RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (Full Version)

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Retrobyter -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (4/20/2008 5:18:47 PM)

Shalom, Cephyr13.

You said,
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cephyr13

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

quote:

I never said passover was on a Friday. Personally, I think it was on a Wednesday. We just don't agree on the year.


The problem that all of the date calculators give the same information...the only Wednesday dates were in 27 and 30AD.

27AD= Wed
28AD=Mon
29AD=Sat
30AD=Wed
31AD=Mon
32AD=Fri
33AD=Fri
34AD=Mon
35AD=Mon

The are the dates that Nisan 14th fell on.

Unless you can supply other data showing differently.

Bob


We cannot even get the years correct back in those times, much less the days. I make no judgement on which days this may have happened. I just know what prophecy and history says.

In 8 BC there was a census taken. The Romans took a census every 14 years. We have archaeological pieces that prove there was a census in 20 AD. So, you go back 14 years to 6 AD, then 14 more years to 8 BC. So, Jesus was born around 8 BC or 6 AD. 6 AD doesn't work out at all with His age. So, 8 BC is more likely. If you go 40 years forward, you get 32 AD as the year He died, most likely. The Census is a more accurate way to tell Jesus age and when He was crucified. We don't know that he was 33. That's just a guess because someone says He's in his thirties. If He turned 40 the year He was crucified, that would make 32 AD the right year if He were born in 8 BC. That's how the theory goes anyway, and it seems to be a pretty solid one, especially since 40 is such a significant number in the Bible. I can see people listening to a 40 year old before I can see them listening to a 30 year old teaching about God. This makes a lot of sense all around...


I would simply like to point out that the Scriptures say this much...

Luke 3:21-23
21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,...
KJV

Then, looking at the Gospels, one can see that, during Yeshua`s ministry, we have evidence of three Passovers (John 2:16; John 6:4; and John 12:1). This is why Yeshua` has been said to be about 33 years old when He died. Thus, He did not live to 40 before He was crucified. This is also how we know that Yeshua`s ministry lasted about 3 1/2 years! From Rosh Hashanah to the third Pesach (Passover).

Also, why this is important, IMO, is that THIS is the first half of Dani'el's 70th week of years!

The "abomination that made them desolate" was the Jews' rejection of their King, YHVH's Messiah! His death caused the "sacrifice and the oblation to cease!" The veil in the Temple was torn from the top to the bottom! That was a sure sign that God no longer accepted their sacrifices!

Furthermore, Yeshua` Himself said,

Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

This is a direct quote from Psalm 118:26:

Ps 118:26
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.
KJV

The Hebrew phrase is "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!" and today means "We welcome the one who comes on YHVH's behalf or on His authority," which refers to Yeshua` in His lament of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem).

HE was the One who suspended the 70 weeks of years! But, He did not suspend it between the 69th week and the 70th week; He suspended it between the 69-1/2th week and the rest of the 70th week! Thus, 486.5 years have been completed but the last three and a half years have yet to be fulfilled, and they won't be fulfilled until the Jews of Jerusalem can welcome Yeshua` as their promised Messiah, the Anointed--the Selected--of God to be their King. When that happens (which may not be that far off), Yeshua` will return. (Unfortunately, according to several prophecies especially that of Z'kharyahu [Zechariah], they will not readily accept Him until their nation is threatened with genocide!)

Retrobyter



bitnpiece -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (4/20/2008 6:44:44 PM)

Thought the following might help... Made an error on my web page which will not be corrected until Monday..However, the correction has been made here..I placed the number of a year where a week was to appear.

The following chart begins in the year 445 BC unto “the Messiah the Prince” detailing Daniel’s 62 weeks:

445-168 BC = 277 years = 39 4/7wks

Gap
King Antiochus IV
168-165 BC = 3 years

165-37 BC = 128 years = 18 2/7wks

Gap
King Herod the Great
37-6 BC = 31 years

Christ, the King is born
6-5 BC = 1 year = 1/7wk

Gap
The Child is taken into Egypt
5-1 BC = 4 years

Return of the Christ Child
and
Triumphant Entry of “the Messiah the Prince”
1 BC + 27 AD = 28 years = 4 wks

Commencing date of the 62 weeks to “the Messiah the Prince”
445 BC – 27 AD = 472 years

Fulfilled prophetic years:
277yrs + 128yrs + 1yr + 28yrs = 434 years

Gaps between prophetic years:
3yrs + 31yrs + 4yrs = 38 years

Prophetic years and gaps:
Prophetic years-434yrs + gaps-38 yrs = 472 years

Prophetic years converted to weeks:
39 4/7wks + 18 2/7wks + 1/7wk + 4wks = 62 wks

Total- 62 Weeks

bitnpiece



LoyalGypsy -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (4/21/2008 8:31:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bitnpiece

Thought the following might help... Made an error on my web page which will not be corrected until Monday..However, the correction has been made here..I placed the number of a year where a week was to appear.

The following chart begins in the year 445 BC unto “the Messiah the Prince” detailing Daniel’s 62 weeks:

445-168 BC = 277 years = 39 4/7wks

Gap
King Antiochus IV
168-165 BC = 3 years

165-37 BC = 128 years = 18 2/7wks

Gap
King Herod the Great
37-6 BC = 31 years

Christ, the King is born
6-5 BC = 1 year = 1/7wk

Gap
The Child is taken into Egypt
5-1 BC = 4 years

Return of the Christ Child
and
Triumphant Entry of “the Messiah the Prince”
1 BC + 27 AD = 28 years = 4 wks

Commencing date of the 62 weeks to “the Messiah the Prince”
445 BC – 27 AD = 472 years

Fulfilled prophetic years:
277yrs + 128yrs + 1yr + 28yrs = 434 years

Gaps between prophetic years:
3yrs + 31yrs + 4yrs = 38 years

Prophetic years and gaps:
Prophetic years-434yrs + gaps-38 yrs = 472 years

Prophetic years converted to weeks:
39 4/7wks + 18 2/7wks + 1/7wk + 4wks = 62 wks

Total- 62 Weeks

bitnpiece



Greetings

quote:

Total- 62 Weeks



Daniel 9:20-27
24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.
This part above is revealed in the book of Revelation


This part describes what you have offered above
Daniel 9:20-27
25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.




All this occurs after=wards
Daniel 9:20-27
26 "And "after the sixty-two weeks" Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood,

This verse above is where many get a little confused....

.............And the people of the prince "who is to come,”.............

Rome was "already established" by the reference in the scriptures meaning ...in the fullness of time" (the BIRTH) begat ..........the people of the prince "who is to come,"

This prince "who is to come, cannot be Rome in the time of Jesus, the principals of Rome were already established, and for one ....there was no such animal as a prince of Rome, it contradicts the Emperors control over the people as not being a god since birth.

The people of the prince "who is to come," It is speaking of principalities and powers
For Example;
A Diplomatic Stylesheet: Protocols and Forms of Address for Foreign Potentates, I
c. 46 (ed. Reiske, p. 679)
Honorific titles that the emperor may bestow on the leaders and potentates of foreign peoples (ethne):
http://homepage.mac.com/paulstephenson/trans/decer1.html

If one researched all those named in the Honorific titles, and what is was that each power represented by these certain principals, then the one who is to come will stand out like a sore thumb, and these were simply called prince of princes.



The Bible refers to these principals in Duet
De 4:8 - Show Context
And what great nation is there that has such statutes and righteous judgments as are in all this law which I set before you this day?

De 30:15 - Show Context
"See, I have set before you today life and good, "death and evil,"

De 28
14 And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after "other gods" to serve them.

