RE: Kicka, part 3 (Full Version)

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isaacsmom -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 10:52:26 AM)

quote:

ETA: I don't believe there is any one denomination or church body that can be called the "One True Church." I feel that the entire body of true believers all over the world is the real True Church (whether they agree with me or not on church structure, women preachers or method of baptism ).


Yes, this is the heart of it to me. We are all ONE body of Christ. It is the believers who compose that, not the denominations, etc. (You need stars, Kat). [;)]

I don't believe my denomination is the "only true and right". I believe that there are many that are true and right, if they teach and carry out the Word of God. We are at our current church home because we prayed and that is where the Lord led us to serve. This is the denomination hubby and I were raised in, but that doesn't have a whole lot to do with it. We were visiting other denominations when the Lord directed us to where we are.

I don't agree with "church hopping" (LOL, that's the term used around here) for petty reasons. Unfortunately, it seems that many believers are in it only for themselves, and if a church doesn't coddle them, they find something else. Attending a church service is not about "what's in it for me?". It's about worship. I'm not trying to offend anyone, because the Bible teaches us that believers are to fellowship together, care for one another and to reach out. If a church is not doing that, it is wrong. But it seems that some people only expect to be reached out to and never want to reach out themselves. I have personally known people like that IRL. Now, hubby and I have visited churches where we did not have the peace from the Spirit that we prayed for. That was our indication that was not the place the Lord would have us to serve in. We knew we didn't "belong" there. OK, now I'm just rambling. LOL.

Good question/discussion, Chelsea!



myka -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 1:25:17 PM)

quote:

Is the doctrine of the church and what it teaches not as important to you so long as you feel welcome at the church? Before changing churches do you research their beliefs on matters of doctrine? There are tens of thousands of different Protestant denominations out there, how do you *know* you are going to the right one?


Chelsea, that is really a great question. We actually recently made a big change in our church affiliation. For us, the church's doctrine is very important; there are certain things that are musts for us (something along the lines of the Nicene creed). We used to attend a church that was "friendly" but not spiritual (although they thought they were); for us it isn't really about feeling welcome, but about seeing evidence of spiritual growth and vitality. We also have preferences for certain practices--baptism is one of those for us.

Since most Protestant denominations believe that there are different expressions of the Christian faith, there isn't truly a "right denomination" (and I think that is also the Catholic church's stance). Believers belong to the universal church.

Personally, we have read and consider a number of the early church fathers a wonderful resource for us today.



magdaleine -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 2:17:28 PM)

When considering what church to go to, I immediately discount any that, from my observation have heretical beliefs or teaching. I believe there is more that unites us all as Christians, despite denomination, than that divides us and so once the "heretical" churches are eliminated (e.g. don't believe Jesus is God, have no distaste for what is clearly defined as sin in the Bible, such as promiscuity, homosexuality, etc.) I look for things like the presence of the Holy Spirit. What is happening in a particular congregation? Are the people on fire for God or is church just one more obligation? How are they impacting their neighbourhood, the city? Are they involved in missions?
There are a lot of doctrines in the Church around the world that are debatable (just check out the theology forum). Many of these have good "proofs" for both sides in the Bible so I don't allow those to get me tied up in knots. I guess I prefer a church that keeps its statement of beliefs to the essentials, allowing members to decide the debatables on their own. For this reason, I rejected one church I was considering. I haven't made up my mind on the issue that were making "vital," and I'm honest enough that I don't want to say I believe something that I don't.

While the whole issue of women in church leadership is debatable and I see the points for each side, I prefer a church where I can be involved in ministry of some sort. I will not belong to a church that is legalistic. Here in Winnipeg, there is a lot of inter-denominational cooperation so it's easy to hear the reputations of many churches. There is one church that I might have considered but I've heard a couple of things about it that really bother me so I crossed it off my list.

Hope all that makes some sense to you.



