RE: California ruling (Full Version)

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Sunnymom -> RE: California ruling (3/7/2008 5:03:58 PM)

Ahnold has spoken- we can all go back to bed now.[8D]

quote:

The governor issued the following stern statement today regarding the recent ruling by the state's Second District Court of Appeals.

"Every California child deserves a quality education and parents should have the right to decide what's best for their children. Parents should not be penalized for acting in the best interests of their children's education. This outrageous ruling must be overturned by the courts and if the courts don't protect parents' rights then, as elected officials, we will."



Kath -> RE: California ruling (3/7/2008 5:38:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunnymom

Ahnold has spoken- we can all go back to bed now.[8D]

quote:

The governor issued the following stern statement today regarding the recent ruling by the state's Second District Court of Appeals.

"Every California child deserves a quality education and parents should have the right to decide what's best for their children. Parents should not be penalized for acting in the best interests of their children's education. This outrageous ruling must be overturned by the courts and if the courts don't protect parents' rights then, as elected officials, we will."




I [sm=heart.gif] The Terminator! [sm=kisslips.gif]



shadowspring -> RE: California ruling (3/7/2008 5:41:29 PM)

Me too!

May this turn out to result in stronger protections for home schooling families. That's my prayer.



bzirk -> RE: California ruling (3/9/2008 10:16:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: shadowspring

Me too!

May this turn out to result in stronger protections for home schooling families. That's my prayer.


I have a feeling that's exactly what's going to happen. Plus, if the courts do not clarify or overturn this case, it may actually be the catalyst for establishing homeschooling as a right at the federal level. HSLDA and concerned homeschoolers in general will ensure this is taken to the Supreme Court if necessary.

One thing that actually works in our favor is the protests being launched by Muslims. If the court has any sympathy toward them, and I believe (conservative as the court is) that it does, then that will only help homeschoolers.

Frankly, I love it when the left shoots itself in the foot while bending over backwards to be politically correct. [sm=biggrin.gif]



Sideways -> RE: California ruling (3/9/2008 10:23:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk
Frankly, I love it when the left shoots itself in the foot while bending over backwards to be politically correct. [sm=biggrin.gif]


Now, that's funny, 'cause I know way more republicans who are anti-HSing then democrats.



shadowspring -> RE: California ruling (3/9/2008 10:36:38 AM)

Well, Sideways, that may be true for you personally, but the Democrat party platform only makes mention of supporting public education, while the Republican pary platform supports the rights of parents to choose the method of education that they deem best.

Officially and on the public record then, the Republican party supports the right to home school and the Democratic party does not.

I have a super-politically active friend who can supply me with links to both party platforms, if you want. [:)]

However it has always been a puzzle to me that, considering the Democratic party's claim to support freedom of choice, that they have not been champions of home schooling.

But as they say, money talks. The public school teacher's union is a huge contributor to the Democratic party, and a public promoter of Democratic candidates at every level. It would be foolish to bite the hand that feeds you.



Sideways -> RE: California ruling (3/9/2008 10:49:47 AM)

If you have a non-biased source stating that the Democratic party has an official anti-HS stance, then fire away.

If they have not made a point to campaign in favor of HSing, that may just mean that they have other issues they are focusing on. (There's a lot going on in the world right now, and it may not be on their minds.)



bzirk -> RE: California ruling (3/9/2008 11:08:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sideways

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk
Frankly, I love it when the left shoots itself in the foot while bending over backwards to be politically correct. [sm=biggrin.gif]


Now, that's funny, 'cause I know way more republicans who are anti-HSing then democrats.


So are you saying that left=democrat?

I guess I don't see it that way and never have -- especially not today. [:D]



Roberta_ -> RE: California ruling (3/9/2008 11:10:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kath

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunnymom

Ahnold has spoken- we can all go back to bed now.[8D]

quote:

The governor issued the following stern statement today regarding the recent ruling by the state's Second District Court of Appeals.

"Every California child deserves a quality education and parents should have the right to decide what's best for their children. Parents should not be penalized for acting in the best interests of their children's education. This outrageous ruling must be overturned by the courts and if the courts don't protect parents' rights then, as elected officials, we will."




