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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 3:52:23 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
where does it say that in the b-i-b-l-e? my bible says God is not willing that any should perish
Yes, that's referring to salvation - not absolute physical healing while in these unglorified bodies.
i believe you reffered to acts which was lukes account of the end of matthew and the end of mark, which was Jesus confirming the words spoken was truth by the signs following ie the sick being healed in the name of Jesus
What's your point? Not sure if you're agreeing that the passage you cited refers to salvation.. or ?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 3:53:40 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
pray4all:
Have you ever heard of Joni Erickson-Tada?
She has more love and obedience to God in her pinky than I probably have in my whole body.
She is a quadrapeligic (sp) and for years went to faith healers. When she wasn't healed, God revealed to her that He wanted to use her condition to glorify Him.
Do you believe that God can use someone like that to do His work? You can't believe that if you believe that it's God's will that EVERYBODY is healed.
maybe you should pump up your love and obedience factor, especially if you notice you are lacking in it.
so then she got revelation knowledge? apart from the word of God?????
i believe God can cause a donkey to speak for him, not implying that that woman is a donkey of course
Are you familiar with Joni's testimony? Who she is?
Just wondering.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 3:54:32 PM
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pray4all
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
There is only One that is perfect and he hasn't come back yet.
WOF worship a false god who does as they bid. In the relm of politics. liberals worship a government who does as they bid. Both are idolatrous and against the Bible.
didn't realize Jesus was a false God.
all denominations would put God in there box, because you or others believe wof puts God in their box, you actually place God in yours, said lovingly of course
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 3:57:42 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
didn't realize Jesus was a false God.
What he means is that many Word of Faith preachers/teachers believe/present a Jesus that is not the Jesus of the Bible. But a false one - the skin of the truth stuffed with a lie.
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
all denominations would put God in there box, because you or others believe wof puts God in their box, you actually place God in yours, said lovingly of course
God places Himself in a box - the Bible, His Word. Do you believe the Bible, the 66 books, are His Word for all of mankind? If so, then my friend, that is the "box" He places Himself in for us.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 3:57:57 PM
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pray4all
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
pray4all:
Have you ever heard of Joni Erickson-Tada?
She has more love and obedience to God in her pinky than I probably have in my whole body.
She is a quadrapeligic (sp) and for years went to faith healers. When she wasn't healed, God revealed to her that He wanted to use her condition to glorify Him.
Do you believe that God can use someone like that to do His work? You can't believe that if you believe that it's God's will that EVERYBODY is healed.
maybe you should pump up your love and obedience factor, especially if you notice you are lacking in it.
so then she got revelation knowledge? apart from the word of God?????
i believe God can cause a donkey to speak for him, not implying that that woman is a donkey of course
Are you familiar with Joni's testimony? Who she is?
Just wondering.
could she posibly be a prophet? she got revelation knowledge? does she say what the bible says?
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 3:59:27 PM
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pray4all
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
didn't realize Jesus was a false God.
What he means is that many Word of Faith preachers/teachers believe/present a Jesus that is not the Jesus of the Bible. But a false one - the skin of the truth stuffed with a lie.
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
all denominations would put God in there box, because you or others believe wof puts God in their box, you actually place God in yours, said lovingly of course
God places Himself in a box - the Bible, His Word. Do you believe the Bible, the 66 books, are His Word for all of mankind? If so, then my friend, that is the "box" He places Himself in for us.
i think wof teachers might have said that too???? not really sure though
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 4:00:57 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
could she posibly be a prophet? she got revelation knowledge? does she say what the bible says?
I personally know Joni and she does not hold the Office of Prophet and rejects the Latter Rain/Word of Faith belief of RHEMA (Revelation Knowledge).
And I will take this as a 'no', you should read her books and hear her testimony. Does away with the junk theology of Word of Faith charlatans that say if you're not healed it is because you're in sin and it's your fault.
That God does not want to live in a body that is blind or deaf or crippled.
< Message edited by earthless -- 4/28/2008 4:08:19 PM >
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 4:06:50 PM
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stellaluna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
The Apostle John gives us the proper perspective: “This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us - whatever we ask - we know that we have what we asked of Him” (1 John 5:14-15).
