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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/24/2008 7:34:53 AM
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facedown
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figmentpez
quote:
The wording of your question is not clear to me. However, let us take Paul as an example. Paul was a Jew of Jews, but Jesus Christ still said that Paul was persecuting Him. Up until Paul had faith in Jesus Christ, he had been following a false god. Regardless of all the truth that Paul knew about Judaism, and all that he had done right according to the Law, he still did not know the true God, and was not following Him.
so, as a jew of jews, he (paul) was/is representative of the community as a whole? they all rejected god, had no faith in god? they were all following a false god? they didn't know the "true god"? etc....
are you suggesting that the teachings of marcion of sinope were correct in scope?
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/24/2008 4:48:55 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
figmentpez
quote:
The wording of your question is not clear to me. However, let us take Paul as an example. Paul was a Jew of Jews, but Jesus Christ still said that Paul was persecuting Him. Up until Paul had faith in Jesus Christ, he had been following a false god. Regardless of all the truth that Paul knew about Judaism, and all that he had done right according to the Law, he still did not know the true God, and was not following Him.
so, as a jew of jews, he (paul) was/is representative of the community as a whole? they all rejected god, had no faith in god? they were all following a false god? they didn't know the "true god"? etc....
are you suggesting that the teachings of marcion of sinope were correct in scope?
Paul can hardly be considered representative of the community as a whole, because there were Jews who immediately believed in Jesus Christ, and did not persecute the Church before converting. However, Paul is representative of at least a portion of the Jewish community, who were following a man-made idol, one whom they called "LORD" and whom they attributed the true God's accomplishments, but was no more real than the golden calf created by the Israelites in the desert.
I'm still waiting for anyone to answer this question I posed in post #15 on the first page (see that post for full context):
"When the Israelites made a golden calf (Exodus 32) and worshiped it, were they worshiping the same God that Moses was up on the mountain speaking with?"
As for "marcion of sinope", I had to look him up. Apparently he taught that the "god" of the OT was a different god than Jesus Christ, or something like that, and rejected the OT completely. I most certainly do not agree with him. The prophecy of the OT is the way by which Jesus is recognized as the Christ and the Son of God is the very image of the Father, among may other reasons why the OT is not only true and relevant, but that God the same as He always has been.
I am not saying that the OT is in any way false, or depicts a false God. What I am saying is that anyone who constructs a "god" from the OT scriptures that is contrary to God as revealed in Jesus Christ, then that person has concocted a lie. Just like Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses can take New Testament scripture and twist it until the "god" they worship is an idol, so have Jews who reject Jesus Christ twisted scripture until they have an idol which they have called by the name of the LORD. It doesn't matter how many things they get right about God, if they look at Jesus Christ and say "that is not my god", then their idea of God must be false, because it does not match up with the very image of God.
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/24/2008 9:51:11 PM
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Dred
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quote:
"When the Israelites made a golden calf (Exodus 32) and worshiped it, were they worshiping the same God that Moses was up on the mountain speaking with?"
Well, I think the answer to that question has to be "no." This is significant because they designated* the same god as YHWH just as many people of other religions designate "the creator of the universe" as their God.
*He took this from their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool and made it into a molten calf; and they said, "This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt."
--Exodus 32:4
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/25/2008 9:20:34 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Their lack of faith in Jesus does not mean they worship a false God, it means they are attempting to worship God while in a state of sin.
The refusal of the Jews to believe that Jesus was and is the great "I AM" goes beyond worshipping God "in a state of sin".
It is a rejection of the witness of God the Father to His Son, as well as a rejection of the witness of Christ to Himself, therefore it is making God to be a liar. That is most emphatically not worship! How can a man say he worships God, when at the same time he calls Him a liar?
God the Father witnessed to the Deity of His Son in the OT (Ps. 45:6-8) and reiterated it in the NT (Heb. 1:6-14). Therefore the Jews are without excuse.
I agree that is not worship, which is the point of God's rejection of their attempts to worship Him.
quote:
Therefore unless men worship Christ as both Lord and God (Jn. 20:28), with the Father and the Spirit (Rev. 4:9-11; 5:11-14), they worship another god.
To those who rejected Him ,Christ said "Ye are of your father, the devil". And all religions that reject Christ as both Lord and God, are indeed of the devil. The truth may sound harsh, but that is the reality, since one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Phil. 2:9-11). One thing we have to keep in mind is that there is a difference between unacceptable worshhip of the one true God, and worshipping of a false god.
Yes it is true that their real father is satan because they reject God, but the God revealed in Jewish scripture; the God who is recognized for setting the Jewish nation apart; the God of their patriarch Abraham; the God who spoke through their prophets; the God whose law they seek to obey; the God whose worship practices they seek to follow is the one true God.