.........in the Honorific titles, concerning the prince who is to come; each represent certain principals, so to go after other ""gods"" and to serve them, is saying
To go after other principals and powers, which means to serve statutes judgments that are not in all this law, which GOD has set before us = principalities and powers in high places.



So this is where we are now
Daniel 9:20-27
..And till "the end of the war" (the warfare).... desolations are determined.
Because it is written above that the “end of it” shall be “with” a flood,
Meaning the desolations caused by the prince who is to come = other principals the end of it or when it ends.....it shall have covered the whole earth like a flood....
..........This prophetic opposite in the scripture seen here as the prince who is to come shall have covered the whole earth quickly
Re 22:20 - Show Context
He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

So also is the prophetic opposite in like manner a reference to the achievement of the great commission
John 11:48
If we let him thus alone, "all men will believe on him": and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation




Loyal Gypsy



Cephyr13 -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (4/21/2008 9:19:00 AM)

Sorry, but I don't acknowledge Preterist doctrine whatsoever. It started back in the 1500's when the Protestant Reformation was occuring. The people had figured out that the Holy Roman Empire (Rome & Vatican) was the whore of Babylon, adorned in red and purple, drunk with the blood of the saints, the city on seven hills, etc, and so Catholics were changing to Protestantism. The Pope commissioned two Jesuit priests to come up with two different prophetic views they could spread that would make everything think the tribulation was a future or past period of time, not something that was happening at that very time. Ribera came up with the futurist view of a tribulation in the future. Other writers got ahold of it later and translated it and modified it. John Darby got it in the 1700's, I believe, and took it as his own view, claiming to be the founder of the view, illigitimately. The other Jesuit priest came up with Preterism, teaching all the prophecies had already come to pass by 70AD. Both false doctrines to keep members in the Catholic church by way of throwing them off the fact that the Catholic church and Rome were Mystery Babylon. And besides, there are so many thing wrong with Preterism, it's not even funny. I don't buy into false doctrines.



LoyalGypsy -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (4/21/2008 9:53:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cephyr13

Sorry, but I don't acknowledge Preterist doctrine whatsoever.



Greetings,

Who me?

I am no preterist, I can say that much.[:'(]



LG



bitnpiece -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (4/21/2008 4:56:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cephyr13

A
quote:

ORIGINAL: bitnpiece

I thought April 17 would be an appropriate date to post Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 2, which centers on 'Messiah the Prince'....

I'll show how 62 weeks or 434 years are determined, commencing with the date 445 BC and concluding with the year 27 AD...

Thus, Cyrus, Darius and Artaxerxes remain a part of the first 7 weeks or 49 years, as it is written in 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah and Isaiah..

We can't remove these kings from their participation in the prophetic fulfillment of scripture, God's calendar of appointed times and events, simply because the years will not fit into one's personal interpretation.

bitnpiece..


So, if you're going to say that supposedly 445 BC and the 62 weeks comes out perfectly to 27 AD, then you'll have to show how ALL of the numerical prophecies work out with this method, and that's where you're going to run into major problems.

Generally, what most historians believe is the proper date is what most people go with, because more historians have come to the same conclusion on that date. It seems far more reasonable than using a dating scheme that's less recognized.



Cephyr13, I believe you asked to see "ALL the numerical prophecies worked out"...concerning "the Messiah the Prince" and the 62 weeks..

As you requested...It begins with the fulfilled commandment of Artaxerxes in the year 445 BC unto “the Messiah the Prince” in 27 AD; detailing Daniel’s 62 weeks:

445-168 BC = 277 years = 39 4/7wks

Gap
King Antiochus IV
168-165 BC = 3 years

165-37 BC = 128 years = 18 2/7wks

Gap
King Herod the Great
37-6 BC = 31 years

Christ, the King is born
6-5 BC = 1 year = 1/7 wk

Gap
The Child is taken into Egypt
5-1 BC = 4 years

Return of the Christ Child
and
Triumphant Entry of “the Messiah the Prince”
1 BC + 27 AD = 28 years = 4 wks

Commencing date of the 62 weeks to “the Messiah the Prince”
445 BC – 27 AD = 472 years

Fulfilled prophetic years:
277yrs + 128yrs + 1yr + 28yrs = 434 years

Gaps between prophetic years:
3yrs + 31yrs + 4yrs = 38 years

Prophetic years and gaps:
Prophetic years-434yrs + gaps-38 yrs = 472 years

Prophetic years converted to weeks:
39 4/7 + 18 2/7 + 1/7 + 4 wks = 62 wks

Total- 62 Weeks

It is not enough to use the calculation of years to prove the fulfillment of "the Messiah the Prince"...

Which is why the timeframe of Daniel's 70 weeks was spoken of in a very unique and precise way..specific in terminology.."weeks".

It is the 'weeks' that confirm and prove our accuracy in the years, the events, and the signs given to us in Daniel's 70 weeks..

Therefore, the Lord, in all his wisdom, knowing that this day would come and that theories would abound, gave us the 'weeks' as a means by which we can accurately pinpoint the event that fulfills the 62nd and/or 69th week, "the Messiah the Prince".

bitnpiece



LoyalGypsy -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (4/21/2008 8:40:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bitnpiece


Therefore, the Lord, in all his wisdom, knowing that this day would come and that theories would abound, gave us the 'weeks' as a means by which we can accurately pinpoint the event that fulfills the 62nd and/or 69th week, "the Messiah the Prince".

bitnpiece



Greetings,

SO what you are suggesting by "the Messiah the Prince" that His own "people of the prince who is to come:" Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.???

If it is.... then isn't that a bit contridictory??




LG



bitnpiece -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (4/21/2008 10:51:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy

quote:

ORIGINAL: bitnpiece


Therefore, the Lord, in all his wisdom, knowing that this day would come and that theories would abound, gave us the 'weeks' as a means by which we can accurately pinpoint the event that fulfills the 62nd and/or 69th week, "the Messiah the Prince".

bitnpiece



Greetings,

SO what you are suggesting by "the Messiah the Prince" that His own "people of the prince who is to come:" Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.???

If it is.... then isn't that a bit contridictory??




LG


LoyalGypsy, What has been presented here is an original analysis of the first seven weeks of Daniel's 70 weeks, along with concluding data on the following 62 weeks "the Messiah the Prince".

You are now asking me to explain the last week, the 70th week, which I would love to do, after Daniel's 70 Weeks Part 1 and Part 2 run their course...

bitnpiece......... Daniel's 70 Weeks



eschatologist -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (4/27/2008 4:58:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bitnpiece

Lately, I've noticed a lot of Full and Partial Preterists stepping out and into forums....When I finally understood their agenda, I turned to Dan.9:24-27 for a closer look...

I spent the last 6 months trying to interpret and explain Daniel's 70 Weeks...

Figuring the weeks nearly did me in, however, endtimeprophecy.us contains a post that disproves the 'no gap theory' held by Full Preterists..

And, it's only a matter of time before I post an additional paper that will make 'null and void' the Partial Preterists views.

Let me know what you think...Please, no comments from the peanut gallery, Full and Partial Preterisms...I already know the agreement, which is why I posted here...

bit...


To me the 70 weeks in Daniel chapter nine are crystal clear, and you don't need to sit down with a calculator or a slide rule or any other mathematical instrument to figure these things out. All it takes is the Lord revealing these things to you by His Spirit, "For the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God". (The Apostle Paul)

To start with. it might be helpful to some to know why we interpret the word "week" in these scriptures to mean 7 years and not 7 days. This word week is translated from a hebrew word simply meaning seven or a group of seven. In this case it means a period of seven years and not seven days, (which is the usual definition of the word "week" in english.) There is another place in the bible where it definitly uses the word week to mean a period of seven years. Jacob had to serve his uncle Laban for seven years in order to marry Laban's daughter Rachel. But he ended up working 7 years for Laban's oldest daughter, Leah, then another seven years for Rachel, then another 7 years for his share of the cattle and livestock. But the verses I wanted to mention here are Genisis 29:27-28, "Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years. And Jacob did so, and filfilled her week:(Served Laban another seven years), and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also."

