RE: Kicka, part 3 (Full Version)

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magdaleine -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/11/2008 6:32:36 PM)

Regarding why cemeteries have been in churchyards, check out the following:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/fcod/fcod11.htm



nicole6598 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/11/2008 7:58:26 PM)

Ruth I belong to a charistmatic church and I don't think anything you said was offensive, you were just stating your opinion. To me, it felt like SOME people were trying to pick a part what what you believe and hold to be true, and I wasn't liking it. So you go girl! You stick by what you believe! NONE of us have it right, only Jesus. Anyway, just wanted to publicially say that to you, I have learnt alor from what you have written, so thanks for sharing!



uponeagleswings -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/12/2008 12:27:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sideways

I know the power of the Holy Spirit is very real and should not be denied, but is there ever a concern that people are caught up with something more then the Holy Spirit? And is that possibility ever addressed by the pastor or leadership?

I realize I'm not explaining myself very well, and I'm sorry if I've offended anyone.


The church I attended, I know at least one time where the pastor did several weeks of messages on the topic of false worship. I figure if people are getting caught up with their emotions, then that's between them and God. He certainly knows the difference.



ThursdaysChild -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/12/2008 2:46:09 AM)

Hey, ladies! I was listening to my favorite talk radio program last week and there was a program on infant baptism. They apparently had trouble with their e-mail so then the next day they responded to e-mails sent during the broadcast. It's very well presented and you'll learn a lot about infant baptism.

Go HERE and scroll down to the broadcast on Thursday, Aug. 7th called "How to Defend Infant Baptism". Then, after listening to that, scroll up to Friday, Aug. 8th, "Listener E-mail on Baptism".

Make sure you listen to Thursday's broadcast first since the questions are from people listening to that broadcast.

ERIN- I'm heading to your blog to check things out. I'm so happy for you.

Back on the funeral for the young man who'd committed suicide...That's just horrible! My SIL's father committed suicide. He'd been on morphine for YEARS due to a horrible car wreck that doctor's said he shouldn't have survived. He was tired of being on it (and how he was while on it) and decided to take himself off cold turkey. Our pastor did the service and did a beautiful job of bringing comfort to the family, rather than making them sit there and think the worst.



ChelseaRae -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/12/2008 3:02:49 PM)

Hey Ladies!!

I am so sorry I didn't get back sooner, our weekend family reunion turned into almost a week and a half at dh's parent's house at the lake! We had an amazing time though the weather was perfect!

I know the topic has kind of faded but I hope you don't mind me responding to your posts, I have been thinking about it all week!!! I formulated my response in a Word Document so instead of using quotes I will just make my response in pink. [:)]

Manda:

ChelseaRae, it is in Scripture. Believers were baptised in the NT. There is no record of anyone other than believers being baptised. And re communion, the only reason in Scripture for someone not receiving communion as a believer is if they're out of fellowship with a brother or sister in Christ and are not prepared to be reconciled before taking it.

What I meant here was that you believe that is what scripture says but there are countless other Protestant churches that have a different idea, they don’t believe that scripture says that same thing.

The major difference, as I see it, between Catholics and Protestants is that Protestants use Scripture only as the basis for their faith/teaching, but for Catholics it's Scripture PLUS sacred Catholic tradition passed down through the centuries. That's the bit I really struggle with (not wanting to debate here, just wanting to state my position).

Unfortunately Manda, no where in scripture does it say that you are to only use Scripture. There is no scripture that says that we are to ONLY use scripture as the basis for our faith. However, there are scriptures telling us that we are to hold on to the Traditions (both oral and written) that were passed on to us. (This is something we can't go into further discussion here I think... if you want to keep discussing it I would be happy to take it to the one stop thread!)


Sideways/Ruth:

You've raised some very good points, and I really enjoy your next post. When people say "The Word is preached and lived" often they mean, "preached and lived according to how I interpret it". Others may be turned off by perceived hypocrisy or legalism and rightly so.

We can't "know" that our specific interpretation is right and all others are wrong, and in fact, I'm not sure any one denomination has it perfect. But as long as the basics of the Christian faith are there, it doesn't matter a whole lot. That's why I don't get to hung up on minor doctrinal differences, but I do get really ticked off when one denomination thinks they are the end all be all of Christianity (and this includes Protestants who unfairly judge Catholics).
I disagree that we can’t “know” but this isn’t the thread to get into that, I would love to keep discussing this with you or anyone else in one of the one stop threads.


