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Would He say, "by His stripes we were healed" if it wasnt true?

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The Bible never tells us sickness is suffering for Jesus

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The Word doesnt say that Paul's thorn was sickness, but your determined it was.

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The Word doesnt say that Paul suffered sickness as a result of persecutions yet your determined to assume he did.

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ORIGINAL: figmentPez

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The Word doesnt say that Paul's thorn was sickness, but your determined it was.

It doesn't matter if Paul's thorn was a physical illness, it was some sort of affliction that Paul prayed for releif from, and God said "no", that the thorn was to remain and that he (God) would work through Paul's weakness.

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The Word doesnt say that Paul suffered sickness as a result of persecutions yet your determined to assume he did.

It doesn't matter if Paul suffered sickness as a result of persecutions, he did suffer sickness, as did Timothy, and Epaphroditus suffered illness specifically because of his hard work for the kingdom.

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It doesn't matter if Paul's thorn was a physical illness, it was some sort of affliction that Paul prayed for releif from, and God said "no", that the thorn was to remain and that he (God) would work through Paul's weakness.

Yes, it does matter because the Word does say we will suffer persecution for our faith, but it doesnt say it is God's will for us to suffer sickness.

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It doesn't matter if Paul suffered sickness as a result of persecutions, he did suffer sickness, as did Timothy, and Epaphroditus suffered illness specifically because of his hard work for the kingdom.

Unless I am mistaken, we dont preach Paul's gospel, Appollos gospel, but the gospel of Jesus Christ.

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ORIGINAL: figmentPez

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God never answers a prayer to a new testament saint with a "no."

He didn't?

Matthew 20:20-23
20Then the mother of Zebedee's sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him.
21"What is it you want?" he asked.
She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."
22"You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said to them. "Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?"
"We can," they answered.
23Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father."

That certainly sounds like a "no" to me.

EDIT: not to mention Paul's thorn from 2Cor 12, regardless of what you think the thorn was, Paul pleaded with the Lord to remove it, and the Lord said NO.

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ORIGINAL: figmentPez

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Would He say, "by His stripes we were healed" if it wasnt true?

Healed of what, exactly? We are healed of sin. What was broken by our transgressions has been made whole, however, we still live in a fallen world. In a sense we share in Christ's perfection, but we are still not made perfect yet. This side of heaven we will always be fallible, always have weakness, always have tears and heartache and, yes, even disease.

When Paul first came to the Galatians, it was because of an illness, such a bad one that they had to go to great lengths to take care of him. Yet, despite his illness, they still treated him as a messenger from God! The Galatians didn't look down on Paul, or on Paul's faith, because he was sick! Why do WOF look down on the sick as if their faith is lacking?

Galatians 4:13-14
13but you know that it was because of a bodily illness that I preached the gospel to you the first time; 14and that which was a trial to you in my bodily condition you did not despise or loathe, but you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself.

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The Bible never tells us sickness is suffering for Jesus

I think the above passage of scripture definitively proves that God can even use physical sicknesses to further the Gospel. And if you think that's not clear enough, look up Phillipians 2:25-30, where Paul recounts the actions of Epaphroditus, who was sick to the point of death, because of his work for Christ, working hard to do what others were not.

P31W pointed out that Timothy had a stomach problem, not only that, but he had frequent health problems!

1Timothy 5:23
23No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.

Will you claim that Paul and Timothy lacked faith or lacked knowledge? Which is it? Was Paul sick because he lacked faith to claim the healing you say he is entitled to on this earth? Was Timothy ignorant of this supposed ability for all Christians to have flawless health? Should Epaphroditus have simply not worked as hard, knowing that sickness never advances the Gospel?

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ORIGINAL: lw9

I'm going to re-post this since we're on a new page.

Questions: Jan Crouch had cancer recently. If she was living according to a faith which claims freedom from afflictions, sickness, and disease - and she being one of the foremost proponents and followers - why did she get cancer? Since WOF followers can ask anything in faith and God is obligated to respond, why couldn't they agree to her healing and 'speak' it into existence? Why did she have to have surgery since WOF claims miraculous healings through any one of it's high profile teachers? Certainly they could have found one WOF prophet to do the job. What was the official WOF excuse for her having cancer while they blast their followers with any sickness as being 'weak in faith' or having demons?

I seriously would like to know what the WOF explanation is for this.

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Big difference: Jesus had not died, and the church had not started. And as I pointed out, when we pray what we think is a prayer against God's will - He never even hears it. So He will neither answer yes or no: it will be ignored. Therefore, we must determine God's will before we pray. As for Paul's thorn, did God say "no?"

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ORIGINAL: lw9

thewind..

sorry.. who were you addressing in post # 155?

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ORIGINAL: figmentPez

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Would He say, "by His stripes we were healed" if it wasnt true?

Healed of what, exactly? We are healed of sin. What was broken by our transgressions has been made whole, however, we still live in a fallen world. In a sense we share in Christ's perfection, but we are still not made perfect yet. This side of heaven we will always be fallible, always have weakness, always have tears and heartache and, yes, even disease.