So now,back to Daniel 9:24-27:

Verse 24: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy Holy city, to finish the transgression,and make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, (This is of course what Jesus came to do, to die for the sins of the world to blot out our sins and transgressions and to wash us clean by shedding his own blood and dieing for us and taking our punishment for us."In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgivness of sins; having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross."Colossians 1:14 and 2:14)
quote:

and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
This final fulfillment of bringing in everlasting righteousness and final fulfilling of the vision won't happen until Jesus' second coming when He takes over the world and "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdom's of our Lord and of His Christ."

Verse 25: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jeruselem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." Here we have the first 69 weeks divided up into 2 segments: the first seven weeks or 49 years , the second threescore and two weeks or 434 years. The 49 years is the length of time it took the Jews to re-build the temple and the city of Jeruselem that was destroyed and left in ruins when Nebachadnezzar invaded Isreal and carried away the children of Isreal as slaves to Babylon. The book of Nehemiah describes the re-building of the temple and the city of Jeruselem. The commandment sent forth to restore and to build Jeruselem was given by Artaxerxes the king of medo-Persia. Nehemiah and the people who worked with him had a lot of enemies and it was definitly built in "Troublous times". Nehemiah 4:16-18 : "And it came to pass, from that time forth, that half of my servents wrought in the work, and the other half of them held both the spears, the shields and the bows, and the habergeons: They which builded on the wall, and they that bare burdens, with those that laded, every one with one of his hands wrought in the work, and with the other hand held a weapon. For the builders, every one had a sword girded by his side and so builded. And he that sounded the trumpet was me."
When it says "to restore and to build Jeruslem unto Messiah the Prince" it simply means that all of this was in preparation for the first coming of Jesus, to prepare Isreal and the world for Jesus and so Jesus will begin His work on the earth by going first unto the lost sheep of the house of Isreal and then His message will spread abroad around the world after that.

Verse 26: "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself: (Meaning he will die for the sins of the world, because of His great love and compassion for every single person in the world, not for himself. "Greater Love hath no man than this, that a man lay down His life for His friends" {Jesus}) and the people of the Prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." So Jeruselem is built, to prepare Jeruselem for the coming of the Messiah, during the first 7 weeks (49 years) then 62 weeks later (or 434 years) Jesus is "cut off" or dies for the sins of the world, is crucified. Once Jesus' ministry on this earth is completed and His disciples get the ball rolling to take the message of salvation to the far corners of the earth to every creature and so that everybody in the world can become a child of God, God's chosen people, simply by believing in and receiving Jesus, there was no need for the temple and the physical city of Jeruselem anymore, so He had the Romans come in in 70A.D. and sack Jeruslem, crucify nearly a million Jews on the hillsides around the city, and completely destroy the temple. The seventieth week hasn't happened yet. We've only covered the first 69 weeks which ended with the crucifixion of Jesus.

Verse 27: "And he shall confirm the covnant with many for one week: (So here we have the 70th week, so, who is this he that shall confirm what covanent with who? without going into details, (since I don't want to make this too long and drawn out) we know that this is talking about the Antichrist and that he will make a seven year peace pact with several other countries. This peace pact will allow the Jews to re-build the temple in Jeruselem (that was destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D.) and restore animal sacrifice and religious worship according to the law of Moses. This is something that the religious Jews have been wanting to do for a long time. Since we know that this hasn't happened yet, we know that the 70th week hasn't happened yet either. ""And in the midst of the week(after 3 1/2 years, leaving 3 1/2 years to go he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, (stop animal sacrifices and forbid religious worship) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, (This is refering to the abomination of desolation that he will set up in the newly re-built jewish Temple in Jerulelem, where he will sit upon a throne declaring himself to be God and that everybody in the world will have to worship him.)even until the consummation, meaning until the end of the tribulation when Jesus comes back to resurrect His saints of all ages.) and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.( This is talking about the wrath of God that shall be poured out upon the wicked who remain on the earth after the resurrection and rapture of the Saints.)

So, we see that the first 69 weeks of Daniel ended with the Messiah being cut off, or crucified for the sins of the world. But the 70th week does not happen until the very end of the world, and it refers to the last seven years of world history before Jesus comes back. To me this is plain as day and clear as crystal. So, I hope this ends the controversy about whether there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week. There is. The 69th week ends when Jesus is crucified, the 70th week ends at Jesus' second coming.



Cephyr13 -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (4/28/2008 7:23:26 AM)

444BC - Decree to rebuild Jerusalem is given

We have 7 weeks first that are decreed. Each day is a Hebrew year (360 days). So they must be converted to solar years because history is recorded in solar years (364.24 day years). 360 divided by 365.24 = .9857

7 x 7 = 49 Hebrew years

49 x .9857 = 48.3 yrs

444 - 48.3 yrs = 395.7 BC

The book of Malachi was written in 395-396 BC, which ended the Old Testament canon. This is the first prophecy that was fulfilled in Daniel's 70 weeks, which says: to seal up vision and prophecy. Vision and prophecy for the Jews was finished once the Old Testament canon was completed for them in 396-395 BC. Now, there are 62 more weeks to look at.

We'll stay with 444 BC and add the first 7 weeks to the other 62 weeks to get 69 weeks of years.

69 x 7 = 483 Hebrew years

483 x .9857 = 476 solar years

-444 BC + 476 yrs = 32 AD - The year Jesus was cruicified. His crucifiction fulfilled the other prophecies in Daniel's 69 weeks:

- to finish the transgression
- to make an end of sin
- to make atonement for iniquity
- to bring in everlasting righteousness
- to anoint the most holy

So, we see that in 69 weeks, all of those first 6 prophecies are fulfilled. The 70th week is much more complicated. I'll do that one separately.



Cephyr13 -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (4/28/2008 7:38:15 AM)

The 70th week is far more complicated. If we can prove that the 70th week is actually a really long period of time (which Daniel said he understood that the time was very long), then we can prove the 70th week is not just 7 years like the other weeks. Daniel's 1,290 days is part of the 70th week. 1,290 Hebrew years is converted to 1,271.553 solar years. Daniel says it starts with the daily sacrifice being taken away. That happened in 583 BC when Babylon lead the Jews away captive so that they could no longer give sacrifices on their temple mount.

-583 + 1271.5 = 688.5 AD (the year the Dome of the Rock started construction on the temple mount)

So Daniel said the daily sacrifice would be ceased, then 1,271.5 years later, an Abomination of Desolation would be "set up." That's exactly what happened. Then we can see that the Christians are given two prophecies in Revelation 11 about the temple and the two witnesses. John is told to measure the temple, but not the outer courts, because the Gentiles will rule them for 42 months. Let's convert 42 months to years (because all days are years prophetically according to Eze 4:5-6 and Num 14:34).

365.24 divided by 12 = 30.44 days per month in a solar year

42 months X 30.44 = 1278.5 years

688.5 AD + 1278.5 yrs = 1967 AD (the year the Jews took back the temple mount and Jerusalem in the Six Day War)

So the Gentiles (Muslims in this case) ruled the temple mount's outer courts (which is where the Dome of the Rock is) for exactly 42 months of years, exactly as stated in the prophecy.