For lack of a better term, God is a person with a distinct and unique nature and character. The Jews "worship" that person who called Yaweh, Elohim, the God of Abraham. They do not worship baal, or some other false god that goes by the same name (as do the mormons). They are attempting to worship the one true God, but they are doing so in a state of sin resulting from their disbelief. Ultimately their unbelief of all that God reveals about Himself demonstrates that their true father is satan, but the God that they attempt to worship - even if they fail to do so acceptably because of their sin - is the one true God. If disbelief is tantamount to worshipping a false god, then every time they failed to believe God's warnings about their disobedience that ultimately led to the dispersion, put them in a state of worshipping a false god. But that is not what God accused them of, nor is it what He told them to repent of (although some of them were actually worshipping false gods too). He told them to leave their false gods, and end their disobedience so that their worhsip would be acceptable to Him.
If their attempt to worship God was actually worship offered to a false God, then God was calling Himself a false god, for He told them to end their sin so their worship of Him would be acceptable.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 3/25/2008 9:31:10 PM >
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Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/25/2008 9:50:20 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
I am not saying that the OT is in any way false, or depicts a false God. What I am saying is that anyone who constructs a "god" from the OT scriptures that is contrary to God as revealed in Jesus Christ, then that person has concocted a lie. Just like Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses can take New Testament scripture and twist it until the "god" they worship is an idol, so have Jews who reject Jesus Christ twisted scripture until they have an idol which they have called by the name of the LORD. It doesn't matter how many things they get right about God, if they look at Jesus Christ and say "that is not my god", then their idea of God must be false, because it does not match up with the very image of God.
figmentPez,
what about Paul's self-description in 1Timothy 1:12,13:
quote:
12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
Paul says that his rejection of Jesus was disbelief and ignorance. No where does he suggest that he was worshhipping a false god. In fact, the ignorance and disbelief statement suggests the nature of his response to the one true God.
Add to this, Paul's concern for the Jews in Romans 10:1-5:
quote:
Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Nothing in Paul's "cry of the heart" suggests that the Jews are guilty of worshipping a false god; instead he is saying their zeal for the one true "God" is not based on knowledge. In other words, their zeal is misguided because they refuse to submit to the righteousness that comes through Jesus.
Let me say again that God is not a concept; He is someone with distinct characteristics and a unique nature. The Jews seek to worshhip that God, but they reject specific things He has told them, just as they have throughout their history.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/26/2008 11:40:20 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
Paul says that his rejection of Jesus was disbelief and ignorance. No where does he suggest that he was worshhipping a false god. In fact, the ignorance and disbelief statement suggests the nature of his response to the one true God. Think about it for a moment. Other religions like the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Native Americans, Buddhist, you name it, can all be concluded that they are indeed worshiping the same God, but with disbelief and ignorance.
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For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/27/2008 3:47:48 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
They are attempting to worship the one true God, but they are doing so in a state of sin resulting from their disbelief.
Christ interpreted the unbelief of the Jews as hatred towards Himself, therefore hatred towards God:
"He that hateth me, hateth my Father also" (Jn. 15:23).
Since Christ made this statement, it is absolutely true. And hatred can never be mistaken for worship.
Today, after 2,000 years of the coming of Christ, if any religion (including Judaism) rejects Christ as the Son of God and very God, it rejects the one true God. While they may not deliberately or knowingly worship a false god, they are in reality doing so. Christ can no longer be left out of the Godhead. Neither can the Holy Spirit.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/27/2008 7:10:45 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
I was thinking about this statement. God didn't reveal Himself to the jews as a trinitarian God, so why would they believe this?
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Yes, but that's not during OT times, which is what I was referring to. And I did say that the Jews didn't 'get' who Jesus was - so I'm agreement with you.
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/28/2008 9:17:32 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
Paul says that his rejection of Jesus was disbelief and ignorance. No where does he suggest that he was worshhipping a false god. In fact, the ignorance and disbelief statement suggests the nature of his response to the one true God. Think about it for a moment. Other religions like the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Native Americans, Buddhist, you name it, can all be concluded that they are indeed worshiping the same God, but with disbelief and ignorance.
walterquez,
How can there be any comparison between the worship of Buddha and the Jews worship of the God that called Abraham out of Ur, and who gave the Law to Moses. Are we really going to say that just because they don't believe everything that God says about Himself (even if they believe everything He reveals that is recorded in the OT) that the Jews worship a false god? Isn't it more likely that their disbelief means that their worship is unacceptable? Remember that the Jews have a long and well established history of relationship with the one true God, that includes periods of faithfulness and unfaithfulness. It's just that right now they are in a period of unfaithfulness. In any case, I certainly don't see anything in Scripture that suggests they are worshipping a false god. Maybe their rejection of Jesus reveals that they really aren't interested in submitting to the authority of God; and I totally agree that what they think of Jesus is exactly what they think of the Father, but that doesn't mean they are not attempting to worship the Father. It just means that they bow before the Father with that attitude in their hearts.