Magdaline:

How do you know that your interpretation of Scripture is correct? It is the job of the Holy Spirit to speak to us through God's Word--to help us understand it correctly. So I read my Bible, asking God and trusting him to give me the understanding I need and he does. Yes, there are many interpretations "out there." I read about one very famous TV evangelist who fell into disgrace who later wrote that he had never read the Bible through. He only knew selected parts. I'm thinking that that's more common than is acknowledged. Too many people base their beliefs on things other than the Bible (or on only certain parts). One part of the Bible will help to explain another part. To pull one verse or one chapter out and base doctrines on that without getting the entire picture from the whole Bible is dangerous.
Having the Holy Spirit speak to you through God’s Word to help you understand is all fine and good but then why is the Holy Spirit leading so many people in different directions? Do you think that all of this division of Christians is what God wanted? (I’m sure you agree that division was never in God’s plan but what I’m trying to ask is if the Holy Spirit is helping everyone to understand Scripture then why is everyone getting a different message?)

What does matter is that a church allows you to grow and thrive as a Christian, so that you can be a vital force in your community for Christ.
AMEN!!


Spitzu:
What makes it the right thing to do? What is the purpose of a church (church here meaning building/services) if not to feed and minister to the body and equip them to feed and minister to the world? If a church isn't feeding you (and the reason isn't because your heart is in the wrong place or something), then why would you be there at all? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding how you used the word "fed".
I think it was my fault, I probably wasn’t getting my point across effectively. I 100% believe that my Church was founded by Jesus but we can’t go there here. In my Church we are fed by the Eucharist, which imo is a different type of spiritual food, I don’t depend on a pastor or priest to feed me, I grow with Jesus.

I, too, disagree with the whole "one true church" thing. The "true church" is the body of Christ, which is comprised of people from many different denominations... catholics, baptists, non-denominational, lutherans, etc etc etc. What makes someone a part of the "true church" is their acceptance of God's merciful gift of salvation and their following of His Son, Jesus... not the physical building they attend once or twice a week, or the group of believers they claim to "belong" to or be a member of, or whether or not they speak in tongues or have blue carpet or red carpet or cover their heads or wear no makeup.

As I said to Ruth, if you are willing to further this in a one stop thread let me know, I would love to!!


Sarah:

I didn't copy a quote from you because it was too long but I definitely take issue with your interpretation there about the verses from Matthew. I was not taking it out of context and this isn’t the place to get into it further but I would love to discuss with you what I believe this passage really means, it is a far cry from what you posted here.

Donna:
I have always took that to apply to the book of Revelations as given to John, not the entire Bible. NOT that I think adding or subtracting to God's Word is good...just that I don't think that verse is talking about the entire Bible.

No idea how that relates to Catholicism.

That is exactly what we think too.

I know this is ridiculously long but I wanted to respond to everyone. I appreciated your descriptions of why you go to the church you do, I have often wondered how much study Protestants do in order to choose a Church. When I was a new Christian it really bothered me that there were so many different interpretations of the Bible, I didn't understand why God would allow His church to be so divided. When I was first studying I couldn't understand why if as Christians we are all told to love everyone that didn't include other Christian denominations;I have honestly experienced MUCH more hostility from other Christians about being Catholic than anyone else.

I honestly would like to discuss whether or not we can know if there is one true church, I don't know if we can do that here but if anyone is interested this is a good beginning on why I believe the Catholic Church, it will give you some background and give us a starting point.

Also, here is the link to the Scripture and Tradition link I mentioned earlier, I don't remember if I linked it or not.

Sarah, I don't know if you are interested in furthering a discussion about Peter and the Rock but if you are here is something you might find interesting as far as what I believe.


Thank you again ladies, this has been a truly enlightening discussion for me!



spitzu -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/12/2008 3:33:27 PM)

I don't think there's much more for me to discuss, IMO. The true church is people who accept Jesus as their salvation and that's that. [:D][;)]



isaacsmom -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/12/2008 3:48:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: spitzu

I don't think there's much more for me to discuss, IMO. The true church is people who accept Jesus as their salvation and that's that. [:D][;)]


Ditto! [:)]



magdaleine -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/12/2008 4:43:47 PM)

quote:

Having the Holy Spirit speak to you through God’s Word to help you understand is all fine and good but then why is the Holy Spirit leading so many people in different directions? Do you think that all of this division of Christians is what God wanted? (I’m sure you agree that division was never in God’s plan but what I’m trying to ask is if the Holy Spirit is helping everyone to understand Scripture then why is everyone getting a different message?)