I [sm=heart.gif] The Terminator! [sm=kisslips.gif]


I find that interesting. I wasn't too impressed when he made governor. Afterall, he is a self-described "financial conservative and social liberal." So I'm glad to hear him make that statement.

O.T., Sunnymom- I love your av! I saw it once on a bumper sticker and have been looking for one for my car ever since.



bzirk -> RE: California ruling (3/9/2008 11:18:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sideways

If you have a non-biased source stating that the Democratic party has an official anti-HS stance, then fire away.

If they have not made a point to campaign in favor of HSing, that may just mean that they have other issues they are focusing on. (There's a lot going on in the world right now, and it may not be on their minds.)


There are anti-homeschoolers in the Republican party as well as the Democratic party, but the Democrats tend to align themselves with such groups as the NEA who has a history of being against homeschooling. That's just one reason some may think Democrats are not for homeschooling.



shadowspring -> RE: California ruling (3/9/2008 5:28:27 PM)

quote:

If you have a non-biased source stating that the Democratic party has an official anti-HS stance, then fire away.


I did not write that they had an official anti-HS stance. Not sure how you got that from my post. [sm=sadquestion.gif]

I wrote that they do not have an official stance on education beyond supporting public education.

Here is a link to the official Democratic Party* platform. Home schooling is not mentioned as a viable option. Private school is only mentioned as an unacceptable place for public funds via vouchers allowing parents more choice in education. It is clear that the only education the Democratic platform is concerned with is public education:

Democratic Party platform

pp 38-42 on my Adobe browser

*while not entirely unbiased, I hope it is an acceptable source of information for this discussion. [;)]



Sideways -> RE: California ruling (3/10/2008 10:21:46 AM)

Thanks for the post and link. So, they work to support PS, but don't address HS at all. *shrug* Okay, then.

Besides this wacko California court ruling (which stands little chance of holding up), are there any states that don't allow HSing? What would you like to see the Democratic party do in regards to HSing?

I'm not sure how see how the "liberal left" is actively working against you in any way, other then staying quiet on HS and working to support public schools (who are not your enemy).



lifeisgoodwgod -> RE: California ruling (3/10/2008 10:47:13 AM)

I really have a hard time understanding liberals. Save the whales, kill the babies, teach same sex marriage, sex ed (in an inappropriate way) homosexuality, encourage welfare, encourge sexual behavior through entertainment, etc. But send our children to the wolves? I go back to Dr. Jay Wile's research that says that a parent's education does not have anything to do with how well our children succeed in homeschool. This research is available on the Apologia website under conference schedule and handouts. I heard him speak last year and it really made me feel better especially when I only have 2 years college. I have observed public school teachers since my dd was in school for 4 years and can tell you I am as educated as most of them. I know I have more common sense. And I am God led as most of them are money led. Teach to the test and your job and salary will be secure. I teach retention as most public schools teach to pass the test. The enemy has been at work in California and is sitting back and laughing about all this, but God will prevail and make something good come from this. You just watch.[:)]



Jenny-Fair -> RE: California ruling (3/10/2008 11:13:27 AM)

quote:

working to support public schools (who are not your enemy).

Working to support PSs I don't have much of a problem with. Working to support the NEA, however, is a totally different matter! The NEA is not 'public schools' and they DO have an extremely hard-line anti-homeschooling platform.



shadowspring -> RE: California ruling (3/10/2008 2:43:33 PM)

So true, Jen. Every year the NEA passes a resolution condemning home schooling and calling for its eradication.

(Anyone interested can probably find it by googling "NEA annual resolutions" and reading the very verbiose declarations they come up with at their annual conventions. A former ps teacher told me this happens every year, though it has been at least five years since she has attended one.)

Not sure why Sideways thinks I hate Democrats. [&:] It's kind of amusing though. I really don't have time to hate anyone. [:D]

What would I like to see the Dems do for home schooling? Come out in favor of it, of course! Support the rights of parents to direct the upbringing of their children, including the choice to teach them at home.

It is a position that is certainly consistent with the Dems of my grandmother's day. And it seems with their strong emphasis on tolerance and acceptance of personal liberties and choices in so many others, it would be natural for today's Dems to support home schooling.

