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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/2/2008 7:52:50 AM
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lexie
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quote:
How do you decide whether the that is happening? The Bible itself says that it is very hard to understand. How do you decide if it is 'sound' teaching when some churches are baptizing infants and some aren't, some are teaching osas and some aren't, etc. How much time did you spend studying scripture and other references before you decided which church to go to? How do you *know* that your interpretation of scripture is right, as opposed to Joe Pentocostal's interpretation especially when there are so many different interpretations out there?
Sorry to use such a long quote, but I would turn the question back to you Chelsea and ask how do you know that what you believe of the scripture is right? How do you know that your church is the true church? Because you prayed and studied and believed or because your church told you that it's the true church? (Not a dig at you Chelsea, I'm just trying to form the question in a certain way.)
I love the verse in 2 Timothy - study to show thyself approved, a workman rightly dividing the word of truth (I could be paraphrasing there, and yes I'm a King James girl.) If we are not studying the Bible along with what we are learning in church then we will be led astray. We're not going to understand every mystery there is and God doesn't expect us to. But there is one thing that isn't a mystery - Jesus Christ, the Son of God, crucified on the cross so that we may see eternal life.
I also like the parable of the mustard seed for this. We should be aiming to bring forth the highest and best fruit. When God's Word is given to us we will know, because we have prepared the ground for it.
How do I choose the right church for me? I take my Bible and as the pastor preaches from the Bible I make sure that what he is saying matches up with what I'm reading. I make sure that nothing is being taken out of context. If I can't answer that for sure since I don't know everything, I study further on it. I question it. I pray on it. There are things I don't agree with my current church on but they are personal convictions. They aren't salvation issues and they aren't deal breakers for me on a church. I form my beliefs through study and prayer with God. I can't wait on a man in a pulpit to tell me what I should or should not believe.
(I need to remember that last part for the next time I'm talking with my SIL. She seems to equate the person in the pulpit with God and tends to leave God out of the decision making equation. While the men in the pulpit are most certainly blessed as vessels of God's word, I think too often people, like my SIL, forget that they are still men, the same as us.)
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/2/2008 2:09:10 PM
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isaacsmom
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Chelsea, I have a question, and this will truly show my ignorance, LOL . . . . does the Catholic church encourage individual Bible study? I'm asking because I truly do not know.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/2/2008 3:27:07 PM
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magdaleine
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Peculiar Lady, I have never heard that interpretation of the Gates of Hell before. What's your source?
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/2/2008 3:41:19 PM
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Miss Giggles
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The catholic church doesn't overtly teach individual bible study. Times might be changing though, it's been a while.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/2/2008 7:29:16 PM
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peculiar_lady2
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quote:
ORIGINAL: magdaleine
Peculiar Lady, I have never heard that interpretation of the Gates of Hell before. What's your source?
it's not really one source...it's a knowledge of the history of the region and practices of that region. You can google any of this and find it out there, I am just trying to put it all together for you (of what I know). In fact I encourage anyone to search this stuff out...it really is interesting and makes the scripture make much more sense if you know the regional history of the areas you are reading about in the Bible. I will try to put links as I can in what I say though...
the entire scripture reference of that is.....
Matthew 16:13-28
13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
so the scripture gives the region Jesus went to as being Caesarea Philippi. (Meaning Jesus went to the area where it could be seen...not meaning that he actually went into the city itself....but if you look up pics online you can see that it is built in/on the rocky terrain, so it can be seen from quite a distance away). It was an area "built" (actually, rebuilt in the Roman way) by Herod Phillip. Originally it was known as Paneas because it was the center for the worship of the Greek god Pan. Philip went in and set it up in the Roman way with a gymnasium, a center for education, and a temple...the three things the Roman Empire did everywhere. They would go in and set up those three things because if they could gain control of the youth through education, the religious through a temple open to all practices, and a gymnasium for unity among the people, then they could control the masses and the city for their own purposes. Philip was sent to take over this region, and when he had done that he wanted to name it in honour of Caesar in Rome...however there was already a city called "Caesarea" (on the Mediterranean coast), so he added his own name to it...thus the name Caesarea Philippi. (It is in the foothills of Mount Hermon which is in Syria.)
Pan is the god of shepherds and flocks. Their idol image of Pan has the back end, legs, and horns of a goat (sort of like what a faun would look like). In their worship of this god, the people would parade around with this idol and "pandemonium" or "panic" would ensue as basically a huge orgie would take place...because he is the god of fertility. (that's where those two words come from actually). Pan was said to "haunt" caves and rural areas...which is why the area of Caesarea Philippi was the perfect place for the worship of this god. Like I said up above, this city was in the foothills of Mount Hermon...a very steep, rocky terrain...lots of caves.