The other prophecy there says that the Two Witnesses will prophesy for 1,260 days. They're in sacloth and ashes so they're mourning something. Most likely the breaking of the covenant in the middle of the week, because the covenant was that they could stay in the land God gave them. I'll explain this later. 688 AD, Dome of the Rock is built. Jesus told Christians to get out of Jerusalem when they saw the Abomination of Desolation on the temple mount, for then Great Tribulation would come. The Christians got out of Jerusalem. Just as they did, in 688, the Muslims slaughtered a million Jews and ran the rest out of the country for 1,260 years.

688 AD + 1,260 years = 1948 (the year the Jews became a nation in Israel again)

The two witnesses are said to be two lampstands and two olive trees. Rev 1:20 says lampstands are churches, and Romans says the native olive tree is the Jews and the wild olive tree is the Christian (Gentile) church. So the two witnesses are the Jewish church and the Christian church. The Jews came back into their own land in 1948, thus, ending their mourning and their prophesying to the world via their Old Testament prophecies. And so the 70th week ended. Let's prove that further.

Since we know the 70th week is a long time now, let's see when the prophecy was given. It was 536 BC. Now let's take that 7 years and turn each day into a year.

7 x 360 = 5250 Hebrew years

5250 x .9857 = 2484 solar years

-536 BC + 2484 yrs = 1948 AD (Jews become a nation again)

So, we have the beginning of the tribulation in 536 BC around the time the Jews return to their land from Babylon (He, Satan, through the Satanic government Babylon, makes a covenant to let Israel return to their land for 2484 solar years, apparently). In the middle this 2484 years, in 688 AD, the covenant is broken, and a million Jews are killed. Jesus says that's the start of the Great Tribulation. For 1,260 years the Jews are hunted down and killed. Catholics would take the Jews belongings and hide them, and hide the Jews too. Then, they'd tell the Jew's persuers where they were so they would be killed, and the Catholics would keep the Jew's belonging. Pretty messed up. The most Christians in history were killed during that time period as well, mostly by the Holy Roman Empire by way of the Vatican's command, especially during the Spanish Inquisition and the Protestant Reformation. This period ended with 6 million Jews being slaughtered by Hitler due to a Muslim who propositioned Hitler to kill Jews first and foremost. And finally, the period comes to a complete close exactly 1,260 years later in 1948 when the Jews get their own nation again and are not being slaughtered in large numbers anymore. That's the 70th week, and it's been over for exactly 60 years now.



cybrjewls -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (4/28/2008 8:55:18 AM)

K.I.S.S : Keep It Simple Students! Occams razor, the simplest explanation is probably the correct one. Yours is way more unbelievable, even, because you are assuming a calculation that projects the future date of the coming of The Lord Jesus in The Millennium Reign at Jerusalem without noticing it. Jesus said it is not for you to know the dates and seasons which The Father has set by His own authority. Yet, you acknowledge that you know dates..... 'No one knows the day or the hour when the Son of Man comes, not the angels in heaven .....'
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cephyr13

The 70th week is far more complicated. If we can prove that the 70th week is actually a really long period of time (which Daniel said he understood that the time was very long), then we can prove the 70th week is not just 7 years like the other weeks. Daniel's 1,290 days is part of the 70th week. 1,290 Hebrew years is converted to 1,271.553 solar years. Daniel says it starts with the daily sacrifice being taken away. That happened in 583 BC when Babylon lead the Jews away captive so that they could no longer give sacrifices on their temple mount.

-



Midwest -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (4/28/2008 11:44:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: .....


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cephyr13

The 70th week is far more complicated. If we can prove that the 70th week is actually a really long period of time (which Daniel said he understood that the time was very long), then we can prove the 70th week is not just 7 years like the other weeks. Daniel's 1,290 days is part of the 70th week. 1,290 Hebrew years is converted to 1,271.553 solar years. Daniel says it starts with the daily sacrifice being taken away. That happened in 583 BC when Babylon lead the Jews away captive so that they could no longer give sacrifices on their temple mount.


K.I.S.S : Occams razor, the simplest explanation is probably the correct one. Yours is way more unbelievable, even, because you are assuming a calculation that projects the future date of the coming of The Lord Jesus in The Millennium Reign at Jerusalem without noticing it. Jesus said it is not for you to know the dates and seasons which The Father has set by His own authority. Yet, you acknowledge that you know dates..... 'No one knows the day or the hour when the Son of Man comes, not the angels in heaven .....'


Prophetica why do you insist on making false statements about what other people have said? Please show us where Cephyr13 has given a "date of the coming of The Lord Jesus in The Millennium Reign at Jerusalem"? Please quote the date he set and post a link to it? Once again you have made an incorrect statement about what was said.Take the time to read and understand before posting and maybe then you won't be falsely accusing someone of setting a date for the Lords return when they did not set a date.



Cephyr13 -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (4/30/2008 5:23:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: .....

K.I.S.S : Keep It Simple Students! Occams razor, the simplest explanation is probably the correct one. Yours is way more unbelievable, even, because you are assuming a calculation that projects the future date of the coming of The Lord Jesus in The Millennium Reign at Jerusalem without noticing it. Jesus said it is not for you to know the dates and seasons which The Father has set by His own authority. Yet, you acknowledge that you know dates..... 'No one knows the day or the hour when the Son of Man comes, not the angels in heaven .....'


Will you please stop misrepresenting what I'm saying. I never ever say that I can predict the date of Jesus' return. Nowhere in scripture does it gives us ANY way to predict Jesus' return. You are ASSUMING that the millennium is a time period AFTER the Great Tribulation, but we have no way of knowing that from scripture. And you are assuming that this Millennial period comes the split second the Great Tribulation ends, and you're assuming that Jesus returns right at the very end of this Great Tribulation.

Trust me, I know pre-trib futurist doctrine VERY well. I used to believe it and teach it a long time ago. And I believed futurists post-trib doctrine for 8 years after that. And only last year did I find that those beliefs had been completely disproven by a different prophetic view that proves itself with the calculations of the numerical prophecies.

Therefore, no, I do not predict the coming of Christ. From my perspective, believing that you are incorrect to say that Jesus comes back the split second the Great Tribulation is over, means that you will take MY view of prophecy and my calculation of when the Great Tribulation ended, and say that I predicted Christ's return. But I didn't. Your doctrine, which in my opinion is false, predicted the return of Christ on the last day of the Great Tribulation. So, because you do not understand my interpretation of prophecy, you cannot say I predicted the return of Christ. YOUR interpretation of doctrine would do so IF you tried to impliment my numerical calculations into it. Do you understand this? So please stop saying I am unknowingly predicting the return of Christ. That's highly insulting to people, because it's telling them they don't know what they're talking about. I am not insulted at all, because I don't care about such things. But I do not like my words being misunderstood completely and misrepresented. And I mean no harm by calling your beliefs false doctrines. That's just my opinion, just like you think my views are false doctrine.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (5/1/2008 6:57:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
-583 + 1271.5 = 688.5 AD (the year the Dome of the Rock started construction on the temple mount)

Facts are amazing things. The Dome of the Rock was erected between 685 and 691 AD.

So while your neat calculations show some sort of symmetry, the essential fact is that you're starting the one 'seven' coincidental to the seven and sixty-two 'sevens' which goes against a plain and simple reading of what Gabriel told Daniel.

Meanwhile the watershed event which you pin the tail of the donkey on for the Abomination which causes Desolation (-tor) does not line up with what Jesus said about it in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation 13!

So your interpretation does not conform to history (I dislike numerical calculations - I've seen dozens and they are all neat, but I think they all miss the mark.) AND it doesn't conform to prophecy ~ therefore: I disagree with your take on things.



Cephyr13 -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (5/9/2008 6:21:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
-583 + 1271.5 = 688.5 AD (the year the Dome of the Rock started construction on the temple mount)

Facts are amazing things. The Dome of the Rock was erected between 685 and 691 AD.