ChelseaRae -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 7:51:13 PM)

Thank you for all of your answers, I find them very interesting! [:)]

Your answers have left me with more questions though, a lot of you say that you look for a church where the Word is being preached and lived. How do you decide whether the that is happening? The Bible itself says that it is very hard to understand. How do you decide if it is 'sound' teaching when some churches are baptizing infants and some aren't, some are teaching osas and some aren't, etc. How much time did you spend studying scripture and other references before you decided which church to go to? How do you *know* that your interpretation of scripture is right, as opposed to Joe Pentocostal's interpretation especially when there are so many different interpretations out there?

eta: We are going to family reunion this weekend so I won't be back until Sunday night, so don't think I have abandoned this if I don't post over the weekend.[:D]



isaacsmom -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 8:05:29 PM)

quote:

How do you decide whether the that is happening? The Bible itself says that it is very hard to understand.


What do you mean by this? Just wanting to clarify. What exactly does the Bible say is very hard to understand?



manda59 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 8:34:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChelseaRae
I don't have a lot of dialog with protestants IRL


That's a shame! I have quite a lot of conversations with brothers and sisters in Christ from a number of denominations (and non-denominations!), including Catholics.

quote:


I know we aren't allowed to talk about Catholicism/Protestantism here, I'm not trying to do that, but I have noticed that sometimes when someone is having a problem with a church people suggest you just try a new church. That would never be an option for me


That's interesting - I've known Catholic friends change Catholic churches before for various reasons (eg over Vatican 2 related issues)

quote:


I believe my Church is the true church (as I know many other people do, not trying to debate)


Actually (and I sincerely do not mean this to be offensive) I don't know of any Protestant denomination (or non-denomination) - barring a "cult" - that considers itself alone to be "the true Church". What I've met wherever I've been has been a view that embraces all true believers as the body of Christ, whichever Christian denomination they happen to attend, whether that be

quote:


Is the doctrine of the church and what it teaches not as important to you so long as you feel welcome at the church? Before changing churches do you research their beliefs on matters of doctrine?


Yes the doctrine is important - we check out the Statement of Faith first and make sure it's Nicene Creed stuff. For us we'd also prefer to see believers' baptism there, as that is Scriptural, and also an "open table" for taking communion.

quote:


There are tens of thousands of different Protestant denominations out there, how do you *know* you are going to the right one?


We have always felt able to trust God to tell us by His Spirit where He wants us to be.



ChelseaRae -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 8:34:26 PM)

I don't have time to go into more detail but I was refering to verses like 2 Peter 3:16 where he talks about Paul's letters and how "In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures." And Acts 8:30-31 where he didn't understand scripture until he was instructed.



ChelseaRae -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 8:43:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: manda59

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChelseaRae
I don't have a lot of dialog with protestants IRL


That's a shame! I have quite a lot of conversations with brothers and sisters in Christ from a number of denominations (and non-denominations!), including Catholics.

It is a shame, I agree 100%! Unfortunately I don't know many protestants who are comfortable in their faith enough to dialog about it.

quote:


I know we aren't allowed to talk about Catholicism/Protestantism here, I'm not trying to do that, but I have noticed that sometimes when someone is having a problem with a church people suggest you just try a new church. That would never be an option for me


That's interesting - I've known Catholic friends change Catholic churches before for various reasons (eg over Vatican 2 related issues)

They are still going to a Catholic church though, Vatican 2 did shake up the Church but the Church is made up of people, fallible people. You can't look at them, you have to look at the teachings of the church. By that I meant I would never change denominations, changing parishes is totally different.
quote:


I believe my Church is the true church (as I know many other people do, not trying to debate)


Actually (and I sincerely do not mean this to be offensive) I don't know of any Protestant denomination (or non-denomination) - barring a "cult" - that considers itself alone to be "the true Church". What I've met wherever I've been has been a view that embraces all true believers as the body of Christ, whichever Christian denomination they happen to attend, whether that be

I have some major problems with that. How can you believe in the teachings of more than one denomination? In my experience if you are attending a church then you believe what it teaches... and not what a different church teaches. Jesus said he would leave a church and that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it, do you really believe that He wanted scripture to be interpreted in 10,000 different ways?

quote:


Is the doctrine of the church and what it teaches not as important to you so long as you feel welcome at the church? Before changing churches do you research their beliefs on matters of doctrine?