(LINK HERE to info about the "Grotto of Pan")
If you study Greek mythology, you will find that the water and caves comes into play in that it is the gateway to the underworld (also referenced as "Hades" or "Hell"), which is where the gods lived. So their portal of sorts (gateway) to get to this world was through springs of water coming up from the rock. Again the perfect place for this kind of worship was Caesarea Philippi because of the terrain....very rocky and known to have springs of water coming out of the rock. (LINK HERE to pic of one of the water streams now)
ok...that's about it (or at least my brain says it is right now...I may add more later though if you want me to keep going).....if you have a question just ask...I will try to find more references if you want more. Also check out THIS LINK for more pics and more specific insight into that region (along with scripture references to it all).
oh and HERE is a good overview lesson on this whole scriptural section (it has several different "lessons"...but pretty easy to understand)
< Message edited by peculiar_lady2 -- 8/2/2008 8:08:09 PM >
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/2/2008 8:53:10 PM
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magdaleine
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Thank you. YOu've given me a good idea of where you're coming from. I'll do some more research of this on my own.
I guess the thing I find odd is that I've had some excellent biblical teachers over the last nearly 30 years and if this was such common knowledge, why had I never heard it? I even have The Archaeological Study Bible and I don't recall it talking about that either. So my question is, how widely accepted is this understanding of that passage?
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/2/2008 9:27:09 PM
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magdaleine
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I'm not questioning the historical accuracy of what you said about Caesarea Philippi and Pan. My question is more about how that history is used to understand that passage. But I'm open to learning new things so, as I said, I will do some of my own research. Like you, I love history, so this is an interesting new thing to look at and consider.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/2/2008 9:47:26 PM
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magdaleine
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Yeah. Thanks.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/2/2008 9:58:51 PM
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uponeagleswings
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From: Out here in the desert
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quote:
ORIGINAL: spitzu
I, too, disagree with the whole "one true church" thing. The "true church" is the body of Christ, which is comprised of people from many different denominations... catholics, baptists, non-denominational, lutherans, etc etc etc. What makes someone a part of the "true church" is their acceptance of God's merciful gift of salvation and their following of His Son, Jesus... not the physical building they attend once or twice a week, or the group of believers they claim to "belong" to or be a member of, or whether or not they speak in tongues or have blue carpet or red carpet or cover their heads or wear no makeup.
Generally we lean more towards a non-denominational type of service, but lately we're leaning towards a Messianic Judaism flavor.
I agree here.
I've attended a Messianic synagogue before...I love it! If there was one around here I'd drag DH at least once in a while.
As Manda said, Sola Scriptura (sp) is really the main difference between Catholics and Protestants. Scripture only, or alongside sacred Catholic traditions. I've always wondered how Catholics reconcile adding their sacred traditions when the Bible says not to add to or take away from it.
"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." (Rev 22 NIV)
Do people generally only apply that verse to the book of Revelations, as opposed to the entire Bible? Its an honest question- I really don't know. I've always thought that verse was meant to apply to the entire Bible.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/2/2008 10:18:36 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: uponeagleswings
I've always wondered how Catholics reconcile adding their sacred traditions when the Bible says not to add to or take away from it.
I found this in Wiki - not intending for this to fuel debate, as that would be off-topic, but just to give information. I know Wiki isn't always the best source, but it seems to be to be accurate here (if anyone knows differently, please chip in!)
quote:
The Roman Catholic Church ... did not see Scripture and the Sacred Tradition of the faith as different sources of authority, but that Scripture was handed down as part of tradition (see 2 The 2:15, 2 Tim 2:2). Accepted traditions were also perceived by the Roman Church as cohesive in nature. The proper interpretation of the Scriptures was seen as part of the faith of the Church, and seen indeed as the manner in which Biblical authority was upheld (see Acts 15:28-29). The meaning of Scripture was seen as proven from the faith universally held in the churches (see Phil 2:1, Acts 4:32), and the correctness of that universal faith was seen as proven from the Scriptures and apostolic tradition (see 2 The 2:15, 2 The 3:6, 1 Cor 11:2). The Biblical canon itself was thus viewed by Rome as part of the Church's tradition, as defined by its leadership and acknowledged by its laity.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/2/2008 10:22:18 PM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10187
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From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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quote:
"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." (Rev 22 NIV)
Do people generally only apply that verse to the book of Revelations, as opposed to the entire Bible? Its an honest question- I really don't know. I've always thought that verse was meant to apply to the entire Bible.
I have always took that to apply to the book of Revelations as given to John, not the entire Bible. NOT that I think adding or subtracting to God's Word is good...just that I don't think that verse is talking about the entire Bible.
