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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/1/2008 10:08:14 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
Do you think that many African American churches believe that the bigotry that existed in some southern white churches of, say 50 years ago (pre-Civil Rights Era), still exists to the same extent today?
I will try to answer, no not the same extent. But the most segregated hour is Church hour. Klan members say they are Christians, where are they all going to Church. I would also add that it is northern Churches, many people do no realize NEW York did not end slavery until 1827.
hypotheical--- if you go to an all black church , how do you know that it welcomes whites?
Being a huge racist before getting saved, I learned they have one thing in common -hate. Jesus preached love.
Anytime I hear a pastor putting race into sermons, I look at them because it is not in the Bible. It's Jew and Gentile.
_____________________________
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/2/2008 11:58:59 AM
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ukfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
I wasn't really talking about right now but the not so distant past. Like would there be BLT if it didn't take 100 years after the end of slavery for blacks to get some semblance of equality within the law.
Black Liberation Theology is only about 40 years old. It has more in common with its philosophical predecessor, Catholic Liberation Theology than it does with the American institution of slavery. Roman Catholic Liberation Theological apparently has some Socialistic Communistic roots. To suggest that BLT grew directly out from the American institution of slavery ignores history.
How does it ignore history? If slavery and the aftereffects of it caused blacks to look for a religious theology that valued them, I would consider that a direct influence.
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/2/2008 12:52:57 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
How does it ignore history? If slavery and the aftereffects of it caused blacks to look for a religious theology that valued them, I would consider that a direct influence.
It would seem that if anyone is looking for theology to value them, they would just believe the Scripture and understand they are valued by God to the extent of God sacrificing His own Son for them.
The Scripture teaches over and over that if we are a Christian we are to be satisfied in that, content with where we are because of our relationship with God.
(Php 4:11) Not that I speak according to need, for I have learned to be content in whatever state I am.
Scripture does not tell us to revolt, complain, or be like someone else, but to be contnt that we are children of God.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/2/2008 1:13:03 PM
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tracydolls
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when you become a slave to Christ, you are free. Do I understand it. Yes. But he (Wright) is not doing as that Bible says to do. I think there are some real dangers in what he is preaching. What does it serve, but hate. Hate breeds more hate. How can we make people repent of racism? We can't we are to turn the other cheek.........
_____________________________
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/2/2008 1:26:12 PM
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ukfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
How does it ignore history? If slavery and the aftereffects of it caused blacks to look for a religious theology that valued them, I would consider that a direct influence.
It would seem that if anyone is looking for theology to value them, they would just believe the Scripture and understand they are valued by God to the extent of God sacrificing His own Son for them.
The Scripture teaches over and over that if we are a Christian we are to be satisfied in that, content with where we are because of our relationship with God.
(Php 4:11) Not that I speak according to need, for I have learned to be content in whatever state I am.
Scripture does not tell us to revolt, complain, or be like someone else, but to be contnt that we are children of God.
Thanks
RC
I agree with you about that. What I meant was, if blacks see alot of whites ( and I don't mean all) just giving lip service to the Gospel of Christ while behaving in a very unloving, un-Christlike way(for instance, like completely ignoring the golden rule) then I can see why something like BLT might develop.
And btw, I don't really know anything about the specifics of BLT so I can't talk about that.
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/2/2008 1:29:15 PM
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bob97
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quote:
Hate breeds more hate. How can we make people repent of racism? We can't we are to turn the other cheek.........
One thing we can do is expose the truth of what is occurring and make people aware. One good outcome of this exposure and debate is that it keeps the name of God and Christ at the center of our national focus (good and evil).
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/2/2008 8:53:21 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
I agree with you about that. What I meant was, if blacks see alot of whites ( and I don't mean all) just giving lip service to the Gospel of Christ while behaving in a very unloving, un-Christlike way(for instance, like completely ignoring the golden rule) then I can see why something like BLT might develop.
Would you please tell me where the Golden Rule is in Script;ure, I seem to have a bit of a problem finding it. Not saying its not there, just having a problem finding it.
Also my reaction to how others treat me is something I am not responsible for, but my reaction is.
I like to say we are o% responsible to God for how others treat us, but we are 100% responsible to God how we react.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/2/2008 11:17:05 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2225
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quote:
are more white people on welfare than blacks. look at the stats
Obviously. But as a per capita how to the percentages break down? What percentage of the white population is on welfare verses what percentage of AA are on welfare? Since 75% of AA babies are born out of wedlock the percentage of AA on welfare must be fairly high.