Yes the doctrine is important - we check out the Statement of Faith first and make sure it's Nicene Creed stuff. For us we'd also prefer to see believers' baptism there, as that is Scriptural, and also an "open table" for taking communion.

That is Scriptural in your opinion... why are you right in saying that's scriptural while everyone who doesn't believe that is wrong?

quote:


There are tens of thousands of different Protestant denominations out there, how do you *know* you are going to the right one?


We have always felt able to trust God to tell us by His Spirit where He wants us to be.

Amen.[:D]



manda59 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 8:54:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChelseaRae
I don't have time to go into more detail but I was refering to verses like 2 Peter 3:16 where he talks about Paul's letters and how "In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures." And Acts 8:30-31 where he didn't understand scripture until he was instructed.



The Acts 8 reference concerns the Ethiopian eunuch who wasn't a Christian. He'd been reading Isaiah as a non-believer and was seeking the one about whom he was reading. Philip was able to explain to him that these verses referred to Jesus, and the eunuch then accepted Christ as His Saviour.

The 2 Peter 3 verse seems to be very much related to just some of Paul's writings - and really was just IMO stressing the need for good teaching, lessening the likelihood of things being misunderstood.



manda59 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 9:03:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChelseaRae
It is a shame, I agree 100%! Unfortunately I don't know many protestants who are comfortable in their faith enough to dialog about it.


A cultural difference maybe. Maybe it's because there are relatively so few Christians in the UK at all, that we have more of a tendency to try and stick together.

quote:


By that I meant I would never change denominations, changing parishes is totally different.


Well, when Protestants speak of changing churches, they often mean within their denomination (or non-denomination) too! Or changing to a denomination that basically believes the same things, yet does things in a different style.

quote:


I have some major problems with that. How can you believe in the teachings of more than one denomination?


By deciding which are "deal-breakers" and which are not. For me, the Nicene Creed is the deal-breaker, things that are salvation issues.

quote:


In my experience if you are attending a church then you believe what it teaches... and not what a different church teaches.


Not necessarily. My husband and I attended a Methodist Chapel for a year once, when we were "between churches" for a number of reasons. We didn't agree with all of their practices, but we agreed on the essential salvation issues, and that was enough for us to be comfortable fellowshipping and worshipping with them.

quote:


Jesus said he would leave a church and that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it, do you really believe that He wanted scripture to be interpreted in 10,000 different ways?


I believe that it is the essentials that are important to Him. Our beliefs about Him, not all the other stuff.

quote:


That is Scriptural in your opinion...


ChelseaRae, it is in Scripture. Believers were baptised in the NT. There is no record of anyone other than believers being baptised. And re communion, the only reason in Scripture for someone not receiving communion as a believer is if they're out of fellowship with a brother or sister in Christ and are not prepared to be reconciled before taking it.

The major difference, as I see it, between Catholics and Protestants is that Protestants use Scripture only as the basis for their faith/teaching, but for Catholics it's Scripture PLUS sacred Catholic tradition passed down through the centuries. That's the bit I really struggle with (not wanting to debate here, just wanting to state my position).

You asked what was important to us. To us, the Nicene Creed is a deal-breaker, believers' baptism and communion is not - it's a preference, but not a "must". Hence our having attended a Methodist Chapel for a year, as I mentioned above.

(Btw, FYI we attend a non-denominational "carefully charismatic" church which was formed originally from Baptist and Brethren roots. We have a congregation of about 200, including folks from all types of church backgrounds including former Catholics. One of our elders is Anglican, the son of an Anglican vicar. We are all one in Christ, no matter what.)