No idea how that relates to Catholicism.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/2/2008 10:39:44 PM
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danas_mom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Miss Giggles
The catholic church doesn't overtly teach individual bible study. Times might be changing though, it's been a while.
My best friend is old-school, Cajun Catholic. She and I were discussing something about scripture one day and I was a bit boggled at her stance. I asked her, 'well, what do Catholics believe about XYZ passage then?' She laughed and said 'Catholics don't read their Bibles, I have no idea.' I thought she was just teasing me, but I asked her and she was being absolutely serious.
She even told me of her elderly aunt, fiercely Catholic all her many years, recently buying her FIRST Bible because her priest told her she should have one.
I can't say this is true across the board, but it really made me sad.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/3/2008 1:00:00 AM
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manda59
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I've known plenty of Catholics who know their Bibles and study it.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/3/2008 1:41:22 AM
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spitzu
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That's definitely not true across the board. There are Catholics who study scripture themselves, there are Catholics who do not. There are Baptists who study themselves, there are Baptists who do not. I have no idea if the Catholic church has an official stance on the topic, but I've known Catholics on both sides (as well as Baptists, Pentecostals, and and and...).
Sarah, that was really fascinating. I normally do not enjoy history at all, but Biblical history and such I really love.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/3/2008 12:06:46 PM
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Miss Giggles
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I guess its because the church is your authority on spiritual matters and if you did read the bible it was the Message (catholic version).
You don't bring your bible to catholic church because you follow the liturgy that is laid out (same verses from year to year) and sing from their list of hymns.
I remember the first time I got invited to a baptist service and my mom told me to go buy a king james version and I was like why? LOL
I don't remember any small groups or bible studies that were created by the church. You just attend on Sunday (or Saturday) and go home.
(attended for 18 years, at least)
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/3/2008 3:05:50 PM
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magdaleine
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One thing I do like about the Catholic church is that Scripture is an important part of the service--part of the liturgy. I stayed at a monastery in Minnesota for a few days and attended the evening service (can't remember what they called it--it was the last of four services the monks had every day). The entire thing, about an hour, was Scripture only--Scripture sung, Scripture read, Scripture prayed. We Protestants could do worse than learn such things for our churches.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/3/2008 6:20:30 PM
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peculiar_lady2
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quote:
ORIGINAL: spitzu
Sarah, that was really fascinating. I normally do not enjoy history at all, but Biblical history and such I really love.
well, as I said I really love history (my favorite time period though is the Roman Empire time), but really I think it is vitally important to remember that the Bible isn't just a good book of good stories to teach us a lesson...it IS history, written down for us to read and learn FROM. One thing I think a lot of churches miss the mark on is that one fact...they forget that it is history and don't preach it like it is history. They don't look at the fundamental questions that I was always taught to look at first in reading any scripture....who was speaking, who were they speaking to, what kind of culture was it in reference to, (and when important) what kind of terrain/what place did it take place in. I think starting off with those four things answered is what sets the stage for us to fully understand what is really being said there. I mean think about it...if you were telling a story about cute little Mollie Mouse over there to someone who didn't even know you were talking about a dog and maybe they thought you were referring to a cat, then they are missing the crux of the foundation of the story. They may still think the story is cute, but they might not get the whole cuteness of it unless they know who it is about. KWIM?
OK....yeah....I really think history is sooooo vitally important to the Bible....can you tell this is a passion of mine.
quote:
One thing I do like about the Catholic church is that Scripture is an important part of the service--part of the liturgy.
I think too many churches (mostly pentocostal IMO) have lost something...they have lost the respect for the Word that used to be there in church...the reverence of it being the DIVINE and INSPIRED Word of GOD!!!! It is a revelation to us of God...who He was!!!! He thought so much of US that He had all these men throughout history write the important things down so we could know our story....our spiritual heritage!!! We may be adopted, but we know our history!!! I think some churches though miss that...they no longer give it the respect it really deserves. That's one thing I love about certain churches, esp around holiday times.....I think everyone should go to a Christmas Mass and a Christmas service at a Lutheran church at least once in their life. (I am sure there are a few more, but those are the two I have been to...so far...I want to try a new one this year!!!). There is a reverence for the Word in those kinds of services that really is lacking in some churches (like I said, esp pentecostal church's these days)
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/3/2008 10:23:54 PM
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isaacsmom
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quote:
well, as I said I really love history (my favorite time period though is the Roman Empire time),
Sarah, I took a course at OU that was solely the history of the Roman Empire. We had a really small class and our professor was a veteran archaeologist who had spent much of his career unearthing artifacts from the empire. You would've loved it! He had lots of slides, LOL.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/3/2008 10:32:43 PM
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Miss Giggles
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That would be a cool class.
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