Never assume the will of God is to do what we want Him to. The "whatever we ask" part is modified by "according to His will." Not the other way around.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 4:08:04 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
The Apostle John gives us the proper perspective: “This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us - whatever we ask - we know that we have what we asked of Him” (1 John 5:14-15).
Never assume the will of God is to do what we want Him to. The "whatever we ask" part is modified by "according to His will." Not the other way around.
Amen, exactly right.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 4:11:45 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
by the signs following ie the sick being healed in the name of Jesus
Look through Paul's epsitles and see the people he encountered who were not healed. I guess they or Paul lacked the faith need for healing.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 4:20:25 PM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
matthew13:8And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
I know you're new here and based on your posts, have not bothered to read the threads you're engaging in, but I do believe in miracles and in healings for today. But God does not heal every single person today and He is not some cosmic bellhop that has to do so because we order Him to, as some indeed teach.
so is the problem with God or with the church????
Jesus healed everybody that came to him and He, Jesus, did the perfect will of God, which was healing everybody
How do you know that Jesus healed EVERYBODY? When he went to the Pool of Bethesda, how many people did he step over that needed healing?
let me rephrase that for you Jesus healed everyone that came to him to be healed, I know that because it tells me so in the b-i-b-l-e, don't get me started sighing now. did not know it said he was stepping over people at that pool, guess they just did not ask him.
I walk away for a few minutes and this conversation is in another state already! But, allow me to backtrack for a moment to this . . .
Yes, Jesus healed everyone he came to heal, but that doesn't mean he came to heal everyone.
There were many people that hung out at the Pool of Bethesda, and it only accounts Jesus having healed one. And your "did not ask him" argument isn't too strong either.
You will notice that the man that Jesus healed didn't ask Jesus to heal him. He first of whined about his condition, and then asked to be put into the pool. His faith really wasn't about Christ, it was about that pool of water.
Point being, God heals whom he sees fit to heal, all according to His good and perfect will.
< Message edited by 1love1God1way -- 4/28/2008 4:29:28 PM >
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 5:04:30 PM
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dwtramm
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I am a lurker. I just enjoy sitting back and reading the discussions here. It has been a benefit to me over the years.
But I felt I had to post just a few things, whether it gets me flamed or not.
First off, I used to be Word of Faith. I loved Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland. Watched them weekly. I also received Kenneth Hagin's Word of Faith Magazine. I pastored an A/G church for a number of years and I led them according to my Word of Faith beliefs.
I remember once trying to read Hank Hannegraaf's Christianity in Crisis. I couldn't finish the book because I felt he had evil intentions and was incorrect.
Anyway, I remember well, the first step that led me away from WOF doctrine. I was listening to Kenneth Copeland around 15 years ago or so and he was talking about Paul's thorn in the flesh. He said that when God said that His grace is sufficient for Paul, God was actually telling Paul to remove the thorn Himself. I had my Bible open at the time, reading along with him, and my eye's were opened suddenly through Scripture. Scripture doesn't say for Paul to remove it, but endure it through God's sufficient Grace!
If he was wrong there, what else was wrong. I started studying the Word of God in context, and many of my beliefs began to crumble like a house of cards, one by one.
I resigned my church, deciding to spend time in God's Word. This time was both a painful and yet rewarding time for me. Some of my beliefs were confirmed, some shattered, but God gave me new pieces to replace the false pieces of man's doctrine - the doctrine of His Word!
Anyway, long story short, I'm now pastoring again, God opening those doors. It is a non-denominational church. I guess you could call us, Reforming Charismatic. I, as well as all of us are ever learning God's wonderful Word as I endeavor to humbly teach it expositionally.
We also have struggles with WOF at the church. There are a couple at the church. They are vocal about it too. The husband quit coming to worship services because he knows I am not WOF at all. When meeting with him, he actually told me that God doesn't speak to us through the context of Scripture, but as you speak it out and it becomes a vessel that your faith can bring to reality! For me, that is scary to believe! He comes to Sunday School every now and again, and will stir up trouble with his word of faith doctrine.