But they don't.

Like I wrote before- money talks. You don't cross the people who are a main source of your income, in this case, the public school establishment. It's just the way it is- I didn't make it that way, so please don't be angry with me. I just pointed it out.[8|]



ronni62 -> RE: California ruling (3/12/2008 2:52:55 PM)

Just wanted to tell you all what was said on our local (Iowa) news about the CA ruling just 2 nights ago (on the 10th). First, all they said was that it was now illegal to hs in CA, no mention of what CA's governor said. Glad to learn he's taking a stand for parental rights.

Second, our news reporter interviewed a local homeschool mom, who just happens to be a certified teacher, to find out the impact the ruling could have on Iowa homeschoolers. The hs mom stated for the record that she thought allowing only certified teachers to homeschool "made sense". [:@] Now, of course, this has angered me somewhat, as I feel she should have stood up for the rest of us. Some of us actually have more education than teachers, but have chosen to use that education to hs and pass the benefits on to our children. Why would I now want to go back to school to also get a teaching certificate? I'm sure these comments and the way it was presented on the news will now have someone here up in arms that Iowa doesn't have a law like California's and try to push for one. I can't believe that this hs mom voiced this opinion on the news. I guess you can take the teacher out of the public school, but you can't take the public school out of the teacher.

Thanks-just had to get this out.



outragedincolorado -> RE: California ruling (3/12/2008 11:18:52 PM)

Is that court for real? Have I missed something or has the California Judicial system turned communist? Our rights as parents are being attacked continually. Why are they afraid of homeschoolers? Is it becaue we are shining light on their failures as educators. No, they do that themselves. I homeschool to protect my children from teachers that sexually and physically assault their students and from indoctrination of beliefs contrary to what I believe, not to mention a higher quality of education.

Look, I have a friend with 7 year old triplets. She put her children in a charter school thinking that it would be better than the only other public school we have in our small town. You know what happened? The teacher assaulted her boy by forcing him into his chair so hard that the chair slipped from beneath him and his face hit the desk causing his front tooth to be knocked out. When the parents came and confronted the principle that morning, they were told that the teacher was removed from school grounds when in fact she was allowed to teach until the end of the day.

So tell me, how can it possibly be wrong to take my kids education into my own hands? I am quitting a great job to be able to stay home to do this.

We have to fight...for our right...to HOMESCHOOL! California, there are so many people here in Colorado that support you on this and want to help you win the fight. I hope that on April 11 when homeschoolers meet at the Capitol that this year will be the biggest turn out ever.



outragedincolorado -> RE: California ruling (3/12/2008 11:32:33 PM)

By the way, tell everyone you know to sign the petition at HSLDA.ORG to overturn the ruling that the Californial Court made on homeschooling. Tell your parents, siblings, friends, aunts, uncles, grandparents and anyone else that supports homeschooling. By the way, my friend pulled her kids out of that school and is seriously considering homeschooling.



shadowspring -> RE: California ruling (3/13/2008 9:11:29 AM)

What an awful story about your friend's child! I am so sorry that happened to him.

I signed the petition. And yes, we do need to fight back, and pray, pray, pray!



bzirk -> RE: California ruling (3/13/2008 7:48:47 PM)

Frankly, I'm not surprised by this ruling out of California. That's the state where such lovely legal actions as Fields v. Palmdale School District had to be mounted for parents to retain their rights, and yet sadly, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (Federal Court) ruled in that case that once parents dropped their kids at the schoolhouse door, the parents ceded their rights about what kids are told and not told. If that ruling doesn't send a chill up your back, I don't know what will. With that kind of carte blanche' given to the school, is it any wonder that a judge would find it moral high ground to require that the government be the arbiter of who should and should not be teaching the children and hang parental rights?

Any homeschoolers out there who think this fight is over, need to think again. In fact, we've been having a honeymoon period. I think the powers that be are going to run at us again as they did in the late 70s and early 80s -- probably worse. Now they really know what they've got to lose.