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/2/2008 11:20:50 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2225
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quote:
do I see a lot of preachers preaching hate, yes.
White or Black? Name them.
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/3/2008 5:44:42 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
Black Liberation Theology is only about 40 years old. It has more in common with its philosophical predecessor, Catholic Liberation Theology than it does with the American institution of slavery. Roman Catholic Liberation Theological apparently has some Socialistic Communistic roots. To suggest that BLT grew directly out from the American institution of slavery ignores history.
How does it ignore history? If slavery and the aftereffects of it caused blacks to look for a religious theology that valued them, I would consider that a direct influence.
It ignores history because BLT did not grow out of slavery. BLT's roots are in communism. It followed the pattern of communism's challenge for the masses to rise up and overthrow the government they live under.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/3/2008 5:53:47 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
Do you think that many African American churches believe that the bigotry that existed in some southern white churches of, say 50 years ago (pre-Civil Rights Era), still exists to the same extent today?
I will try to answer, no not the same extent. But the most segregated hour is Church hour. Klan members say they are Christians, where are they all going to Church. I would also add that it is northern Churches, many people do no realize NEW York did not end slavery until 1827.
hypotheical--- if you go to an all black church , how do you know that it welcomes whites?
Being a huge racist before getting saved, I learned they have one thing in common -hate. Jesus preached love.
Anytime I hear a pastor putting race into sermons, I look at them because it is not in the Bible. It's Jew and Gentile.
Many blacks do not attend predominantly white churches and vice versa. But frankly, my experience has never been that neither were welcome. My preference is that I don't like black style of worship. I attended a black church one evening many years ago. I got there after the service started and an hour later they were still singing with no end in sight. It was a Wed night service and I got the impression that it was a typical service. It was a good and beautiful service, but I couldn't stay. I wanted to hear a sermon.
Many years ago a black family attended a church I was a member of. After the service was over, the father told one of our members that "You all need to loosen up." He just wanted something more lively and upbeat and we were too boring, I guess.
No problem there in either place. Just different styles. For someone to say that segregated worship automatically means unwelcome-ness or racial hate---they just simply oversimplify the issues.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/3/2008 8:55:50 PM
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CropDuster
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I suspect Wright is a bit of a con-artist. Somehow, I get the feeling he's insincere about his crazy allegations aimed at the White Establishment. It's more of a professional 'schtik' to him than personal conviction. After all, he's getting a mansion on a golf-course as a retirement gift. Just a suspicion.
_____________________________
"If you rightly bear your cross, it will bear you."
Thomas a Kempis: The Imitation of Christ
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/3/2008 9:10:05 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2225
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CropDuster
I suspect Wright is a bit of a con-artist. Somehow, I get the feeling he's insincere about his crazy allegations aimed at the White Establishment. It's more of a professional 'schtik' to him than personal conviction. After all, he's getting a mansion on a golf-course as a retirement gift. Just a suspicion.
I believe he is sincere in his dislike of the white race and has boughht into the evil white man teaching that is so prevalent in today's revisionist history. This is NOT to say people were w/o flaw but they were not the evil men today's as today's history depicts them.
_____________________________
The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/3/2008 9:23:21 PM
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CropDuster
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I agree for the most part. I just find it hard to believe that at his age, given his long and very public career, he still believes in such nonsense, down deep. I suspect he might have genuinely believed this madness in his idealistic, rebellious youth, as a brand-new pastor perhaps, fresh out of seminary, back in the 'radical old days'. After experiencing success with it, and building his entire family life and career on that success, he probably made it the mainstay of his ministry. Now that he's old, and approaching the end of the journey, I bet he regrets and has dispelled a lot it, albeit privately. Heck....he's moving into an all-White neighborhood upon retiring.
_____________________________
"If you rightly bear your cross, it will bear you."
Thomas a Kempis: The Imitation of Christ
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/4/2008 10:25:58 AM
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ukfan
Posts: 352
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
I agree with you about that. What I meant was, if blacks see alot of whites ( and I don't mean all) just giving lip service to the Gospel of Christ while behaving in a very unloving, un-Christlike way(for instance, like completely ignoring the golden rule) then I can see why something like BLT might develop.
Would you please tell me where the Golden Rule is in Script;ure, I seem to have a bit of a problem finding it. Not saying its not there, just having a problem finding it.
Also my reaction to how others treat me is something I am not responsible for, but my reaction is.
I like to say we are o% responsible to God for how others treat us, but we are 100% responsible to God how we react.