I know that this is possibly a very dangerous thing to say, but I personally believe, from my own personal experience as well as the experience of others that the main problem with WOF doctrine can be explained in one word - Pride! The ones that are stirring up discension and promoting it are very prideful people.
I remember myself when I was involved with WOF that I was prideful and would question people's lack of healing, suggesting that it was sin in their life that caused it all. All I can say now is, thank God for His Grace and Mercy for me!
I recently try to pick up the book Christianity in Crisis again and read it. And again, I couldn't finish it. It was for different reasons this time. Because most of what Hank wrote was true, and when I thought about what I used to teach and believe and practice, it made me sick to my stomach!
As far as Jonie is concerned, I don't know of a greater testimony than this woman has. In the midst of horrible paralysis and pain, she glorifies the God who created her, loved her, and chose her to be a vessel of honor.
What a humble testimony that all of us, Calvinist, Pentecostal, Word of Faith, Charismatic, or whatever stripe you may call yourself can learn from.
Do I believe God heals today, absolutely. But I also don't see the apostles condemning people because of their sickness throughout the Scripture. In one place, we don't see Paul condemn Timothy for having some type of stomach disorder, but he tells him to drink some wine for the disorder.
I just thought I'd share my story of one who is a work in progress. Thanks be to God for His grace and mercy toward me.
He pulled me out of the darkness of false doctrine, and is still teaching me His wonderful Word, and may I be found hidden within His precious Word.
Back to lurking mode.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 5:04:56 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2350
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quote:
WOF worship a false god who does as they bid.
Quite true. The problem with WoF is that it is a counterfeit gospel. If one is going to counterfeit something though it is copying something that is real. There is an awful lot of real doctrine that is intertwined with WoF, that is what makes it deceptive and also dangerous.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 5:14:02 PM
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earthless
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dwtramm - God bless you mightily my brother..
flj - you are oh so correct, it's the skin of the truth stuffed with a lie. A glass of water with a few drops of poison.
And an FYI for dwtramm - 'Christianity in Crisis' is now available as an audio book that has all of the quotes from the Word of Faith preachers in their own words, via the audio. It's really helpful when you can hear it for yourself with their own words/context.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 5:18:02 PM
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dwtramm
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I've actually listened to the quotes on a few websites. I can only listened for a few minutes though, because it is difficult for me to stomach them.
I'm glad they are out there there. It reveals the error. It is my prayer that people bound up in this man made doctrine will turn to the truth of God's Word once the error is revealed.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 5:25:27 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dwtramm
I've actually listened to the quotes on a few websites. I can only listened for a few minutes though, because it is difficult for me to stomach them.
I'm glad they are out there there. It reveals the error. It is my prayer that people bound up in this man made doctrine will turn to the truth of God's Word once the error is revealed.
I wish you would post more - your personal background and knowledge would be so beneficial to many here still stuck in that movement.
God bless.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 5:36:01 PM
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rlj
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quote:
Illness, suffering, and pain are the result of our living in a cursed world - cursed because of our sin (Genesis 3:16-19; Romans 8:20-22). God’s goodness and love moved Him to provide a Savior to redeem us from the curse (1 John 4:9-10), but our ultimate redemption will not be realized until God has made a final end of sin in the world. Until that time, we are still subject to physical death.
I agree and you are correct.
quote:
If God’s love required Him to heal every disease and infirmity, then no one would ever die - because "love" would maintain everyone in perfect health. The biblical definition of love is "a sacrificial seeking what is best for the loved one."
Correct if for no other reason that in contradicts what I already agreed with you on.
quote:
What is best for us is not always physical wholeness. Paul the apostle prayed to have his "thorn in the flesh" removed, but God said, "No" because He wanted Paul to understand he didn’t need to be physically whole to experience the sustaining grace of God. Through the experience, Paul grew in humility and in the understanding of God’s mercy and power (2 Corinthians 12:7-10).
Absolutely. Look at Job.
quote:
The testimony of Joni Eareckson Tada provides a modern example of what God can do through physical tragedy. As a teenager, Joni suffered a diving accident that left her a quadriplegic. In her book Joni, she relates how she visited faith healers many times and prayed desperately for the healing which never came.