I'd like to think that capitalism wins out -- since homeschooling for the most part has been proven to be generally superior to all other forms of schooling, and certainly can generally (I said generally and not totally) turn out a better class of worker and therefore should be what people want to aspire to and certainly not fight. But this country is moving toward socialistic thinking to such an alarming rate, I don't think that's going to win the day. So it's going to come down to a fight.



elliemaejune -> RE: California ruling (3/15/2008 11:53:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunnymom

The HSLDA doesn't advocate for unschoolers or relaxed schoolers either, which I think is sad, and I can't support that, since they don't support me.


This isn't true at all. I was a unschooler/relaxed hser and a member of HSLDA for many years.



elliemaejune -> RE: California ruling (3/16/2008 12:04:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sen10tious

quote:

ORIGINAL: DenimDiva

I haven't read the article mostly because I read the posts here first and I am quite frankly offended by the view that so many take on California and it's residents.

Point of fact: California's homeschool environment is one of the worst in the country. You have to either be part of a private school or employ a certified teacher. For years, Californians have gotten around the "private school" thing by either filing as their own private school (which was only as safe as the whim of the Superintendent of Public Instruction,) or by joining a private school. Some of these private schools are similar to what people in other states might term a co-op, but allow the families to pursue "independent study." This "Independent Study" is a minefield waiting to blow and frankly, I'm a little surprised it had taken this long.

It is too bad you are offended, but Californians do have a poor law and I hope that those who believe in parental rights rally together and change it like so many other parents in so many other states have done.


It is not true that CA hsers have to enroll their dc in a private school such as Sunland Christian School. CA hsers have been legally filing their own private school affidavits each year for over 30 years. Terry Neven, owner of Sunland, pretty much stands alone in his POV which is the same as yours, that hsers must enroll with a private school like his. The legislature has recognized the legality of hsers filing their own affidavits, and most county district attorneys have, as well, not to mention the current state superintendent of schools.

Point of Fact: I started hsing in 1982 in California, and was always glad that I did so when I read about the many restrictions and regulations and requirements that other states have. There is no way that I would categorize California's homeschool environment as "one of the worst in the country." One reason it has been so good is the current private school law (not unlike Texas and Illinois), and *that* is the reason that people have been unwilling to tackle legislation up until now: What looks like a good law (and IMHO the only good law is one that gives parents/guardians the right to teach their dc at home without any government interferance/accountabily at all) going in could come out the other side being as restrictive as PA's...or worse. Today hsers have no requirements other than to file a private school affidavit in October each year: no testing, no requirements to graduate, no minimum school days, no nothin'.

With everyone all fired up over this court case, it is slightly conceivable that the legislature *might* be able to pass acceptable legislation. OTOH, an appeal might rule that hsers are the equivalent of private schools, and then we'd have it made in the shade just like Texas and Illinois.



sen10tious -> RE: California ruling (3/16/2008 11:09:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: elliemaejune
Terry Neven, owner of Sunland, pretty much stands alone in his POV which is the same as yours, that hsers must enroll with a private school like his.


This is an old topic, but since these things can hang around I guess I should clear it up that that is not my point of view. I know they don't have to enroll in a school like Sunland. My POV is that Californians have gotten around the "must be enrolled" law by filing their home as a private school. They have built up a lot of precedent for a family filing as its own private school, but that remains just precedent. Just because no one has wanted to upset the apple cart it does not mean that it can't be tipped.



elliemaejune -> RE: California ruling (3/16/2008 11:57:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sen10tious

quote:

ORIGINAL: elliemaejune
Terry Neven, owner of Sunland, pretty much stands alone in his POV which is the same as yours, that hsers must enroll with a private school like his.


This is an old topic, but since these things can hang around I guess I should clear it up that that is not my point of view. I know they don't have to enroll in a school like Sunland. My POV is that Californians have gotten around the "must be enrolled" law by filing their home as a private school. They have built up a lot of precedent for a family filing as its own private school, but that remains just precedent. Just because no one has wanted to upset the apple cart it does not mean that it can't be tipped.


Thanks for clearing that up. I hope I didn't offend you with my comments. :-)

Even so, HSLDA and most others do not consider individuals filing an affidavit "getting around" the law. They consider it to be a viable, legal option.



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