The God of the Jews, the God that chose them as His nation and led them out of Egypt is the one true God; and that is the God they worship. The religions you listed, not only disbelieve in the one true God, they also worship dieties that are not in any way similar to the one true God.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 3/29/2008 12:40:45 AM >
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/28/2008 9:24:01 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 350
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
They are attempting to worship the one true God, but they are doing so in a state of sin resulting from their disbelief.
Christ interpreted the unbelief of the Jews as hatred towards Himself, therefore hatred towards God:
"He that hateth me, hateth my Father also" (Jn. 15:23).
Since Christ made this statement, it is absolutely true. And hatred can never be mistaken for worship.
Today, after 2,000 years of the coming of Christ, if any religion (including Judaism) rejects Christ as the Son of God and very God, it rejects the one true God. While they may not deliberately or knowingly worship a false god, they are in reality doing so. Christ can no longer be left out of the Godhead. Neither can the Holy Spirit.
Ezra,
rejecting and hating the one true God, does not mean that the God they are attempting to worship is a false god. God is not a concept, nor is He a doctrinal affirmation. He is a unique (triune) individual. The Jews worship that God; unfortunately they do so unacceptably.
Yes, they reject Jesus, and their unbelief causes them to unwittingly reject God. They do not, however, realize that their rejection of Jesus means that they have rejected the Father. That fact - that rejection - does not mean that the God they bow before is a false god...it only means that their worship of God is not based on truth.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/29/2008 12:15:55 AM
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bob97
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What does God have to say about the Jewish people...
"IF MY PEOPLE, WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME, SHALL HUMBLE THEMSELVES, AND PRAY, AND SEEK MY FACE, AND TURN FROM THEIR WICKED WAYS, THEN I WILL HEAR FROM HEAVEN, AND WILL FORGIVE THEIR SIN, AND WILL HEAL THEIR LAND." -2 Chronicles 7;14
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
There can be no doubt that the God who spoke these word is the same God what we worship and in my opinion His words are eternal.
Bob
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The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/29/2008 5:21:59 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: qtman
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
We in fact know that Judaism worship the same God as the Church but Judaism does not believe in a Trinity and they do not believe in Jesus Christ so by the definition earthless has given He would not be the same God.
Bob
Actually they do worship the same God as we do. They do not believe the same thing about Jesus Christ as we do. They do not believe He was the Messiah but more like another prophet. They do however worship God the creator of the universe.
Jews who reject Yeshua haMashiach are worshipping the satan. They *think* they are worshipping the God of Israel, but they are in fact worshipping the devil. Please, don't say I'm wrong. These are the words of our Master, not mine (John 8:37-47).
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/29/2008 6:27:31 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
What does God have to say about the Jewish people...
"IF MY PEOPLE, WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME, SHALL HUMBLE THEMSELVES, AND PRAY, AND SEEK MY FACE, AND TURN FROM THEIR WICKED WAYS, THEN I WILL HEAR FROM HEAVEN, AND WILL FORGIVE THEIR SIN, AND WILL HEAL THEIR LAND." -2 Chronicles 7;14
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
There can be no doubt that the God who spoke these word is the same God what we worship and in my opinion His words are eternal.
Bob
Both edicts given before the Messiah came... they (and every other human being after 33 AD) now do not have any excuse.
All knee must bow to Jesus, there is no other name given to man for salvation.
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/29/2008 8:28:25 PM
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bob97
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What did Christ say?
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
And God said: "IF MY PEOPLE, WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME, SHALL HUMBLE THEMSELVES, AND PRAY, AND SEEK MY FACE"
I agree that the only way is through the Christ...there is no other way but the question is "do we worship the same God" and the answer is yes we do. It's just that Yahweh who they currently worship does not hear their worship and will not until they confess Jesus Christ and Christ indicates that they will do that very thing.
Our God even has the same name: Yahweh is the name, in Hebrew, that many Bibles show as THE LORD.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/29/2008 8:40:44 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
What did Christ say?