I don't think God is against differences of understanding. Paul even talks about that in Romans when he discusses how some people believe they should observe the sabbaths and others that they shouldn't; and how some believe they shouldn't eat meat and others that it's okay. Paul discusses these differing interpretations and does not chastise them for seeing things differently but rather says that we are to live together in harmony despite these differences and to give honour to those who disagree with our interpretation. When we are told that we are all different members of one body, we usually understand that to refer to individuals but I suspect it also refers to congregations or even denominations. Each congregation, each denomination plays a different role in the living out of the gospel in the universal church. What God DOESN'T want is animosity that different Christian groups express to each other.



isaacsmom -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/12/2008 4:55:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: magdaleine

quote:

Having the Holy Spirit speak to you through God’s Word to help you understand is all fine and good but then why is the Holy Spirit leading so many people in different directions? Do you think that all of this division of Christians is what God wanted? (I’m sure you agree that division was never in God’s plan but what I’m trying to ask is if the Holy Spirit is helping everyone to understand Scripture then why is everyone getting a different message?)

I don't think God is against differences of understanding. Paul even talks about that in Romans when he discusses how some people believe they should observe the sabbaths and others that they shouldn't; and how some believe they shouldn't eat meat and others that it's okay. Paul discusses these differing interpretations and does not chastise them for seeing things differently but rather says that we are to live together in harmony despite these differences and to give honour to those who disagree with our interpretation. When we are told that we are all different members of one body, we usually understand that to refer to individuals but I suspect it also refers to congregations or even denominations. Each congregation, each denomination plays a different role in the living out of the gospel in the universal church. What God DOESN'T want is animosity that different Christian groups express to each other.


Very good post, Magdaleine.

quote:

Having the Holy Spirit speak to you through God’s Word to help you understand is all fine and good but then why is the Holy Spirit leading so many people in different directions?


Because the Holy Spirit knows us better than anyone else knows us and knows our strengths and weaknesses. What one person may struggle with, another may not. Where one person is strong, another may need growth. So He leads us in a direction (and hopefully we are receptive) where he can do the most through us. So we are not all in one congregation, even though we are one body. It is sad that there is so much animosity between Christian groups. That is not of God. That is Satan seeking to destroy.



TwinCityGirl -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/15/2008 12:31:12 AM)

Bringing this over from another thread where someone said:

"there's no such thing as a 'struggling' farmer here in the US"


Leads me to a thought. If you personally are doing alright financially in your own household, do you assume everybody else is, too?

My husband about fainted when he and my cousin (who is in his 50's now) were talking about the economy and how GREAT it is. Yeah, great for my cousin for a couple of reasons (investing at key times in the past, family money, etc.). I can think of a whole bunch of people that I personally know (and yes, some farmers!) who are struggling, so I really have to wonder:

When summing up whether the economy/current life situation is good or bad, do you mainly go on what's happening in your house, or do you look further outside than that? Or other?

(And for some people, maybe they can honestly say their house is the only house that matters so that's what they use as their litmus test? I'm a middle child. I can't relate to that.)

Just checking.

Jeanie



magdaleine -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/15/2008 12:56:53 AM)

quote:

If you personally are doing alright financially in your own household, do you assume everybody else is, too?

No, probably because I grew up in poverty while the rest of the world seemed rich to me, but I think there is a tendency to do that, not only as individuals but in a larger context. For instance, in considering the Last Days and those things that will lead to it, I see people interpreting those signs through what is happening in their own country rather than having a larger world view. As religious freedoms become more restricted in North America, for instance, people see this as a sign of the end, forgetting that other places in the world currently and in the past have had far more restrictions than have ever existed in North America.



KatMack -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/15/2008 8:21:02 AM)

Not knowing the full context of the quote, my thought would be that on a global scale there are VERY few struggling families in America. Yes, many of us fight tooth and nail to make ends meet, but when you compare the lifestyle of the poorest of Americans, it's nothing compared to how the poor in other countries live.

--Kat



pumpkin -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/15/2008 8:28:32 AM)

Jeanie,
I definitely don't just look at my own house/finances when considering the state of the economy! That's a little short sighted. =)

While we *are* doing much much better than we were when we first got married (5 years ago) I know without a doubt that the economy is worse today than it was then.

the only reason that our finances seem to be so much better is because of tons of prayer that God would help us to manage our finances well, and He has!

When we married, I had my finances totally under control. David was working on it, but really didn't have a handle on it. Lots of bad things happened within the first 6 months of our marriage, financially speaking. In that time I got very strict with our finances, and it stayed that way until things got a little better. I still keep a very close eye on our finances... if I didn't, we could be in trouble quickly.