Thsnks
RC
Mat 7:12 In everything, treat others as you would want them to treat you, for this fulfills the law and the prophets.
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/4/2008 10:28:27 AM
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ukfan
Posts: 352
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
Black Liberation Theology is only about 40 years old. It has more in common with its philosophical predecessor, Catholic Liberation Theology than it does with the American institution of slavery. Roman Catholic Liberation Theological apparently has some Socialistic Communistic roots. To suggest that BLT grew directly out from the American institution of slavery ignores history.
How does it ignore history? If slavery and the aftereffects of it caused blacks to look for a religious theology that valued them, I would consider that a direct influence.
It ignores history because BLT did not grow out of slavery. BLT's roots are in communism. It followed the pattern of communism's challenge for the masses to rise up and overthrow the government they live under.
Even if this is true, communism's target audience is the poor, the mistreated. Why were blacks poor? Why did they have no (or little) protection under the law?
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/4/2008 10:34:26 AM
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CropDuster
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The problem is that it mitigates against individual responsibility, which is the only means to a happy existence in America today. Dwelling on the past, and investing maximum energy in blaming others for one's problems are unproductive. Also, at what point does it become nothing less than a quest for revenge?
< Message edited by CropDuster -- 5/4/2008 5:32:21 PM >
_____________________________
"If you rightly bear your cross, it will bear you."
Thomas a Kempis: The Imitation of Christ
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/4/2008 3:39:40 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
Mat 7:12 In everything, treat others as you would want them to treat you, for this fulfills the law and the prophets.
Thank you
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/4/2008 4:46:20 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2132
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
It ignores history because BLT did not grow out of slavery. BLT's roots are in communism. It followed the pattern of communism's challenge for the masses to rise up and overthrow the government they live under.
Even if this is true, communism's target audience is the poor, the mistreated. Why were blacks poor?
BLT tells the black man that he is "poor" if his income is less than the white man he sees. He can be getting three squares, a car and a roof over his head but if his home is not as nice as the other guy's, he's being "exploited."
BLT declares for black men everywhere to proclaim their victim status and overthrow the oppressors (meaning those who have more material wealth)
In pre-Civil Rights America, many people were told to sit in the back of the bus and that their grandparents were slaves. Because of that, people can proclaim their victim status even if they weren't alive then.
Communism exploits (or seeks to exploit) those who, rightly or wrongly, have some reason to proclaim themselves as victims. It was for the purpose of cultivating allies for rise of communism. Every society is going to have some (or several) groups (classes) who were oppressed either at present or some time in the past. Communism incites class conflict and inter-class warfare.
And, like its communistic cousin, BLT rouses people to envy what others have, the very thing scripture warns us against.
quote:
Why did they have no (or little) protection under the law?
We are not living in pre-Civil Rights American nor is slavery legal. Everyone is entitled to seek legal protection.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/4/2008 6:32:24 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2132
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CropDuster
The problem is that it mitigates against individual responsibility, which is the only means to a happy existence in America today. Dwelling on the past, and investing maximum energy in blaming others for one's problems are unproductive. Also, at what point does it become nothing less than a quest for revenge?
Indeed. BLT encourages envy, unforgiveness (bitterness), and materialism. Keep in mind that the materialist does not have to be rich to be materialistic. It is a materialistic mindset that, for example, that would tell a well-fed but poor and moneyless person that theft is justified because he has less than his neighbor.
In America, we can go to school and work hard at money making professions--if we choose to. If we don't choose to and if we are of sound mind and body--it is no one's fault but our own.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/4/2008 9:04:02 PM
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ukfan
Posts: 352
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
It ignores history because BLT did not grow out of slavery. BLT's roots are in communism. It followed the pattern of communism's challenge for the masses to rise up and overthrow the government they live under.
Even if this is true, communism's target audience is the poor, the mistreated. Why were blacks poor?
BLT tells the black man that he is "poor" if his income is less than the white man he sees. He can be getting three squares, a car and a roof over his head but if his home is not as nice as the other guy's, he's being "exploited."
BLT declares for black men everywhere to proclaim their victim status and overthrow the oppressors (meaning those who have more material wealth)
In pre-Civil Rights America, many people were told to sit in the back of the bus and that their grandparents were slaves. Because of that, people can proclaim their victim status even if they weren't alive then.
But I'm not talking about BLT now. I'm talking about its origins. If BLT originated 40 years ago, then blacks were being exploited. It wasn't just BLT trying to make them feel jealous. Blacks were institutionally denied jobs, voting rights, basic human decency and lived under fear of violence and death for things as little as simply associating with whites.