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
And God said: "IF MY PEOPLE, WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME, SHALL HUMBLE THEMSELVES, AND PRAY, AND SEEK MY FACE"
I agree that the only way is through the Christ...there is no other way but the question is "do we worship the same God" and the answer is yes we do. It's just that Yahweh who they currently worship does not hear their worship and will not until they confess Jesus Christ and Christ indicates that they will do that very thing.
Our God even has the same name: Yahweh is the name, in Hebrew, that many Bibles show as THE LORD.
Bob
Please, don't use "Yah-weh". Even our Master didn't use the personal Covenant Name of the God of Israel. It is acceptable to call Him "LORD" or "HaShem".
No, the apostate Jews do not worship the same God. If they truly worshipped HaShem they would accept His Messiah. They worship a false god. Our Master said that their father is the devil. Only those who have genuine faith in Him are the sons of Abraham. Please, carefully read John 8.
However, I certainly believe that all Israel will be saved. One day He will bring them all back Him. However, until that day comes the ones who reject the real Messiah are condemned and children of the devil.
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/29/2008 9:02:50 PM
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bob97
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iSERVEaJEW...are you saying that Israel today worships Satan?
Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Or was Jesus speaking to those who were seeking to kill him?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/29/2008 9:48:51 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
iSERVEaJEW...are you saying that Israel today worships Satan?
Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Or was Jesus speaking to those who were seeking to kill him?
Bob
I am saying that EVERYONE who rejects our Master is worshipping the satan. I am not saying that all Israel worships the satan, for we are part of Israel and we worship the Master, Yeshua haMashiach.
I believe that Israel is made up of Jews who believe and Jews who do not believe. I believe that non-Jews that believe are, together with the believing Jews, the remnant of Israel. So, the portion of Israel that is not His remnant is worshipping a false god. However, I believe that HaShem will bring them back to Him one day.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/30/2008 9:38:05 AM
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bob97
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Hi ISERVEaJEW...
Need to ask you this...are the Jews still blinded to the realities of Christ, or has this ended?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/30/2008 1:24:50 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi ISERVEaJEW...
Need to ask you this...are the Jews still blinded to the realities of Christ, or has this ended?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
Bob
Some Jews are blinded to him. That means that they are NOT in the kingdom of God. They do not have the Holy Spirit within them. They are not children of God, for only those who are adopted by the Holy Spirit into His family are His children. They are in the same boat as the unbelieving Gentiles.
However, that doesn't mean that our God isn't faithful to His one-sided covenant promises to Abraham. The Land belongs to Israel and one Day all Israel will be saved. However, apostate Jews who die rejecting our Wonderful Counsellor will not be in His Kingdom. Period.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/30/2008 1:43:42 PM
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bob97
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Hi iSERVE...
God had in a manner so blinded Israel, that while they refused the light of the gospel, it might be transferred to the Gentiles, and that these might occupy, as it were, the vacated possession. And so this blindness served the providence of God in furthering the salvation of the Gentiles, which he had designed.
Obviously not all Israel is blinded because we have some that come to Christ but it seems from looking at the whole, the majority are blinded to Christ. How else could one explain the wide spread rejection of Christ?
But here is my point of contention; the same God who has blinded them will upon the “fullness of the gentiles" remove that blindness and then all Israel will be saved and I take “all" to mean only those whose name are written in the Lambs book of life.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/30/2008 1:53:29 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
But here is my point of contention; the same God who has blinded them will upon the “fullness of the gentiles" remove that blindness and then all Israel will be saved and I take “all" to mean only those whose name are written in the Lambs book of life.
Bob
For me, ALL means literally ALL. In the latter part of Zechariah we see that they will look upon Him that they have pierced and they will be converted. Before that happens many will die in the battles and it will be terrible for those who died and were unrepentant.
Yeah, all who believe on Him have their names written down.
BEFORE I knew God I was serving the devil. Were you serving the devil before you knew Him?
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Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/30/2008 2:07:05 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1623
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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I was nine years old...let me put it this way; I wasn't serving Christ but to go any farther gets into a whole different doctrine. Let me just say that God has a plan for my life and here I am. 
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/30/2008 2:09:54 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1623
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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iSERVE...I still have the question...If God has blinded a part of Israel, will he lift that blindness at some point and let them see the truth?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/30/2008 2:37:48 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
iSERVE...I still have the question...If God has blinded a part of Israel, will he lift that blindness at some point and let them see the truth?
Bob
Yes. Sorry, I thought I answered that in post #69.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Do we Believe in the same God? - 3/31/2008 8:08:29 PM
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facedown
Posts: 1069
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
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figmentpez
how can one even possibly reconcile the phrase "jew of jews" with "hardly be considered representative of the community as a whole"? i think of folks like chesty puller - a "marines marine" who embodied every | | |
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