I always just think things like "what world is he living in?" when someone says something like the conversation you mentioned... thinking that the economy is good because you are doing well, is.... wrong.



lexie -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/15/2008 8:54:08 AM)

quote:

When summing up whether the economy/current life situation is good or bad, do you mainly go on what's happening in your house, or do you look further outside than that? Or other?


I grew up here in Toronto with a father who is a teacher and a mother who was a SAHM. Now I live in Toronto with a husband who is a teacher and I am a SAHM. So my life has always pretty much been the same financially. However, we currently live in an area of Toronto that is low income. We made the choice to live here because the rent is cheap and the neighbourhood has everything we need. It is perfect for us while we save money for a house. But I see and meet people every day who are struggling to provide for their families. There is no upward mobility for a lot of people in this neighbourhood.

As well, Dh grew up in what is considered poverty here. 10 people in a three room house. 8 kids in one bedroom, boys in one bed, girls in the other no matter what your age. Outdoor kitchen, outdoor bathroom. No running water, no electricity. But compared to everyone else where they lived, they weren't poor it was normal. Dh says all the time that they didn't know they were poor, and that they were extremely happy.

But my husband looks at poverty here in North America and can't really understand it. When he heard that statistic that 36 million people in the US live in poverty (which is more than the population of Canada) and 1.6 million people in Canada, he was floored. Even though he studied economics in university and he theoretically understands it all, when he sees it happening before his eyes, he can't understand on a personal level how it gets to that.

I think it is hard to understand how people are struggling if you don't really see it on a day to day basis. My MIL has an incredible story of sacrificing EVERYTHING to give her children a better future and now, 27 year later, she's pretty much right back where she started. Anyone can look at my MIL and think that she is doing well because she has a home and nice clothes, but she's not even one paycheque away from poverty, she is there. And this is a woman who worked 2-3 jobs, 60-70 hours a week for 20 years.



Miss Giggles -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/15/2008 9:34:55 AM)

There are a lot of people that do have that attitude. I see it on the personal finance board that I am on, those that are struggling (some really through no fault of their own) are told some platitude about they aren't trying hard enough or something. So of course the ones that are struggling quit posting and it seems like everyone is doing great. [&:]



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/15/2008 9:45:39 AM)

quote:

Sarah:

I didn't copy a quote from you because it was too long but I definitely take issue with your interpretation there about the verses from Matthew. I was not taking it out of context and this isn’t the place to get into it further but I would love to discuss with you what I believe this passage really means, it is a far cry from what you posted here.

I don't see why you take issue with that interpretation...I posted many links, some even from a Catholic site (specifically found one just because of the convo here). All I did was tell the history of the area and when you look at the history the context of it is very clear.....but anyway, the conversation has moved on so I will too



Mrs.Wifey -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/15/2008 10:36:28 AM)

quote:

I know the power of the Holy Spirit is very real and should not be denied, but is there ever a concern that people are caught up with something more then the Holy Spirit? And is that possibility ever addressed by the pastor or leadership?


Yes, there is. The Vineyard church is notorious for the "Toronto Blessing", which was, IMO, not of the Holy Spirit. John Wimber(head honcho of the Vineyard) did address the problem and even went so far as to sever that particular church from the organization and threatened to do so with several other churches who were heading the same direction.
quote:


Leads me to a thought. If you personally are doing alright financially in your own household, do you assume everybody else is, too?


We most certainly don't. There are families in our church(and several thousand more in our community) who are struggling because of our current economy and I know we(our family) has been giving more to help "cover the gap" for those families. Our church has a deal with a company where we can buy pounds of food for pennies on the dollar, and we give specifically to that program.

However, we do feel that our primary goal is to care for our own family and we won't be stopping things like saving money, or investing for retirement just because our economy is doing poorly and other people are not always making ends meet.



lexie -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/15/2008 10:44:19 AM)

quote:

Yes, there is. The Vineyard church is notorious for the "Toronto Blessing", which was, IMO, not of the Holy Spirit. John Wimber(head honcho of the Vineyard) did address the problem and even went so far as to sever that particular church from the organization and threatened to do so with several other churches who were heading the same direction.


The church that my pastor was brought up in was severed from our group of churches over this particular issue. People were getting so caught up with the idea of the Holy Spirit that it began to take on non-biblical characteristics. A refusal on the part of the church to address the issue led to people separating and then the main church leaving the group of churches.



McGuinessMagee -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/15/2008 7:20:57 PM)

It is very easy, when you're living comfortably and everyone in your suburb is living comfortably and no-one you know has ever had to miss a meal or had anything terribly traumatic happen in their lives, to look at the country you live in and say everything really is fine.