I have no problem with your disagreeing with the calculations. However, they do come out perfectly. And to say that the dates the Dome of the Rock were built is between 685 and 691 is to assume a few things without full knowledge of events.

I assume you got those dates off Wikipedia. It's important to note that the information people post on Wikipedia is simply reviewed briefly by the staff of Wikipedia to make sure it's not blatant lies. They are not historians, really. So, for future reference, be careful with Wikipedia. I'll show you what came up on a Google search for "'Dome of the Rock' AD":

**Google search results:
Dome of the Rock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaThe Dome of the Rock was erected between 685 and 691 AD. The names of the two engineers in charge of the project are given as Yazid ibn Salam from Jerusalem ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_Rock - 64k - Cached - Similar pages

Dome of the Rock, JerusalemThe Dome of the Rock was built by the Umayyad caliph Abd al-Malik from 688 to 691 AD. It was not intended to be a mosque, but a shrine for pilgrims. ...
www.sacred-destinations.com/israel/jerusalem-dome-of-the-rock.htm - 43k - Cached - Similar pages

Dome of the RockThe Christian glorification of Jerusalem was carried on until 614 AD when the ... Abd al-Malik, built the great Dome of the Rock between 687 and 691. ...
**END OF RESULTS

Be careful with your historical references. It's important to find good references for looking up historical dates. And one thing that's very important is to find out what MOST historians and/or archaeologists agree on as being the accurate date for each event. No one is certain on the date of when the Dome of the Rock started its construction. No one knows which event they are recording as the start date of the Dome either, because there is the time between coming up with the idea, designing the building, collecting materials, and the actual dates on which building begins.

Maybe the people who say it was built between 687-691 are speaking of the date the idea was conceived or the designer started designing. And then maybe the physical construction/erection was not started till 688 AD. Some say 685, 687, 688... who knows which one it is? I'd say God knows. And the fact that the prophecies all come out perfectly to 688.5 AD, I assume that it began construction sometime in the middle of the year of 688 AD, because I assume God knows what He's talking about. And because ALL of the dates line up perfectly, it would appear that 688.5 AD is correct.

quote:


So while your neat calculations show some sort of symmetry, the essential fact is that you're starting the one 'seven' coincidental to the seven and sixty-two 'sevens' which goes against a plain and simple reading of what Gabriel told Daniel.

I never did any such thing. I showed in other threads how Daniel's first 69 weeks come out perfectly to the crucifiction of Christ. Then, I showed how the 70th week is very different from the other 69 weeks. Futurists say they're justified in separating that 70th week and moving it to the end of the world, and so they are proving my point that it is somehow different than the other 69 weeks. I just think they're interpreting it differently than it is meant to be interpreted and moving it to the wrong place in history. I don't think it gets moved to the end of time. Instead, I think it is a LONG period of time, and that it actually shows when the end time starts, not when it will ends.

Most futurists agree that the 1290 days and the 1335 days are part of Daniel's 70th week, correct? And they feel they can prove that. Therefore, since I agree with them, that the 1290 days and 1335 days are part of the 70th week, I would say that the best way to prove the 70th week is a long time is to prove that those 1290 days and the 1335 days are actually years, and figure out where they happened in history. Therefore, since Daniel's 70 weeks of years is interpreted as a day equals a year, why can't the 1290 and 1335 days mean years also? Since I have proven that both of these time periods came to pass exactly as they were prophesied to, I have shown that they are a long period of time. I agree with Daniel 10 where he says that he understood the vision was about a LONG period of time. So, these were not just days. They were years. And since I've proved that and we know that they are part of the 70th week, we can know that the 70th week is a long period of time.

My guess is that you believe 685 AD to be the date of the building of the Dome of the Rock. And because of that, you think that disproves 688 AD. I showed you where people have many different dates for the Dome of the Rock's conception. Which means we're back to square one, and you have not yet proved that the 1290 days and the 1335 days are not years like in my interpretation. Therefore, until you disprove this, you won't know whether I'm right or wrong. And usually, in order to disprove something, you must study it quite a bit and check out everything for yourself, because as some here have shown, if you don't understand the full theory, you cannot understand what dates are really being expressed. For instance, the misunderstanding that I'm predicting Jesus return. They thought that because of THEIR prophetic view, not because of mine. They're trying to mix prophetic views and it doesn't work that way. When you learn the entire prophetic interpretation, then you understand that no one knows the day Jesus returns, and my interpretation has not predicted such a thing. No offense to you, but it's like an evolutionist trying to debate a creationist without having any real understanding of what creation model and theory is about. How can you debate something you don't know anything about? If they are correct, you've just been debating because you didn't understand their theory. Had you learned the theory, THEN tried to invalidate it, you would've figured out they were correct (using the scientific origins analogy, of course). Does this make sense?

quote:


Meanwhile the watershed event which you pin the tail of the donkey on for the Abomination which causes Desolation (-tor) does not line up with what Jesus said about it in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation 13!

So your interpretation does not conform to history (I dislike numerical calculations - I've seen dozens and they are all neat, but I think they all miss the mark.) AND it doesn't conform to prophecy ~ therefore: I disagree with your take on things.


Let's make your statements correct: "Your interpretation does not conform to MY prophecy." If your prophecy is incorrectly interpreted, lots of it could be completely wrong, and then you would try fitting just parts of my prophecy into yours, and you would of course think it was incorrect. I tried to do this when I first learned about this interpretation I now believe. It didn't work. It wouldn't fit into my false doctrine, because my doctrine was just that: false! It was all messed up.

Now, I have explained how the Olivet Discourse actually lines up perfectly with what I have stated about this prophecy. I showed how the 70th week also lines up perfectly with Daniel's other prophecies of the 70th week. I have also shown, if I'm not mistaken, how the 42 months in Revelation 11 is the same 42 months as in Revelation 13, and therefore, that's been explained and fits perfectly into the prophecies as well.

Therefore, please tell me what you believe I did not explain properly from all of those subject above which I just stated that you stated I didn't answer so I can address each one. Thanks.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (5/9/2008 7:14:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
I assume you got those dates off Wikipedia.

I did not. Wikipedia is no more than conventional wisdome or idle gossip. In sampling yet more websites, all I can say is that none I looked at agree with your source.

Your neat calculations fail and I think your whole eschatology is barking up the wrong tree.



Retrobyter -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (5/10/2008 12:53:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eschatologist

quote:

ORIGINAL: bitnpiece

Lately, I've noticed a lot of Full and Partial Preterists stepping out and into forums....When I finally understood their agenda, I turned to Dan.9:24-27 for a closer look...

I spent the last 6 months trying to interpret and explain Daniel's 70 Weeks...

Figuring the weeks nearly did me in, however, endtimeprophecy.us contains a post that disproves the 'no gap theory' held by Full Preterists..

And, it's only a matter of time before I post an additional paper that will make 'null and void' the Partial Preterists views.

Let me know what you think...Please, no comments from the peanut gallery, Full and Partial Preterisms...I already know the agreement, which is why I posted here...

bit...


To me the 70 weeks in Daniel chapter nine are crystal clear, and you don't need to sit down with a calculator or a slide rule or any other mathematical instrument to figure these things out. All it takes is the Lord revealing these things to you by His Spirit, "For the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God". (The Apostle Paul)

To start with. it might be helpful to some to know why we interpret the word "week" in these scriptures to mean 7 years and not 7 days. This word week is translated from a hebrew word simply meaning seven or a group of seven. In this case it means a period of seven years and not seven days, (which is the usual definition of the word "week" in english.) There is another place in the bible where it definitly uses the word week to mean a period of seven years. Jacob had to serve his uncle Laban for seven years in order to marry Laban's daughter Rachel. But he ended up working 7 years for Laban's oldest daughter, Leah, then another seven years for Rachel, then another 7 years for his share of the cattle and livestock. But the verses I wanted to mention here are Genisis 29:27-28, "Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years. And Jacob did so, and filfilled her week:(Served Laban another seven years), and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also."