Sideways -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 9:07:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChelseaRae
Your answers have left me with more questions though, a lot of you say that you look for a church where the Word is being preached and lived. How do you decide whether the that is happening?


You've raised some very good points, and I really enjoy your next post. When people say "The Word is preached and lived" often they mean, "preached and lived according to how I interpret it". Others may be turned off by perceived hypocrisy or legalism and rightly so.

We can't "know" that our specific interpretation is right and all others are wrong, and in fact, I'm not sure any one denomination has it perfect. But as long as the basics of the Christian faith are there, it doesn't matter a whole lot. That's why I don't get to hung up on minor doctrinal differences, but I do get really ticked off when one denomination thinks they are the end all be all of Christianity (and this includes Protestants who unfairly judge Catholics).

What does matter is that a church allows you to grow and thrive as a Christian, so that you can be a vital force in your community for Christ.



manda59 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 9:18:25 PM)

The first church I ever attended as a believer, at 17, was a Free Evangelical Church. No vicars or priests, just elders and deacons. The morning service would start with a silence, until the Holy Spirit led someone to share some verses, a testimony, some teaching, or to lead a song. One day one of the elders said the following, and it has stuck with me for the rest of my life. He said (I'm paraphrasing):

"Don't automatically believe everything that is taught here, by anyone. We're all fallen human beings and we can get it wrong. Check everything we say against Scripture, and before the Lord. Seek His face on the subject, weigh it up before Him, talk to Him and listen. Let the Holy Spirit enlighten you and be your teacher. And if it turns out that any of us are wrong, come and tell us - but preferable not right after the service!"

That's always stayed with me, and that emphasis on our personal walk, our individual relationship with our Heavenly Father, has helped me through many a different church situation.



magdaleine -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 9:28:42 PM)

You know if the Word is being preached and lived by listening to the sermons, watching the members and knowing your Bible. Some churches teach directly from the Bible. Others tell good stories but the Bible is rarely mentioned. I'd avoid the latter kind of church.

I don't think the Bible is all that hard to understand. On the other hand, even a lifetime of reading can't plumb all the riches that are in it. I've been reading my Bible since elementary school and I still find new insights (I'm 52). Currently I'm reading the entire Bible through twice a year.

You know sound teaching in a church if it matches what you've been reading in the Bible. Of course, if you don't read your Bible, then you're really dependent on others to know the truth and that puts anyone into a vulnerable place. As I said in my previous post, some doctrines are arguable--both sides of a question can be argued with good Scriptural back-up. To me, those doctrines aren't essentials. That would include things like baptism. I don't know what you mean by "osas."

How do you know that your interpretation of Scripture is correct? It is the job of the Holy Spirit to speak to us through God's Word--to help us understand it correctly. So I read my Bible, asking God and trusting him to give me the understanding I need and he does. Yes, there are many interpretations "out there." I read about one very famous TV evangelist who fell into disgrace who later wrote that he had never read the Bible through. He only knew selected parts. I'm thinking that that's more common than is acknowledged. Too many people base their beliefs on things other than the Bible (or on only certain parts). One part of the Bible will help to explain another part. To pull one verse or one chapter out and base doctrines on that without getting the entire picture from the whole Bible is dangerous.



Roberta_ -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 9:37:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:


I know we aren't allowed to talk about Catholicism/Protestantism here, I'm not trying to do that, but I have noticed that sometimes when someone is having a problem with a church people suggest you just try a new church. That would never be an option for me


That's interesting - I've known Catholic friends change Catholic churches before for various reasons (eg over Vatican 2 related issues)


My soon-to-be-former MIL did that. She's Catholic and just wasn't enjoying going to church anymore. She switched churches and now enjoys going again.



isaacsmom -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 9:38:26 PM)

quote:

How much time did you spend studying scripture and other references before you decided which church to go to? How do you *know* that your interpretation of scripture is right, as opposed to Joe Pentocostal's interpretation especially when there are so many different interpretations out there?