I know I could do that so easily...

... except I work in an area with a poor socio-economic demographic.

I work with people who cry in front of me because they lost a job which was barely keeping them above water and their ex-boss won't release their severence certificate, so they're left where they can't get any govt benefits to help them through until they either: get another job which will barely keep them afloat; they manage to sort out their issues with the ex-boss and get that certificate; or they serve an eight week interim period because, without that certificate, officially they have left their place of employment without justifiable cause.

And, before they lost that job, they were just managing to buy food and put enough petrol in the car to get them to work.

And, we live in countries where living in a shanty you've put up because that's all you can afford is actually illegal, so saying that things are so much worse in other countries really isn't a real argument. Sometimes it's actually worse.

Where, in a poorer country, someone may be able to put up a shanty until they can do better. Here they either make the grade with our higher living standards or they live on the streets.

Kylie[sm=silly.gif]



TwinCityGirl -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/17/2008 7:15:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McGuinessMagee

Where, in a poorer country, someone may be able to put up a shanty until they can do better. Here they either make the grade with our higher living standards or they live on the streets.


Kylie, isn't that sad. It reminds me of a conversation I had last summer with one of my husband's relatives. It wasn't a bad conversation but basically I asked her what should happen to people who have served their time in prison and have been set free. Where should they live? And she was saying "Not on my block!" and I was saying, "Oh, okay, I understand that, but they.have.to.live.SOMEWHERE." Now, the example was specifically for someone who had been in prison for child molestation, and I am not saying I would fling open my front door and say "Hey, everybody that's done that and is set free now -- come live next to me on my block!" but then again, those people have to live SOMEWHERE. We can't just be all ignorant about it and be all "Not on my block" -- ummm, okay, but if a person has paid their debt to society, what do you do with those people?

I mean, in reality, those people are living SOMEWHERE, even if it's not on your block or my block. If they haven't been sentenced to death then they will be released and living SOMEWHERE. It doesn't have to be an easy pill for law-abiding society to swallow.

Jeanie



daughter_of_faith -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/17/2008 9:36:17 PM)

Jeanie, your comment reminded me of an news article I read this week. Will have to try to find it (as I read it on my cell phone).

Anyway, the basic gist of the story was this man in Pennsylvania was convicted of being involved with a church sex cult. He had done horrific things to children...don't think I need to say more than that. The man went to prison in 1975 (before Megan's law was passed). He is now out of prison and can live wherever he likes without registering as a sex offender. They can't retro-act a law to include him. Also, he has served his entire sentence so he isn't even on parole. [8|]

How do you ladies feel about this? Do you think more of these cases will happen in the future? What can we do about it (aside from being hyper-vigilant as most of us are anyways)?



McGuinessMagee -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/18/2008 4:02:57 AM)

Honestly, I'd much rather the paedophile I was aware of than the one you don't know about. There is a certain safety, and ability to make it safe for my children, in knowing.

I see a LOT of newly released men and women in my work. At some point you have to let go of what they have done or you cannot help them to move on from it.

Kylie[sm=silly.gif]



manda59 -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/18/2008 5:02:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: McGuinessMagee
Honestly, I'd much rather the paedophile I was aware of than the one you don't know about. There is a certain safety, and ability to make it safe for my children, in knowing.


Absolutlely!! I had a post all typed up last night saying something similar, but lost it.

I was basically saying that the ones you really need to watch out for are more the ones you don't know about, rather than the ones you do. The ones who haven't been caught yet pose a far greater danger. The ones who may live in your street, go to your church etc

Demonising the ones who've already been convicted could actually lead to a false sense of security.
The fact is that our children could potentially be at risk from anyone - including family, family friends etc (in fact, the incidence of sexual abuse of children is highest with family and family friends - people naturally closes to the child). That's why it's vital to start teaching our children how to keep themselves safe from a very early age.



Mrs.Wifey -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/18/2008 11:54:18 AM)

quote:

The fact is that our children could potentially be at risk from anyone - including family, family friends etc (in fact, the incidence of sexual abuse of children is highest with family and family friends - people naturally closes to the child). That's why it's vital to start teaching our children how to keep themselves safe from a very early age.


Exactly. I always recommend THIS book, and just about anything else Gavin de Becker has written. His books on fear are also wonderful...



danas_mom -> RE: Kicka, part 3 (8/18/2008 11:55:32 AM)

quote:

I asked her what should happen to people who have served their time in prison and have been set free. Where should they live? And she was saying "Not on my block!"


Really puts a point to the scripture about 'what you have done to the least of these...' doesn't it?



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