So now,back to Daniel 9:24-27:

Verse 24: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy Holy city, to finish the transgression,and make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, (This is of course what Jesus came to do, to die for the sins of the world to blot out our sins and transgressions and to wash us clean by shedding his own blood and dieing for us and taking our punishment for us."In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgivness of sins; having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross."Colossians 1:14 and 2:14)
quote:

and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
This final fulfillment of bringing in everlasting righteousness and final fulfilling of the vision won't happen until Jesus' second coming when He takes over the world and "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdom's of our Lord and of His Christ."

Verse 25: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jeruselem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." Here we have the first 69 weeks divided up into 2 segments: the first seven weeks or 49 years , the second threescore and two weeks or 434 years. The 49 years is the length of time it took the Jews to re-build the temple and the city of Jeruselem that was destroyed and left in ruins when Nebachadnezzar invaded Isreal and carried away the children of Isreal as slaves to Babylon. The book of Nehemiah describes the re-building of the temple and the city of Jeruselem. The commandment sent forth to restore and to build Jeruselem was given by Artaxerxes the king of medo-Persia. Nehemiah and the people who worked with him had a lot of enemies and it was definitly built in "Troublous times". Nehemiah 4:16-18 : "And it came to pass, from that time forth, that half of my servents wrought in the work, and the other half of them held both the spears, the shields and the bows, and the habergeons: They which builded on the wall, and they that bare burdens, with those that laded, every one with one of his hands wrought in the work, and with the other hand held a weapon. For the builders, every one had a sword girded by his side and so builded. And he that sounded the trumpet was me."
When it says "to restore and to build Jeruslem unto Messiah the Prince" it simply means that all of this was in preparation for the first coming of Jesus, to prepare Isreal and the world for Jesus and so Jesus will begin His work on the earth by going first unto the lost sheep of the house of Isreal and then His message will spread abroad around the world after that.

Verse 26: "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself: (Meaning he will die for the sins of the world, because of His great love and compassion for every single person in the world, not for himself. "Greater Love hath no man than this, that a man lay down His life for His friends" {Jesus}) and the people of the Prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." So Jeruselem is built, to prepare Jeruselem for the coming of the Messiah, during the first 7 weeks (49 years) then 62 weeks later (or 434 years) Jesus is "cut off" or dies for the sins of the world, is crucified. Once Jesus' ministry on this earth is completed and His disciples get the ball rolling to take the message of salvation to the far corners of the earth to every creature and so that everybody in the world can become a child of God, God's chosen people, simply by believing in and receiving Jesus, there was no need for the temple and the physical city of Jeruselem anymore, so He had the Romans come in in 70A.D. and sack Jeruslem, crucify nearly a million Jews on the hillsides around the city, and completely destroy the temple. The seventieth week hasn't happened yet. We've only covered the first 69 weeks which ended with the crucifixion of Jesus.

Verse 27: "And he shall confirm the covnant with many for one week: (So here we have the 70th week, so, who is this he that shall confirm what covanent with who? without going into details, (since I don't want to make this too long and drawn out) we know that this is talking about the Antichrist and that he will make a seven year peace pact with several other countries. This peace pact will allow the Jews to re-build the temple in Jeruselem (that was destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D.) and restore animal sacrifice and religious worship according to the law of Moses. This is something that the religious Jews have been wanting to do for a long time. Since we know that this hasn't happened yet, we know that the 70th week hasn't happened yet either. ""And in the midst of the week(after 3 1/2 years, leaving 3 1/2 years to go he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, (stop animal sacrifices and forbid religious worship) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, (This is refering to the abomination of desolation that he will set up in the newly re-built jewish Temple in Jerulelem, where he will sit upon a throne declaring himself to be God and that everybody in the world will have to worship him.)even until the consummation, meaning until the end of the tribulation when Jesus comes back to resurrect His saints of all ages.) and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.( This is talking about the wrath of God that shall be poured out upon the wicked who remain on the earth after the resurrection and rapture of the Saints.)

So, we see that the first 69 weeks of Daniel ended with the Messiah being cut off, or crucified for the sins of the world. But the 70th week does not happen until the very end of the world, and it refers to the last seven years of world history before Jesus comes back. To me this is plain as day and clear as crystal. So, I hope this ends the controversy about whether there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week. There is. The 69th week ends when Jesus is crucified, the 70th week ends at Jesus' second coming.


Shabbat shalom (Sabbath peace), eschatologist.

A few points: When you said, "The 49 years is the length of time it took the Jews to re-build the temple and the city of Jeruselem that was destroyed and left in ruins when Nebachadnezzar invaded Isreal and carried away the children of Isreal as slaves to Babylon," you weren't quite accurate, according to Ezra. Despite the accepted date of the finish of the second Temple, Ezra shows that it was not 46 years or 49 years but closer to 139 or 140 years to rebuild the Temple! It was not finished in the lifetime of Darius I but Darius II! So, with that in mind, what DID the 49 years represent?

Secondly, again, we give this person--the "beast" (not "Antichrist")--too much credit! It is not this "beast" who "causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." It is the Messiah Himself who caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease! With His death, the veil of the Temple--which represented His flesh--was torn from the top to the bottom. This was no small feat since the veil is said by historians and Bible scholars to have been about six inches thick! While that didn't stop them from making sacrifices and oblations, if God is no longer accepting such sacrifices, then all one is doing is just butchering animals. Thus, the sacrifices stopped in the middle of the week! Yeshua`s ministry was about 3 1/2 years long. (Yochanan or John shows three passovers and His ministry started about His birthday, Rosh HaShannah, prior to the first of the three passovers.)

Furthermore, it is important to note who leaves the people "desolate." Yeshua` Himself said,

Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

The "abomination that caused desolation" was the rejection of their Messiah to be their King, as He offered Himself to be!

I still believe in a gap of time, because of what Yeshua` said, "Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." BUT, the gap is in the middle of the 70th week, not between the 69th and the 70th.

Furthermore, Revelation does not speak of 7 years, but merely 3 1/2 years or 42 months or 1260 days.

Retrobyter



Sinner-Saint -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (5/10/2008 10:04:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
...we give this person--the "beast" (not "Antichrist")--too much credit! It is not this "beast" who "causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease."

Give him too much credit?

Why is that the Bible has so many different prophetic references to him? The anti-Christ, beast of a man, little horn, man of perdition - which are ALL descriptions of the same figure - are pivotal to the end-times.

Furthermore, your reading is flawed. The "ruler who will come" is not Jesus, although Jesus is the King of Kings and will rule with an iron scepter. The ruler who will come originates with those who destroyed the city and the sanctuary in A.D. 70: the Romans. The anti-Christ is not Muslim, or Arab, or even Barack Hussein Obama. Javier Solana would be a better guess at this point because he is trying to institute the "Roadmap," is Roman by birth (European), and is anti-Christian in his temperament.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
It is the Messiah Himself who caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease!

Wrong on two counts.

First, Jesus did not command us not to follow the Law; He freed us from the Law. The Law does not bring life, only faith in the Son brings Grace and Salvation. Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. We still need the Law to convince us of our sin so we can know how much we need Jesus' redeeming Blood.

