are absolutes (do not kill etc.) but Christianity is also about building a relationship with God, and developing your nurturing and understanding through that.

It seems to me that their religion is more about works, while ours is about faith.

I have also found through talking with this woman and others that what they believe about Christianity isn't always the whole story. Often there is a lot that needs to be clarified.



ChelseaRae -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (7/31/2008 11:34:49 PM)

I have a question for you ladies. I don't have a lot of dialog with protestants IRL, I have learned a lot from you ladies!! I have a question about why you attend the church that you do. I spent three years researching denominations before I became Catholic, none of my family is even Christian so it was a bit of a shock for them! What helped me decide was looking at different doctrines and finding which was truly biblically based. I also spent a lot of time reading about what the Church was like in the first few centuries after Jesus died, the leaders of the Church at that time wrote a lot of really awesome works!!

I know we aren't allowed to talk about Catholicism/Protestantism here, I'm not trying to do that, but I have noticed that sometimes when someone is having a problem with a church people suggest you just try a new church. That would never be an option for me, I believe my Church is the true church (as I know many other people do, not trying to debate) and I would never leave it because of people. It isn't an issue of belonging or being 'fed' for me, I go because I know it is the right thing to do.

Is the doctrine of the church and what it teaches not as important to you so long as you feel welcome at the church? Before changing churches do you research their beliefs on matters of doctrine? There are tens of thousands of different Protestant denominations out there, how do you *know* you are going to the right one?

Please don't take this as an attack on anyone's faith, I have a lot of respect for you ladies and have learned a lot from you and grown closer to God because of it. I am honestly curious how you make these decisions.



peace77 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (7/31/2008 11:48:16 PM)

When looking for a church to attend, I look at the beliefs and practices of the denomination and the individual congregation and see if it matches what the bible teaches.

It means nothing for a church group to say they believe in something, if the actions of the pastor or local congregation say otherwise.

Some churches place strong emphasis on certain bible verses while excluding the rest of the bible.
I generally avoid these churches as their teaching is not balanced.


Peace,
Anne



uponeagleswings -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 12:35:45 AM)

Ditto for me, although most of the churches we have attended have been nondenominational. When we were hunting for a church out here usually I got an idea by driving past a church. Then I would go online and find their website. Usually there's some sort of Statement of Faith/What We Believe page. I would read that for an idea of what the church's particular beliefs and priorities were, then if Dh and I basically agreed with them we'd go and visit, and go from there.

I don't think its so much about going to the "right" church, or believing the "right" things as it is about having an ongoing relationship with Jesus, and a church that facilitates that relationship. I'm not Catholic, so I don't believe that they are the only true Church (not debating, just stating my opinion). I think lots of different things are a matter of personal conviction, not necessarily salvation issues, and I look for a church that shares (or at least doesn't blatantly discount) my personal convictions. It seems that Christians tend to agree on most of the "big" issues and get bogged down in things that are more about personal convictions.



TammyIsBlessed -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 12:47:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: peace77

When looking for a church to attend, I look at the beliefs and practices of the denomination and the individual congregation and see if it matches what the bible teaches.

It means nothing for a church group to say they believe in something, if the actions of the pastor or local congregation say otherwise.


Totally agree.

Preaching from the Word and living it out!

quote:

ORIGINAL: uponeagleswings
I don't think its so much about going to the "right" church, or believing the "right" things as it is about having an ongoing relationship with Jesus, and a church that facilitates that relationship. I'm not Catholic, so I don't believe that they are the only true Church (not debating, just stating my opinion). I think lots of different things are a matter of personal conviction, not necessarily salvation issues, and I look for a church that shares (or at least doesn't blatantly discount) my personal convictions. It seems that Christians tend to agree on most of the "big" issues and get bogged down in things that are more about personal convictions.

Totally agree again!



lexie -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 8:46:58 AM)

quote:

but I have noticed that sometimes when someone is having a problem with a church people suggest you just try a new church.


Often what people are suggesting is not to find a new denomination, but a new church within that denomination. When I was in university I was looking for a church in my city. I had attended a Pentecostal church a bit back home so I thought I would look within that denomination. Went to one. Didn't like it. Then I went to one that a friend went to. I liked the preaching, I liked the young adults group, I didn't like the people (I was there for months and most people didn't try to introduce themselves to me.)

The right church for me is a combination of sound Biblical teaching and the people inside the church. If I'm spiritually fed at that church I will stay there. If I feel I'm not, I'll look for another one. I'm not a person who feels attached to one specific denomination, because I find a lot of my convictions and worship needs don't attach themselves to a specific denomination.



KatMack -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 9:12:29 AM)

Criteria #1 for me is that the Word has to be preached and lived.

Secondary to that, I'm a Baptist. I have certain things that I feel are right, but salvation does not hinge on. Those include believer's baptism by immersion, women not preaching and a few other doctrines. Once I find a church that is truthfully preaching the Word, I'll check to see if their beliefs on non-salvic issues line up with mine.

Thirdly, I need a church that can minister to my whole family. If a good children's program isn't in place, I would desire a church home that would allow me to help create one.

Finally, I want a congregation in which I can serve in my strengths and gifting. The Lord has blessed me with a talent for acting and writing. I have a deep passion for sharing God's truth through drama, so a church that believes theatre is of the devil... not the home for me (unless of course the Lord leads me to stay there and show them the wonderful ways drama can be used to edify the body and reach the lost)!

--Kat

ETA: I don't believe there is any one denomination or church body that can be called the "One True Church." I feel that the entire body of true believers all over the world is the real True Church (whether they agree with me or not on church structure, women preachers or method of baptism [8D]).



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