But Joe Pentecostal and Jane Baptist have the one thing in common . . . . Jesus Christ. As Manda stated, as long as the basics are there, that is what matters (Nicene Creed stuff). By the basics, I mean believing that the Word of God is fully inspired, infallible and inerrant, that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, that he was born of a virgin, that he came to Earth to die for our sins, that if we ask, believe and confess we will be saved, that he sent his Holy Spirit to dwell within us when we accept him. Etc., etc.

Everything else from speaking in tongues, believer's baptism (and I hold the same view as Manda on that), to eschatology, dispensational vs. non-dispensational, etc., all that is secondary. I don't think any one denomination (I think as Ruth said) has it all perfect, because we are human and we have finite minds.

quote:

I don't have time to go into more detail but I was refering to verses like 2 Peter 3:16 where he talks about Paul's letters and how "In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures." And Acts 8:30-31 where he didn't understand scripture until he was instructed.


Manda already answered this well, but yes, these scriptures are speaking of people who are immature in the faith. As we grow, we are discipled by mature believers and are taught by the Holy Spirit as we study the Word. Milk comes before meat when we are babes in Christ, or we won't be able to digest it properly.

quote:

You know sound teaching in a church if it matches what you've been reading in the Bible. Of course, if you don't read your Bible, then you're really dependent on others to know the truth and that puts anyone into a vulnerable place.


This is so true.



nicole6598 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 9:41:22 PM)

Kat I really liked your post!!!

Rachel we call it church hopping here too. I would only move churches if I found they were headed in the wrong direction. But I wouldn't just swap denominations unless it was close to what I believed to be true. So I find that I can feel comfortable with the teaching in baptist, uniting, AOG and other pentecostal churches.

My church has lately got off track I believe and its very hard to stay there. But seeing as this church is the only option for us in our town I am sticking it out (although I am not going every week like I did, I need a break now and then to make sure I am really getting what God wants from me).

i just wanted to say that in my church we always pray for the other Bible believing churches in our town, churches that preach the fullness of the gospel of Christ. I don't think my church has it right, I dont think any church has it all right. But you need to go with where you believe God wants you to be and where you feel the teaching matches the Word.

I think you have asked some good questions Chelsea!



Sideways -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 10:40:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: magdaleine
One part of the Bible will help to explain another part. To pull one verse or one chapter out and base doctrines on that without getting the entire picture from the whole Bible is dangerous.


Amen to that! My dH says to always look at the stuff that gets repeated over and over, 'cause then you know it's really important! He says to look to the gospels as the heart of the Bible, and the other books as supporting to those four.



manda59 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 10:48:44 PM)

I like the children's rhyme "The New is in the Old concealed; the Old is in the New revealed". [:)]



Sideways -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 10:50:17 PM)

HAH! I like that, Manda. I've never heard it before, but I like it. [:)]



magdaleine -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 10:53:12 PM)

Yeah, and far too many Christians completely ignore the Old.



ncgrlnhisgrip -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/1/2008 11:37:41 PM)

Chelsea's gone for the weekend so hopefully when she gets back she will see how much I LOVED that post! Such an awesome Kicka-ish question (so worthy of the calling of the Kicka)...

So I think the bottom line question is: Do you follow the doctrines you believe in, or the church you attend?

If the church changes its position on doctrine (communion, baptism, spiritual gifts, whatever), do you support the church strongly enough (much like it appears that Catholics do for the most part) to stay with the church and support their new position on the doctrine, or do you leave the church to find a new one that agrees with your position on the doctrine?

I for one, would love to visit a new church every week and hang with believers of all beliefs. I think there is enough disunity in the body that maybe some open dialogue would help out.

After all,

quote:

But Joe Pentecostal and Jane Baptist have the one thing in common . . . . Jesus Christ.