Second, the Jews did not cease offering sacrifice with Jesus' death on the cross. That was only done when the Temple (which is the only acceptable place for sacrifice in Jewish law) was destroyed. Plans are being laid now for a third Temple. I predict based on expressed intent of the newly re-formed Sanhedrin and Biblical prophecy that animal sacrifice will again be practiced in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Thus, the sacrifices stopped in the middle of the week! Yeshua`s ministry was about 3 1/2 years long.

The essential problem with your interpretation linking Jesus to the "Abominations Desolator" (siqquisim meshommen) is that only with His ransom for many on the Cross did Jesus complete the Covenant He made with us at the Last Supper - the final Passover Sederfest He performed which we still do in rememberance of Him!

The start of the one 'seven' is separate from the midpoint and in between there is a time of oppression for Christians, and a rebuilding of the Temple for the Jews. All the while, the anti-Christ is on the rise and eventually will be worshipped as a false-Christ through his false-death and false-resurrection (hence anti-Christ).

So to tie the one 'seven' to Jesus fails on a multitude of accounts and I totally reject your eschatology as being all mixed up.

(I am getting the feeling that discussing eschatology with some people is like pounding your head against a brick wall - it only feels better when you stop. Some times, I think all this arguing is useless.)



Cephyr13 -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (5/10/2008 6:45:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
I assume you got those dates off Wikipedia.

I did not. Wikipedia is no more than conventional wisdome or idle gossip. In sampling yet more websites, all I can say is that none I looked at agree with your source.

Your neat calculations fail and I think your whole eschatology is barking up the wrong tree.


I find it interesting how I posted three different google searches in my last post, and each stated one of the following dates as the starting point for the construction of the Dome of the Rock: 685, 687 and 688. Yet you just said, "In sampling yet more websites, all I can say is that NONE I looked at agree with your source." First of all, I didn't give a source. I just showed you how easy it is to find 688 as a date for the Dome of the Rock's conception. I'll show you my first source I learned this from, and then from there I just researched the validity of it... Here's what the first source says:

The False Prophet by Ellis Skolfield, pg. 44, found at www.ellisskolfield.com
Some may argue that sacrifices could have been abolished a year or two earlier,
or a couple of years later than 583BC, as suggested by the author. But none argue
that they were abolished earlier than the destruction of the temple (586BC), nor
more than ten years later. The Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa Mosque were under
construction on the temple mount for about 20 years, from 685 to 705AD. Leaving
the widest latitude for scholarly argument, that 20-year window cannot be
circumvented.
END OF EXCERPT

Again, no one is saying that they claim to know the exactly date when the Dome of the Rock ACTUALLY began construction. But we do know that the Christians in Jerusalem heeded Jesus' words from Matthew 24 and left Jerusalem immediately, but the Jews didn't. Jesus told the Christians that when they see the Abomination of Desolation standing on the temple mount, to flree Judea (Jerusalem) immediately. That's what the Christians did around 688 AD. The Jews didn't follow that command by Jesus, because the Jews were not reading the New Testament. So one million Jews got slaughtered by the Muslims that year. The rest of the Jews fled the country and the Muslims never let them back in. Until after WWII, in 1948, when Isreal was given a portion of their land back. That was 1,260 years later, exactly like the prophecy states. And then they got the temple mount and Jerusalem back exactly 1,278.5 years later, just like the prophecy states too, in 1967.

I find it interesting how you are so quick to throw out Historian's admitted inaccuracy on when the Dome of the Rock was built and say they are dead on accurate on the 685 AD date just to suit your own needs of disproving this prophecy. But it should be pointed out that the prophecies don't say "the start date of when the Abomination of Desolation standing in the holy place." The prophecies simply say that the Abomination of Desolation is there, and when you see it, flee Judea. That's about it. So we have a 20 year time period over which the Dome of the Rock was built. It could've been any time in that period of 20 years that this prophecy was fulfilled. The prophecy is opened ended like that. Apparently, it was 688.5 AD when the Christians saw it and left.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (5/10/2008 8:26:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
Apparently, it was 688.5 AD when the Christians saw it and left.

Apparently - nothing!

Your argument is so ridiculous as to be laughable. Apparently Christians fled because you find some date out of thin air for what you say is the Abominations Desolator spoken about in Daniel 9:27 being the Dome of the Rock?

Sorry! But it never happened!

There was neither a mass exodus of Christians nor a massacre of Jews during the reign of Caliph Abd al-Malik (ruled 685-705) in Jerusalem. A massacre of both Jews and Muslims happened in 1099 with the Frankish crusaders killing some 40,000 people - not any where near one million as you imagine.

We know subsequently to Daniel through Jesus as revealed to John that the Abominations Desolator is a talking image of a man (Rev 13) - not the Dome of the Rock as you imagine.

Furthermore - you are in error to try and fabricate the one week which are based on prophetic years of 360 days into some imagination of 1260 years. Your dates just don't stack up and now you're inventing history.

And Christians leave in A.D. 70? They might have left earlier with the first assault upon Jerusalem. That's not necessarily the fulfillment of Luke 21:20 and Daniel 11:45. That's just people acting in their own self-interest. Refugees survive by avoiding war-torn areas - period.



Midwest -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (5/10/2008 9:33:42 PM)

Saying the dome of the rock is the Abomination of Desolation is nothing new, Bishop Sophronius said thats what it was in the 7th century. Jerry Landay in his book, The Dome of the Rock (Newsweek, New York, NY, 1972) p. 18, records that when Khalifah Omar entered Jerusalem in 639AD, he was met by Sophronius, Bishop of the Jerusalem Church, who showed him around the city. Seeing the temple mount (then in rubble), Omar declared that he was going to build a memorial to Muhammad on the original site of the temple of God. Sophronius exclaimed in horror, "Verily, this is the Abomination of Desolation as spoken of by Daniel the prophet," and it now stands in the holy place. Though Sophronius was a very old man of about 80, Khalifah Omar put him in prison and to forced labor, the severities of which killed him.


Here is an excerpt from an excellent article on the Abomination of Desolation :
It would be difficult for a Christian to deny that the blasphemous Islamic Mosque, the Dome of the Rock, is AN abomination with it's declaration that far be it from God's transcendent majesty that he should have a son. This is the most important element in Islam known as "shirk" which is that spirit of antichrist. Nor would there be any shortage of Jews in Israel that consider it to be THE abomination of desolation, as any worship on the temple mount is precluded by this Islamic abomination. Islamic Hadith: “Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: oh servant of Allah, oh Muslim, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!” But could this be THE abomination of desolation "spoken of by Daniel the prophet" that was "set up" (or placed) to "stand" in the holy place? Read the rest Abomination of Desolation



Sinner-Saint -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (5/11/2008 12:01:43 AM)

Oh, Sophronius said it? It must be true!

Give me a break.

Jesus said: "So when you see standing in the holy place..." (MT 24:15) "Holy place" as used in the Bible refers to the Inner Sanctum where the Ark of the Covenant was kept in Jeremiah's time.

Paul said: (2Th 2:3) "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. (4) He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." That conforms to what Jesus said and it confirms reading "Holy Place" as a part of the Temple rather than the Temple Mount.

John wrote concerning the False Prophet based on what he saw in Heaven: (Rev 13:14) Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. The reason this Abomination - and the Bible speaks of idols as abominations - is so great to merit being in the plural in Daniel 9:27 is that this idol speaks! That is a first!

Really now... This is elementary. If you get this wrong, you're really going off in the wrong direction.



Retrobyter -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (5/11/2008 1:07:11 AM)

Shalom, Sinner-Saint.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
...we give this person--the "beast" (not "Antichrist")--too much credit! It is not this "beast" who "causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease."

Give him too much credit?