Finally, she accepted her condition as God’s will, and she writes, "The more I think about it, the more I’m convinced that God doesn’t want everyone well. He uses our problems for His glory and our good"
I had a chance to hear her speak years ago and couldn't make it. : ( I agree with you again.
quote:
Some have tried to interpret this passage as a carte blanche from Jesus promising His agreement to whatever we ask. But this is misreading Jesus’ intent.
I agree.
quote:
Notice, first, that Jesus is speaking to His apostles, and the promise is for them.
So I take it the Great Commission doesn't apply to us because Jesus was addressing the Disciples?
quote:
This indicates the basis for the apostles’ prayers, but it also implies that whatever they prayed for should be consonant with Jesus’ will. A selfish prayer, for example, or one motivated by greed, cannot be said to be prayed in Jesus’ name.
I don't think I understand this. How do you tell the will of God in every given situation so that you can pray the right way? How can you know the will of God when you only see him in part? If you know all of that why would you need to pray?
quote:
What is being said is that the foundation has been established, we have the full Word of God, and yet some today believe we are still lacking and therefore still waiting for something greater, something newer, some RHEMA.
There is nothing in the passage I quoted that has anything to do with the foundation. (1 Corinthians 13)
What you still seem unable to understand in the 1,000s of posts that you have posted is not every charismatic agrees with WoF. You still insist on lumping all of us together.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 6:01:49 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
What you still seem unable to understand in the 1,000s of posts that you have posted is not every charismatic agrees with WoF. You still insist on lumping all of us together.
Woah, what? I know not every Charismatic agrees with WoF. For my old church, which I helped pastored, has charismatics in attendance.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 6:18:32 PM
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pray4all
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
matthew13:8And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
I know you're new here and based on your posts, have not bothered to read the threads you're engaging in, but I do believe in miracles and in healings for today. But God does not heal every single person today and He is not some cosmic bellhop that has to do so because we order Him to, as some indeed teach.
so is the problem with God or with the church????
Jesus healed everybody that came to him and He, Jesus, did the perfect will of God, which was healing everybody
How do you know that Jesus healed EVERYBODY? When he went to the Pool of Bethesda, how many people did he step over that needed healing?
let me rephrase that for you Jesus healed everyone that came to him to be healed, I know that because it tells me so in the b-i-b-l-e, don't get me started sighing now. did not know it said he was stepping over people at that pool, guess they just did not ask him.
I walk away for a few minutes and this conversation is in another state already! But, allow me to backtrack for a moment to this . . .
Yes, Jesus healed everyone he came to heal, but that doesn't mean he came to heal everyone.
There were many people that hung out at the Pool of Bethesda, and it only accounts Jesus having healed one. And your "did not ask him" argument isn't too strong either.
You will notice that the man that Jesus healed didn't ask Jesus to heal him. He first of whined about his condition, and then asked to be put into the pool. His faith really wasn't about Christ, it was about that pool of water.
Point being, God heals whom he sees fit to heal, all according to His good and perfect will.
sorry you must have misread my post, i actually said "Jesus healed everyone that came to him in faith", not that jesus healed everyone he came to heal, that statment would be going outside the "bible box" people want to put God into. my bible says Jesus couldn't heal some people because of their unbeliefe.
and you are right that man had faith that God healed, in that method, through an angel who stirred the pool, and it was first come first served basis. and i don't have a problem with that it does show the will of God is to heal, the man acted in faith. dont know how many of those years he was sick he spent at that pool, but that demonstrated faith even when the odds was against him, i also noticed in that john 5:2 healing account Jesus said this to the man in 14 verse quote:
14Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee
what do you make of that????
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 6:28:46 PM
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pray4all
Posts: 345
Joined: 4/21/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dwtramm
I am a lurker. I just enjoy sitting back and reading the discussions here. It has been a benefit to me over the years.
But I felt I had to post just a few things, whether it gets me flamed or not.
First off, I used to be Word of Faith. I loved Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland. Watched them weekly. I also received Kenneth Hagin's Word of Faith Magazine. I pastored an A/G church for a number of years and I led them according to my Word of Faith beliefs.