BLT might pander and foster jealousy now but if we as Christians had been proactive in socially promoting the Gospel of Christ and demanding basic human rights for everyone, BLT wouldn't have had a foothold or a reason to develop.
_____________________________
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church...." -ARCHBISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/5/2008 3:55:45 AM
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Luv4self
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
Until the Rev. Wright story hit the news I had never heard of BLT so forgive me for my ignorance.
I am African-American and I have never heard of BLT either...No church that I have ever stepped into ever preached the msgs even similar of Rev. Wright. People reading this thread and forum, please know that not all black churches believe in this doctorine...I would say those that do are a minority.
_____________________________
Don't just live... be alive!
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/5/2008 6:23:47 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2132
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
But I'm not talking about BLT now. I'm talking about its origins. If BLT originated 40 years ago, then blacks were being exploited.
Were they? Possibly, but not in the sense that you might think. Affirmative action began in the 70s (I believe) and legal rules were put into place in order to make the court systems more equitable. Keep in mind that the injustices of Birmingham, Ala. in the 60s were not universal. In the industrial north where I grew up, home ownership and job securities were the mainstay for blacks before that.
The kind of exploitation of blacks that I saw was using racial discontent as political tool of politically minded people. Dr. MLK has been hailed because of his Civil Rights achievements. Rightly so. But since that time, politically minded people have attempted to exploit his legacy and take political office based upon issues 30 years old. ("Are you a poor minority? Vote for me and feel better.")
quote:
It wasn't just BLT trying to make them feel jealous. Blacks were institutionally denied jobs, voting rights, basic human decency and lived under fear of violence and death for things as little as simply associating with whites.
On behalf of my ancestors and other members of my race, I apologize for those things. But, while I grant that the things you mention are a matter of historical record, they were not universal. And I know of nothing like that happening in my sphere of influence for 30 years. The images of 50s and 60s Mississippi and Alabama are played over and over in order to make it seem that the rest of us were doing it too.
BLT encourages bitterness and unforgiveness for things 30 years old? When Jeremiah Wright speaks of "chains," many are apt to think of it literally. What is he talking about? Was he personally in chains? I don't think so. Unless he was speaking figuratively, why did he imply he was?
quote:
BLT might pander and foster jealousy now but if we as Christians had been proactive in socially promoting the Gospel of Christ and demanding basic human rights for everyone, BLT wouldn't have had a foothold or a reason to develop.
Look. Many of us have had no more control over those things than you have had. I don't know about you, but I have never been in a supervisory position. And I have never seen anyone denied a job on the basis of race. Never, unless you count stuff happening on TV 600 miles away. But, many people were convinced their economic status and legal problems were the result of race. If they were constantly told their personal failures were the result of race, every personal hurdle becomes another possible reason for their problems.
Keep in mind that freedom to succeed also means freedom to attempt things and fail for all of the normal reasons. I have had job failures myself. But I never had the excuse that race could have been the reason. Most of those reasons were things I didn't know about and didn't understand at the time. If people had handed me some plausible excuse, I might have grabbed it in a second. Frankly, while my memory of those negative events is poor now, I probably did exactly that.
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/5/2008 6:26:20 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2132
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Luv4self
quote:
ORIGINAL: ukfan
Until the Rev. Wright story hit the news I had never heard of BLT so forgive me for my ignorance.
I am African-American and I have never heard of BLT either...No church that I have ever stepped into ever preached the msgs even similar of Rev. Wright. People reading this thread and forum, please know that not all black churches believe in this doctorine...I would say those that do are a minority.
Thank you for saying that. I agree with you that BLT is not a pervasive doctrine. But it is certainly vocal. I had not heard of it until recently either.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 5/5/2008 5:52:10 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Black liberation theology - 5/5/2008 6:44:12 AM
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CropDuster
Posts: 60
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Liberation Theology has a place in Christianity. It has accomplished much good in many communities. African-Americans are certainly entitled to invoke its spirit from time to time, given America's regrettable legacy of slavery and Jim Crow. But, it's only one aspect of Christian theology, one of many, and the fight for social justice which it encourages, isn't the primary means of one's salvation. Therefore, Liberation Theology shouldn't become the primary focus of any Christian. It's a topic for periodic examination and discussion, a framework for Christian justice-making, but not the essence of Christianity. In the end, the individual must earn his salvation by living a good life.
_____________________________
"If you rightly bear your cross, it will bear you."
Thomas a Kempis: The Imitation of Christ
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