Love it!



spitzu -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/2/2008 1:10:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChelseaRae
It isn't an issue of belonging or being 'fed' for me, I go because I know it is the right thing to do.


What makes it the right thing to do? What is the purpose of a church (church here meaning building/services) if not to feed and minister to the body and equip them to feed and minister to the world? If a church isn't feeding you (and the reason isn't because your heart is in the wrong place or something), then why would you be there at all? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding how you used the word "fed".

I, too, disagree with the whole "one true church" thing. The "true church" is the body of Christ, which is comprised of people from many different denominations... catholics, baptists, non-denominational, lutherans, etc etc etc. What makes someone a part of the "true church" is their acceptance of God's merciful gift of salvation and their following of His Son, Jesus... not the physical building they attend once or twice a week, or the group of believers they claim to "belong" to or be a member of, or whether or not they speak in tongues or have blue carpet or red carpet or cover their heads or wear no makeup.

Interesting discussion (yes, oh so worthy of the calling of the Kicka LOL). We're not currently a member of a church (we left ours for reasons I won't go into right now, though we're not church hoppers), but when we look for one again, we'll be looking first to the doctrine (the big things others have mentioned) and whether it lines up with Scripture (as per we understand it based on a combined 40+ years of study, anyway) and then see if it is a good fit for us. A good fit for us would be a place where we can both be fed/ministered to and be equipped to feed/minister to others. Generally we lean more towards a non-denominational type of service, but lately we're leaning towards a Messianic Judaism flavor.



spitzu -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/2/2008 1:16:38 AM)

I noticed that I keep posting right after Dana.

She must think I'm stalking her. [8D]



TwinCityGirl -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/2/2008 3:31:16 AM)

I'm going to stalk Dana, too, until she brings me a glass of sweet tea! [8D]

We don't church-hop but are currently fairly untethered. My denomination (that I grew up in) merged with another group 20 years ago and now this combined group has a bunch of really liberal people in charge, which is so unlike the old group before the combination of the two. Ugh! And by liberal I mean gay pastors? What? Really??! I'm not against gay people, I have a friend who is gay but I would no more respect a heterosexual pastor cheating on his wife than I would a homosexual pastor. Sexual sin is sexual sin. Pastors aren't perfect but some things just shouldn't be a struggle like that for them -- actually, those pastors AREN'T struggling with it being wrong if they've just decided this is who they are and tough cookies to the rest of you. (Sorry, tangent!)

Anyhow, so I grew up in this great group which I feel is more or less ruined by all this newer group's shenanigans (gay pastors is just one of the reasons I'm troubled). So the church I belong to I don't really feel I 'belong to' anymore.

My DH and I started attending a very large church of another denomination. Good preaching but I have never felt called to attend there and it's just so easy for me not to attend there due to parking hassles, non-salvic theological differences. Great people, like I said, great teaching....but we've not been in a few months.

I hate being untethered, though. I wish our denomination hadn't gotten spoiled by the other group coming in. I feel kind of ripped off about that, but I don't want to keep attending there and even if the pastor there isn't gay, I don't want to be sending a message to the higher-ups in the denomination that I am okay with them dismissing God's rules because it's an easier pill for the world to swallow. (I want to be transformed, not conformed -- as per the Good Book.)

Jeanie

I hope you had a nice family reunion, Chelsea! Thanks for bringing up the topic and I hope you can get back to Kicka soon!



Sideways -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/2/2008 6:53:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncgrlnhisgrip
So I think the bottom line question is: Do you follow the doctrines you believe in, or the church you attend?


I do not ascribe to all of the doctrines of the church I attend. If my husband were to die, then I'd bring myself and the children over to a different church. But I follow my husband, so I go where he goes. The differences are not bad enough (not salvation issues) that I would refuse to attend or put up a stink about my children being raised in his church.

On the other hand, dH has volunteered to attend non-Lutheran churches with me, if I truely felt like I was not being fed at any Lutheran church nearby.



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