When Paul first came to the Galatians, it was because of an illness, such a bad one that they had to go to great lengths to take care of him. Yet, despite his illness, they still treated him as a messenger from God! The Galatians didn't look down on Paul, or on Paul's faith, because he was sick! Why do WOF look down on the sick as if their faith is lacking?

Galatians 4:13-14
13but you know that it was because of a bodily illness that I preached the gospel to you the first time; 14and that which was a trial to you in my bodily condition you did not despise or loathe, but you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself.

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The Bible never tells us sickness is suffering for Jesus

I think the above passage of scripture definitively proves that God can even use physical sicknesses to further the Gospel. And if you think that's not clear enough, look up Phillipians 2:25-30, where Paul recounts the actions of Epaphroditus, who was sick to the point of death, because of his work for Christ, working hard to do what others were not.

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ORIGINAL: figmentPez

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It doesn't matter if Paul's thorn was a physical illness, it was some sort of affliction that Paul prayed for releif from, and God said "no", that the thorn was to remain and that he (God) would work through Paul's weakness.

Yes, it does matter because the Word does say we will suffer persecution for our faith, but it doesnt say it is God's will for us to suffer sickness.

So, we only suffer "persecution" not illness? Then why were Paul, Timothy and Epaphroditus all sick?

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It doesn't matter if Paul suffered sickness as a result of persecutions, he did suffer sickness, as did Timothy, and Epaphroditus suffered illness specifically because of his hard work for the kingdom.

Unless I am mistaken, we dont preach Paul's gospel, Appollos gospel, but the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I'm at a total loss as to what your point is with this. Paul preached the Gospel of Christ, Timothy preached the Gospel of Christ, Epaphroditus preached the Gospel of Christ. All of them got sick, Epaphroditus in particular got sick directly because of his hard work for the kingdom. Why did they suffer, if WOF doctrine is right and we should never get sick?

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Jan is a mature Christian. The time comes for every Christian where they must stand on their own faith. Jan was wise enough to know that her faith was not up to fighting cancer, so she went to the doctor. I would say she made the right choice. "Milk-toast" faith is not up to fighting cancer. A disease sent to kill, such as cancer, is not something to "test" faith on. Thank God, she had wisdom.

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However, her experience in no way negates healing. All it means is that she needs to make more faith "deposites." If your checking account is not up to a new car price, but you want to pay cash for one, you will have to make more deposits. It is the same with faith.

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I also would never presume to tell anyone it was because of their lack of faith that they didnt receive a healing

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Because he certainly heard the petition he woudln't grant. I think your proposition that God does not hear prayers offered in earnest to be disgusting. God is not deaf, that his ears should miss anything. God knows all of our prayers, even those that are not in his will to grant, and God is big enough to say "no, I have a better plan for you". I pity you and your tiny little god who is manipulated by men's prayers to the point that he has to hide from them if he doesn't want to fulfill them.

Are you really going to split hairs about Paul's thorn? No, God did not use the word "no" but he did not remove the thorn, either. He told Paul that God's power is made perfect in Paul's weakness. Even if you think he did remove the thorn (which is not supported by the passage, at all). It would still only be on the third time, the first two times would still have been refused.

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1 John 5
14And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

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Simply put, there can be a difference between what happens to Christians and what God's will is.

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I'll admit that we have to read between the lines, but doesn't this say that if we ask in His will He hears us? What then, is the flip side of this? If we ask amiss, He doesn't even hear our prayer. I didn't come up with this - God did.

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ORIGINAL: figmentPez

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However, her experience in no way negates healing. All it means is that she needs to make more faith "deposites." If your checking account is not up to a new car price, but you want to pay cash for one, you will have to make more deposits. It is the same with faith.

This has got to be the most disgusting thing I have heard today. What about others, why didn't anyone else have faith for her healing? The centurion in Matthew 8 had faith that Jesus could heal the centurion's servant, so much that the centurion knew that Jesus didn't even have to visit in person to heal. The centurion had great faith, that Jesus said was not equaled in Israel. Why does WOF always blame the sick person for lack of faith? Why don't others have faith for the sick person?

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ORIGINAL: figmentPez

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I also would never presume to tell anyone it was because of their lack of faith that they didnt receive a healing

Lecoop has, do you disagree with him?

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ORIGINAL: thewindsup

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ORIGINAL: figmentPez

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However, her experience in no way negates healing. All it means is that she needs to make more faith "deposites." If your checking account is not up to a new car price, but you want to pay cash for one, you will have to make more deposits. It is the same with faith.

This has got to be the most disgusting thing I have heard today. What about others, why didn't anyone else have faith for her healing? The centurion in Matthew 8 had faith that Jesus could heal the centurion's servant, so much that the centurion knew that Jesus didn't even have to visit in person to heal. The centurion had great faith, that Jesus said was not equaled in Israel. Why does WOF always blame the sick person for lack of faith? Why don't others have faith for the sick person?

Dont forget healing from medicine is also healing from God.

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Jan is a mature Christian. The time comes for every Christian where they must stand on their own faith. Jan was wise enough to know that her faith was not up to fighting cancer, so she went to the doctor. I would say she made the right choice. "Milk-toast" faith is not up to fighting cancer. A disease sent to kill, such as cancer, is not something to "test" faith on. Thank God, she had wisdom.