I remember once trying to read Hank Hannegraaf's Christianity in Crisis. I couldn't finish the book because I felt he had evil intentions and was incorrect.
I resigned my church, deciding to spend time in God's Word. This time was both a painful and yet rewarding time for me. Some of my beliefs were confirmed, some shattered, but God gave me new pieces to replace the false pieces of man's doctrine - the doctrine of His Word!
Anyway, long story short, I'm now pastoring again, God opening those doors. It is a non-denominational church. I guess you could call us, Reforming Charismatic. I, as well as all of us are ever learning God's wonderful Word as I endeavor to humbly teach it expositionally.
I know that this is possibly a very dangerous thing to say, but I personally believe, from my own personal experience as well as the experience of others that the main problem with WOF doctrine can be explained in one word - Pride! The ones that are stirring up discension and promoting it are very prideful people.
I remember myself when I was involved with WOF that I was prideful and would question people's lack of healing, suggesting that it was sin in their life that caused it all. All I can say now is, thank God for His Grace and Mercy for me!
He pulled me out of the darkness of false doctrine, and is still teaching me His wonderful Word, and may I be found hidden within His precious Word.
Back to lurking mode.
i'll betta your leading an ag according to wof teaching didn't fly with ag hq.
can i ask you a straight up question, during that time period did God ever use you as a vessel to see anyone healed??
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 6:37:34 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6355
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pray4all
i'll betta your leading an ag according to wof teaching didn't fly with ag hq.
You would be surprised.. the AoG denomination does allow flexibility with the local churches. I know of many inner-city AoG that are indeed blunt Word of Faith. But also many that are doctrinally sound Pentecostal.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 6:54:06 PM
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dwtramm
Posts: 310
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Excuse me Pray4all as I don't know how to cut and paste yet.
To quickly answer your questions.
no I do not Pastor an A/G church. Like I said earlier, the church is Non-denominational.
I do not hold Papers with the A/G anymore, I haven't since 2001. And the issue wasn't wof but last days and initial evidence issues.
You are right that the A/G does have, or at least they used to anyway, position papers against it. The denominations official stance has always been one of balance considering it. I wasn't taught Wof at the A/G college I attended, it was just after I got saved, I cut my teeth on TBN. Watched it all, even went to one Benny Hinn crusade.
And while I will tell you not only from past experience, but knowing a few A/G ministers now, WOF may not be prevalent, but there are quite of few ministers within the A/G that do believe and practice WOF teaching.
I am not trying to make a sweeping charge by that statement. I personally love the A/G. My Grandfather was an A/G Pastor, as my Father, Father-in-law and my wife's Grandfather. So even though I'm no longer in it, I have deep love and affection for the people and friends who are within the movement, so please don't think of me as anti-a/g.
Your second question, "During that time period did God ever use you as a vessel to see anyone healed?"
Yes, God was gracious and I saw him heal people, to His glory and honor.
But again, during that time I was awefully prideful. Just one quick story concerning that. A Elderly lady came to a prayer line after I preached in this church as the guest speaker. She told me she had dizzy spells when she looked down and then back up quickly. I prayed for her, and then like the preachers I saw on TV, I asked her to do what she couldn't do before. When she did, she about fell over (not not in the spirit  ), but because of dizziness. I prayed for her again, rebuking the demon of dizziness. I told her to do it again, and she did and was still dizzy. Then I arrogantly told her, "You must have sin in your life, or not enough faith, come back when you have prayed through!"
Thank God He didn't strike me down on the spot.
Now let me be clear, I am not saying that all Wof teachers are as arrogant or prideful as I was. I do believe that there is an issue with pride, and circular reasoning (determining something to be true, and therefore reading into the text your belief) within the movement.
Let me also state for the record I am not speaking about anyone else's experience with the movement, only myself. I know what God did for me through His Word, and what He continues to do for His glory and honor alone.
I do hope that this answers your questions.
God bless.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2008 6:56:05 PM
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dwtramm
Posts: 310
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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I apologize pray4all you only asked one question. The first thing you said was a statement. Hopefully I was able to answer your question though.
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