Why is that the Bible has so many different prophetic references to him? The anti-Christ, beast of a man, little horn, man of perdition - which are ALL descriptions of the same figure - are pivotal to the end-times.

Yes, too much credit! First of all, HE is never called the "antiChrist" in Scripture! That is a modern nomenclature that was added. You check it out: NOWHERE in Scripture is the "antichrist" a PERSON! It is a "SPIRIT!" an ATTITUDE!

Now, that said, that's not to say that there is no person called the "beast" or the "man of sin" or the "man of lawlessness" which, btw, means "man without Torah."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Furthermore, your reading is flawed. The "ruler who will come" is not Jesus, although Jesus is the King of Kings and will rule with an iron scepter. The ruler who will come originates with those who destroyed the city and the sanctuary in A.D. 70: the Romans. The anti-Christ is not Muslim, or Arab, or even Barack Hussein Obama. Javier Solana would be a better guess at this point because he is trying to institute the "Roadmap," is Roman by birth (European), and is anti-Christian in his temperament.


Furthermore, I take offense to the suggestion that my reading of Dani'el 9:24-27 is "flawed!" I read this passage IN HEBREW and not in English. On the other hand, even in English translations, you are not being consistent with the rules of English grammar! Since when is the antecedent for the word "he" ever to be found in a prepositional phrase?! In both English and American English, this is a grammatical error, and yet you would have us to believe that the antecedent of "he" in verse 27 is the "prince that shall come" in verse 26?! NO! The phrase is "the people of the prince that shall come"; thus, the "prince that shall come" is the OBJECT of the prepositional phrase beginning with the word "of!" The antecedent of the word "he" in verse 27 is the "Messiah" in verse 26!

In Hebrew, it's even easier to see. The confirmer of the covenant IS the Messiah! BTW, this is the NEW COVENANT spoken of by Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) the prophet (Jer. 31:31), put on hold by the Messiah Himself FOR ISRA'EL until ISRA'EL (with whom the covenant was made) can say "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!" (Matt. 23:37-39) (The ice is beginning to break, by the way! They are beginning to learn about their Messiah and to accept Yeshua` as being that Messiah.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
It is the Messiah Himself who caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease!

Wrong on two counts.

First, Jesus did not command us not to follow the Law; He freed us from the Law. The Law does not bring life, only faith in the Son brings Grace and Salvation. Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. We still need the Law to convince us of our sin so we can know how much we need Jesus' redeeming Blood.

Second, the Jews did not cease offering sacrifice with Jesus' death on the cross. That was only done when the Temple (which is the only acceptable place for sacrifice in Jewish law) was destroyed. Plans are being laid now for a third Temple. I predict based on expressed intent of the newly re-formed Sanhedrin and Biblical prophecy that animal sacrifice will again be practiced in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount.


While I quite agree with you that Yeshua` did not come to abolish Torah but came to fulfill it, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HE DID BY FULFILLING THE NEED FOR THE BURNT OFFERING AND THE OBLATIONS! Sorry, but your logic is flawed. Oh, so we need the sacrifices to "convince us of our sin so we can know how much we need Jesus' redeeming Blood"? In light of Hebrews, that makes NO sense whatsoever!

As I said, the Jews could have "offered" all the "sacrifices" they wanted to while they had a Temple and it would have made no difference in God's acceptance of their sacrifices! It's not MAN who makes the sacrifices; it's GOD who ACCEPTS the sacrifices that makes the sacrifices "sacrifices!" Without God's acceptance of their "sacrifices," all they have done is to have slaughtered some animals!

Furthermore, I know QUITE WELL about the plans to rear a third Temple, and the Jews may indeed attempt to build a third Temple, but if they do, it will be merely a work of men's hands. The Orthodox Jews know that, according to Y'chezk'el's prophecy (Ezek. 40-48), it is the MESSIAH Himself who must rear the third Temple!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Thus, the sacrifices stopped in the middle of the week! Yeshua`s ministry was about 3 1/2 years long.

The essential problem with your interpretation linking Jesus to the "Abominations Desolator" (siqquisim meshommen) is that only with His ransom for many on the Cross did Jesus complete the Covenant He made with us at the Last Supper - the final Passover Sederfest He performed which we still do in rememberance of Him!


No, the Covenant was not made with US; the Covenant was made with THE HOUSE OF ISRA'EL and with THE HOUSE OF Y'HUDAH:

Jer 31:31-34 (also Heb. 8:8-13)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
KJV

If these verses can be applied to us as Gentile believers, "Christians," they can only be applied as we view ourselves as being grafted into the Olive Tree of David's Kingdom promised to His Heir, Yeshua`. Furthermore, Yeshua` is the MEDIATOR of the New Covenant (Heb. 12:24)! It is by His BLOOD that the Covenant is executed!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
The start of the one 'seven' is separate from the midpoint and in between there is a time of oppression for Christians, and a rebuilding of the Temple for the Jews. All the while, the anti-Christ is on the rise and eventually will be worshipped as a false-Christ through his false-death and false-resurrection (hence anti-Christ).

IN YOUR OPINION! Where did you come up with all this? From the Left Behind series?! Sorry, but this is such a piece-meal collage of theory that you would be better served to question your OWN interpretations!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
So to tie the one 'seven' to Jesus fails on a multitude of accounts and I totally reject your eschatology as being all mixed up.

(I am getting the feeling that discussing eschatology with some people is like pounding your head against a brick wall - it only feels better when you stop. Some times, I think all this arguing is useless.)


I'm only "mixed up" IF you insist on viewing prophecy from a pretribulational rapturistic point of view. AND, if a person is not willing to consider the possibility that he might be wrong, you may be right about discussing eschatology. I was once a strong advocate for pretribulational rapturism, but there were ... inconsistencies that I noticed.

Please don't get me wrong, however. I am still a STAUNCH advocate for premillennialism. It's just that NONE of the current sub-views -- pretrib, posttrib, midtrib, prewrath, partial rapturism -- NONE of them match the Scriptures 100%!

You must be willing to be open-minded. Have you ever read through a book of the Bible in a single sitting? If so, then I would challenge you to read through the prophecies of the Tanakh (the OT) in single sittings! MAKE THE TIME to do this; you will never "FIND the time." Use a version that will put it into perspective (I would recommend the Complete Jewish Bible), and read Z'kharyahu (Zechariah) in a single sitting! And, as you read, don't try to fit what you're reading into your system of eschatology. Let the words flow off the pages into you, and enjoy the story! You might just find that what you are reading is different than what you have been led to believe and accept.

Retrobyter



Sinner-Saint -> RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 (5/11/2008 8:06:18 AM)

1. The term anti-Christ is applied to a person in John's letter. It is a perfectly good term.

2. English grammar works like Hebrew grammar. The "he" in our translations is put there for our reading ease, but the action would again refer to the last person mentioned and that is the 'ruler who will come' and we know from Gabriel that he qualifies that person as Roman. Jesus was from the Jews.

3. Animal sacrifices were carried out in the Temple after Jesus' one and only atoning sacrifice of His body which was Salvation and our sin was washed clean with the redemptive power of His shed blood. However, now you are stretching the prophecy that sacrifice will cease and that will be done by a person, the 'ruler who will come.' Sacrifice did not cease with Jesus' payment of our ransom; indeed, Jesus did not abolish that Law. This practice will cease at a future time - specifically: the midpoint of the one 'seven.'

4. The covenant WAS made with us. Jesus did it at the Last Supper.

5. Where did I discern that the beginning of the one 'seven' was different than the midpoint which you (like some Preterists) confuse? It's in the Bible. Where did I discern the false Christ's false death and false resurrection? It's in the Bible.

And I should read through a whole book of the Bible in one sitting? [8|]



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